13:59:53 RRSAgent has joined #ws-desc 13:59:53 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/12-ws-desc-irc 14:00:02 zakim, this is wsdl 14:00:02 ok, TonyR; that matches WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM 14:00:13 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:00:13 On the phone I see ??P14 14:00:20 zakim, ?? is me 14:00:20 +TonyR; got it 14:00:42 hi tony 14:01:12 I'm in an other meeting right now, but if Arthur and Jonathan shows up, I'm also interested in resolving my http action item 14:01:18 Jonathan has joined #ws-desc 14:02:07 trying to find a quiet spot with wireless. 14:02:23 +Canon 14:02:29 +Arthur_Ryman 14:03:02 + +1.408.480.aaaa 14:03:08 +Roland_Merrick 14:03:25 zakim, aaaa is Jonathan 14:03:25 +Jonathan; got it 14:03:47 jkaputin has joined #ws-desc 14:03:50 Arthur has joined #ws-desc 14:03:53 zakim, who's making noise? 14:04:07 Jonathan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TonyR (52%), Canon (19%), Roland_Merrick (36%) 14:04:34 +Plh 14:04:40 zakim, who's making noise? 14:04:54 Jonathan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 6 (20%), TonyR (43%), Plh (9%) 14:06:37 jjm has joined #ws-desc 14:07:29 jjm2 has joined #ws-desc 14:09:57 scribe: tonyr 14:10:29 plh: wanting help with action item - cannot see HTTP headers in the logs 14:11:33 arthur: showing the location of the HTTP headers, concerning good messages 14:12:28 arthur: we're using the WSI test tools 14:14:32 arthur: we're not catching the messages as XML, because the message may not be XML, or it may be well-formed XML 14:15:07 plh: should steal the code from the Addressing test tools that transforms the WS-I format into more useful format 14:15:34 plh: should be relatively easy because we're only interested in relatively few headers 14:22:30 lengthy discussion of logging details - need to switch logging on and off to isolate each test case, and whether it would be simpler to split the log ourselves. 14:23:42 plh: have enough information to proceed now 14:25:36 jonathan: in addressing we crafted tests in the form of X-Paths, here we have complex X-Paths 14:25:54 plh: but in addressing we didn't have a description - here we do 14:26:42 jjm has joined #ws-desc 14:27:15 arthur: we can use the Component Model Interchange format to provide the X-Paths 14:28:00 youenn has joined #ws-desc 14:28:46 plh: aim is to have the tools ready by the time of the ftf - just have to write the tests 14:29:10 jonathan: there's a lot of work there: every test will require a custom X-Path 14:29:21 arthur: what about using schematron? 14:29:29 pauld has joined #ws-desc 14:35:35 arthur: we need a format for the log file - can probably base it on the addressing work 14:36:33 youenn_ has joined #ws-desc 14:36:47 jonathan: need to tackle the question of running all the test cases into a single log file - much easier for testers, but harder to parse, because we need to be able separate the test cases 14:37:13 ... need to ensure that the test case id is embedded in the message 14:40:08 youenn has joined #ws-desc 14:43:46 arthur: we have the WSDL files for all of our tests - we can use them 14:44:10 jonathan: that's different from the addressing tests - only had one endpoint 14:45:16 arthur: we could play back a log file either as a client or as a server 14:46:49 jonathan: looking at an example - perhaps we can include some basic scripting for the tests in the WSDL file in some form other than comments 14:47:06 arthur: perhaps in the documentation, or in the test metadata? 14:47:46 jonathan: in the metadata would be good. Or perhaps we could simply say "run through the operations in the order in the WSDL file"? 14:49:26 arthur: volunteers to take on Jonathan's actions, allowing Jonathan to focus on how the ftf will run 14:49:49 -Roland_Merrick 14:50:03 This conference is scheduled to end in 10 minutes; all ports must be freed 14:50:17 plh: will get the log transformations done in 2 weeks 14:50:57 jonathan: does someone volunteer to write a change to the test metadata to incorporate scripting? 14:51:19 omnes: chirping crickets... 14:53:46 discussion of using the existing test metadata, particularly the "expected result" information 14:54:59 arthur: perhaps we can include assertions in the test metadata, perhaps even multiple assertions, to check the expected results 14:55:02 This conference is scheduled to end in 5 minutes; all ports must be freed 14:55:27 ACTION: Arthur to document how to add test cases, and how to run the scripts for the test cases 14:56:38 ACTION: ALL to ponder how to run the tests 14:57:23 Allen has joined #ws-desc 14:57:45 -Plh 14:57:46 -Arthur_Ryman 14:57:47 -TonyR 14:57:48 -Canon 14:57:50 WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM has ended 14:57:51 Attendees were TonyR, Canon, Arthur_Ryman, +1.408.480.aaaa, Roland_Merrick, Jonathan, Plh 14:58:11 zakim, this will be wsdwg 14:58:11 ok, TonyR; I see WS_DescWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 14:58:20 alewis has joined #ws-desc 14:59:29 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:59:29 apparently WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM has ended, TonyR 14:59:30 On IRC I see alewis, Allen, youenn, pauld, jjm, Arthur, Jonathan, RRSAgent, plh, Zakim, TonyR, sanjiva, charlton 14:59:49 zakim, list conferences 14:59:49 I see GA_WebCGM()11:00AM, Team_(validate)14:03Z, VB_VBWG()10:00AM, WS_DescWG()11:00AM, GA_SVGWG()9:30AM, MWI_BPWG()10:00AM, WAI_Team()10:45AM, XML_PMWG()11:00AM active 14:59:52 also scheduled at this time are I18N_Core_WG(WS-I18N)11:00AM, DIG_TAMI()11:00AM, WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM, SW_HCLS()11:00AM, DI_DIWG(dpf)10:00AM 15:00:02 zakim, this is WS_DescWG()11:00A 15:00:07 ok, plh; that matches WS_DescWG()11:00AM 15:00:22 JacekK has joined #ws-desc 15:00:26 zakim, ?? is me 15:00:29 +Plh 15:00:31 +TonyR; got it 15:01:10 TomJ has joined #ws-desc 15:01:17 +Jonathan 15:01:35 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:01:35 On the phone I see Amelia_Lewis, Charlton_Barreto, Canon, TonyR, Plh, Jonathan 15:01:42 +Arthur_Ryman 15:01:44 +Tom_Jordahl 15:03:31 + +1.351.250.aaaa 15:03:46 +??P52 15:03:55 zakim, aaaa is probably me 15:03:55 +JacekK?; got it 15:04:01 zakim, ??P52 is Allen 15:04:01 +Allen; got it 15:04:06 zakim, code? 15:04:06 the conference code is 97394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), pauld 15:05:05 +??P53 15:05:20 zakim, ??P53 is me 15:05:20 +pauld; got it 15:05:36 zakim, am i clicking? 15:05:37 I don't understand your question, pauld. 15:05:50 zakim, who is making noise? 15:06:01 pauld, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TonyR (19%), Jonathan (29%), Plh (10%), JacekK? (9%), pauld (39%) 15:06:05 scribe: pauld 15:06:15 Vivek has joined #ws-desc 15:06:24 zakim, who is making noise? 15:06:33 Topic: Administrivia 15:06:35 JacekK, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Amelia_Lewis (8%), Jonathan (49%), Plh (14%), JacekK? (8%) 15:06:47 last week's minutes approved 15:06:47 zakim, mute me 15:06:47 JacekK? should now be muted 15:06:58 +Roberto_Chinnici 15:07:10 +Vivek_Pandey 15:07:41 zakim, who is making noise? 15:07:52 TonyR, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jonathan (73%), pauld (44%) 15:08:22 discussion of the LC124 everlasting action 15:08:37 my second action fulfilled: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2006Oct/0006 15:08:38 ACTION: pdowney to review the Schema WG note on versioning in 1.1 15:08:58 zakim, unmute me 15:08:58 JacekK? should no longer be muted 15:09:51 Roberto has joined #ws-desc 15:09:57 +Gilbert_Pilz 15:10:17 chair: up and coming interop event logisitics and registration on our public page 15:10:58 s/chair/Marsh/ 15:11:04 gpilz has joined #ws-desc 15:11:16 Marsh: please note my Email address and affiliation has changef 15:11:24 s/gef/ged/ 15:11:56 http://www.w3.org/2006/10/interop2-logistic.html 15:13:09 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/wsdl_interop2/ 15:13:37 plh: will update registration to canvas opinion for a social event 15:13:59 Topic: Possible New Addressing Related Issue 15:14:23 arthur: looks like one for the Addressing WG 15:14:30 gil: they already got it 15:14:46 Topic: Features and Properties At Risk 15:15:31 youenn: sent a proposal, took the existing F&P for engaging MTOM and repurposed them for XML extensibility 15:16:48 .. reused the MTOM URI to namespace the extension element 15:16:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2006Oct/0011.html 15:17:20 Marsh: what does "optional" mean, didn't see an answer in the thread 15:17:45 youenn: a client may use HTTP headers such as content negotiation, server decides 15:17:56 q+ 15:18:13 .. same semantics as with the existing features and properties 15:18:25 Marsh: any interaction between wsdl:required? 15:18:45 youenn: yes, wsdl:required gives the required property optional value 15:19:31 Marsh: a client can ignore it, send text/xml, but server may return XOP which I can't digest 15:19:54 youenn: content negotiation may allow a client to preclude returning XOP 15:20:17 Marsh: multi-part encoded envelopes? 15:20:45 youenn: with content-negotiation, you can specify XOP, XML, or Multi-part related 15:21:06 Marsh: and then some people may want SwA .. 15:21:17 q+ 15:21:23 q?> 15:21:29 ack, Arthur 15:21:46 arthur: should be a WSDL namespace, rather than the XMP one 15:22:05 .. we're going to define a schema, we don't have the right to own that namespace 15:22:07 ack art 15:22:11 plh: we could ask permission 15:22:18 .. send them mail 15:22:35 ack rob 15:23:30 roberto: I'm perplexed by the optionality, even a client which doesn't know about the extension has to be aware of the negotiation. We're giving license to a server to suprise clients 15:23:50 q+ 15:24:12 Marsh: we need to add a statement to say, if you get text/xml then you have to explicity have marked XOP as an allowable returned media type 15:24:22 ack plh 15:24:25 youenn: required MTOM is very useful for output message 15:24:40 plh: why are we talking about content negotiation here 15:25:01 youenn: content-negotiation only applies to the output message 15:26:49 plh: thought optional marker means it isn't *required* 15:27:07 roberto: not the semantics of wsdl:required we've been using 15:28:13 youenn: two things: whether the client can send MTOM, and if the client has a choice to send and receive MTOM (that is support and engage) 15:29:05 youenn: we can make a refinement, need to think about it 15:29:34 Marsh: it's a tricky area, we may need a parameter rather than reusing wsdl:required 15:30:26 Marsh: we're discussing this under removing F&P, does this hold back our discussing removing F&P? 15:31:42 Marsh: not personally interested in adding this proposal, what are the implications of adding another element 15:32:00 jjm: it's not adding, but moving existing functionality 15:32:24 arthur: were the semantics with F&P clear of engaging MTOM, you'd still need another spec 15:32:38 youenn: that spec already exists 15:32:56 arthur: not for engaging in WSDL .20 15:33:03 s/.20/2.0/ 15:33:22 discussion of existing F&P engagement and wsdl:required 15:33:52 arthur: don't overload wsdl:required, add another attribute 15:34:12 Marsh: existing F&P engagement was clear? 15:34:31 Tony: it's becoming clear it wasn't clear 15:35:25 plh: WS-Policy may want to review this assertion 15:35:38 arthur: what's wrong with Canon using WS-Policy 15:35:55 jjm: WS-Policy isn't here now 15:35:56 q+ 15:36:05 Marsh: they may beat us, yet :-( 15:36:33 arthur: it's an adjunct? 15:36:38 ack jacek 15:36:45 plh: that may make WS-Policy happier 15:37:35 jacek: part line might be to use WS-Policy in which case our defining an XML extension might not be welcomed by the Policy WG 15:37:52 plh: asked the Policy WG, and they said it's fine 15:39:12 Marsh: it's more of an implementation thing, Microsoft, for example, are more interested in supporting usingAddressing inside WS-Policy and not direct extensions 15:39:27 s/not direct/not as a direct/ 15:39:57 Marsh: separate spec because it needs more work, may attract WS-Policy flak? 15:41:54 Marsh: (as WSO2 rep) I don't see this as being interoperable 15:42:26 Marsh: natural place for engaging MTOM in WSDL would be XMLP (if they were active) possibly Policy 15:43:00 plh: Policy are only chartered to build a framework, XMLP are in maintainance mode 15:43:13 jjm: and they're not interested in description 15:43:34 jacek: is that the XMLP not interested, or people in the WG not interested 15:43:42 s/ted/ted?/ 15:44:12 plh: they're not chartered to do more work beyond the PER 15:44:56 plh: it's going to happen here or not at all 15:45:48 pauld: is there interest in having a Web Services Core WG to pick up this kind of work? 15:46:21 plh: such a WG would be more for maintainance and not new work 15:46:57 discussion of how specs may be passed from WG to WG 15:47:24 chad has joined #ws-desc 15:48:06 chad: new poll 15:48:06 new poll 15:49:01 chad, option 0: close with no action 15:49:30 chad, option 1: remove F&P with no replacement for MTOM 15:50:01 chad, option 2: add Canon proposal as an adjunct 15:50:40 chad, option 3: add Canon proposal as a separate Last Call document 15:52:06 Marsh: the last call protects our main deliverable being stalled by comments from the WS-Policy WG 15:52:34 chad, option 4: define WS-Policy assertion 15:52:52 tom: opposed to being forced to support WS-Policy just to use MTOM 15:53:21 plh: this would be similar to usingAddressing, it can be used with policy 15:53:23 -Charlton_Barreto 15:54:36 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:54:36 On the phone I see Amelia_Lewis, Canon, TonyR, Plh, Jonathan, Arthur_Ryman, Tom_Jordahl, JacekK?, Allen, pauld, Roberto_Chinnici, Vivek_Pandey, Gilbert_Pilz 15:54:44 zakim, who is making noise? 15:54:54 pauld, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TonyR (9%), Tom_Jordahl (37%), JacekK? (20%) 15:55:19 zakim, am I making noise? 15:55:19 I don't understand your question, JacekK. 15:55:38 zakim, smoke me a kipper :-) 15:55:38 I'm glad that smiley is there, pauld 15:56:07 discussion clarifiing the options 15:56:27 zakim, who is making noise? 15:56:46 zakim, mute me 15:56:46 JacekK? should now be muted 15:58:11 Marsh: who decides if we have to go back to last call? 15:58:26 plh: the Director 15:58:48 tom: we had a clearly marked feature "At Risk" 15:59:21 plh: expect WS-Policy to want to review if we add an MTOM extension 16:00:10 zakim, unmute me 16:00:10 JacekK? should no longer be muted 16:00:17 chad, list options 16:00:31 jjm: there is precident with WS-Addressing, no? 16:01:47 plh: separate specification may be the easiest way 16:02:14 tom: makes a big difference, I might implement WSDL 2.0 and not be aware of the other specification 16:02:55 chad, option 4: add Canon proposal + define WS-Policy assertion in a separate LC document 16:03:06 chad, option4 define WS-Policy assertion in addition to Option 3 16:03:19 chad, option4: define WS-Policy assertion in addition to Option 3 16:03:23 vote 2 16:03:33 vote: tomj: 2 16:03:41 vote: 2 16:03:43 vote: 4,3,1 16:03:48 vote: 3, 2 16:03:49 vote: 4, 3, 1, 2, 0 16:03:52 vote: 1, 4, 3 16:03:52 vote: 3, 4, 2 0 16:04:00 vote: 2,4 16:04:01 vote: 4,3,1,2 16:04:04 zakim, mute me 16:04:04 JacekK? should now be muted 16:04:07 vote: 2,3,4 16:04:09 vote: 4, 3, 2, 1, 0 16:04:11 vote: 4,2,1 16:04:15 vote: 4, 3, 2, 1 16:04:17 vote: 4, 1 16:04:25 vote: 2, 4 16:04:33 vote: 2, 3, 4 16:04:33 vote: 4,3,2,1 16:05:04 chad, count 16:05:04 Question: unknown 16:05:04 Option 0: close with no action (0) 16:05:04 Option 1: remove F&P with no replacement for MTOM (1) 16:05:04 Option 2: add Canon proposal as an adjunct (4) 16:05:04 Option 3: add Canon proposal as a separate Last Call document (2) 16:05:05 Option 4: define WS-Policy assertion in addition to Option 3 (7) 16:05:08 14 voters: alewis (3,4,2,0),Allen (3,2),Arthur (4,3,2,1,0),gpilz (2,3,4),JacekK (4,3,1,2),jjm (2,4),Jonathan (1,4,3),pauld (4,1),plh (4,2,1),Roberto (4,3,2,1),TomJ (2,3,4),TonyR (4,3,1,2,0),Vivek (4,3,2,1),youenn (2,4) 16:05:10 Round 1: Count of first place rankings. 16:05:12 Round 2: First elimination round. 16:05:14 Eliminating candidadates without any votes. 16:05:16 Eliminating candidate 0. 16:05:18 Round 3: Eliminating candidate 1. 16:05:20 Candidate 4 is elected. 16:05:22 Winner is option 4 - define WS-Policy assertion in addition to Option 3 16:05:25 (capturing my earlier comment:) for the record, my company wants WSDL soon, MTOM support and cannot rely on WS-Policy yet 16:06:05 chad, detail? 16:06:15 chad, details? 16:06:22 chad, details 16:07:13 youenn_ has joined #ws-desc 16:07:29 +Charlton_Barreto 16:09:16 arthur: we can make an informative reference to WS-Policy 16:10:08 jjm: can we wait a week while we consider our position? 16:10:39 arthur: we're all agreed to remove F&P? 16:11:13 Marsh: we could remove F&P, if we have consensus to take option 2,3 or 4 16:11:23 jjm: let's do it next week 16:12:22 arthur: we decided to make a decision this week 16:12:53 .. what's the fall out from removing it, don't we need to take action to inform people 16:13:22 Tony: we could ask the editors to remove F&P ahead of the decision 16:13:33 arthur: don't want to branch 16:13:48 arthur: we're slipping week by week 16:14:05 jjm: it's a big decision and it takes time 16:14:40 arthur: how likely is it we are going to keep F&P? 16:15:22 Marsh: are there any objections to removing F&P this week on the understanding we'll use Youenn's proposal in some form 16:15:35 jjm: I'd object to making that decision today 16:16:29 arthur: I'm OK to wait ONE more week, but unhappy to delay any further than that 16:16:54 Marsh: we can formalize the process if we wait one more week 16:17:05 pauld: +1 to Arthur 16:17:16 I also support Arthur's desire to not put this off any longer 16:17:49 -Plh 16:17:51 q+ to add a short call for review for SAWSDL to the end of the agenda 16:18:11 -Amelia_Lewis 16:18:15 Topic: ISSUE-81 16:18:27 s/ISSUE-/CR/ 16:18:56 zakim, unmute me 16:18:56 JacekK? should no longer be muted 16:19:01 -Charlton_Barreto 16:20:37 "A Binding component that defines bindings for an Interface component 16:20:38 MUST define binding for all the faults of that Interface component that 16:20:38 are referenced from any of the operations in that Interface component." 16:20:43 http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/5/cr-issues/#CR081 16:21:02 s/CR81/CR081/ 16:21:31 +1 to Jaceks text 16:21:47 Marsh: any objections to accepting Jacek's proposal? 16:22:03 RESOLUTION: close CR081 with Jacek's proposal 16:22:08 This resolution generates a new assertion, no? 16:22:29 Topic: Last Call of SAWSDL 16:23:02 jacek: we'd like the WG to review our Last Call specification for Semantic Annotations for WSDL 16:23:04 ack 16:23:08 ack JacekK 16:23:08 JacekK, you wanted to add a short call for review for SAWSDL to the end of the agenda 16:23:46 http://www.w3.org/TR/sawsdl/ 16:24:34 ACTION: Jonathan to conduct a review of the SAWSDL Last Call WD 16:24:57 Marsh: expect to skip telcons as our issues list dries up 16:25:15 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:25:21 -Gilbert_Pilz 16:25:24 -Arthur_Ryman 16:25:33 RRSAgent, generate minutes 16:25:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/12-ws-desc-minutes.html pauld 16:25:44 alewis has left #ws-desc 16:25:50 -Tom_Jordahl 16:25:52 TomJ has left #ws-desc 16:25:52 -Jonathan 16:25:53 -Allen 16:25:54 -pauld 16:25:56 -JacekK? 16:25:57 -Canon 16:25:59 -Roberto_Chinnici 16:26:00 -TonyR 16:26:02 TonyR has left #ws-desc 16:27:24 -Vivek_Pandey 16:27:26 WS_DescWG()11:00AM has ended 16:27:27 Attendees were Amelia_Lewis, Charlton_Barreto, Canon, Plh, TonyR, Jonathan, Arthur_Ryman, Tom_Jordahl, +1.351.250.aaaa, JacekK?, Allen, pauld, Roberto_Chinnici, Vivek_Pandey, 16:27:29 ... Gilbert_Pilz 16:28:15 Meeting: WS Description WG telcon 16:28:20 Chair: Jonathan 16:28:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:28:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/12-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan 16:32:11 Vivek has left #ws-desc 18:35:44 Zakim has left #ws-desc 19:26:33 sanjiva_ has joined #ws-desc