IRC log of rif on 2006-10-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:32:27 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:32:27 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-rif-irc
14:32:39 [ChrisW]: zakim, this will be rif
14:32:39 [Zakim]: ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
14:37:02 [ChrisW]: Meeting: RIF Telecon 10 Oct 06
14:37:02 [ChrisW]: Chair: Chris Welty
14:37:02 [ChrisW]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0056.html
14:37:02 [ChrisW]: Scribe: Mike Dean
14:37:14 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Admin'
14:37:23 [ChrisW]: agenda+ F2F
14:37:29 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Liason
14:37:38 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Technical Design
14:37:51 [ChrisW]: agenda+ RIF-RAF
14:37:58 [ChrisW]: agenda+ UCR
14:38:03 [ChrisW]: agenda+ AOB
14:38:11 [ChrisW]: zakim, next agendum
14:38:11 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Admin'" taken up [from ChrisW]
14:38:51 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
14:38:51 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:39:09 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make logs public
14:42:56 [ChrisW]: zakim, save agenda
14:43:02 [Zakim]: ok, ChrisW, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-rif-agenda.rdf
14:43:32 [ChrisW]: Meeting: RIF Telecon 17 Oct 06
14:46:36 [mdean]: mdean has joined #rif
14:48:50 [ChrisW]: ScribeNick: mdean
14:48:50 [ChrisW]: Regrets: IgorMozetic MinsuJang MichaelSintek JeffPan
14:48:56 [ChrisW]: Hi, Mike
14:50:25 [mdean]: hi chris
14:52:47 [mdean]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0056.html
14:53:09 [Francois]: Francois has joined #rif
14:53:41 [ChrisW]: zakim is all set up mike, with agenda, you can move to the next item with "next agendum"
14:53:55 [ChrisW]: zakim, list agenda
14:53:55 [Zakim]: I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
14:53:56 [Zakim]: 1. Admin' [from ChrisW]
14:53:57 [Zakim]: 2. F2F [from ChrisW]
14:53:58 [Zakim]: 3. Liason [from ChrisW]
14:53:59 [Zakim]: 4. Technical Design [from ChrisW]
14:54:00 [Zakim]: 5. RIF-RAF [from ChrisW]
14:54:01 [Zakim]: 6. UCR [from ChrisW]
14:54:03 [Zakim]: 7. AOB [from ChrisW]
14:54:12 [ChrisW]: ...and we are already on item 1
14:54:34 [mdean]: looks good - i assume sandro will track the details on the action item status
14:54:51 [ChrisW]: ChrisW has changed the topic to: 17 Oct RIF agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0056.html
14:54:56 [ChrisW]: yes, he or csma
14:55:30 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:55:37 [Zakim]: +Mike_Dean
14:57:01 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
14:57:07 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
14:57:20 [patranja]: patranja has joined #rif
14:57:35 [FrankMcCabe]: FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
14:57:44 [josb]: josb has joined #rif
14:57:50 [Zakim]: +??P7
14:57:52 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P7)
14:58:20 [Allen]: Allen has joined #rif
14:58:27 [Zakim]: +[NRCC]
14:58:28 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
14:58:28 [Zakim]: +??P10
14:58:32 [FrankMcCabe]: zakim, ipcaller is me
14:58:32 [Zakim]: +FrankMcCabe; got it
14:58:41 [Harold]: zakim, [NRCC] is me
14:58:41 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
14:58:41 [Francois]: zakim, ??P10 is me.
14:58:42 [Zakim]: +Francois; got it
14:58:51 [Francois]: zakim, mute me.
14:58:51 [Zakim]: Francois should now be muted
14:58:53 [Zakim]: +josb
14:59:03 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
14:59:06 [Hassan]: Hassan has joined #rif
14:59:11 [ChrisW]: zakim, ibm is temporarily me
14:59:11 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
14:59:39 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
14:59:52 [DavidHirtle]: DavidHirtle has joined #rif
14:59:54 [Zakim]: +Allen_Ginsberg
15:00:06 [Zakim]: +PaulaP
15:00:07 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
15:00:07 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:00:14 [Zakim]: +??P34
15:00:20 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:00:43 [cgi-irc]: cgi-irc has joined #rif
15:00:49 [Hassan]: Zakim, ??P34 is Hassan
15:00:49 [Zakim]: +Hassan; got it
15:00:51 [Zakim]: +Leora_Morgenstern
15:01:12 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, please mute me
15:01:13 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:01:49 [MarkusK]: MarkusK has joined #rif
15:02:07 [StellaMitchell]: StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:03:01 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:03:08 [StellaMitchell]: zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:03:19 [Zakim]: +StellaMitchell; got it
15:03:32 [johnhall]: johnhall has joined #rif
15:03:43 [mdean]: meeting started
15:03:46 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:04:32 [ChrisW]: last week's minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/att-0011/03-rif-minutes.html
15:04:35 [mdean]: Chair: think about whether we should have telecon on oct 31 right before F2F 4
15:04:39 [Zakim]: +Axel_Polleres
15:04:59 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:05:03 [csma]: csma has joined #rif
15:05:07 [mdean]: RESOLVED: minutes approved
15:05:08 [johnhall]: zakim, ipcaller is me
15:05:13 [Zakim]: +johnhall; got it
15:05:21 [johnhall]: zakim,mute me
15:05:25 [Zakim]: johnhall should now be muted
15:05:51 [DaveReynolds]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/att-0028/10-rif-minutes.html
15:06:09 [AlexKozlenkov]: AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif
15:06:15 [ChrisW]: csma are you coming to the telecon
15:06:27 [mdean]: corrected URL posted
15:06:43 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:06:44 [mdean]: no objections to approving 10 October minutes
15:06:55 [mdean]: no amendments to agenda
15:07:00 [mdean]: zakim, next agendum
15:07:00 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:07:14 [Zakim]: +??P61
15:07:15 [mdean]: peter not on telecon
15:07:20 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, ??P61 is me
15:07:20 [Zakim]: +AlexKozlenkov; got it
15:07:21 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:07:27 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, mute me
15:07:29 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
15:08:08 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:08:21 [Zakim]: +Thierry
15:08:28 [mdean]: mdean: ISWC2006 bus schedule now available at http://iswc2006.semanticweb.org/bus_sch.doc
15:09:04 [mdean]: mdean: mostly for main conference - doesn't necessarily help for f2f 4
15:09:36 [mdean]: sandro: room available for f2f5 at MIT - week of January 25
15:09:43 [Zakim]: + +44.186.561.aaaa
15:09:57 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, aaaa is me
15:09:57 [Zakim]: +MichaelKifer; got it
15:10:00 [csma]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:00 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike_Dean, Dave_Reynolds, Harold, FrankMcCabe, Francois (muted), josb (muted), ChrisW, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), PaulaP (muted), Hassan (muted), DavidHirtle,
15:10:04 [Zakim]: ... Leora_Morgenstern (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), Axel_Polleres (muted), johnhall (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), Sandro, cgi-irc, Thierry, MichaelKifer
15:10:07 [Zakim]: +Gary_Hallmark
15:10:07 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:10:09 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:10:10 [mdean]: Chair: only proposal for F2F5
15:10:10 [MalaMehrotra]: MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
15:10:14 [MoZ]: MoZ has joined #rif
15:10:22 [cgi-irc]: zakim, this is PaulVincent
15:10:22 [Zakim]: sorry, cgi-irc, I do not see a conference named 'PaulVincent' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:10:35 [mdean]: Chair: nobody has volunteered to host F2F6 at WWW2006 in Banff
15:10:41 [AxelPolleres]: We have made the proposal to colocate with ESWC in Innsbruck, yes.
15:10:46 [Zakim]: +Mala_Mehrotra
15:11:09 [mdean]: Chair: DERI proposal to host F2F6 in conjunction with ESWC in Innsbruck
15:11:14 [GaryHallmark]: GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:11:19 [josb]: eswc2007 is june 3-7, 2007
15:11:41 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:11:55 [mdean]: Chair: decide on F2F5 by November 4
15:12:08 [mdean]: Chair: don't need to decide on F2F6 this far in advance
15:12:12 [johnhall]: Nothing for SBVR
15:12:14 [mdean]: zakim, next agendum
15:12:14 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:12:19 [Zakim]: -Thierry
15:12:22 [cgi-irc]: PRR: no news
15:12:42 [mdean]: zakim, next agendum
15:12:42 [Zakim]: agendum 3 was just opened, mdean
15:12:59 [mdean]: Chair: action review
15:13:52 [mdean]: action 119 and 197 done
15:14:07 [mdean]: Christian action continued
15:14:15 [Hassan]: It is ACTION-87 (not 197)
15:14:23 [Allen]: zakim,unmute me
15:14:23 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
15:14:24 [Harold]: http://www.jdrew.org/oojdrew/demo_new.html
15:14:30 [JosD]: JosD has joined #rif
15:14:30 [mdean]: action 140 done - added to Wiki
15:14:43 [Zakim]: +Thierry
15:14:44 [mdean]: s/action/Harold: action/
15:14:48 [Zakim]: +Gerd_Wagner
15:15:02 [GerdWagner]: GerdWagner has joined #rif
15:15:51 [mdean]: action 141 open - got permission to release, translating make to ant, should post this week
15:16:10 [Zakim]: -Sandro
15:16:25 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
15:16:25 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
15:16:28 [csma]: q+
15:16:34 [mdean]: action 142 continued
15:17:17 [mdean]: Christian: perhaps work on simplified version that doesn't require weaving?
15:17:47 [Zakim]: +??P62
15:18:16 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:18:16 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike_Dean, Dave_Reynolds, Harold, FrankMcCabe, Francois (muted), josb (muted), ChrisW, Allen_Ginsberg, PaulaP (muted), Hassan, DavidHirtle, Leora_Morgenstern
15:18:19 [Zakim]: ... (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), Axel_Polleres (muted), johnhall (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), PaulVincent, MichaelKifer (muted), Gary_Hallmark, Mala_Mehrotra, MarkusK
15:18:21 [mdean]: Hassan: interesting, but not most important given limited availability
15:18:21 [Zakim]: ... (muted), csma, Gerd_Wagner, ??P62
15:18:50 [ChrisW]: zakim, p62 is josD
15:18:50 [Zakim]: sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'p62'
15:18:57 [ChrisW]: zakim, ??p62 is josD
15:18:57 [Zakim]: +josD; got it
15:19:14 [Hassan]: hello?
15:19:28 [mdean]: zakim, next agendum
15:19:28 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Technical Design" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:19:46 [mdean]: Chair: lots of discussion on email list regarding syntax of core proposal
15:19:47 [ChrisW]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/CORE
15:20:17 [mdean]: Chair: can't navigate from one Wiki page to next page
15:20:30 [mdean]: ACTION (Harold): add next/previous links
15:21:10 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:21:16 [mdean]: Chair: condition vs. core language
15:21:34 [mdean]: Chair: try out core (Horn) language, not just condition language
15:21:44 [mdean]: Harold: entire table of contents is core
15:22:09 [mdean]: Chair: laid out like core is an extension of condition - will provide more concrete update proposal
15:22:44 [mdean]: ACTION (ChrisW): provide more concrete update proposal for core and condition layout
15:22:50 [AxelPolleres]: Zakim, unmute me
15:22:50 [Zakim]: Axel_Polleres should no longer be muted
15:23:43 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
15:23:43 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
15:23:46 [mdean]: FrankMcCabe: for example 4, important that we require explicit quantification of variables (for all or exists)
15:23:58 [MichaelKifer]: q+
15:24:12 [mdean]: csma: explicit quantification of free variables in condition
15:24:46 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
15:24:46 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:25:03 [Francois]: +1 with explicit scopes for variables.
15:25:21 [mdean]: Harold: condition language has existential quantifiers - universals not explicit
15:25:31 [csma]: q+
15:26:11 [sandro]: sandro has joined #rif
15:26:18 [mdean]: Chair: language ultimately needs to be extended - should allow quantification at rule level, with possible syntactic restrictions
15:26:19 [johnhall]: zakim, mute me
15:26:19 [Zakim]: johnhall was already muted, johnhall
15:26:22 [csma]: q?
15:26:31 [csma]: q?
15:26:40 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: tasked to provide small minimal language
15:26:54 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: agree that eventually has to be extended with explicit quantification
15:27:10 [mdean]: FrankMcCabe: explicit quantification should be required
15:27:19 [csma]: q?
15:27:31 [csma]: ack csma
15:27:45 [mdean]: Chair: expect that software will generate RIF - not losing anything if all translators are explicit about quantification
15:27:56 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: human readable syntax may be used directly
15:28:03 [mdean]: csma: strongly disagree
15:28:19 [sandro]: +1 MKifer it's nice to avoid gratuitious verbosity
15:28:35 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: don't deliberately cripple the language
15:28:40 [csma]: q+
15:28:41 [Hassan]: I agree with Chris - an implicit default quantification of unquantified variables can always be derived from a sugared syntax
15:28:51 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: lots of logic languages don't have explicit quantifiers
15:29:11 [sandro]: q?
15:29:15 [sandro]: ack MichaelKifer
15:29:28 [csma]: q?
15:29:32 [mdean]: Chair: make sense to make quantification explicit
15:30:00 [mdean]: Harold: simple connection with human readable syntax could be lost - also need set syntax - agree it should be explicit
15:30:01 [Hassan]: q+
15:30:04 [mdean]: s/make/makes
15:30:14 [csma]: q?
15:30:17 [GerdWagner]: +q
15:30:24 [mdean]: Chair: don't make design decisions based on human readability
15:30:27 [GerdWagner]: q+
15:30:36 [csma]: q?
15:30:53 [mdean]: Chair: design goal to enable translation software
15:30:56 [csma]: q?
15:31:07 [csma]: ack csma
15:31:11 [ChrisW]: ack csma
15:31:40 [FrankMcCabe]: +q
15:31:43 [FrankMcCabe]: q+
15:31:49 [mdean]: csma: third part of rule ...
15:32:45 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:32:45 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:32:56 [Harold]: q+
15:33:35 [ChrisW]: ack hassan
15:33:47 [csma]: zakim, mute me
15:33:47 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
15:34:17 [mdean]: Hassan: discussion worries me - similar to action 87
15:34:27 [mdean]: Hassan: are we creating ASTs for rule language?
15:34:36 [sandro]: s/action 87/ACTION-87/
15:34:45 [mdean]: Hassan: what people will use is XML vocabulary for RIF
15:35:53 [mdean]: Hassan: RIF Condition Language (RCL) won't be target of translators
15:36:00 [ChrisW]: ack gerd
15:36:15 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
15:36:15 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
15:36:36 [mdean]: Gerd: what about going beyond Horn
15:36:39 [ChrisW]: ack frank
15:36:51 [mdean]: Chair: explicit quantification, with syntactic restrictions for Horn
15:37:00 [sandro]: q+ to ask if the question here is whether quantifiers may be omitted for brevity, or if there's some other question.....
15:37:29 [AxelPolleres]: We can add a similar formulation as for when we allow to shortcut facts.
15:37:39 [mdean]: FrankMcCabe: relation symbol is unnecessarily simplistic - some languages support structures, variables, or objects
15:37:57 [mdean]: ... even RDF supports this
15:38:17 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
15:38:17 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:38:20 [MichaelKifer]: q+
15:38:28 [mdean]: ... rel should be expression
15:39:06 [csma]: zakim, mute me
15:39:06 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
15:39:07 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: minimal language - could have defined something like HiLog or CL with structured terms and objects within predicates
15:39:18 [mdean]: ... nucleus language that can be extended
15:39:33 [mdean]: FrankMcCabe: not extensible
15:39:59 [mdean]: s/expression/an expression/
15:40:11 [Hassan]: q+
15:40:43 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: oversight - proposal separates relational functional symbols and constants - new proposal just uses constant (including relation symbol)
15:40:48 [Francois]: q+
15:41:38 [mdean]: FrankMcCabe: does first XML element identify relation?
15:41:41 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: yes
15:42:05 [mdean]: ACTION (MichaelKifer): send updated proposal to list
15:43:05 [mdean]: FrankMcCabe: first XML child seems clumsly, but should work
15:43:38 [ChrisW]: ack harold
15:43:40 [Hassan]: q-
15:43:43 [mdean]: Harold: constants could handle more advanced cases
15:44:25 [mdean]: sandro: apparent consensus that conceptually, variables should be quantified, but XML may allow abbreviations
15:44:39 [ChrisW]: ack sandro
15:44:39 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to ask if the question here is whether quantifiers may be omitted for brevity, or if there's some other question.....
15:44:53 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: not opposed to make it explicit in serialization
15:45:00 [mdean]: s/make/making/
15:45:13 [mdean]: ... people will likely use RIF as KR language
15:45:16 [AxelPolleres]: q+
15:45:27 [mdean]: ... fine with mandatory XML quantifiers
15:45:32 [ChrisW]: ack michael
15:45:39 [MichaelKifer]: q-
15:45:41 [Francois]: zakim, unmute me.
15:45:41 [Zakim]: Francois should no longer be muted
15:45:46 [ChrisW]: ack francois
15:45:47 [sandro]: MichaelKifer: I am fine with manditory quantifiers in the XML serialization, but I want them to be omitable in the human-readable serialization.
15:45:48 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:45:48 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:46:14 [Zakim]: -Mala_Mehrotra
15:46:33 [mdean]: Francois: function symbols demonstrate need for different styles of dialects - perhaps specify with default options
15:46:49 [Hassan]: +1 with Francois
15:47:32 [ChrisW]: ack axel
15:47:33 [Francois]: zakim, mute me.
15:47:33 [Zakim]: Francois should now be muted
15:48:01 [mdean]: Axel: is PC data sufficient or should we allow URIs for relation and constant identifiers
15:48:03 [cgi-irc]: -1 on implicit design aspects of RIF supporting role as new rule language [which is not a requirement / CSF, AFAIK]
15:48:04 [AxelPolleres]: <rcl:rel rdf:resource="http://ex.org/myRel"/>
15:48:18 [mdean]: Harold: like webizing of relation names - likely to use attribute
15:48:18 [FrankMcCabe]: q+
15:48:35 [mdean]: ... in bipartitioned part of proposal
15:48:53 [mdean]: Chair: why partitioned part? what's being sorted?
15:49:12 [mdean]: Harold: partitioned distinguishes between int and string
15:49:22 [mdean]: ... could also accommodate webizing
15:49:24 [FrankMcCabe]: instead of <rel>foo</rel>
15:49:28 [FrankMcCabe]: we should have
15:49:34 [FrankMcCabe]: <rel name="foo"/>
15:49:44 [FrankMcCabe]: because that plays better with namespaces
15:49:58 [Hassan]: But Frank - does it really matter at this spoint?
15:50:17 [mdean]: Chair: language based sorts - perhaps different use of term
15:50:27 [DaveReynolds]: It matters when we need to actually exchange the AST
15:50:29 [FrankMcCabe]: yes. this was one of the biggest issues with parsing RDF properly
15:51:33 [Zakim]: +Mala_Mehrotra
15:51:36 [Hassan]: I share ChrisW's bafflement regarding the importance of issues regarding URI/IRI vs. symbols - whatever the vocabulary is will do!
15:51:43 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:51:43 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike_Dean, Dave_Reynolds, Harold, FrankMcCabe, Francois (muted), josb (muted), ChrisW, Allen_Ginsberg, PaulaP (muted), Hassan, DavidHirtle, Leora_Morgenstern
15:51:47 [Zakim]: ... (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), Axel_Polleres, johnhall (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), PaulVincent, MichaelKifer (muted), Gary_Hallmark, MarkusK (muted), csma (muted),
15:51:50 [Zakim]: ... Gerd_Wagner, josD (muted), Sandro, Mala_Mehrotra
15:51:53 [AxelPolleres]: What would hamper us from just reusing the rdf:resource and rdf:datatype as in RDF and wouldn't this solve the problem?
15:51:54 [mdean]: FrankMcCabe: better to use attributes than PCDATA
15:52:03 [mdean]: ... also allows entities and namespaces
15:52:05 [AxelPolleres]: ... in the XML syntax.
15:52:06 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
15:52:06 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:52:13 [mdean]: ... nothing to do with sorts
15:52:29 [GerdWagner]: GerdWagner has joined #rif
15:52:30 [GerdWagner]: q+
15:53:02 [sandro]: MichaelKifer: URIs are just another primitive datatype
15:53:03 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: a URI is yet another datatype - under old proposal, names of relations were not in the domain of constants - now handled as primitive datatypes
15:53:25 [FrankMcCabe]: this is *NOT* a type issue but a namespace issue!
15:53:34 [DaveReynolds]: +1 to Frank
15:53:35 [AxelPolleres]: q+
15:53:37 [mdean]: ... will explain in updated proposals
15:53:43 [mdean]: s/proposals/proposal/
15:53:44 [sandro]: q+ to say that URIs have two different roles here -- as data values and as names
15:53:59 [ChrisW]: q?
15:54:02 [mdean]: Chair: postpone further discussion until we see proposal
15:54:06 [ChrisW]: ack frank
15:54:12 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:54:12 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:54:30 [sandro]: rofl
15:54:31 [Hassan]: +1 Gerd!
15:54:38 [mdean]: Gerd: perhaps more appropriate to focus now on abstract syntax
15:54:51 [mdean]: Chair: guided discussion to XML syntax
15:54:55 [ChrisW]: ack gerd
15:55:08 [mdean]: Axel: will send email to Michael and Harold
15:55:18 [ChrisW]: ack axel
15:55:47 [mdean]: sandro: another half of question on URIs
15:56:00 [mdean]: ... URI as xsd:datatype (string with restricted syntax)
15:56:12 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
15:56:12 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:56:18 [mdean]: ... not as important as use of URI naming in RDF and OWL
15:57:34 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: URI datatypes won't help with naming - new proposal will eliminate distinction between relation functions and constants
15:57:57 [mdean]: ... can later add URI sort to identify relations, etc.
15:58:04 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:58:04 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:58:04 [ChrisW]: q?
15:58:10 [ChrisW]: ack sandro
15:58:10 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to say that URIs have two different roles here -- as data values and as names
15:58:10 [sandro]: q-
15:58:25 [mdean]: Chair: any other points about syntax?
15:58:39 [PaulVincent]: PaulVincent has joined #rif
15:58:48 [Francois]: bye
15:58:57 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
15:58:57 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:59:00 [mdean]: Gerd: email discussion re which kind of typing support to include in language - or should this be postponed?
15:59:04 [Zakim]: -Francois
15:59:18 [Harold]: q+
15:59:31 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: new proposal talks about primitive types, not complex types that can be constructed - a layer on top of primitive types
15:59:41 [mdean]: Chair: required to support XML datatypes
16:00:02 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: adding more complex datatypes is a can of worms and must be looked at very carefully
16:00:14 [Hassan]: q+
16:00:18 [AlexKozlenkov]: q+
16:00:23 [mdean]: Chair: OWL explicitly identified XML datatypes supported by language - this is a precedent
16:00:32 [PaulaP]: q?
16:01:00 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: likely proposals for even more complex data types - e.g. from Gerd and Frank
16:01:07 [AlexKozlenkov]: q-
16:01:16 [FrankMcCabe]: not all scalar datatypes are scalar!
16:01:18 [ChrisW]: ack harold
16:01:19 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
16:01:19 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:01:22 [mdean]: ... suggest delaying anything but primitive datatypes to phase 2
16:01:50 [GerdWagner]: q+
16:01:59 [mdean]: Harold: data element could carry type attribute for XML Schema datatypes
16:02:13 [mdean]: ... as part of bipartitioned constants
16:02:35 [ChrisW]: ack hassan
16:02:47 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
16:02:47 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer was already muted, MichaelKifer
16:02:55 [mdean]: Hassan: be careful not to reinvent the wheel
16:03:23 [mdean]: ... inventory what we need and then look at other W3C Recommendations and reuse if possible
16:04:05 [mdean]: ... annoyance at overly detailed trivialities
16:05:19 [sandro]: note the charter on datatypes: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/charter#datatype0
16:05:22 [AxelPolleres]: I think we should wait for Michael's and Harold's proposal, and then see, whether it is sufficiently reusing....
16:05:29 [mdean]: ... identify datatypes that we need for our purpose
16:05:33 [AxelPolleres]: and then discuss this further.
16:05:52 [GerdWagner]: +1 Hassan
16:06:12 [ChrisW]: ack gerd
16:06:21 [PaulaP]: +1 to Hassan's point
16:06:31 [sandro]: q+ to talk about charter on datatypes
16:06:45 [AxelPolleres]: q+
16:06:46 [mdean]: Gerd: without support for basic atom types we cannot support interchange between iLog full language and SWRL
16:07:03 [mdean]: ... need to type predicates and atoms (atomic formulae)
16:07:23 [Hassan]: q?
16:07:40 [mdean]: ... can support within Horn fragment - must be in core
16:08:04 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
16:08:04 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:08:11 [mdean]: ... support translation between OO rule languages and SWRL
16:08:32 [mdean]: Harold: XML attributes might do the job
16:08:55 [AxelPolleres]: q-
16:09:03 [mdean]: MichaelKifer: working in same vein as Gerd
16:09:23 [mdean]: ... proposal will discuss sorts rather than concrete datatypes
16:09:34 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
16:09:34 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:10:05 [mdean]: Chair: core language will not be sufficient for translating all rule languages - need extensions for complete translations
16:10:54 [csma]: but some fractions of useful RF into fractions of other useful RL; and maybe implement some useful rule interchange
16:11:03 [mdean]: ... core should include common features of many languages
16:11:38 [ChrisW]: q?
16:11:43 [mdean]: ... XML syntax focus for experimentation (also WG requirement)
16:11:43 [FrankMcCabe]: q+
16:11:43 [ChrisW]: ack sandro
16:11:44 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to talk about charter on datatypes
16:12:05 [Hassan]: q+
16:12:19 [mdean]: sandro: some people work better with abstract syntax, some with XML - need both
16:12:50 [ChrisW]: ack frank
16:12:57 [mdean]: ... phase 1 calls out specific XML datatypes we need to support
16:13:13 [sandro]: namely http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/charter#datatype0
16:13:32 [Harold]: q+
16:13:35 [mdean]: FrankMcCabe: risk is missing features that make extensions harder
16:14:36 [ChrisW]: ack hassan
16:14:38 [mdean]: ... have to think about this now even if we don't do anything now
16:15:33 [mdean]: Hassan: not denigrating XML - think it's important - we're using "syntax" carelessly
16:15:48 [sandro]: That's a fascinating question, ChrisW -- should there be some kind of requirement about how much extensions change or don't change the language?
16:15:58 [mdean]: ... XML desirable formalism to represent ASTs
16:16:20 [ChrisW]: hassan
16:16:24 [ChrisW]: wrap up
16:16:34 [csma]: ack csma
16:17:05 [csma]: zakim, mute me
16:17:05 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
16:17:22 [Hassan]: q?
16:17:37 [mdean]: Harold: preferable to use conditions, as in Michael's new proposal
16:17:42 [mdean]: zakim, next agendum
16:17:42 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "RIF-RAF" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:17:56 [mdean]: ACTION-148 continued
16:18:05 [mdean]: ACTION-149 continued
16:18:10 [PaulaP]: DONE
16:18:12 [mdean]: ACTION-150 completed
16:18:30 [AlexKozlenkov]: q+
16:18:33 [LeoraMorgenstern]: q+
16:18:39 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, unmute me
16:18:39 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
16:18:44 [mdean]: Chair: RIFRAF task force 2 weeks ago to develop OWL ontology
16:18:50 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, unmute me
16:18:50 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted
16:18:52 [ChrisW]: ack harold
16:18:54 [LeoraMorgenstern]: It was last week, not 2 weeks ago!
16:18:56 [ChrisW]: ack alex
16:19:07 [mdean]: Alex: more discussions with ?
16:19:27 [mdean]: s/?/JBOSS/
16:19:43 [mdean]: ... difficulties in following current RIFRAF
16:20:03 [mdean]: ... JBOSS includes accumulate construct
16:20:24 [mdean]: ... translation to rules would be inefficient and perhaps incorrect
16:20:50 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, mute me
16:20:50 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
16:20:52 [mdean]: ... need linkage between object representations and RIF
16:20:52 [ChrisW]: ack leora
16:20:54 [csma]: zakim, mute me
16:20:54 [Zakim]: csma was already muted, csma
16:21:25 [mdean]: Leora: 6 members on task force (Sandro, Axel, Hassan, Alan, Leora, ?)
16:21:31 [mdean]: ... telecon last week
16:22:00 [ChrisW]: ?=Frank
16:22:04 [GerdWagner]: zakim, mute me
16:22:04 [Zakim]: Gerd_Wagner should now be muted
16:22:07 [mdean]: ... construct OWL ontology of RIFRAF discriminators
16:22:21 [mdean]: ... divided discriminators among members
16:22:30 [mdean]: ... no timeframe yet (subject of discussion)
16:22:37 [mdean]: ... perhaps use Protege
16:23:15 [mdean]: ... will also provide commentary on current discriminator set - clarification
16:23:22 [AxelPolleres]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0036
16:23:28 [mdean]: ... integration of subontologies will be next task
16:24:06 [Allen]: no
16:24:12 [Hassan]: NO!
16:24:14 [mdean]: Chair: start by F2F4?
16:24:29 [mdean]: s/Alan/Allen/
16:24:48 [Hassan]: q+
16:25:12 [Hassan]: move on
16:25:17 [Hassan]: q-
16:25:23 [mdean]: zakim, next agendum
16:25:23 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:25:28 [johnhall]: zakim, unmute me
16:25:28 [Zakim]: johnhall should no longer be muted
16:25:56 [mdean]: John Hall posted update today
16:26:13 [johnhall]: zakim, mute me
16:26:13 [Zakim]: johnhall should now be muted
16:26:24 [mdean]: ACTION-131 continued, but nearly finished
16:26:36 [johnhall]: zakim, unmute me
16:26:36 [Zakim]: johnhall should no longer be muted
16:26:53 [mdean]: Allen complete
16:26:54 [johnhall]: zakim,mute me
16:26:54 [Zakim]: johnhall should now be muted
16:26:55 [csma]: continued
16:27:07 [Zakim]: -AlexKozlenkov
16:27:15 [mdean]: ACTION-145 complete, email sent
16:27:32 [mdean]: ACTION-146 complete
16:27:45 [mdean]: ACTION-147 continued
16:27:54 [mdean]: zakim, next agendum
16:27:54 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:27:59 [Zakim]: -Gary_Hallmark
16:28:00 [PaulaP]: bye
16:28:00 [Zakim]: -josb
16:28:00 [Zakim]: -MarkusK
16:28:03 [Zakim]: -DavidHirtle
16:28:04 [mdean]: Chair: adjourned
16:28:04 [Zakim]: -StellaMitchell
16:28:05 [Hassan]: #quit
16:28:06 [DavidHirtle]: DavidHirtle has left #rif
16:28:06 [Zakim]: -Dave_Reynolds
16:28:07 [Zakim]: -MichaelKifer
16:28:08 [Zakim]: -PaulaP
16:28:09 [Zakim]: -Axel_Polleres
16:28:10 [Zakim]: -Mala_Mehrotra
16:28:11 [Zakim]: -johnhall
16:28:13 [Zakim]: -PaulVincent
16:28:14 [Zakim]: -Sandro
16:28:16 [Zakim]: -Allen_Ginsberg
16:28:18 [Zakim]: -Hassan
16:28:20 [Zakim]: -josD
16:28:22 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
16:28:25 [Zakim]: -Harold
16:28:26 [Zakim]: -FrankMcCabe
16:28:27 [GerdWagner]: quit
16:28:28 [Zakim]: -Leora_Morgenstern
16:28:30 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
16:28:31 [ChrisW]: zakim, bye
16:28:32 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were Mike_Dean, Dave_Reynolds, FrankMcCabe, Harold, Francois, josb, ChrisW, Allen_Ginsberg, PaulaP, DavidHirtle, Hassan, Leora_Morgenstern,
16:28:35 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rif
16:28:36 [GerdWagner]: help
16:28:37 [Zakim]: ... StellaMitchell, Axel_Polleres, johnhall, AlexKozlenkov, Sandro, +44.186.561.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Gary_Hallmark, Mala_Mehrotra, MarkusK, PaulVincent, Gerd_Wagner, csma, josD
16:28:51 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:28:51 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/17-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:29:05 [MalaMehrotra]: bye
16:36:09 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has left #rif