IRC log of dawg on 2006-10-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:26:17 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:26:17 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/24-dawg-irc

14:26:20 [kendallclark]

zakim, this will be dawg

14:26:20 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'this will be dawg', kendallclark

14:26:25 [kendallclark]

zakim, this will be dawg

14:26:25 [Zakim]

ok, kendallclark; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

14:26:32 [AndyS]

Be back in a moment

14:26:34 [AndyS]

AndyS has left #dawg

14:26:34 [LeeF]

zakim, it's an extra space character, don't be such a stickler

14:26:34 [Zakim]

I don't understand you, LeeF

14:26:37 [kendallclark]

zakim, you are one picky bot

14:26:37 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'you are one picky bot', kendallclark

14:26:47 [kendallclark]

zakim, anything

14:26:47 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'anything', kendallclark

14:26:50 [kendallclark]

I know.

14:27:08 [kendallclark]

zakim, how my bottish life can be so meaningless.

14:27:08 [Zakim]

I don't understand you, kendallclark

14:27:13 [kendallclark]

heh!!

14:27:15 [kendallclark]

nice

14:27:17 [LeeF]

oo, he got you good

14:27:48 [kendallclark]

agenda+ convene, agenda comments, roll call, minutes, next meeting, recruit scribe

14:27:54 [kendallclark]

agenda+ action items

14:28:02 [kendallclark]

agenda+ expressions in select

14:28:17 [kendallclark]

agenda+ scope of filter

14:28:28 [patH]

patH has joined #dawg

14:28:33 [kendallclark]

agenda+ operational definition of SPARQL algebra

14:28:36 [LeeF]

zakim, passcode?

14:28:36 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7333 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), LeeF

14:28:40 [kendallclark]

hmm, that's enough for now, I think

14:28:53 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started

14:29:00 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

14:29:13 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:29:16 [Zakim]

-[IBMCambridge]

14:29:18 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

14:29:47 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:29:47 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [IBMCambridge], PatH

14:30:16 [LeeF]

zakim, IBMCambridge is LeeF

14:30:16 [Zakim]

+LeeF; got it

14:31:01 [LeeF]

Scribe: LeeF

14:31:03 [LeeF]

Chair: kendallclark

14:31:09 [LeeF]

Meeting: RDF DAWG Weekly

14:31:17 [AndyS]

AndyS has joined #dawg

14:31:32 [kendallclark]

feeling sick today, moving slowly

14:31:51 [LeeF]

Regrets: SteveH

14:32:01 [Zakim]

+??P28

14:32:04 [kendallclark]

Regrets: FredZ too

14:32:05 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P28 is me

14:32:05 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:32:06 [LeeF]

Present: kendallclark, LeeF, PatH, AndyS

14:32:10 [LeeF]

Regrets +FredZ

14:32:29 [kendallclark]

hmm, /me locked out...

14:32:34 [Zakim]

+Kendall_Clark

14:32:53 [LeeF]

Regrets +EricP

14:33:11 [Zakim]

+??P29

14:33:14 [Zakim]

-PatH

14:33:25 [SimonR]

Zakim, ??P29 is SimonR

14:33:25 [Zakim]

+SimonR; got it

14:33:25 [kendallclark]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:33:26 [Zakim]

On the phone I see LeeF, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, SimonR

14:33:33 [LeeF]

Present +SimonR

14:33:36 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:34:12 [kendallclark]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0090.html

14:34:29 [LeeF]

Present +EliasT

14:34:44 [LeeF]

Agenda is swell. Let's do it.

14:35:38 [AndyS]

Can't anyone can email the list (as Henry demo'ed!)

14:35:45 [LeeF]

No minutes public yet from last week, we'll approve them next week

14:37:25 [LeeF]

Daylight time changes before next meeting -- for now we'll keep the meeting at 14:30Z

14:37:33 [LeeF]

Next meeting: October 31, 14:30Z

14:38:29 [LeeF]

AndyS: not available the week of the 7th (ISWC) but available the 14th

14:38:39 [LeeF]

LeeF: availble the 7th but not the 14th (SWEO IG F2F)

14:38:46 [LeeF]

PatH: available

14:39:01 [LeeF]

EliasT: available both

14:39:15 [LeeF]

AndyS: EricP probably not available on the 14th

14:39:19 [LeeF]

kendallclark: available both

14:39:27 [LeeF]

we'll probably meet both dates even with small crews

14:40:04 [LeeF]

Next meeting: October 31, 14:30Z, AndyS to scribe

14:40:06 [kendallclark]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:40:06 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "convene, agenda comments, roll call, minutes, next meeting, recruit scribe" taken up [from kendallclark]

14:40:14 [kendallclark]

zakim, close agendum 1

14:40:14 [Zakim]

agendum 1, convene, agenda comments, roll call, minutes, next meeting, recruit scribe, closed

14:40:15 [kendallclark]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:40:16 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:40:17 [Zakim]

2. action items [from kendallclark]

14:40:19 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "action items" taken up [from kendallclark]

14:40:49 [LeeF]

ACTION: FredZ to repost pointers to previous arguments for curlies on OPTIZONAL LHS [DONE]

14:41:03 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF and EliasT to summarize open SPARQL protocol issues and propose resolutions in email to WG [DONE]

14:41:13 [LeeF]

ACTION: PatH to draft replacement vanilla entailment section for WG consideration [CONTINUES]

14:41:23 [LeeF]

ACTION: KendallC to close formsOfDistinct issue [CONTINUES]

14:41:34 [LeeF]

ACTION: PatH to review the proposed tests in http:// lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0169 and say yay or nay [CONTINUES]

14:41:43 [kendallclark]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:41:43 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "expressions in select" taken up [from kendallclark]

14:42:52 [Zakim]

+??P32

14:43:02 [ericP]

zakim, ??P32 is me

14:43:02 [Zakim]

+ericP; got it

14:43:04 [LeeF]

Present +EricP

14:43:07 [LeeF]

Regrets -EricP

14:43:12 [jeen]

jeen has joined #dawg

14:43:23 [ericP]

Regards: +EricP

14:43:53 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:44:00 [jeen]

Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

14:44:00 [Zakim]

+jeen; got it

14:44:06 [LeeF]

Present +jeen

14:45:21 [LeeF]

LeeF: consensus seems to be that people feel the need for expressions in the select list, but closing/postponing this issue won't preclude future work by a future group

14:46:10 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: to close the puncutationSyntax issue

14:46:22 [kendallclark]

a basic scribe need! :)

14:46:50 [LeeF]

RESOLVED, FredZ (Oracle) abstaining

14:46:58 [kendallclark]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:46:58 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "scope of filter" taken up [from kendallclark]

14:47:43 [LeeF]

kendallclark: last week, the discussion about filter scope shifted quickly from FILTERs to how to determine the first argument to OPTIONAL

14:48:23 [kendallclark]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0243

14:48:42 [kendallclark]

Andy's reply:

14:48:42 [kendallclark]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0099.html

14:48:51 [LeeF]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0243 contains some test cases about the scope and order of FILTER

14:49:24 [LeeF]

AndyS: dawg-filter-scope-003 is more about the execution order than about the scope of filters per se

14:49:52 [LeeF]

AndyS: Lee's design would be consistent with the proposed algebra change

14:51:19 [EliasT]

EliasT has joined #dawg

14:51:58 [kendallclark]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:51:58 [Zakim]

On the phone I see LeeF, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, SimonR, PatH, ericP, jeen

14:52:16 [LeeF]

ericP: can't pass the tests without writing new code because I have variables in scope for the inner group

14:53:08 [kendallclark]

cute :)

14:54:13 [ericP]

LeeF, i think kendallclark asked you to scribe something about 001 and 004, but i don't know what

14:54:24 [kendallclark]

PROPOSAL: to approve dawg-filter-scope-001, 002, dawg-filter-order-001

14:54:38 [ericP]

zakim, who is making noise

14:54:38 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is making noise', ericP

14:54:43 [kendallclark]

zakim, who's making noise?

14:54:44 [LeeF]

zakim, who's speaking?

14:55:00 [Zakim]

kendallclark, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jeen (18%), AndyS (33%)

14:55:16 [Zakim]

LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 7 (4%), jeen (13%), AndyS (29%), Kendall_Clark (36%), ericP (13%)

14:55:29 [AndyS]

That better? I'm muted here now.

14:55:32 [jeen]

zakim, mute me

14:55:32 [Zakim]

jeen should now be muted

14:56:05 [LeeF]

PROPOSAL: to approve dawg-filter-scope-001, 002, dawg-filter-order-001

14:56:13 [EliasT]

yay

14:56:18 [LeeF]

RESOLVED

14:56:18 [jeen]

yay

14:56:22 [ericP]

yay!

14:56:41 [LeeF]

ACTION: LeeF to throw said 3 approved tests into the approved bucket

14:57:43 [kendallclark]

ACTION KendallC: the wee, lost filter tests should be put to the question (re: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0099.html)

14:58:54 [ericP]

4.7: [[@@Filters apply to the whole of the group they are in. Canonically, all matchingis done, then filters are applied. Implementations wil optimize this.]]

14:58:56 [kendallclark]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:58:56 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "operational definition of SPARQL algebra" taken up [from kendallclark]

14:59:09 [kendallclark]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0080.html

14:59:18 [LeeF]

ericP, needs to specifically say the *innermost* group

15:01:31 [LeeF]

AndyS: bottom-up algebra approach in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0080.html -- document changes would be rewriting definitions and formally defining join and leftjoin for SPARQL (slightly different from relational algebra)

15:02:12 [ericP]

AndyS, do you mind if i patch the @@ to include "innermost"?

15:02:25 [LeeF]

LeeF: i think this makes it clearer, addresses some concerns of the community, easier to reason over

15:02:32 [LeeF]

SimonR: I think this is a hue improvement

15:03:10 [LeeF]

AndyS: Wanted to give anyone who has objections a chance to raise them; it is a significant change, and so I want people to be able to voice concerns before we go too far down this road. In particular, I'd like to hear from Fred

15:03:34 [AndyS]

EricP : innermost isn't clear to me. Seems to be the most deeply nested not "same level".

15:04:31 [LeeF]

kendallclark: there's a new document from the Chileans trying to work out formal semantics for SPARQL. they claim to formalize the semantics w/o changing the semantics. Would it be worth having this group of people review the changes we are making here?

15:08:24 [kendallclark]

zakim, take up next agendum

15:08:32 [ericP]

The way we generally handle the ACTION on folks who aren't here is to ACTION some other poor shmuck to pester them

15:08:48 [kendallclark]

zakim, take up next agendum

15:09:16 [Zakim]

I do not see any non-closed agenda items, kendallclark

15:09:36 [Zakim]

I do not see any non-closed agenda items, kendallclark

15:09:36 [LeeF]

AndyS, "the smallest group which contains the FILTER" -- isn't that accurate ?

15:09:59 [ericP]

LeeF, perhaps s/smallest/innermost/ ?

15:10:13 [LeeF]

ericP, was trying to avoid innermost since Andy wasn't happy with it :)

15:10:34 [patH]

Where are these new Chilean documents? Are they public?

15:10:38 [AndyS]

By this point, it's going to probably better be expressed relative to the algebra and syntax words may be confusing.

15:10:43 [LeeF]

ericP: how do we communicate in the test materials that a certain test requires certain extensibility in a SPARQL engine?

15:10:50 [SimonR]

(Clattery keyboard!)

15:10:57 [kendallclark]

path: i'm sending it to the list now

15:11:12 [patH]

ta

15:11:44 [LeeF]

AndyS, OK I'll be glad to be a word-reviewer rather than a word-smither of this particular wording :)

15:12:08 [AndyS]

yes - it's only an @@ for me!

15:12:30 [LeeF]

ericP: i proposed mf:requires such that FOO mf:requires xsd:someType means that the test requires support for the type

15:14:36 [kendallclark]

(email w/ chilean semantics paper sent to list)

15:14:59 [LeeF]

AndyS: harder to talk about tests in the implementation report without having URIs for them

15:17:33 [jeen]

(back)

15:17:54 [jeen]

zakim unmute me

15:17:59 [jeen]

zakim, unmute me

15:17:59 [Zakim]

jeen should no longer be muted

15:19:53 [AndyS]

Woks for me - I'll go and impl new algebra :-)

15:20:00 [SimonR]

Maybe giving the tests an rdf:type instead, so that classifying something as in a partcular manifest and required by a particular extension could be done using subclassing.

15:20:12 [LeeF]

PROPOSED to adjourn early

15:20:14 [LeeF]

seconded

15:20:16 [LeeF]

RESOLVED

15:20:28 [LeeF]

ADJOURNED

15:20:35 [LeeF]

RRSAgent, stop