IRC log of i18ncore on 2006-10-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:42:07 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #i18ncore

13:42:07 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc

13:42:14 [fsasaki]

meeting: i18n core WG

13:42:17 [fsasaki]

chair: Francois

13:42:19 [fsasaki]

scribe: Felix

13:42:23 [fsasaki]

scribeNick: fsasaki

13:42:32 [fsasaki]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Oct/0011.html

13:42:41 [fsasaki]

rrsagent, make log public

14:00:48 [Zakim]

I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started

14:00:51 [Zakim]

+Felix

14:01:24 [fyergeau]

fyergeau has joined #i18ncore

14:01:50 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:01:51 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller]

14:01:55 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:03:55 [fsasaki]

topic: minutes

14:04:00 [fsasaki]

Francois: approved

14:04:03 [fsasaki]

topic: actions

14:04:36 [fsasaki]

action: everybody to look for issues in http://www.w3.org/TR/timezone (ONGOING)

14:04:47 [fsasaki]

input from Felix at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Oct/0014.html

14:06:42 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

14:07:10 [fsasaki]

Francois: not clear what the difference between "UTC offset" and "zone offset"

14:07:14 [fsasaki]

Felix: it's the same

14:08:04 [fsasaki]

Francois: maybe Mark has something to say on this

14:08:11 [fsasaki]

.. let's wait a week or so

14:08:36 [fsasaki]

action: Felix to look for possible participants for the ws i18n work (ONGOING)

14:12:00 [Zakim]

+??P25

14:12:16 [fyergeau]

zakim, ? is Mark

14:12:16 [Zakim]

+Mark; got it

14:15:08 [fsasaki]

Felix to write a mail about possibility for SVG tiny specific IRI tests to martin and the i18n core list (ONGOING)

14:15:23 [fsasaki]

action: Felix to write a mail about possibility for SVG tiny specific IRI tests to martin and the i18n core list (ONGOING)

14:15:44 [fsasaki]

mail about the talk with Chris http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2006OctDec/0010.html

14:16:50 [fsasaki]

action: Francois to give input to wiki for the LTLI summary (ONGOING)

14:17:02 [fsasaki]

action: Francois to reply to Schema WG on normalization issue. (PENDING)

14:17:12 [fsasaki]

action: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (ONGOING)

14:17:22 [fsasaki]

action: Felix to update the review radar (DONE)

14:17:31 [fsasaki]

topic: LTLI discussion

14:19:26 [fsasaki]

editor's copy at http://www.w3.org/International/core/langtags/

14:22:43 [mark]

mark has joined #i18ncore

14:22:54 [fyergeau]

http://www.w3.org/International/core/langtags

14:23:31 [fsasaki]

francois: language identification part is fine

14:23:39 [fsasaki]

.. needs updating for the RFCs

14:24:28 [fsasaki]

mark: the pointer to BCP 47 , you have to be careful

14:25:07 [fsasaki]

.. you only get to a part of the BCP. Send a note to the RFC-editor that there should be a pointer for both RFCs

14:26:13 [fsasaki]

action: Felix to send a note to the RFC editor on the reference to the location of BCP 47 - RFCs

14:26:25 [mark]

http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/bcp/bcp47.txt

14:27:49 [fsasaki]

mark: this link leads not to the matching part. in the LTLI draft, there is a different link ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/bcp/bcp47.txt

14:28:26 [fsasaki]

francois: which one is the offical one?

14:28:33 [fsasaki]

mark: not sure

14:29:58 [fsasaki]

francois: we can update the entry in the LTLI draft

14:30:02 [fsasaki]

felix: I'll do

14:30:19 [fsasaki]

francois: the parts on language identification is fine

14:30:27 [fsasaki]

.. we have more work as we work at locales

14:32:47 [fsasaki]

felix: is it still o.k. to concentrate on best practices for "language versus locale", and not define the field values like CLDR?

14:32:50 [fsasaki]

mark: yes

14:33:17 [fsasaki]

francois: LTLI should give recommendations how to specify locales on the web, kind of "best practices"

14:34:09 [fsasaki]

Mary: in some cases encoding was part of a locale

14:34:16 [fsasaki]

Francois: in posix, but that was not good

14:34:32 [fsasaki]

.. this could be a subject we could address

14:36:04 [fsasaki]

discussion on various locale models

14:36:23 [mark]

---------- Forwarded message ----------

14:36:27 [fsasaki]

mark: java and cldr are almost centered on language

14:36:46 [fsasaki]

s/centered/purely/

14:38:01 [fsasaki]

felix: besides "locale versus language", how about matching? should LTLI talk about it?

14:38:05 [fsasaki]

mark: could be

14:38:36 [fsasaki]

.. as Richard pointed out, many people put in some language information not exactly

14:38:52 [fsasaki]

.. we did a search what people put in accept-lang , and it is a mess

14:39:10 [fsasaki]

.. e.g. many people put in the underbar instead of a dash

14:39:25 [fsasaki]

.. we would canonicalize those

14:39:56 [fsasaki]

.. the use of xml:lang or lang as attributes gets even worse

14:40:22 [fsasaki]

felix: a kind of BP for matching in e.g. http and xml?

14:40:44 [fsasaki]

mark: bp for receivers / senders

14:42:34 [fsasaki]

francois notes IE7 and language negotiation

14:42:49 [fsasaki]

mark: it is extremly fuzzy what a "locale" means

14:43:09 [fsasaki]

.. does "en-US" means my citizenship? the place I am on vacation?

14:43:28 [fsasaki]

francois: agree, but the language tag received from a browser is not from where you are travelling

14:43:53 [fsasaki]

mark: it is the language of my browser setting

14:45:01 [fsasaki]

.. there is nothing we can do to influence people to set up their browser

14:45:27 [fsasaki]

francois: people will not read the w3c spec and set up their browser

14:45:36 [fsasaki]

mark: we do language detection on documents

14:45:49 [fsasaki]

.. we don't rely on the tags

14:46:02 [fsasaki]

.. that includes both xml:lang and the http header

14:46:20 [fsasaki]

.. there is a lot of material mistagged

14:48:05 [fsasaki]

.. going back to locale:

14:48:33 [fsasaki]

.. I would recommend BP for a user should do , a browser / UA, a server, a receipient

14:48:52 [fsasaki]

felix: sounds good

14:49:04 [fsasaki]

francois: on web applications

14:49:18 [fsasaki]

.. which resemble more desctop applications than web pages

14:50:14 [fsasaki]

.. for whose, we need to describe how an application could gather the information

14:51:07 [fsasaki]

mark: at least make the relationship between language and locale clearer would be good

14:51:30 [fsasaki]

.. we don't want to say too much on how locales are used

14:51:34 [fsasaki]

francois: I agree

14:51:52 [fsasaki]

.. let's just say "it varies", and the application needs to find out how to deal with it

14:52:22 [fsasaki]

.. we will end up with examples saying e..g "the country is not everything!"

14:52:42 [fsasaki]

.. if a user contacts a server, there is an initial request

14:52:58 [fsasaki]

.. you have to start from that point and use the right language

14:53:07 [fsasaki]

.. the language again is in the center

14:53:19 [fsasaki]

mark: language is the core of any notion of locale

14:53:55 [fsasaki]

francois: is there any other stuff than language which is always available?

14:55:10 [fsasaki]

topic: idna issue

14:55:34 [fsasaki]

mark: I looked it over

14:55:52 [fsasaki]

.. the klensin document was seriously flawed

14:57:19 [fsasaki]

felix: we could reply as a group, or as w3c liaison

14:57:45 [fsasaki]

mark: I would suggest i18n core looks over the proposal, and w3c sees if you reply as liaison to ietf

14:58:09 [fsasaki]

francois: why are they excluding so much?

14:58:34 [fsasaki]

mark: the ietf draft is very suspicious on combining characters. you can't write e.g. indic language without these

14:58:50 [fsasaki]

.. the approach is very euro centric

14:59:50 [fsasaki]

francois: is the appraoch in principle o.k., i.e. to say what is included, and not what is excluded?

15:00:09 [fsasaki]

mark: at least the unicode identifiers should be available

15:01:45 [fsasaki]

.. they are removing lots of stuff in response to not clearly defined problems

15:02:12 [fsasaki]

francois: the underlying problem is security, right?

15:02:40 [fsasaki]

mark: excluding symbols like a "heart" does not help security

15:04:42 [Zakim]

-Mark

15:05:34 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki

15:05:39 [Zakim]

-fyergeau

15:05:41 [Zakim]

-[IBM]

15:05:43 [Zakim]

-Felix

15:05:45 [Zakim]

I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended

15:05:49 [Zakim]

Attendees were Felix, [IPcaller], fyergeau, [IBM], Mark

15:06:02 [fsasaki]

present: Felix, Francois, Mark, Mary

15:06:17 [fsasaki]

regrets: Karunesh, Richard, Vijay

15:06:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-actions.rdf :

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: everybody to look for issues in http://www.w3.org/TR/timezone (ONGOING) [1]

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-04-36

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to look for possible participants for the ws i18n work (ONGOING) [2]

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-08-36

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to write a mail about possibility for SVG tiny specific IRI tests to martin and the i18n core list (ONGOING) [3]

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-15-23

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Francois to give input to wiki for the LTLI summary (ONGOING) [4]

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-16-50

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Francois to reply to Schema WG on normalization issue. (PENDING) [5]

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-17-02

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (ONGOING) [6]

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-17-12

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to update the review radar (DONE) [7]

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-17-22

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to send a note to the RFC editor on the reference to the location of BCP 47 - RFCs [8]

15:09:04 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-26-13