IRC log of xproc on 2006-10-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:43 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:55:50 [PGrosso]
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14:58:10 [Norm]
Norm has changed the topic to: XProc telcon 26 Oct 2006:
14:59:26 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
14:59:26 [Norm]
Date: 26 Oct 2006
14:59:26 [Norm]
14:59:26 [Norm]
Meeting: 41
14:59:26 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
14:59:27 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
14:59:31 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
14:59:44 [Norm]
zakim, this is xproc
14:59:44 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; that matches XML_PMWG()11:00AM
14:59:52 [alexmilowski]
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15:00:05 [Alessandro]
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15:00:44 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
15:00:47 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
15:00:49 [Zakim]
15:00:56 [Zakim]
15:01:06 [Zakim]
15:01:06 [Alessandro]
Zakim, [IP is Alessandro
15:01:12 [Zakim]
15:01:14 [Zakim]
15:01:16 [Zakim]
15:01:18 [Zakim]
+Alessandro; got it
15:01:27 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Ht, Alessandro, Alex_Milowski
15:01:32 [Zakim]
15:01:36 [rlopes]
Zakim, [IP is me
15:01:36 [Zakim]
+rlopes; got it
15:02:38 [AndrewF]
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15:03:16 [Zakim]
15:03:25 [AndrewF]
zakim, ? is AndrewF
15:03:25 [Zakim]
+AndrewF; got it
15:04:54 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Ht, Alessandro, Alex_Milowski, rlopes, AndrewF
15:05:16 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:05:16 [Norm]
15:05:28 [Norm]
15:05:32 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Paul, Henry, Alessandro, Alex, Rui, Andrew
15:05:32 [Norm]
Regrets: Richard
15:05:47 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meetings?
15:05:47 [Norm]
15:06:01 [Norm]
15:06:02 [Norm]
15:06:06 [Norm]
15:06:15 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 2 Nov 2006
15:06:27 [Norm]
No regrets given.
15:07:32 [Norm]
Note that the meeting next week will be shifted one hour as the US moves to standard time.
15:08:04 [Norm]
Topic: Review of open action items
15:08:15 [Norm]
A-13-01: Continued
15:08:40 [Norm]
Topic: Review of 13 Oct draft
15:08:40 [Norm]
15:09:20 [Norm]
Alex: Everything looks pretty good, but I'm still confused about why there's still "flow-graph"
15:09:30 [ht]
q+ to support change, but comment about context contents
15:10:26 [Norm]
Norm: I'm willing to try to remove the flow-graph language, if that's what we like.
15:11:19 [Zakim]
15:11:23 [Norm]
Henry: The "Scoping of Names" section is an orphan now, isn't it?
15:11:23 [Norm]
Norm: Yes
15:11:27 [Zakim]
15:11:28 [rlopes]
Zakim, [IP is me
15:11:29 [Zakim]
+rlopes; got it
15:11:47 [Norm]
Alex: We need to say somewhere that the scope of names is determined by the context.
15:11:59 [Norm]
Norm: I don't think we defined "context"
15:12:52 [Norm]
Henry: Removing "flow-graph" will probably require using subpipeline, but there's some circularity.
15:13:00 [Norm]
ack ht
15:13:00 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to support change, but comment about context contents
15:14:05 [Norm]
Henry: The context contains input ports that are never used or defined.
15:14:27 [MSM]
zakim, please call MSM-Office
15:14:27 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
15:14:29 [Zakim]
15:14:37 [alexmilowski]
15:15:02 [Norm]
Norm: I noticed, but didn't remove them.
15:15:07 [Norm]
Henry: I think we should remove them until we need them.
15:15:08 [Norm]
Norm: I agree.
15:16:08 [Norm]
ack Alessandro
15:16:10 [Norm]
ack alexmilowski
15:16:33 [Norm]
Alex: One more small thing: when we put the output ports into the context, they're a two-part name. There's the step name and the port.
15:16:47 [Norm]
Alex: So there's a two-part key and we need to talk about uniqueness.
15:17:37 [Norm]
Norm: I think it should be an error to have two steps with the same name in the same context.
15:17:55 [Norm]
Alex: We need to make sure that the scope of the component name is specified.
15:18:25 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to remove flow-graph language
15:18:37 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to make sure that the scope of component names discusses uniqueness
15:19:21 [Norm]
Henry: What about the parallel question for parameters?
15:19:46 [Norm]
...I think for parameters, it's perfectly alright to have duplicate names and they shadow.
15:20:07 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to make scope of parameter names clear.
15:20:28 [Norm]
Anyone object to parameter shadowing?
15:20:31 [Norm]
No objections.
15:21:13 [Norm]
We'll use the language of the 13 Oct draft moving forward.
15:21:21 [Norm]
15:21:59 [Norm]
Topic: Review of the alternate draft
15:22:09 [Norm]
15:22:45 [Norm]
Henry: I think we can get there, but I want to separate the question of inputs/outputs and parameters.
15:23:06 [Norm]
...We distinguished between obligatory and optional parameters, and there's no place to say that now.
15:23:39 [Norm]
Norm: I thought parameter on declare-step-type could specify required=yes|no
15:23:50 [Norm]
Henry: I think I'd like to keep the names separate for that.
15:24:01 [Norm]
...In any event, that attribute is missing.
15:24:14 [Norm]
...And parameters are either obligatory or optional in signatures.
15:24:34 [Norm]
...There's a similar problem in inputs and parameters when wildcards are used in names.
15:25:02 [Norm]
...It just doesn't make any sense to use the input name="*" on an XSLT step.
15:25:35 [Norm]
Henry: There's a bunch more work needed there.
15:26:09 [Norm]
Alex: Norm, you said that import-param was available at the pipeline level. Isn't that needed only in the declaration of a component.
15:26:51 [Norm]
Norm: Maybe a pipeline just has param name='db:*' and not import-param
15:27:07 [Norm]
Henry: We do have this class of top-level pipelines and signatures.
15:27:33 [Norm]
Alex: If you want to support 532 parameters, you can import them (or declare them?)
15:28:22 [Norm]
Alex: One way to say it is that parameters that don't have values are declarations, end of story.
15:28:45 [Norm]
Henry: I'm not happy with that because I want to be able to express defaults in the declaration case.
15:29:56 [Norm]
Alex: Wildcards only apply when there's a declaration.
15:30:44 [Norm]
Alex: If we had a different name, then we wouldn't have to have complex co-constraints for a single element name.
15:31:06 [Norm]
Henry: I'm teetering back and forth two, but it is in part because parameters aren't schiziophenic in quite the same way as inputs/outputs.
15:31:24 [Norm]
...Sometimes inputs are declarations *and* uses at the same time. But that's not true of parameters.
15:32:19 [Norm]
Henry: It's always clear from the context.
15:32:22 [Norm]
Alex: Could we break declarations out as their own example
15:32:29 [Norm]
15:33:01 [Norm]
Alex: You can't use select/source/etc. with wildcards.
15:33:11 [Norm]
...Describe parameter declarations and parameter uses separately.
15:33:26 [Norm]
Norm: I can give that a try.
15:34:02 [Norm]
Henry: And we agreed that you won't be able to have computed defaults for parameters, right?
15:34:22 [Norm]
Norm: Uhm, I think so.
15:36:55 [Norm]
Henry, Norm, and Alex try to make sense of this, scribe fails to capture details
15:37:29 [Norm]
Alex: if you have a group, a computed parameter can't point into the output of the steps
15:37:47 [Norm]
Henry: Norm needs to add a story for what's in context for computed parameters.
15:37:47 [Norm]
Alex: href is the other issue, but maybe that's not an issue.
15:38:01 [Norm]
Alex: If you want to compute a parameter at the pipeline level then you have to use a group.
15:40:08 [Norm]
Norm: Why aren't the inputs to the component available for computation of parameters?
15:40:55 [Norm]
Henry: There are two possibilities: across the board, for v1, no computed defaults; not for parameter declarations in signatures or pipelines.
15:41:28 [Norm]
Henry: Or to say that computed defaults are allowed on pipelines and the only inputs available for computation are the inputs to the pipeline.
15:42:44 [Norm]
Norm: I think there's a third case which is about computed values in components.
15:43:01 [Norm]
Henry: I want to keep the story about computed defaults and computed values very separate.
15:43:20 [Norm]
Alex: Maybe we should describe the contained pipeline as a group.
15:43:42 [Norm]
...The context is defined by some aspect of the declarations that occur at the top level of the pipeline.
15:44:01 [Norm]
Henry: That's again blurring the distinction.
15:44:11 [Norm]
Alex: I'm not blurring, I'm trying to separate them entirely.
15:46:59 [ht]
s/are allowed on pipelines/are allowed on pipelines and signatures/
15:49:03 [Norm]
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15:49:39 [Norm]
Henry: Shall we ask the editor to write a new draft that clarifies the distinction between parameter declarations and parameter uses/bindings?
15:49:47 [Norm]
...Allowing only static defaults.
15:50:44 [Norm]
Norm: The chair suggests moving on until we get a new draft.
15:51:00 [Norm]
Topic: Discussion of normalizing the syntax of for-each/viewport with choose/when
15:51:28 [Norm]
Norm: I suggested changing choose/when; Jeni suggested changing for-each/viewport.
15:52:05 [Norm]
Henry: I think we made the wrong choice in Ontario; but given that choice, we should distinguish between the special input from other inputs.
15:52:13 [Norm]
Henry: I'm reluctantly of changing for-each/viewport.
15:52:20 [Norm]
s/of changing/in favor of changing/
15:52:32 [Norm]
Alex: I kind of like having the elements on choose/when
15:53:30 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:53:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Ht, Alessandro, Alex_Milowski, AndrewF, rlopes, MSM
15:53:48 [Norm]
Alex: It's not a big deal to me.
15:53:51 [Norm]
Henry: Nor me.
15:53:57 [MSM]
Yes, I'm listening, but I do not have a well founded opinion on this, except that surface syntax matters.
15:54:12 [MSM]
so it's a big deal to me, but I don't know what to do
15:54:45 [Zakim]
15:54:47 [Norm]
Henry: I'd like Norm to write it up all attributes and see if it makes me gag.
15:55:20 [Norm]
Alex: We have a bunch of use cases, I wonder if we could try some of those.
15:55:28 [MSM]
zakim, please call MSM-Office
15:55:28 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
15:55:30 [Norm]
Alex: It's not a clarity issue as much as a consistency issue that you could see by example better.
15:55:30 [Zakim]
15:56:06 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to post some examples each way.
15:57:03 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business
15:57:36 [Norm]
Henry: According to W3C process, if I want to give a paper at XML 2006, I need permission of the WG.
15:57:54 [Norm]
Henry: I've been working on an ontology and some software to manipulate it.
15:58:38 [Norm]
Norm: As chair, yes, feel free.
15:59:16 [Norm]
Norm: In fact, our discussions are public and I'm happy to give all members carte blanche to discuss anything we've discussed provided that they do not represent as consensus that which isn't.
15:59:35 [Zakim]
15:59:37 [Zakim]
15:59:37 [Norm]
15:59:38 [Zakim]
15:59:39 [Zakim]
15:59:41 [Zakim]
15:59:42 [Zakim]
15:59:44 [Zakim]
15:59:46 [alexmilowski]
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15:59:47 [Zakim]
15:59:48 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
15:59:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, Ht, [IPcaller], Alex_Milowski, Alessandro, PGrosso, rlopes, AndrewF, MSM
16:00:19 [ht]
MSM, I suggested to Norm you might not make next week's call, but we agreed we weren't sure either way --- you might want to let him know
16:12:41 [PGrosso]
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16:38:53 [MSM]
Norm, no, I will be in XML Query / XSL meetings in San Jose next week, so regrets from me for next week's call
16:39:00 [Norm]
17:01:19 [ndw_]
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17:01:28 [ndw_]
zakim, who's on the phone?
17:01:28 [Zakim]
apparently XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended, ndw_
17:01:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ndw_, Norm, RRSAgent, Zakim, ht, MSM
17:37:28 [Norm]
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18:04:36 [MSM]
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18:55:15 [Norm]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
18:55:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
18:55:17 [Norm]
rrsagent, please set log world-visible
18:55:26 [Norm]
zakim, bye
18:55:26 [Zakim]
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18:56:05 [Norm]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
18:56:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
18:56:30 [Norm]
rrsagent, bye
18:56:30 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in :
18:56:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Norm to remove flow-graph language [1]
18:56:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:56:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Norm to make sure that the scope of component names discusses uniqueness [2]
18:56:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:56:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Norm to make scope of parameter names clear. [3]
18:56:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:56:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alex to post some examples each way. [4]
18:56:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in