13:57:48 RRSAgent has joined #rif 13:57:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/10-rif-irc 13:57:52 Zakim has joined #rif 13:58:01 zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-rif-agenda.rdf 13:58:01 working on it, ChrisW 13:58:02 done reading agenda, ChrisW 13:58:10 zakim, agenda? 13:58:10 I see nothing on the agenda 13:58:59 agenda+ ADMIN 13:59:08 agenda+ F2F 13:59:13 agenda+ Liason 13:59:18 agenda+ UCR 13:59:31 agenda+ RIF-RAF 13:59:40 agenda+ Design 13:59:45 agenda+ AOB 13:59:56 agenda? 14:00:41 zakim, save agenda world-access 14:00:47 ok, ChrisW, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/10-rif-agenda.rdf 14:01:31 Meeting: RIF Telecon 10 Oct 06 14:01:47 Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie 14:02:09 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0021.html 14:03:12 sandro? 14:03:22 rrsagent, make minutes 14:03:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/10-rif-minutes.html ChrisW 14:03:43 rrsagent, make logs public 14:37:19 Zakim, agenda? 14:37:19 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 14:37:22 1. ADMIN [from ChrisW] 14:37:24 2. F2F [from ChrisW] 14:37:25 3. Liason [from ChrisW] 14:37:26 4. UCR [from ChrisW] 14:37:28 5. RIF-RAF [from ChrisW] 14:37:29 6. Design [from ChrisW] 14:37:31 7. AOB [from ChrisW] 14:37:42 Thanks, Mr. Zakim. 14:39:08 ChrisW, you were looking for me 14:39:10 ChrisW, you were looking for me? 14:44:03 patranja has joined #rif 14:46:13 hi sandro 14:46:25 hey ChrisW 14:46:26 can you make http://www.w3.org/2006/10/10-rif-agenda.rdf accessible 14:47:23 Done. (it may take a minute to take effect) 14:50:01 DavidHirtle has joined #rif 14:51:09 ChrisW has changed the topic to: 10 Oct Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0021.html 14:54:44 AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif 14:54:45 it's asking me for "W3CACL" password 14:54:58 do I have one? It doesn't seem to be my normal W3 passwd 14:55:17 zakim, this will be rif 14:55:17 ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 14:55:39 That should be your normal w3c password, ChrisW, yes 14:56:00 It's asking for that when you try to get http://www.w3.org/2006/10/10-rif-agenda.rdf ??? 14:56:07 y 14:56:14 That makes no sense. 14:56:24 Try shift-reload or something. 14:56:52 i tried reload, what is shift-reload? 14:57:26 Francois has joined #rif 14:57:27 josb has joined #rif 14:57:32 reload and shift-reload have slightly different cache semantics. I don't remember the exact difference, but shift-reload is better if there's a bug. 14:57:47 Hassan has joined #rif 14:57:50 csma has joined #rif 14:58:00 in firefox shift-ctrl-r? 14:58:07 I think reload will still use caches when it's pretty sure the cache copy should be good; shift-reload says to assume the caches are broken. 14:58:11 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 14:58:16 +josb 14:58:25 FrankMcCabe has joined #rif 14:58:29 in firefox (and all mozilla's) I hold down shift key while clicking the reload button. 14:58:32 Harold has joined #rif 14:58:37 its still asking me for a password, but its giving me the page anyway 14:58:49 +[IPcaller] 14:58:50 (it may have been doing that all along) 14:58:52 DaveReynolds has joined #rif 14:58:53 zakim, ipcaller is me 14:58:53 +FrankMcCabe; got it 14:59:06 +[LMU] 14:59:15 +??P14 14:59:21 Ah -- I know the problem, Chris. I'll ping Ralph about it. 14:59:23 zakim, ??P14 is me 14:59:23 +csma; got it 14:59:30 +[IBM] 14:59:44 +??P18 14:59:46 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:59:46 +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P18) 14:59:47 On the phone I see josb (muted), FrankMcCabe, PaulaP (muted), csma, [IBM], Dave_Reynolds 14:59:48 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 14:59:48 +ChrisW; got it 14:59:56 +[NRCC] 14:59:57 pfps has joined #rif 15:00:04 +??P16 15:00:06 +??P25 15:00:07 Scribe: Dave Reynolds 15:00:15 zakim, ??P16 is me. 15:00:15 +Francois; got it 15:00:18 zakim, [NRCC] is me 15:00:18 +Harold; got it 15:00:24 scribenick: DaveReynolds 15:00:24 scribenick: DaveReynolds 15:00:29 +??P26 15:00:29 zakim, mute me. 15:00:30 Francois should now be muted 15:00:37 zakim, ??p26 is me 15:00:37 +pfps; got it 15:00:41 igor has joined #rif 15:00:48 zakim, who speaks. 15:00:48 I don't understand 'who speaks', Francois 15:00:57 JeffP has joined #rif 15:01:01 -ChrisW 15:01:02 oop[s 15:01:04 zakim, who is speaking? 15:01:13 +Sandro 15:01:15 csma, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (11%) 15:01:29 +[IPcaller] 15:01:31 zakim, who is speaking? 15:01:43 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 15:01:43 Francois, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P25 (70%), [IPcaller] (51%) 15:01:47 +igor; got it 15:01:52 zakim, mute me 15:01:52 igor should now be muted 15:02:00 zakim, who is on the call? 15:02:00 On the phone I see josb (muted), FrankMcCabe, PaulaP (muted), csma, Dave_Reynolds, Harold, Francois (muted), ??P25, pfps, Sandro, igor (muted) 15:02:07 SaidTabet has joined #RIF 15:02:17 +??P42 15:02:22 +[IPcaller] 15:02:22 Zakim, what is the code ? 15:02:23 the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), MoZ 15:02:28 +[IBM] 15:02:35 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 15:02:35 +ChrisW; got it 15:02:39 zakim, ??P42 is me 15:02:39 +AlexKozlenkov; got it 15:02:47 zakim, mute me 15:02:47 AlexKozlenkov should now be muted 15:02:48 StellaMitchell has joined #rif 15:02:52 Allen has joined #rif 15:02:53 +??P46 15:02:53 johnhall has joined #rif 15:02:54 GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif 15:02:58 Zakimn ??P46 is me 15:03:00 PaulVincent has joined #rif 15:03:04 +??P44 15:03:11 Zakim, ??P25 if Francois 15:03:11 I don't understand '??P25 if Francois', sandro 15:03:11 Zakim, ??P46 is me 15:03:13 +MoZ; got it 15:03:19 Zakim, ??P25 is FrancoisB 15:03:20 +FrancoisB; got it 15:03:21 zakim, ??P44 is me 15:03:21 +SaidTabet; got it 15:03:28 zakim, mute me 15:03:28 SaidTabet should now be muted 15:03:30 zakim, who is on the call? 15:03:30 On the phone I see josb (muted), FrankMcCabe, PaulaP (muted), csma, Dave_Reynolds, Harold, Francois (muted), FrancoisB, pfps, Sandro, igor (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), 15:03:33 ... DavidHirtle, ChrisW, MoZ, SaidTabet (muted) 15:03:37 +Allen_Ginsberg 15:03:39 +[IBM] 15:03:47 zakim, unmute francois 15:03:47 Francois should no longer be muted 15:03:52 zakim, mute me 15:03:52 Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted 15:03:52 zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me 15:03:53 +StellaMitchell; got it 15:03:59 +[IPcaller] 15:04:05 +GiorgosStoilos 15:04:14 I dont know who I am 15:04:18 yes 15:04:18 zakim, +[IPCaller] is me 15:04:24 zakim, who is on the call? 15:04:25 sorry, PaulVincent, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPCaller]' 15:04:33 On the phone I see josb (muted), FrankMcCabe, PaulaP (muted), csma, Dave_Reynolds, Harold, Francois, FrancoisB, pfps, Sandro, igor (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), DavidHirtle, 15:04:35 Zakim, IPCaller is me 15:04:36 ... ChrisW, MoZ, SaidTabet (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), [IPcaller], GiorgosStoilos 15:04:37 zakim, Francois is Hassan 15:04:40 +[IPcaller.a] 15:04:42 +PaulVincent; got it 15:04:44 +Hassan; got it 15:04:56 zakim, ipcaller.a is me 15:04:56 +johnhall; got it 15:04:56 zakim, who is on the call? 15:04:57 On the phone I see josb (muted), FrankMcCabe, PaulaP (muted), csma, Dave_Reynolds, Harold, Hassan, FrancoisB, pfps, Sandro, igor (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), DavidHirtle, 15:04:58 zakim, please mute me. 15:05:00 ... ChrisW, MoZ, SaidTabet (muted), StellaMitchell (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), PaulVincent, GiorgosStoilos, johnhall 15:05:02 FrancoisB should now be muted 15:05:07 zakim,mute me 15:05:07 johnhall should now be muted 15:05:09 zakim, FrancoisB is Francois 15:05:10 +Francois; got it 15:05:22 ack ??P25 15:05:26 ack Hassan 15:05:43 MalaMehrotra has joined #rif 15:06:05 19 Sept minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/att-0016/19-rif-minutes.html 15:06:27 9/26 minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/att-0009/26-Sept-rif-minutes-c.html 15:06:30 Approved 9/19 telecon minutes 15:06:36 +Mala_Mehrotra 15:06:44 Approved 9/26 telecon minutes 15:06:50 10/3 minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/att-0011/03-rif-minutes.html 15:07:03 Approved 10/3 telecon minutes 15:07:49 Topic: F2F 15:08:20 zakim, next agendum 15:08:20 agendum 1. "ADMIN" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:08:26 zakim, close agendum 1 15:08:26 agendum 1, ADMIN, closed 15:08:27 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:08:28 zakim, next agendum 15:08:28 2. F2F [from ChrisW] 15:08:29 agendum 2. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:08:31 +??P54 15:09:15 GaryHallmark has joined #rif 15:09:17 Christian invetigation of f2f6 co-location with WWW07 in Bampf, kept open for now 15:09:20 +LeoraMorgenstern 15:09:47 Hassan - all hotels for f2f4/ISWC are booked up 15:09:57 +Gary_Hallmark 15:10:10 pfps - Holiday Inn should be OK, just Geogia Center full 15:10:41 zakim, next agendum 15:10:41 agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:10:47 Nothing on SBVR 15:11:29 Chris to Sandro: any responses on f2f6 and 7? 15:11:44 Correction 5 & 6 15:11:50 No responses other than Jos 15:11:57 q+ 15:12:13 Christian: encourages volunteers to organize f2f5 and f2f6 15:12:26 ack harold 15:13:12 Harold: RuleML workshop early registeration price will be kept open for WG members 15:13:22 s/registeration/registration/ 15:13:43 Christian: what about people who have already paid? 15:13:46 zakim, unmute me 15:13:46 SaidTabet should no longer be muted 15:14:13 Said: will sort something about that 15:14:21 I also paid full price 15:14:31 zakim, mute me 15:14:31 SaidTabet should now be muted 15:15:02 Christian: draft f2f4 agenda before end of next week 15:15:09 zakim, who is talking? 15:15:19 ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (49%), LeoraMorgenstern (39%) 15:15:30 zakim, mute leoramorgenstern 15:15:30 LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted 15:15:34 zakim, next agendum 15:15:34 agendum 4. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:16:14 action 131 continued 15:16:14 zakim, unmute me 15:16:14 Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted 15:16:24 zakim, unmute me 15:16:24 johnhall should no longer be muted 15:16:30 q? 15:16:59 action 132 - done and updated write up but awaiting feedback, action continued 15:17:09 zakim, mute me 15:17:09 johnhall should now be muted 15:17:45 action 133 - done 15:18:45 LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif 15:18:58 ACTION-132 15:19:24 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/actions/132 15:19:53 zakim, mute me 15:19:53 LeoraMorgenstern was already muted, LeoraMorgenstern 15:20:30 Sandro: use syntax ACTION-nn in emails and irc and they will be cross referenced automatically on the tracker 15:20:50 ACTION-132 - done and updated write up but awaiting feedback, action continued 15:20:57 ACTION-133 - done 15:21:03 yes 15:21:19 ACTION-105 - continued 15:21:32 q? 15:21:32 ACTION-106 - same action as 105 15:23:21 Frank: use cases 4 & 5 were different,new draft of 4 is futher distinguished 15:23:24 -Mala_Mehrotra 15:23:31 zakim, unmute me 15:23:31 johnhall should no longer be muted 15:24:19 Frank: now satisfied that the two use cases are clearly distinct and the "merge" action should be dropped 15:24:58 zakim, mute me 15:24:58 johnhall should now be muted 15:25:09 Christian: once new draft is published let anyone who disagrees speak up 15:26:14 Christian: propose to close ISSUE-3 base on Frank's proposal 15:26:26 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Sep/0067.html 15:26:52 No objection, ISSUE-3 closed 15:28:19 Christian: minutes covering compliance model accepted 15:28:22 -LeoraMorgenstern 15:29:04 Frank: has re-established link between compliance requirement and interoperability CSF 15:29:14 Resolved: ISSUE-4 closed 15:29:17 +??P29 15:29:29 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Goals 15:29:35 zakim, P29 is me 15:29:35 sorry, LeoraMorgenstern, I do not recognize a party named 'P29' 15:29:42 zakim, ??P29 is me 15:29:42 +LeoraMorgenstern; got it 15:29:47 zakim, mute me 15:29:47 LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted 15:31:24 ISSUE-6, only outstanding part is 2 which just depends on ACTION-125 15:32:29 Christian: ACTION-125 was closed before as result of ChrisW email but Frank had response to the email ... 15:32:57 Chris: tried to keep requirements succinct and differentiated 15:33:12 q? 15:33:30 Frank: implementability isn't just from the point of view of the engineer, also customer deployment costs 15:34:06 Frank: so it's stronger then just "no research" 15:34:44 Chris: doesn't disagree but kept succinct for uniformity with other requirements 15:35:19 Chris: not a bad idea to add expanded text ... somewhere 15:35:43 Resolved: ISSUE-6 closed 15:37:03 Christian: propose to close ISSUE-7.3 since we have actions to do such linking between UC and Requirements 15:37:20 Keep open until these links have been completed. 15:38:22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Sep/0066.html 15:38:29 Resolved: ISSUE-13 closed 15:39:14 q? 15:39:37 Looking at ISSUE-5.3 which relates to UC 2.4 and 2.5 ... 15:40:06 Frank: 2.5 now recast to trading business rules, very different to supply chain scenario 15:40:41 Christian: close actions and issues together when new text is posted 15:41:34 Christian: now look at ISSUE-22 - coverage ... 15:42:14 csma's message on coverage: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0000.html 15:42:40 Christian: email discussion on this with proposal to have standalone formal specification 15:42:53 Allen: proposed informal definition seems reasonable 15:43:27 No objections to this 15:43:36 Formal definition will be in the technical spec 15:43:57 MichaelKifer has joined #rif 15:44:01 Action: Allen propose text for the informal definition of covers 15:44:01 Created ACTION-143 - Propose text for the informal definition of covers [on Allen Ginsberg - due 2006-10-17]. 15:44:49 Christian: keep ISSUE-22 open until text is agreed 15:45:20 Christian: ISSUE-12 not forgotten, want to come back to this with sufficient time to discuss properly, will have email follow up on this 15:45:52 Linking UC and requirements ... 15:46:21 UC2, UC3, UC7 done 15:47:16 Look at each UC in turn to see if any objections ... 15:47:33 UC1: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Discussion_of_UC1_-_Negociating_eBusiness_Contracts_Across_Rule_Platforms 15:48:19 Christian: also have specific sections in UC1 on processing model and benefits of RIF 15:48:31 Christian: do we replicate this structure across the others? 15:49:09 Christian: is an abstraction and discussion of the processing model useful for each use case? or a section analysing the processing model for each? 15:49:27 Christian: thinks there should be a section in UCR discussing the processing models 15:50:04 Frank: processing models may be of interest but a significant burden to do this, significant overlap in processing models 15:50:49 Chris: useful to have but models too similar to replicate discussion in each section, exercise of clarifying may be illuminating 15:51:18 Christian: so maybe don't put the text in each but have a separate section on processing models and how they map to the UCs 15:51:39 Call for volunteers? 15:52:11 Action: csma draft UCR section on processing models 15:52:11 Sorry, couldn't find user - csma 15:52:24 q? 15:52:34 Action: Christian draft UCR section on processing models 15:52:34 Created ACTION-144 - Draft UCR section on processing models [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2006-10-17]. 15:52:36 Chris and Gary, for the telecon last week, I did the linking of Gary's UC9: BPEL Orchestration of Rule-Based Web Services. The wiki's "Info" diffs don't show further changes. Gary, are you fine with those links or could you just modify them from your BPEL point of view? 15:53:22 Christian: should the benefits of RIF be pulled out in a specific sub-section of each UC? 15:53:41 Chris: they do mostly cover the topic, even if not pulled out 15:53:52 Allen: perhaps a separate section again? 15:55:03 MichaelKifer has joined #rif 15:55:39 Action: Allen investigate whether RIF benefits can be extracted into a separate section or whether additional input from UC authors would be needed 15:55:41 Created ACTION-145 - Investigate whether RIF benefits can be extracted into a separate section or whether additional input from UC authors would be needed [on Allen Ginsberg - due 2006-10-17]. 15:57:00 Allen: need to agree which requirements are universal (semantic precision, implementability?) and need not be mentioned in each UC 15:57:36 Christian: do need to include semantic precision to justify why a syntax-only RIF is not sufficient 15:58:05 Christian: but implementability could go in the motivated-by-charter category 15:59:03 No objections to UC1 pending modification 15:59:07 q? 15:59:35 Now looking at UC2 ... 16:00:21 Paula: didn't justify rule language coverage in detail, is this a problem? 16:01:25 Paula: some others have done detailed RIFRAF links, is that needed? 16:02:03 Christian: useful yes, if there is clear requirements from this UC 16:02:20 q? 16:03:00 Paula: delete old links? 16:03:17 Allen: what about the objections that are documented in those links? 16:03:32 zakim, unmute me 16:03:32 LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted 16:03:44 pfps: (as raiser of the objections in that case) satistifed the way things are at the moment 16:04:01 Now looking at UC6 ... 16:04:22 Leora: wants to improve further 16:04:31 Now looking at UC8 ... 16:04:38 zakim, please mute me 16:04:38 LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted 16:05:26 Christian: mentions "limited number of dialects" but does not justify 16:06:53 Action: DaveReynolds add argument to support "limited number of dialects" in UC8 16:06:53 Sorry, couldn't find user - DaveReynolds 16:07:13 Action:Reynolds add argument to support "limited number of dialects" in UC8 16:07:28 Action: Reynolds add argument to support "limited number of dialects" in UC8 16:07:28 Created ACTION-146 - Add argument to support \"limited number of dialects\" in UC8 [on Dave Reynolds - due 2006-10-17]. 16:07:48 Now looking at UC9 ... 16:08:10 -GiorgosStoilos 16:08:34 Christian: re-coverage isn't decidability out of scope of RIF? 16:09:39 Christian: this plus things like Sem3, Prag2 are properties of the rule languages should not be part of RIF, RIF should be able to interchange undecidable rulesets 16:10:08 Harold: it is still a point in the RIFRAF space 16:10:54 Harold: if RIF can make it clear a rulebase is a datalog rule base (for example) then it simplifies knowing ruleset is decideable 16:11:42 Christian: so use case motivates decidable rule language 16:14:01 DaveR: asks for more justification on Syn 5 16:14:24 Harold: suitable for cases of incomplete data, where positional notation would break or need lots of nulls 16:16:14 Action Gary: add production rule coverage where it belongs, but at least in UC9 and UC1 16:16:25 Some news, JBoss's Mark Proctor will be filling out the RIFRAF questionnaire so my action point should be now closed. 16:16:29 Action: Gary add production rule coverage where it belongs, but at least in UC9 and UC1 16:16:29 Created ACTION-147 - Add production rule coverage where it belongs, but at least in UC9 and UC1 [on Gary Hallmark - due 2006-10-17]. 16:16:39 Action 87: I (hak) have been and will be traveling and so have been unable to fulfill it yet - so action 87 is continued. 16:16:42 zakim, next agendum 16:16:42 agendum 5. "RIF-RAF" taken up [from ChrisW] 16:16:52 zakim, unmute me 16:16:52 LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted 16:17:13 zakim, unmute me 16:17:13 AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted 16:17:34 [Gary] Production rule and ECA rule coverage is also in UC 3 16:18:16 Alex: ACTION-89 should not be closed because Jboss will fill questionnaire themselves 16:18:22 s/not/now/ 16:19:09 Alex: will investigate XUL further and might come back to this part, but drop action 16:19:31 zakim, mute me 16:19:31 AlexKozlenkov should now be muted 16:20:00 igor has joined #rif 16:20:08 Leora: starting organizing RIFRAF ontology task force 16:20:22 q? 16:20:37 Hassan: is the task force open to volunteers? 16:21:07 Hassan: would like to contribute 16:21:24 Leora: mail should be open to everyone 16:21:32 ACTION-139 completed 16:21:55 regarding the questionnaire --- yes, 16:22:00 I'll try to fill it out for XChange 16:22:02 am supposed to fill this out too, but I haven't yet 16:22:08 zakim, unmute me 16:22:08 AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted 16:22:15 Christian: will there we more replies to questionnaire? 16:22:25 q+ 16:22:38 We intend to have one from SBVR, but people are busy 16:23:05