13:01:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
13:01:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-irc
13:01:23 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF
13:01:31 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0034.html
13:01:35 <RalphS> Previous: 2006-10-09 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0021.html
13:01:39 <Zakim> SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
13:01:45 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
13:01:51 <Zakim> +Ralph
13:03:26 <EliasT> EliasT has joined #htmltf
13:03:35 <Steven> Steven has joined #htmltf
13:03:35 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
13:03:47 <RalphS> Scribe: Ralph
13:03:51 <Steven> j/m just noticed in time
13:03:57 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:03:57 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:03:58 <Zakim> +Steven
13:05:41 <Zakim> +Elias_Torres
13:06:07 <EliasT> Zakim, Elias_Torres is me
13:06:07 <Zakim> +EliasT; got it
13:06:47 <RalphS> zakim, take up agendum 1
13:06:47 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Action Item Review" taken up [from RalphS]
13:07:41 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: All to send Ben email giving times you are available for TF telecons [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:07:59 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben add striping support to bookmarklet to test new bnode support proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
13:08:14 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben move his live editor's draft to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.xml [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
13:08:48 <RalphS> Action: Ben announce new URIs for editors' drafts to TF
13:09:00 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben to draft message to the community describing the class proposal and explaining why we think it doesn't break existing uses [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
13:10:42 <RalphS> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:10:45 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2006/xhtml2.xml
13:10:55 <RalphS> Steven: a little more progress
13:11:02 <RalphS> -- in progress
13:11:53 <RalphS> Ben: wasn't Mark going to produce some more tests for the striping proposal?
13:12:18 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
13:12:21 <RalphS> -- continues
13:12:25 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
13:12:27 <RalphS> -- continuess
13:12:30 <RalphS> -- continues
13:12:37 <RalphS> ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
13:12:39 <RalphS> -- continues
13:13:30 <RalphS> move to next agendum
13:13:30 <Zakim> agendum 2. "New Bnode implementation" taken up [from RalphS]
13:13:42 <RalphS> Ben: implemented in latest bookmarklets
13:14:00 <Zakim> +??P10
13:14:10 <RalphS> ... implements @rel= w/o @href=
13:14:14 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
13:14:14 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
13:14:15 <RalphS> zakim, ??p10 is Mark
13:14:16 <Zakim> I already had ??P10 as MarkB_, RalphS
13:14:59 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support
13:15:56 <RalphS> Ben: current element with @rel becomes the object
13:16:39 <RalphS> s/object/subject for the contained statements/
13:17:25 <RalphS> Ben: there's an edge case if you put @about= and @rel on the same element w/o an @href=
13:17:43 <RalphS> ... you currently end up with subject and object being the same node
13:18:57 <RalphS> Steven: I haven't come across any counter-examples yet where this doesn't work
13:19:28 <RalphS> Ben: we should decide soon whether to include this in the next document drafts
13:19:51 <RalphS> move to next agendum
13:19:51 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Reification" taken up [from RalphS]
13:20:33 <RalphS> Ben: issues list was confused; I had written there that we were "thinking" of not including reification
13:20:45 <RalphS> ... but we did not resolve this question
13:21:09 <RalphS> Mark: my initial examples were the IPTC work where they wanted to be able to say _who_ wrote something
13:21:43 <RalphS> ... more recently, the i18n case came up
13:22:13 <RalphS> ... link @rel=x @href=y @title= requires putting the title in a child element
13:22:30 <RalphS> ... the title property must be a property of the link, not of the document
13:22:42 <RalphS> ... in RDF terms this seems to be a title of an RDF statement
13:22:52 <RalphS> Elias: reification is a double-headed monster
13:23:17 <RalphS> ... two ways to interpret reification: 1. as quoting, 2. as identification; "this is the statement"
13:23:42 <RalphS> ... I think the intention was more the former than the latter
13:24:49 <RalphS> ... there are long discussions on this question
13:25:11 <RalphS> ... it's not clearly a standard that you can name a statement and then start talking about that statement itself
13:25:27 <RalphS> Mark: I'd like to use the named graph approaches that are being discussed
13:25:39 <RalphS> Elias: SPARQL uses named graphs though they're not yet accepted
13:26:25 <RalphS> Mark: we want the name to apply to whatever the RDF community decides is meant
13:26:38 <RalphS> ... we want RDFa to specify this at a higher level
13:27:00 <RalphS> ... e.g. for IPTC we want the creator statement to say who is responsible for making the statement
13:27:23 <RalphS> Elias: I can't justify making reification a requirement when its specification is very unclear
13:27:38 <RalphS> q+ to note Web Content Labels as another use case
13:27:52 <EliasT> .. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2006Mar/0159.html
13:28:32 <RalphS> Elias: there is not a clear definition so people are reluctant to use reification
13:28:49 <RalphS> ... I'm not in favor of making this a requirement
13:29:29 <RalphS> Ben: I've heard similar feedback from the community as Elias
13:29:35 <RalphS> ... that reification is poorly specified
13:30:10 <RalphS> Mark: I think we should leave this issue open and come back to it
13:30:22 <RalphS> ... RDFa is different from RDF/XML in that we _do_ have an element that represents the triples
13:30:32 <RalphS> ... we have an element that is the object that carries the statement
13:30:47 <RalphS> ... RDF/XML does not have a node that carries the triples
13:31:01 <RalphS> ... since, for example, we do have a LINK element maybe we can make statements about the LINK element
13:31:16 <RalphS> Elias: yes, we have a better scenario to make use of this but it's still only a possibility
13:31:28 <RalphS> ... I do not use reification because of its cloudy definition
13:31:38 <RalphS> Mark: what if we call it something different?
13:31:52 <RalphS> Elias: we want to talk about who made the statement; e.g. provenance
13:32:06 <RalphS> ... we'd have the capability to add provenance to any statement on an HTML page?
13:32:08 <RalphS> Ben: right
13:32:39 <RalphS> Mark: I've often thought this could be harmonized; "who added these nodes to this document" and "who added this metadata to this document?"
13:32:57 <RalphS> Elias: couldn't we give a subject to the LINK and add a predicate directly to that subject?
13:33:17 <RalphS> ... if what we're pointing to is the element that contains the statement ...
13:33:24 <RalphS> ... but an element can contain more than one statement
13:33:46 <RalphS> Mark: but we still have a problem; what does it mean to add @title to a LINK? What is the subject of the title property?
13:34:07 <RalphS> ... it's not a property of the document or of the target @href, so title must be a property of something else
13:34:21 <benadida> Mark is looking at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0030.html
13:35:18 <RalphS> Ben: see <link rel="meta" title="ICRA" href="OurICRAPolicy.rdf" />
13:35:41 <RalphS> Mark: consider a blockquote with a child <meta property='site'>
13:35:54 <RalphS> ... we're all happy that this is a property of the blockquote
13:36:07 <Steven> s/site/cite/
13:36:13 <RalphS> ... can also be specified equivalently as <blockquote cite='x'>
13:37:32 <RalphS> ... if we say the @title= example works the same way, then the title property must be a property of the statement
13:38:30 <RalphS> Elias: are we trying to name a conceptual statement made by the link element or the link element itself?
13:39:06 <RalphS> Mark: @rel=bookmark is used by Opera and an @title= is used as a kind of label; the text to show to the user
13:39:25 <RalphS> ... <meta property='title' ...> is then a fantastic technique
13:39:48 <RalphS> Elias: what if the link has @rel=, @rev=, ... -- does the @title apply to all of the statements?
13:40:43 <MarkB_> <> _:meta <OurCrapPolicy.rdf> .
13:41:11 <MarkB_> s/_:meta/xh:meta/
13:41:35 <MarkB_> _:link0 xh:title "ICRA" .
13:42:07 <RalphS> Mark: the problem is that these two statements aren't connected
13:43:11 <RalphS> Ralph: it's possible that we coud assert that the document says  <> hx:link =:link0
13:43:21 <RalphS> s/hx:/xh:/
13:43:43 <RalphS> Elias: yes, if you want provenance you have to add all this yourself
13:43:55 <RalphS> s/=:/_:/
13:44:16 <RalphS> Elias: it's part of RDF to be able to express any relationships you want
13:44:38 <RalphS> Mark: we're saying that there are already existing HTML features and we want to specify what they mean [in RDF]
13:45:09 <RalphS> Elias: but we can create specific subjects on the fly and attach the properties to these without having to use reification
13:45:22 <RalphS> ... I'm wary of pursuing RDF reification
13:45:58 <RalphS> ... maybe meta is special
13:46:28 <RalphS> ... @rel, @ref, @href are special but properties like @title are properties of the link
13:46:59 <RalphS> ... attributes on the element are _attributes_ of the element
13:47:15 <RalphS> ... but we have another axis where both subject and object can be external to the document
13:47:37 <MarkB_> <> xh:link _:link0
13:47:38 <RalphS> ... the element itself is the concrete thing we have to which we can attach the title property
13:48:20 <MarkB_> _:link0 xh:rel xh:meta .
13:48:31 <MarkB_> _:link0 xh:title "ICRA" .
13:48:52 <MarkB_> _:link0 xh : subject <> .
13:49:07 <EliasT> ... http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/
13:49:09 <MarkB_> _:link0 xh : href  "OurCrapPolicy.href" .
13:49:28 <RalphS> Mark: the point of my example is that this really is reification
13:49:49 <RalphS> ... so we've just reinvented reification
13:50:15 <RalphS> Elias: it's not bad to reinvent reification
13:50:36 <RalphS> ... but the specific RDFS vocabulary [subject, predicate, object] is not well-defined
13:51:27 <RalphS> ... n-aryRelations uses a technique
13:52:07 <RalphS> ... RSS wants to say several things about 'content'; the content relation has several values
13:52:17 <RalphS> ... so RSS uses intermediate bnodes
13:53:21 <RalphS> ACTION: Elias summarize the reification discussion
13:53:29 <EliasT> .. http://ioctl.org/rdf/usementionmyarse
13:54:51 <RalphS> Mark: the n-aryRelation document has a note toward the end about reification
13:55:35 <RalphS> Ben: I'm willing to work on both primer and syntax documents this week
13:55:42 <RalphS> ack me
13:55:42 <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to note Web Content Labels as another use case
13:56:33 <benadida> Ralph: Elias is quite right that this is a long and complicated discussion
13:56:53 <benadida> ... Web Content Labels Incubator Group has the same use case: making statements like "who made this statement"
13:57:06 <benadida> ... Elias's summary will be very useful
13:57:32 <benadida> ... interested in the POV from implementors and theorists.
13:57:40 <benadida> ... at some point, the practice needs to take precedence
13:58:52 <RalphS> Ralph: I think it's complicated from a theoretical point of view but the application developers know exactly what they want the apps to do and we ought to be able to specify that
13:58:59 <RalphS> Ben: containers next week
13:59:05 <RalphS> [adjourned]
13:59:13 <Zakim> -Ralph
13:59:14 <Zakim> -Steven
13:59:14 <Zakim> -EliasT
13:59:16 <Zakim> -MarkB_
13:59:19 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
13:59:34 <Zakim> SW_SWD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
13:59:36 <Zakim> Attendees were Ben_Adida, Ralph, Steven, EliasT, MarkB_
14:00:10 <Steven> who is 'ioctl'?
14:00:24 <Steven> Jan someone
14:00:32 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make this record public
14:00:38 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:00:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
14:00:57 <benadida> benadida has left #htmltf
14:01:08 <RalphS> zakim, bye
14:01:08 <Zakim> Zakim has left #htmltf
14:01:13 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
14:01:13 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-actions.rdf :
14:01:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben announce new URIs for editors' drafts to TF [1]
14:01:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-irc#T13-08-48
14:01:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [2]
14:01:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-irc#T13-10-42
14:01:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07] [3]
14:01:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-irc#T13-12-18
14:01:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [4]
14:01:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-irc#T13-12-25
14:01:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [5]
14:01:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-irc#T13-12-37
14:01:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [6]
14:01:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-irc#T13-14-59
14:01:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Elias summarize the reification discussion [7]
14:01:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-irc#T13-53-21