13:42:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18ncore
13:42:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc
13:42:14 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n core WG
13:42:17 <fsasaki> chair: Francois
13:42:19 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
13:42:23 <fsasaki> scribeNick: fsasaki
13:42:32 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Oct/0011.html
13:42:41 <fsasaki> rrsagent, make log public
14:00:48 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
14:00:51 <Zakim> +Felix
14:01:24 <fyergeau> fyergeau has joined #i18ncore
14:01:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:01:51 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
14:01:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:03:55 <fsasaki> topic: minutes
14:04:00 <fsasaki> Francois: approved
14:04:03 <fsasaki> topic: actions
14:04:36 <fsasaki> action: everybody to look for issues in http://www.w3.org/TR/timezone (ONGOING)
14:04:47 <fsasaki> input from Felix at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Oct/0014.html
14:06:42 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:07:10 <fsasaki> Francois: not clear what the difference between "UTC offset" and "zone offset"
14:07:14 <fsasaki> Felix: it's the same
14:08:04 <fsasaki> Francois: maybe Mark has something to say on this
14:08:11 <fsasaki> .. let's wait a week or so
14:08:36 <fsasaki> action:  Felix to look for possible participants for the ws i18n work (ONGOING)
14:12:00 <Zakim> +??P25
14:12:16 <fyergeau> zakim, ? is Mark
14:12:16 <Zakim> +Mark; got it
14:15:08 <fsasaki> Felix to write a mail about possibility for SVG tiny specific IRI tests to martin and the i18n core list (ONGOING)
14:15:23 <fsasaki> action: Felix to write a mail about possibility for SVG tiny specific IRI tests to martin and the i18n core list (ONGOING)
14:15:44 <fsasaki> mail about the talk with Chris http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2006OctDec/0010.html
14:16:50 <fsasaki> action: Francois to give input to wiki for the LTLI summary (ONGOING)
14:17:02 <fsasaki> action: Francois to reply to Schema WG on normalization issue. (PENDING)
14:17:12 <fsasaki> action: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (ONGOING)
14:17:22 <fsasaki> action: Felix to update the review radar (DONE)
14:17:31 <fsasaki> topic: LTLI discussion
14:19:26 <fsasaki> editor's copy at http://www.w3.org/International/core/langtags/
14:22:43 <mark> mark has joined #i18ncore
14:22:54 <fyergeau> http://www.w3.org/International/core/langtags
14:23:31 <fsasaki> francois: language identification part is fine
14:23:39 <fsasaki> .. needs updating for the RFCs
14:24:28 <fsasaki> mark: the pointer to BCP 47 , you have to be careful
14:25:07 <fsasaki> .. you only get to a part of the BCP. Send a note to the RFC-editor that there should be a pointer for both RFCs
14:26:13 <fsasaki> action: Felix to send a note to the RFC editor on the reference to the location of BCP 47 - RFCs
14:26:25 <mark> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/bcp/bcp47.txt
14:27:49 <fsasaki> mark: this link leads not to the matching part. in the LTLI draft, there is a different link ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/bcp/bcp47.txt
14:28:26 <fsasaki> francois: which one is the offical one?
14:28:33 <fsasaki> mark: not sure
14:29:58 <fsasaki> francois: we can update the entry in the LTLI draft
14:30:02 <fsasaki> felix: I'll do
14:30:19 <fsasaki> francois: the parts on language identification is fine
14:30:27 <fsasaki> .. we have more work as we work at locales
14:32:47 <fsasaki> felix: is it still o.k. to concentrate on best practices for "language versus locale", and not define the field values like CLDR?
14:32:50 <fsasaki> mark: yes
14:33:17 <fsasaki> francois: LTLI should give recommendations how to specify locales on the web, kind of "best practices"
14:34:09 <fsasaki> Mary: in some cases encoding was part of a locale
14:34:16 <fsasaki> Francois: in posix, but that was not good
14:34:32 <fsasaki> .. this could be a subject we could address
14:36:04 <fsasaki> discussion on various locale models
14:36:23 <mark> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
14:36:27 <fsasaki> mark: java and cldr are almost centered on language
14:36:46 <fsasaki> s/centered/purely/
14:38:01 <fsasaki> felix: besides "locale versus language", how about matching? should LTLI talk about it?
14:38:05 <fsasaki> mark: could be
14:38:36 <fsasaki> .. as Richard pointed out, many people put in some language information not exactly
14:38:52 <fsasaki> .. we did a search what people put in accept-lang , and it is a mess
14:39:10 <fsasaki> .. e.g. many people put in the underbar instead of a dash
14:39:25 <fsasaki> ..  we would canonicalize those
14:39:56 <fsasaki> .. the use of xml:lang or lang as attributes gets even worse
14:40:22 <fsasaki> felix: a kind of BP for matching in e.g. http and xml?
14:40:44 <fsasaki> mark: bp for receivers / senders
14:42:34 <fsasaki> francois notes IE7 and language negotiation
14:42:49 <fsasaki> mark: it is extremly fuzzy what a "locale" means
14:43:09 <fsasaki> .. does "en-US" means my citizenship? the place I am on vacation?
14:43:28 <fsasaki> francois: agree, but the language tag received from a browser is not from where you are travelling
14:43:53 <fsasaki> mark: it is the language of my browser setting
14:45:01 <fsasaki> .. there is nothing we can do to influence people to set up their browser
14:45:27 <fsasaki> francois: people will not read the w3c spec and set up their browser
14:45:36 <fsasaki> mark: we do language detection on documents
14:45:49 <fsasaki> .. we don't rely on the tags
14:46:02 <fsasaki> .. that includes both xml:lang and the http header
14:46:20 <fsasaki> .. there is a lot of material mistagged
14:48:05 <fsasaki> .. going back to locale: 
14:48:33 <fsasaki> .. I would recommend BP for a user should do , a browser / UA, a server, a receipient
14:48:52 <fsasaki> felix: sounds good
14:49:04 <fsasaki> francois: on web applications
14:49:18 <fsasaki> .. which resemble more desctop applications than web pages
14:50:14 <fsasaki> .. for whose, we need to describe how an application could gather the information
14:51:07 <fsasaki> mark: at least make the relationship between language and locale clearer would be good
14:51:30 <fsasaki> .. we don't want to say too much on how locales are used
14:51:34 <fsasaki> francois: I agree
14:51:52 <fsasaki> .. let's just say "it varies", and the application needs to find out how to deal with it
14:52:22 <fsasaki> .. we will end up with examples saying e..g "the country is not everything!"
14:52:42 <fsasaki> .. if a user contacts a server, there is an initial request
14:52:58 <fsasaki> .. you have to start from that point and use the right language
14:53:07 <fsasaki> .. the language again is in the center
14:53:19 <fsasaki> mark: language is the core of any notion of locale
14:53:55 <fsasaki> francois: is there any other stuff than language which is always available?
14:55:10 <fsasaki> topic: idna issue
14:55:34 <fsasaki> mark: I looked it over
14:55:52 <fsasaki> .. the klensin document was seriously flawed
14:57:19 <fsasaki> felix: we could reply as a group, or as w3c liaison
14:57:45 <fsasaki> mark: I would suggest i18n core looks over the proposal, and w3c sees if you reply as liaison to ietf
14:58:09 <fsasaki> francois: why are they excluding so much?
14:58:34 <fsasaki> mark: the ietf draft is very suspicious on combining characters. you can't write e.g. indic language without these
14:58:50 <fsasaki> .. the approach is very euro centric
14:59:50 <fsasaki> francois: is the appraoch in principle o.k., i.e. to say what is included, and not what is excluded?
15:00:09 <fsasaki> mark: at least the unicode identifiers should be available
15:01:45 <fsasaki> .. they are removing lots of stuff in response to not clearly defined problems
15:02:12 <fsasaki> francois: the underlying problem is security, right?
15:02:40 <fsasaki> mark: excluding symbols like a "heart" does not help security
15:04:42 <Zakim> -Mark
15:05:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
15:05:39 <Zakim> -fyergeau
15:05:41 <Zakim> -[IBM]
15:05:43 <Zakim> -Felix
15:05:45 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
15:05:49 <Zakim> Attendees were Felix, [IPcaller], fyergeau, [IBM], Mark
15:06:02 <fsasaki> present: Felix, Francois, Mark, Mary
15:06:17 <fsasaki> regrets: Karunesh, Richard, Vijay
15:06:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
15:09:04 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-actions.rdf :
15:09:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: everybody to look for issues in http://www.w3.org/TR/timezone (ONGOING) [1]
15:09:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-04-36
15:09:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix to look for possible participants for the ws i18n work (ONGOING) [2]
15:09:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-08-36
15:09:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix to write a mail about possibility for SVG tiny specific IRI tests to martin and the i18n core list (ONGOING) [3]
15:09:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-15-23
15:09:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Francois to give input to wiki for the LTLI summary (ONGOING) [4]
15:09:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-16-50
15:09:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Francois to reply to Schema WG on normalization issue. (PENDING) [5]
15:09:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-17-02
15:09:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (ONGOING) [6]
15:09:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-17-12
15:09:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix to update the review radar (DONE) [7]
15:09:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-17-22
15:09:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix to send a note to the RFC editor on the reference to the location of BCP 47 - RFCs [8]
15:09:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-i18ncore-irc#T14-26-13