IRC log of swd on 2006-10-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:44:02 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swd
14:44:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:44:10 [RalphS]
Meeting: SWD WG
14:44:15 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swd
14:44:19 [RalphS]
zakim, this will be swd
14:44:21 [Zakim]
ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD()11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
14:44:28 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make this record public
14:52:03 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started
14:52:11 [Zakim]
14:52:32 [TomB]
TomB has joined #swd
14:52:42 [TomB]
RalphS, hi!
14:57:16 [RalphS]
wow, you call in early, Tom :)
14:57:35 [Zakim]
14:59:41 [Antoine]
Antoine has joined #swd
15:00:02 [berrueta]
berrueta has joined #swd
15:00:35 [Zakim]
15:01:02 [Zakim]
+ +31.20.598.aaaa - is perhaps Guus
15:01:06 [Zakim]
15:01:08 [RalphS]
Previous: 2006-10-10
15:01:20 [Bern]
Bern has joined #swd
15:01:20 [RalphS]
zakim, aaaa is Antoine
15:01:25 [Zakim]
sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:01:27 [Zakim]
15:01:30 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p40 is Daniel_Rubin
15:01:30 [Zakim]
+Daniel_Rubin; got it
15:02:10 [Zakim]
15:02:18 [Antoine]
zakim, +31.20.598.aaaa is me
15:02:18 [Zakim]
sorry, Antoine, I do not recognize a party named '+31.20.598.aaaa'
15:02:26 [berrueta]
Zakim, ??p48 is me
15:02:27 [Zakim]
15:02:28 [Zakim]
+berrueta; got it
15:02:50 [guus]
guus has joined #swd
15:03:16 [TomB]
zakim, please mute me
15:03:21 [aliman]
aliman has joined #swd
15:03:27 [seanb]
seanb has joined #swd
15:03:33 [Zakim]
Tom_Baker should now be muted
15:03:41 [ryager]
ryager has joined #swd
15:03:45 [TomB]
zakim, please unmute me
15:03:51 [Zakim]
Tom_Baker should no longer be muted
15:04:04 [guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:04:07 [dlrubin]
dlrubin has joined #swd
15:04:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom_Baker, Ralph, Bernard_Horan, Guus, Daniel_Rubin, Rachel_Yager, berrueta, Guus_Schreiber
15:04:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ryager, seanb, Alistair, guus, Bern, berrueta, Antoine, TomB, Zakim, RRSAgent, RalphS
15:04:27 [Zakim]
15:04:39 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p52 is Sean
15:04:47 [Zakim]
+Sean; got it
15:04:51 [Zakim]
15:04:56 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p58 is Alistair
15:05:07 [Zakim]
+Alistair; got it
15:05:47 [RalphS]
Topic: Admin
15:05:56 [RalphS]
scribenick: alistair
15:06:02 [RalphS]
Scribe: Alistair
15:06:04 [RalphS]
scribenick: alistair_scribe
15:06:13 [RalphS]
zakim, list attendees
15:06:13 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Tom_Baker, Ralph, Bernard_Horan, +31.20.598.aaaa, Rachel_Yager, Daniel_Rubin, Guus_Schreiber, berrueta, Sean, Alistair
15:06:41 [TomB]
15:06:50 [Alistair_scribe]
Guus: propose to accept minutes of 10 oct telecon ...
15:07:03 [Alistair_scribe]
tomb: second
15:07:08 [Alistair_scribe]
guus: so resolved.
15:07:32 [RalphS]
zakim, Ben_Adida is with RalphS
15:07:32 [Zakim]
sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'RalphS'
15:07:33 [RalphS]
zakim, Ben_Adida is with Ralph
15:07:33 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida; got it
15:08:08 [Alistair_scribe]
tomb: one person is always taking notes into irc, then captured into a file, then end of meeting .... IRC is also command line for set of programs, one of which takes the irc log ...
15:08:17 [Alistair_scribe]
and turns it into minutes ...
15:08:43 [Alistair_scribe]
every week somebody is scribe, includes taking raw output of program which makes draft meeting report and cleaning it up ...
15:08:51 [Alistair_scribe]
zakim, mute me
15:08:51 [Zakim]
sorry, Alistair_scribe, I do not see a party named 'Alistair_scribe'
15:09:00 [Alistair_scribe]
zakim, mute Alistair
15:09:00 [Zakim]
Alistair should now be muted
15:09:22 [Alistair_scribe]
tomb: good to have meeting reports that are both quotable text to reply in email and as HTML files to browse ...
15:09:46 [Alistair_scribe]
please consider using a mailing program that handles quoting well ...
15:10:13 [Alistair_scribe]
guus: conventions for scribing actions etc. ...
15:10:20 [benadida]
benadida has joined #SWD
15:10:24 [Alistair_scribe]
ralph: ben adida joined me in my office ...
15:10:44 [Alistair_scribe]
notational conventions, use IRC to scribe so corrections can be made on the way ...
15:11:04 [RalphS]
Ralph: irc notation is important -- e.g. "Ralph: irc notation is important" means the scribe heard Ralph say those words
15:11:07 [Alistair_scribe]
many tools for producing minutes easier ...
15:11:31 [Alistair_scribe]
notational conventions ... when citing a person speaking, put that person's name or irc nick followed by colon ...
15:12:11 [Alistair_scribe]
then text quoting them ... note that in other irc communities a colon means you're addressing the person not quoting them ...
15:12:27 [RalphS]
Ralph: "... signals continuation line"
15:12:59 [Alistair_scribe]
... alistair should be using dots at the beginning of the line ...
15:13:18 [Alistair_scribe]
... script that makes the minutes will also recognise the dots at the end of the line ...
15:13:25 [Alistair_scribe]
... we'll find out ...
15:13:36 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ralph consider a tutorial on scribe conventions
15:13:39 [Alistair_scribe]
... actions and decisions ...
15:14:15 [Alistair_scribe]
... can do "action:" in uppercase or lowercase
15:14:18 [RalphS]
rrsagent, list action
15:14:18 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'list action', RalphS. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:14:19 [RalphS]
rrsagent, list actions
15:14:19 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
15:14:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph consider a tutorial on scribe conventions [1]
15:14:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:14:32 [Alistair_scribe]
... at the end of the meeting when RRSAgent is excused he reports the list of actions
15:15:10 [Alistair_scribe]
... one other IRC convention is, when I typed "action: ..." the bot responded in a slightly different format, depending on the IRC client
15:15:28 [Alistair_scribe]
... what I see is asterix then "RRSAgent ..."
15:15:44 [Alistair_scribe]
... this is an "offline" or "out-of-band" comment
15:16:20 [Alistair_scribe]
... style, those things do not get recorded on the irc log, do not show up in the minutes, use this for anything that doesn't want to go in the permanent record
15:16:32 [Alistair_scribe]
... use your judgment about what is "off the record"
15:16:34 [TomB]
q+ to ask how to get a URL such as
15:16:54 [Alistair_scribe]
... equivalent to styles used e.g. in swig
15:17:04 [RalphS]
Ralph: "/me is what my irc client uses for the other style of off-the-record"
15:17:29 [Alistair_scribe]
... those two styles are the same as far as the meeting record is concerned
15:17:31 [Zakim]
TomB, you wanted to ask how to get a URL such as
15:17:33 [guus]
15:17:40 [Alistair_scribe]
... note that tomb used "q+" to raise his hand
15:17:51 [Alistair_scribe]
... note ralph ack tom
15:18:24 [TomB]
15:18:42 [Alistair_scribe]
... RRS agent builds those URLs (for actions), RRSAgent initially builds the URL that points to the raw IRC log, timestamped ...
15:18:53 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:18:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate RalphS
15:18:58 [Alistair_scribe]
... action URL is produced by the minutes reformatting script ...
15:19:17 [Alistair_scribe]
... can ask for the minutes to be redrafted, gets queued in the background
15:19:22 [TomB]
q+ to ask whether #action01 URIs only get generated at the _end_ of the telecon?
15:19:29 [dlrubin]
q+ How Alistair designated himself as scribe, and what needs to be done to the minutes after the meeting
15:19:31 [Alistair_scribe]
... can now look at the -minutes.html file.
15:19:47 [Alistair_scribe]
tomb: those action URLs get generated at the end of the telecon?
15:19:56 [Alistair_scribe]
ralph: get generated by the draft minutes request.
15:20:41 [Alistair_scribe]
daniel: how does scribe get designated? all minutes get recorded at the server side, what does scribe have to do after?
15:20:52 [Alistair_scribe]
ralph: don't have to put "scribe" in your nick".
15:21:15 [RalphS]
scribenick: alistair_scribe
15:21:17 [Alistair_scribe]
... script will use a heuristic to determine who was probably the scribe, if scribe changes midstream can change scribe explicitly ...
15:21:35 [Alistair_scribe]
... that text in the irc record tells script which lines coming from scribe
15:22:05 [Alistair_scribe]
... other question, the IRC log is recorded on the W3C servers, the draft minutes script will produce an HTML file which always needs a little bit of hand editing
15:22:51 [Alistair_scribe]
... e.g. scroll to today's record, see there is diagnostic output, in there will be diagnostics pointing to places that might need some attention
15:23:19 [Alistair_scribe]
... once you've dealt with issues, delete diagnostics. If you've followed the conventions for scribing then the amount of cleanup is minimal.
15:23:27 [Alistair_scribe]
daniel: where do you go to clean up the minutes?
15:23:43 [RalphS]
-> today's minutes
15:23:57 [Alistair_scribe]
ralph: when you ask for the minutes to be generated, you'll get the URI ...
15:24:27 [seanb]
q+ And how do we upload the edited minutes?
15:24:29 [Alistair_scribe]
... constructed according to a regular pattern.
15:24:51 [Bern]
q+ where is all this documented?
15:25:08 [Alistair_scribe]
... because minutes into year/month directory on W3C, cannot give write access to WG participants, so we work around this ...
15:25:15 [guus]
* ack sensb
15:25:27 [Alistair_scribe]
... e.g. when scribe has finished cleaning up the HTML file send it to me, I'll put it up.
15:25:51 [guus]
ack Bern
15:25:59 [Alistair_scribe]
ralph: i'll find a link to some info about this ...
15:26:09 [TomB]
15:26:20 [RalphS]
-> Chris Welty's collection of how W3C meetings run
15:26:43 [RalphS]
-> Art of Consensus
15:27:12 [Alistair_scribe]
... art of consensus started out as hints for WG charis, been expanded to include other stuff ...
15:27:35 [Alistair_scribe]
... see especially section "collected wisdom and advice"
15:27:44 [TomB]
15:28:25 [Alistair_scribe]
ACTION: ralph to link to chris' telecon notes from SWD homepage
15:28:54 [Alistair_scribe]
daniel: how does alistair know who's talking? :)
15:28:59 [Alistair_scribe]
ralph: this is ralph's voice.
15:29:34 [Alistair_scribe]
guus: customary to announce yourself when beginning talking
15:29:40 [Alistair_scribe]
... especially at start of new groups.
15:29:59 [Alistair_scribe]
... tom & I will also propose scheme for scribing.
15:30:11 [Alistair_scribe]
... going back to the agenda, one action in the minutes for ralph
15:30:17 [TomB]
ACTION: Tom and Guus to propose a scheme for scribing
15:30:31 [Alistair_scribe]
15:30:40 [RalphS]
-> other potential WG meetings 22 Jan
15:30:53 [Alistair_scribe]
guus: straw poll last week on f2f, good timing wrt planning
15:31:03 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ralph communicate to January meeting planners
15:31:03 [RalphS]
our desire to keep the option for f2f open for a couple more
15:31:03 [RalphS]
weeks [recorded in
15:31:03 [RalphS]]
15:31:07 [RalphS]
15:31:07 [Alistair_scribe]
... f2f meetings typically where we decide to release key documents
15:31:09 [RalphS]
15:31:19 [Alistair_scribe]
... timing would be right to release use cases & requirements for SKOS
15:31:21 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ralph communicate to January meeting planners our desire to keep the option for f2f open for a couple more weeks [recorded in]
15:31:46 [Alistair_scribe]
... any new views on this? week of 22 january, for 2 day meeting either at meginning or end of meeting
15:31:54 [Alistair_scribe]
ben: if I'm in town I will attend
15:32:06 [Alistair_scribe]
zakim, unmute alistair
15:32:06 [Zakim]
Alistair should no longer be muted
15:32:45 [Alistair_scribe]
ralph: monday and tuesday best for me
15:32:49 [Alistair_scribe]
guus: same holds for me
15:32:53 [Alistair_scribe]
rachel: same for me
15:33:10 [Alistair_scribe]
guus: assume for the moment 22 23 january, need to decide on this within two weeks
15:33:29 [Alistair_scribe]
15:33:30 [RalphS]
15:33:42 [TomB]
scribenick: TomB_scribe
15:34:27 [TomB]
Alistair: On requirements. Today posted a long email to list on thoughts
15:34:28 [RalphS]
scribenick: TomB
15:34:57 [TomB]
...on requirements for SKOS. Based on my paper. Suggest we be careful not to bite off more than can chew.
15:35:01 [RalphS]
-> SKOS requirements [Alistair 2006-10-17]
15:35:15 [TomB]
...scope ourselves tightly by limiting use cases to two Patterns:
15:35:37 [TomB]
...1) one controlled vocab used to "index" some objects, then same vocab used to query index
15:35:57 [TomB]
...focus in terms of functionality: all to do with retrieval, specifically retrieval using CVs
15:36:26 [TomB]
...2) more than one CV in play. When different CVs used in metadata and in query, mapping is required.
15:36:58 [TomB] DC-2006 paper, sketched cases, broad-brush. What features draw out?
15:37:08 [TomB]
...So far no negative feedback.
15:37:50 [TomB]
...If we decide to accept this focus on retrieval, then difficulty: to describe the functionality in the abstract (not getting caught up in UI issues)
15:37:59 [TomB]
s/UI/User Interface/
15:38:21 [TomB]
...Wrote thesis on this - see posting.
15:38:52 [TomB]
...Different types of visualizations of CV for humans - which is necessary for SKOS to automatically generate?
15:39:13 [TomB]
...Emphasize Semantic Web flavor of use cases -- merging data from multiple sources.
15:39:25 [TomB]
...emphasize distributed aspect, data merging, in use cases.
15:39:53 [TomB]
Guus: Feedback regarding different use cases (different vocabularies)?
15:39:59 [Alistair_scribe]
bernard: couldn't access to paper ...
15:40:25 [TomB]
Bernard: Could not access papers - without tasks, not clear.
15:40:29 [Zakim]
TomB, you wanted to ask whether #action01 URIs only get generated at the _end_ of the telecon?
15:41:00 [TomB]
Alistair: "indexing" is the term that this community uses -- constructing metadata about objects and using controlled vocabulary for constructing metadata.
15:41:14 [TomB]
..."indexing": associating metadata with objects.
15:41:29 [TomB]
...CV index associates one or more terms from the vocabulary.
15:41:44 [TomB] "index" is "some metadata involving controlled vocabularies".
15:42:02 [TomB]
...Example: library catalog with Dewey code.
15:42:22 [TomB]
Bernard: why is the metadata important? Why not just, intrisically, the vocabulary?
15:42:34 [seanb]
q+ to ask whether there are clear examples that are *out of scope* of Patterns A and B
15:42:37 [TomB]
Alistair: taxonomy or CV needs to be designed with a function in mind.
15:43:08 [TomB]
...CV for one purpose will be different from Wordnet - structure of vocabulary will have different features because applied differently.
15:43:27 [TomB] focusing on functionality we want to support, focus on features we want to capture in the language itself.
15:43:39 [TomB]
...if our representation is sufficient for the functionality...
15:44:04 [TomB]
...Could be hard to understand when we have satisfied requirements.
15:44:18 [TomB]
Guus: People here using vocabularies for purposes different from indexing?
15:44:49 [TomB]
zakim, who is speaking
15:44:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is speaking', TomB
15:44:52 [guus]
[daniel is speaking]
15:45:10 [RalphS]
15:45:30 [TomB]
Daniel: shared repositories - desktop applications - medical ontologies. Problem is that content is not stabilized, so use cases not established.
15:45:42 [TomB]
Guus: Daniel, is what Alistair is saying consistent?
15:46:50 [TomB]
RalphS: Similar reaction to Bernard. Alistair mentioned A and B. As SWD moves forward, examples of deployed systems - specific customers in mind, helpful to cite early on.
15:47:12 [TomB]
Guus: Alistair, give pointers to existing systems.
15:47:24 [TomB]
ACTION: Alistair give pointers to deployed SKOS systems.
15:47:49 [TomB]
RalphS: you have abstract cases - continue in abstract vein?
15:48:18 [TomB]
Alistair: in my DC-2006 paper, a hypothetical use case, concretely illustrating Pattern A - also in dissertation
15:48:29 [guus]
ack seanb
15:48:29 [Zakim]
seanb, you wanted to ask whether there are clear examples that are *out of scope* of Patterns A and B
15:48:31 [TomB] posting today has relevant links.
15:48:46 [TomB]
SeanB: whether there are clear examples definitely out of scope of these patterns?
15:49:00 [TomB]
...helpful if there are examples of things we do _not_ want to address.
15:49:22 [TomB]
Alistair: Yes, e.g., Roget's Thesaurus (or thesaurus in MS-Word).
15:49:39 [TomB]
...glossaries and dictionaries...
15:50:00 [TomB]
..."terminologies" (confusingly called) - sets of lexical data for supporting translators
15:50:24 [TomB]
...if we accept my suggested scope they would be outside _our_ requirements (not to say it couldn't be done)
15:50:33 [RalphS]
zakim, guus is really Antoine
15:50:33 [Zakim]
+Antoine; got it
15:50:37 [TomB]
Rachel: Are these patterns SKOS-specific?
15:51:08 [TomB]
Alistair: these are application scenarios, within which SKOS can be applied in order to communicate shared data between software components involved.
15:51:17 [TomB]
...trying to illustrate use cases at high level...
15:51:30 [TomB]
...then saying "these are the types we want to target and support"...
15:51:54 [Zakim]
15:51:58 [TomB]
Rachel: need clarification of context - not just
15:52:37 [RalphS]
Antoine: pattern A is a traditional library use case
15:52:58 [RalphS]
... where the corpus is indexed by a controlled vocabulary in order to facilitate retrieval
15:53:11 [RalphS]
Rachel: so these patterns can be applied to more than SKOS?
15:53:18 [Zakim]
15:53:30 [RalphS]
Alistair: yes, these patterns can be applied to other organizations and services
15:53:55 [RalphS]
... we're trying to enable functionality in a distributed setting; i.e. Semantic Web, not necessarily provide new functionality
15:54:42 [TomB]
Guus: On mailing list this week, let's exchange whether these are useful scoping restrictions (or too strict)
15:55:11 [Alistair_scribe]
guus: should plan for requiremtns WD to come out in january ...
15:55:12 [RalphS]
scribenick: alistair_scribe
15:55:24 [Alistair_scribe]
... need to decide who will coordinate this draft
15:55:33 [Alistair_scribe]
... who will be willing to volunteer
15:55:55 [Alistair_scribe]
... normally would not ask main designed to coordinate the requirements document
15:56:00 [Alistair_scribe]
... talk about next week
15:56:17 [RalphS]
Topic: RDF in XHTML
15:56:17 [Alistair_scribe]
zakim, mute alistair
15:56:17 [Zakim]
Alistair should now be muted
15:57:13 [Alistair_scribe]
ben: task force in last WG (SWBPD) focus on rdf in html .
15:57:22 [Alistair_scribe]
... continued work in summer, just implementation and demo
15:57:35 [Alistair_scribe]
... now getting back into working on RDF/A syntax and primer docs
15:57:38 [RalphS]
-> update on RDFa progress from Ben
15:57:48 [Alistair_scribe]
... update with lessons learned, (lack of) difficulties in implementation
15:58:16 [Alistair_scribe]
... RDF/A is a way to express RDF triples in XHTML, using mostly attributes that already exist in XHTML, apply a bit more liberally to other elements
15:58:30 [Alistair_scribe]
... main construct is the "rel" attribute in the "a" element
15:58:50 [Alistair_scribe]
... e.g. if you link to creative commons license, and add a rel atttribute, you are effectively creating an RDF triple
15:59:08 [Alistair_scribe]
... so how easily can we get authors to embed rdf triples in html
15:59:24 [RalphS]
-> RDF in XHTML Taskforce (old)
15:59:42 [Alistair_scribe]
... RDF/A primer and syntax docs, working hard to update with latest changes
15:59:45 [RalphS]
-> RDFa Primer editors' draft
15:59:58 [RalphS]
-> RDFa Syntax editors' draft
16:00:02 [Alistair_scribe]
... RDF/A primer is good intro, short, examples, if it doesn't make sense give us some feedback
16:00:19 [Alistair_scribe]
... happy to have more contributors, ??? from IBM joined in summer
16:00:43 [Alistair_scribe]
guus: issue, do we continue with the idea of task forces, groups working seperately and reporting back to the main group
16:00:45 [Zakim]
16:00:53 [Alistair_scribe]
... is your proposal to continue that way? (ralph has doubts)
16:01:31 [Alistair_scribe]
ben: ralph's concern regarding fragmentation makes sense, but there are some fairly detailed rdf/a issues to discuss that may not be of interest to whole WG
16:01:49 [Alistair_scribe]
... but completely sympathetic to idea that all WG needs to be involved.
16:02:26 [Alistair_scribe]
guus: let's leave it here and come back to it next time. hope to see some mailing list communication especially regarding potential use cases and requirements for SKOS
16:03:12 [RalphS]
[I expect that we will want to create subcommittees in this WG but I'd like to suggest that important decisions come back to the WG telecon frequently as the subcommittees make progress]
16:03:25 [Alistair_scribe]
... AOB? thanks for joining, we are adjourned.
16:03:27 [Zakim]
16:03:30 [Zakim]
16:03:33 [Zakim]
16:03:34 [Zakim]
16:03:35 [Zakim]
16:03:38 [Zakim]
16:03:44 [benadida]
benadida has left #SWD
16:03:48 [Zakim]
16:03:56 [Zakim]
16:04:10 [Zakim]
16:04:11 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
16:04:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were Tom_Baker, Ralph, Bernard_Horan, +31.20.598.aaaa, Rachel_Yager, Daniel_Rubin, Guus_Schreiber, berrueta, Sean, Alistair, Ben_Adida, Antoine
16:04:20 [Alistair_scribe]
rrsagent, list actions
16:04:20 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in :
16:04:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph consider a tutorial on scribe conventions [1]
16:04:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:04:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ralph to link to chris' telecon notes from SWD homepage [2]
16:04:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:04:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Tom and Guus to propose a scheme for scribing [3]
16:04:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:04:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alistair give pointers to deployed SKOS systems. [4]
16:04:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:04:50 [Alistair_scribe]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:04:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Alistair_scribe
16:16:09 [seanb]
seanb has left #swd
16:35:18 [Antoine]
Antoine has left #swd