14:51:43 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 14:51:43 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/26-xproc-irc 14:55:50 PGrosso has joined #xproc 14:58:10 Norm has changed the topic to: XProc telcon 26 Oct 2006: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/10/26-agenda.html 14:59:26 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 14:59:26 Date: 26 Oct 2006 14:59:26 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/10/26-agenda.html 14:59:26 Meeting: 41 14:59:26 Chair: Norm 14:59:27 Scribe: Norm 14:59:31 ScribeNick: Norm 14:59:44 zakim, this is xproc 14:59:44 ok, Norm; that matches XML_PMWG()11:00AM 14:59:52 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 15:00:05 Alessandro has joined #xproc 15:00:44 zakim, please call ht-781 15:00:47 ok, ht; the call is being made 15:00:49 -Norm 15:00:56 +Norm 15:01:06 +Ht 15:01:06 Zakim, [IP is Alessandro 15:01:12 +[ArborText] 15:01:14 +[IPcaller] 15:01:16 +Alex_Milowski 15:01:18 +Alessandro; got it 15:01:27 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:01:30 On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Ht, Alessandro, Alex_Milowski 15:01:32 +[IPcaller] 15:01:36 Zakim, [IP is me 15:01:36 +rlopes; got it 15:02:38 AndrewF has joined #xproc 15:03:16 +??P28 15:03:25 zakim, ? is AndrewF 15:03:25 +AndrewF; got it 15:04:54 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:04:54 On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Ht, Alessandro, Alex_Milowski, rlopes, AndrewF 15:05:16 Topic: Accept this agenda? 15:05:16 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/10/26-agenda.html 15:05:28 Accepted. 15:05:32 Present: Norm, Paul, Henry, Alessandro, Alex, Rui, Andrew 15:05:32 Regrets: Richard 15:05:47 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meetings? 15:05:47 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/10/12-minutes.html 15:06:01 Accepted. 15:06:02 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/10/19-minutes.html 15:06:06 Accepted. 15:06:15 Topic: Next meeting: telcon 2 Nov 2006 15:06:27 No regrets given. 15:07:32 Note that the meeting next week will be shifted one hour as the US moves to standard time. 15:08:04 Topic: Review of open action items 15:08:15 A-13-01: Continued 15:08:40 Topic: Review of 13 Oct draft 15:08:40 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langspec.html 15:09:20 Alex: Everything looks pretty good, but I'm still confused about why there's still "flow-graph" 15:09:30 q+ to support change, but comment about context contents 15:10:26 Norm: I'm willing to try to remove the flow-graph language, if that's what we like. 15:11:19 +[IPcaller] 15:11:23 Henry: The "Scoping of Names" section is an orphan now, isn't it? 15:11:23 Norm: Yes 15:11:27 -rlopes 15:11:28 Zakim, [IP is me 15:11:29 +rlopes; got it 15:11:47 Alex: We need to say somewhere that the scope of names is determined by the context. 15:11:59 Norm: I don't think we defined "context" 15:12:52 Henry: Removing "flow-graph" will probably require using subpipeline, but there's some circularity. 15:13:00 ack ht 15:13:00 ht, you wanted to support change, but comment about context contents 15:14:05 Henry: The context contains input ports that are never used or defined. 15:14:27 zakim, please call MSM-Office 15:14:27 ok, MSM; the call is being made 15:14:29 +MSM 15:14:37 q+ 15:15:02 Norm: I noticed, but didn't remove them. 15:15:07 Henry: I think we should remove them until we need them. 15:15:08 Norm: I agree. 15:16:08 ack Alessandro 15:16:10 ack alexmilowski 15:16:33 Alex: One more small thing: when we put the output ports into the context, they're a two-part name. There's the step name and the port. 15:16:47 Alex: So there's a two-part key and we need to talk about uniqueness. 15:17:37 Norm: I think it should be an error to have two steps with the same name in the same context. 15:17:55 Alex: We need to make sure that the scope of the component name is specified. 15:18:25 ACTION: Norm to remove flow-graph language 15:18:37 ACTION: Norm to make sure that the scope of component names discusses uniqueness 15:19:21 Henry: What about the parallel question for parameters? 15:19:46 ...I think for parameters, it's perfectly alright to have duplicate names and they shadow. 15:20:07 ACTION: Norm to make scope of parameter names clear. 15:20:28 Anyone object to parameter shadowing? 15:20:31 No objections. 15:21:13 We'll use the language of the 13 Oct draft moving forward. 15:21:21 Accepted. 15:21:59 Topic: Review of the alternate draft 15:22:09 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/alternate/ 15:22:45 Henry: I think we can get there, but I want to separate the question of inputs/outputs and parameters. 15:23:06 ...We distinguished between obligatory and optional parameters, and there's no place to say that now. 15:23:39 Norm: I thought parameter on declare-step-type could specify required=yes|no 15:23:50 Henry: I think I'd like to keep the names separate for that. 15:24:01 ...In any event, that attribute is missing. 15:24:14 ...And parameters are either obligatory or optional in signatures. 15:24:34 ...There's a similar problem in inputs and parameters when wildcards are used in names. 15:25:02 ...It just doesn't make any sense to use the input name="*" on an XSLT step. 15:25:35 Henry: There's a bunch more work needed there. 15:26:09 Alex: Norm, you said that import-param was available at the pipeline level. Isn't that needed only in the declaration of a component. 15:26:51 Norm: Maybe a pipeline just has param name='db:*' and not import-param 15:27:07 Henry: We do have this class of top-level pipelines and signatures. 15:27:33 Alex: If you want to support 532 parameters, you can import them (or declare them?) 15:28:22 Alex: One way to say it is that parameters that don't have values are declarations, end of story. 15:28:45 Henry: I'm not happy with that because I want to be able to express defaults in the declaration case. 15:29:56 Alex: Wildcards only apply when there's a declaration. 15:30:44 Alex: If we had a different name, then we wouldn't have to have complex co-constraints for a single element name. 15:31:06 Henry: I'm teetering back and forth two, but it is in part because parameters aren't schiziophenic in quite the same way as inputs/outputs. 15:31:24 ...Sometimes inputs are declarations *and* uses at the same time. But that's not true of parameters. 15:32:19 Henry: It's always clear from the context. 15:32:22 Alex: Could we break declarations out as their own example 15:32:29 s/example/example?/ 15:33:01 Alex: You can't use select/source/etc. with wildcards. 15:33:11 ...Describe parameter declarations and parameter uses separately. 15:33:26 Norm: I can give that a try. 15:34:02 Henry: And we agreed that you won't be able to have computed defaults for parameters, right? 15:34:22 Norm: Uhm, I think so. 15:36:55 Henry, Norm, and Alex try to make sense of this, scribe fails to capture details 15:37:29 Alex: if you have a group, a computed parameter can't point into the output of the steps 15:37:47 Henry: Norm needs to add a story for what's in context for computed parameters. 15:37:47 Alex: href is the other issue, but maybe that's not an issue. 15:38:01 Alex: If you want to compute a parameter at the pipeline level then you have to use a group. 15:40:08 Norm: Why aren't the inputs to the component available for computation of parameters? 15:40:55 Henry: There are two possibilities: across the board, for v1, no computed defaults; not for parameter declarations in signatures or pipelines. 15:41:28 Henry: Or to say that computed defaults are allowed on pipelines and the only inputs available for computation are the inputs to the pipeline. 15:42:44 Norm: I think there's a third case which is about computed values in components. 15:43:01 Henry: I want to keep the story about computed defaults and computed values very separate. 15:43:20 Alex: Maybe we should describe the contained pipeline as a group. 15:43:42 ...The context is defined by some aspect of the declarations that occur at the top level of the pipeline. 15:44:01 Henry: That's again blurring the distinction. 15:44:11 Alex: I'm not blurring, I'm trying to separate them entirely. 15:46:59 s/are allowed on pipelines/are allowed on pipelines and signatures/ 15:49:03 Norm has joined #xproc 15:49:39 Henry: Shall we ask the editor to write a new draft that clarifies the distinction between parameter declarations and parameter uses/bindings? 15:49:47 ...Allowing only static defaults. 15:50:44 Norm: The chair suggests moving on until we get a new draft. 15:51:00 Topic: Discussion of normalizing the syntax of for-each/viewport with choose/when 15:51:28 Norm: I suggested changing choose/when; Jeni suggested changing for-each/viewport. 15:52:05 Henry: I think we made the wrong choice in Ontario; but given that choice, we should distinguish between the special input from other inputs. 15:52:13 Henry: I'm reluctantly of changing for-each/viewport. 15:52:20 s/of changing/in favor of changing/ 15:52:32 Alex: I kind of like having the elements on choose/when 15:53:30 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:53:30 On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Ht, Alessandro, Alex_Milowski, AndrewF, rlopes, MSM 15:53:48 Alex: It's not a big deal to me. 15:53:51 Henry: Nor me. 15:53:57 Yes, I'm listening, but I do not have a well founded opinion on this, except that surface syntax matters. 15:54:12 so it's a big deal to me, but I don't know what to do 15:54:45 -MSM 15:54:47 Henry: I'd like Norm to write it up all attributes and see if it makes me gag. 15:55:20 Alex: We have a bunch of use cases, I wonder if we could try some of those. 15:55:28 zakim, please call MSM-Office 15:55:28 ok, MSM; the call is being made 15:55:30 Alex: It's not a clarity issue as much as a consistency issue that you could see by example better. 15:55:30 +MSM 15:56:06 ACTION: Alex to post some examples each way. 15:57:03 Topic: Any other business 15:57:36 Henry: According to W3C process, if I want to give a paper at XML 2006, I need permission of the WG. 15:57:54 Henry: I've been working on an ontology and some software to manipulate it. 15:58:38 Norm: As chair, yes, feel free. 15:59:16 Norm: In fact, our discussions are public and I'm happy to give all members carte blanche to discuss anything we've discussed provided that they do not represent as consensus that which isn't. 15:59:35 -Ht 15:59:37 -PGrosso 15:59:37 Adjourned. 15:59:38 -Norm 15:59:39 -Alessandro 15:59:41 -Alex_Milowski 15:59:42 -rlopes 15:59:44 -AndrewF 15:59:46 alexmilowski has left #xproc 15:59:47 -MSM 15:59:48 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended 15:59:49 Attendees were Norm, Ht, [IPcaller], Alex_Milowski, Alessandro, PGrosso, rlopes, AndrewF, MSM 16:00:19 MSM, I suggested to Norm you might not make next week's call, but we agreed we weren't sure either way --- you might want to let him know 16:12:41 PGrosso has left #xproc 16:38:53 Norm, no, I will be in XML Query / XSL meetings in San Jose next week, so regrets from me for next week's call 16:39:00 Ok 17:01:19 ndw_ has joined #xproc 17:01:28 zakim, who's on the phone? 17:01:28 apparently XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended, ndw_ 17:01:29 On IRC I see ndw_, Norm, RRSAgent, Zakim, ht, MSM 17:37:28 Norm has joined #xproc 18:04:36 MSM has joined #xproc 18:55:15 rrsagent, please draft minutes 18:55:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/26-xproc-minutes.html Norm 18:55:17 rrsagent, please set log world-visible 18:55:26 zakim, bye 18:55:26 Zakim has left #xproc 18:56:05 rrsagent, please draft minutes 18:56:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/26-xproc-minutes.html Norm 18:56:30 rrsagent, bye 18:56:30 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/26-xproc-actions.rdf : 18:56:30 ACTION: Norm to remove flow-graph language [1] 18:56:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/26-xproc-irc#T15-18-25 18:56:30 ACTION: Norm to make sure that the scope of component names discusses uniqueness [2] 18:56:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/26-xproc-irc#T15-18-37 18:56:30 ACTION: Norm to make scope of parameter names clear. [3] 18:56:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/26-xproc-irc#T15-20-07 18:56:30 ACTION: Alex to post some examples each way. [4] 18:56:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/26-xproc-irc#T15-56-06