14:26:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:26:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-dawg-irc
14:26:20 <kendallclark> zakim, this  will be dawg
14:26:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this  will be dawg', kendallclark
14:26:25 <kendallclark> zakim, this will be dawg
14:26:25 <Zakim> ok, kendallclark; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:26:32 <AndyS> Be back in a moment
14:26:34 <AndyS> AndyS has left #dawg
14:26:34 <LeeF> zakim, it's an extra space character, don't be such a stickler
14:26:34 <Zakim> I don't understand you, LeeF
14:26:37 <kendallclark> zakim, you are one picky bot
14:26:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you are one picky bot', kendallclark
14:26:47 <kendallclark> zakim, anything
14:26:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'anything', kendallclark
14:26:50 <kendallclark> I know.
14:27:08 <kendallclark> zakim, how my bottish life can be so meaningless.
14:27:08 <Zakim> I don't understand you, kendallclark
14:27:13 <kendallclark> heh!!
14:27:15 <kendallclark> nice
14:27:17 <LeeF> oo, he got you good
14:27:48 <kendallclark> agenda+ convene, agenda comments, roll call, minutes, next meeting, recruit scribe
14:27:54 <kendallclark> agenda+ action items
14:28:02 <kendallclark> agenda+ expressions in select
14:28:17 <kendallclark> agenda+ scope of filter
14:28:28 <patH> patH has joined #dawg
14:28:33 <kendallclark> agenda+ operational definition of SPARQL algebra
14:28:36 <LeeF> zakim, passcode?
14:28:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 7333 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), LeeF
14:28:40 <kendallclark> hmm, that's enough for now, I think
14:28:53 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:29:00 <Zakim> +[IBMCambridge]
14:29:13 <Zakim> +PatH
14:29:16 <Zakim> -[IBMCambridge]
14:29:18 <Zakim> +[IBMCambridge]
14:29:47 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:29:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IBMCambridge], PatH
14:30:16 <LeeF> zakim, IBMCambridge is LeeF
14:30:16 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:31:01 <LeeF> Scribe: LeeF
14:31:03 <LeeF> Chair: kendallclark
14:31:09 <LeeF> Meeting: RDF DAWG Weekly
14:31:17 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #dawg
14:31:32 <kendallclark> feeling sick today, moving slowly
14:31:51 <LeeF> Regrets: SteveH
14:32:01 <Zakim> +??P28
14:32:04 <kendallclark> Regrets: FredZ too
14:32:05 <AndyS> zakim, ??P28 is me
14:32:05 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:32:06 <LeeF> Present: kendallclark, LeeF, PatH, AndyS
14:32:10 <LeeF> Regrets +FredZ
14:32:29 <kendallclark> hmm, /me locked out...
14:32:34 <Zakim> +Kendall_Clark
14:32:53 <LeeF> Regrets +EricP
14:33:11 <Zakim> +??P29
14:33:14 <Zakim> -PatH
14:33:25 <SimonR> Zakim, ??P29 is SimonR
14:33:25 <Zakim> +SimonR; got it
14:33:25 <kendallclark> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:33:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, SimonR
14:33:33 <LeeF> Present +SimonR
14:33:36 <Zakim> +PatH
14:34:12 <kendallclark> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0090.html
14:34:29 <LeeF> Present +EliasT
14:34:44 <LeeF> Agenda is swell. Let's do it.
14:35:38 <AndyS> Can't anyone can email the list (as Henry demo'ed!)
14:35:45 <LeeF> No minutes public yet from last week, we'll approve them next week
14:37:25 <LeeF> Daylight time changes before next meeting -- for now we'll keep the meeting at 14:30Z
14:37:33 <LeeF> Next meeting: October 31, 14:30Z
14:38:29 <LeeF> AndyS: not available the week of the 7th (ISWC) but available the 14th
14:38:39 <LeeF> LeeF: availble the 7th but not the 14th (SWEO IG F2F)
14:38:46 <LeeF> PatH: available
14:39:01 <LeeF> EliasT: available both
14:39:15 <LeeF> AndyS: EricP probably not available on the 14th
14:39:19 <LeeF> kendallclark: available both
14:39:27 <LeeF> we'll probably meet both dates even with small crews
14:40:04 <LeeF> Next meeting: October 31, 14:30Z, AndyS to scribe
14:40:06 <kendallclark> zakim, take up next agendum
14:40:06 <Zakim> agendum 1. "convene, agenda comments, roll call, minutes, next meeting, recruit scribe" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:40:14 <kendallclark> zakim, close agendum 1
14:40:14 <Zakim> agendum 1, convene, agenda comments, roll call, minutes, next meeting, recruit scribe, closed
14:40:15 <kendallclark> zakim, take up next agendum
14:40:16 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:40:17 <Zakim> 2. action items [from kendallclark]
14:40:19 <Zakim> agendum 2. "action items" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:40:49 <LeeF> ACTION: FredZ to repost pointers to previous arguments for curlies on  OPTIZONAL LHS [DONE]
14:41:03 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF and EliasT to summarize open SPARQL protocol issues and  propose resolutions in email to WG [DONE]
14:41:13 <LeeF> ACTION: PatH to draft replacement vanilla entailment section for WG  consideration [CONTINUES]
14:41:23 <LeeF> ACTION: KendallC to close formsOfDistinct issue [CONTINUES]
14:41:34 <LeeF> ACTION: PatH to review the proposed tests in http:// lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0169 and say yay or nay [CONTINUES]
14:41:43 <kendallclark> zakim, take up next agendum
14:41:43 <Zakim> agendum 3. "expressions in select" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:42:52 <Zakim> +??P32
14:43:02 <ericP> zakim, ??P32 is me
14:43:02 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
14:43:04 <LeeF> Present +EricP
14:43:07 <LeeF> Regrets -EricP
14:43:12 <jeen> jeen has joined #dawg
14:43:23 <ericP> Regards: +EricP
14:43:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:44:00 <jeen> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:44:00 <Zakim> +jeen; got it
14:44:06 <LeeF> Present +jeen
14:45:21 <LeeF> LeeF: consensus seems to be that people feel the need for expressions in the select list, but closing/postponing this issue won't preclude future work by a future group
14:46:10 <LeeF> PROPOSED: to close the puncutationSyntax issue
14:46:22 <kendallclark> a basic scribe need! :)
14:46:50 <LeeF> RESOLVED, FredZ (Oracle) abstaining
14:46:58 <kendallclark> zakim, take up next agendum
14:46:58 <Zakim> agendum 4. "scope of filter" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:47:43 <LeeF> kendallclark: last week, the discussion about filter scope shifted quickly from FILTERs to how to determine the first argument to OPTIONAL
14:48:23 <kendallclark>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0243
14:48:42 <kendallclark> Andy's reply:
14:48:42 <kendallclark> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0099.html
14:48:51 <LeeF> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0243 contains some test cases about the scope and order of FILTER 
14:49:24 <LeeF> AndyS: dawg-filter-scope-003 is more about the execution order than about the scope of filters per se
14:49:52 <LeeF> AndyS: Lee's design would be consistent with the proposed algebra change
14:51:19 <EliasT> EliasT has joined #dawg
14:51:58 <kendallclark> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:51:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, SimonR, PatH, ericP, jeen
14:52:16 <LeeF> ericP: can't pass the tests without writing new code because I have variables in scope for the inner group
14:53:08 <kendallclark> cute :)
14:54:13 <ericP> LeeF, i think kendallclark asked you to scribe something about 001 and 004, but i don't know what
14:54:24 <kendallclark> PROPOSAL: to approve dawg-filter-scope-001, 002, dawg-filter-order-001
14:54:38 <ericP> zakim, who is making noise
14:54:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', ericP
14:54:43 <kendallclark> zakim, who's making noise?
14:54:44 <LeeF> zakim, who's speaking?
14:55:00 <Zakim> kendallclark, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jeen (18%), AndyS (33%)
14:55:16 <Zakim> LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 7 (4%), jeen (13%), AndyS (29%), Kendall_Clark (36%), ericP (13%)
14:55:29 <AndyS> That better?  I'm muted here now.
14:55:32 <jeen> zakim, mute me
14:55:32 <Zakim> jeen should now be muted
14:56:05 <LeeF> PROPOSAL: to approve dawg-filter-scope-001, 002, dawg-filter-order-001
14:56:13 <EliasT> yay
14:56:18 <LeeF> RESOLVED
14:56:18 <jeen> yay
14:56:22 <ericP> yay!
14:56:41 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to throw said 3 approved tests into the approved bucket
14:57:43 <kendallclark> ACTION KendallC: the wee, lost filter tests should be put to the question (re: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0099.html)
14:58:54 <ericP> 4.7: [[@@Filters apply to the whole of the group they are in.  Canonically, all matchingis done, then filters are applied.  Implementations wil optimize this.]]
14:58:56 <kendallclark> zakim, take up next agendum
14:58:56 <Zakim> agendum 5. "operational definition of SPARQL algebra" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:59:09 <kendallclark> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0080.html
14:59:18 <LeeF> ericP, needs to specifically say the *innermost* group
15:01:31 <LeeF> AndyS: bottom-up algebra approach in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0080.html -- document changes would be rewriting definitions and formally defining join and leftjoin for SPARQL (slightly different from relational algebra)
15:02:12 <ericP> AndyS, do you mind if i patch the @@ to include "innermost"?
15:02:25 <LeeF> LeeF: i think this makes it clearer, addresses some concerns of the community, easier to reason over
15:02:32 <LeeF> SimonR: I think this is a hue improvement
15:03:10 <LeeF> AndyS: Wanted to give anyone who has objections a chance to raise them; it is a significant change, and so I want people to be able to voice concerns before we go too far down this road. In particular, I'd like to hear from Fred
15:03:34 <AndyS> EricP : innermost isn't clear to me.  Seems to be the most deeply nested not "same level".
15:04:31 <LeeF> kendallclark: there's a new document from the Chileans trying to work out formal semantics for SPARQL. they claim to formalize the semantics w/o changing the semantics. Would it be worth having this group of people review the changes we are making here?
15:08:24 <kendallclark> zakim, take up next agendum
15:08:32 <ericP> The way we generally handle the ACTION on folks who aren't here is to ACTION some other poor shmuck to pester them
15:08:48 <kendallclark> zakim, take up next agendum
15:09:16 <Zakim> I do not see any non-closed agenda items, kendallclark
15:09:36 <Zakim> I do not see any non-closed agenda items, kendallclark
15:09:36 <LeeF> AndyS, "the smallest group which contains the FILTER" -- isn't that accurate ?
15:09:59 <ericP> LeeF, perhaps s/smallest/innermost/ ?
15:10:13 <LeeF> ericP, was trying to avoid innermost since Andy wasn't happy with it :)
15:10:34 <patH> Where are these new Chilean documents? Are they public?
15:10:38 <AndyS> By this point, it's going to probably better be expressed relative to the algebra and syntax words may be confusing.
15:10:43 <LeeF> ericP: how do we communicate in the test materials that a certain test requires certain extensibility in a SPARQL engine?
15:10:50 <SimonR> (Clattery keyboard!)
15:10:57 <kendallclark> path: i'm sending it to the list now
15:11:12 <patH> ta
15:11:44 <LeeF> AndyS, OK I'll be glad to be a word-reviewer rather than a word-smither of this particular wording :)
15:12:08 <AndyS> yes - it's only an @@ for me!
15:12:30 <LeeF> ericP: i proposed mf:requires such that FOO mf:requires xsd:someType means that the test requires support for the type 
15:14:36 <kendallclark> (email w/ chilean semantics paper sent to list)
15:14:59 <LeeF> AndyS: harder to talk about tests in the implementation report without having URIs for them
15:17:33 <jeen> (back)
15:17:54 <jeen> zakim unmute me
15:17:59 <jeen> zakim, unmute me
15:17:59 <Zakim> jeen should no longer be muted
15:19:53 <AndyS> Woks for me - I'll go and impl new algebra :-)
15:20:00 <SimonR> Maybe giving the tests an rdf:type instead, so that classifying something as in a partcular manifest and required by a particular extension could be done using subclassing.
15:20:12 <LeeF> PROPOSED to adjourn early
15:20:14 <LeeF> seconded
15:20:16 <LeeF> RESOLVED
15:20:28 <LeeF> ADJOURNED
15:20:35 <LeeF> RRSAgent, stop