IRC log of databinding on 2006-10-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:25:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #databinding
07:25:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to
07:25:49 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:25:49 [Zakim]
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07:25:51 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DBWG
07:25:51 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, trackbot
07:25:52 [trackbot]
Meeting: Databinding WG Teleconference
07:25:52 [trackbot]
Date: 06 October 2006
07:26:14 [pauld]
Chair: pauld
07:26:20 [pauld]
Scribe: pauld
07:29:01 [JonC]
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07:29:16 [pauld]
Topic: Recap
07:30:46 [pauld]
pauld: ok, so we have 10 Issues remaining, 3 Basic, 2 Testsuite
07:31:05 [pauld]
pauld: we need people to raise Advanced issues, well contribute patterns
07:32:21 [pauld]
pauld: Topics
07:32:23 [pauld]
- Introductory Text
07:35:53 [pauld]
- Detection of Patterns
07:35:55 [pauld]
- Publication of Logs
07:36:51 [pauld]
ACTION: ylafon to write introduction to the Test suite text including a Disclaimer and how to deal with mistakes
07:36:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-72 - Write introduction to the Test suite text including a Disclaimer and how to deal with mistakes [on Yves Lafon - due 2006-10-13].
07:38:52 [pauld]
pauld: we should publish our test suite logs and call for logs from third parties
07:39:42 [pauld]
pauld: - Review Issues for missing examples and patterns
07:44:09 [pauld]
Topic: Detection of Patterns
07:44:57 [pauld]
gcowe: patterns.xml covers components, but not combinations of components
07:45:32 [pauld]
.. unclear if we need to do a second pass
07:48:03 [pauld]
pauld: so what happens if a schema contains a valid component in an unusual place (struggles for a realistic example)
07:49:13 [pauld]
pauld: let's walk though this
07:50:28 [pauld]
ACTION: pdowney to write a patterns and examples.xml to HTML transform
07:50:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-73 - Write a patterns and examples.xml to HTML transform [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-13].
07:55:39 [JonC]
ACTION: pdowney to remove editorial attribute from patterns.xml
07:55:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-74 - Remove editorial attribute from patterns.xml [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-13].
08:02:45 [pauld]
pauld: we need a better rollup report of the patterns in our examples documentss
08:02:56 [pauld]
08:03:39 [pauld]
ACTION: pdowney to generate a rollup report for classification of our examples
08:03:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-75 - Generate a rollup report for classification of our examples [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-13].
08:04:07 [pauld]
gcowe: when I run the processor on our schema catchall fires all the time
08:04:13 [pauld]
pauld: so what's broken?
08:05:32 [pauld]
pauld: is it because catchalls are firing along with basic patterns, or the catchalls indicate we don't have enough patterns to cover your schemas?
08:09:17 [pauld]
gcowe: redefine is catchall, for example
08:09:30 [pauld]
pauld: let's gloablly replace 'catchall' with 'pending'
08:10:10 [pauld]
jonc: we need to document our buckets
08:11:15 [pauld]
gcowe: substitutionGroups fires as catchall
08:11:38 [pauld]
pauld: ok we need to ensure we have patterns.xml statements for all our closed issues
08:12:33 [pauld]
pauld: we need to dog-food our processor on our examples
08:26:21 [pauld]
pauld: two pass comes from our use of Schematron
08:26:53 [pauld]
pauld: maybe we could write some code to taint nodes touched by an XPath, then look for untainted nodes
08:28:01 [pauld]
yves: alternative approach is to traverse the XML bottom-up start a leaf nodes and try to recognise patterns for leaf nodes applying pattern detection for each new subtree
08:28:40 [pauld]
pauld: does that mean writing our patterns in a different way, not XPath?
08:28:48 [pauld]
yves: no
08:29:36 [pauld]
pauld: let a 1000 flowers bloom!
08:30:25 [pauld]
ACTION: ylafon to investigate alternative approach to pattern detection
08:30:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-76 - Investigate alternative approach to pattern detection [on Yves Lafon - due 2006-10-13].
08:35:02 [pauld]
pauld: so are we happy with our approach, well two approaches?
08:35:07 [gcowe]
george: two phase detection of patterns -
08:35:40 [gcowe]
george : use schematron with multiple rules in first phase - as is
08:36:59 [gcowe]
george : in second phase - use schematron with one rule containing paths detected from first phase, with a catchall for anything else
09:09:04 [pauld]
pauld: this approach doesn't tell you what is causing the failure, ok for our validation but for a W3C hosted validator we may need more work
09:09:18 [pauld]
Topic: Introductory Text
09:09:42 [pauld]
Working Group indulges in wordsmithing by committee
09:39:05 [Zakim]
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10:26:14 [JonC]
try this "Different databinding tools support different subsets of XML schema 1.0 and even their support of common aspects of XML Schema is often inconsistent, resulting in interoperability issues:"
10:26:42 [pauld]
pauld: and that's better than "Different databinding tools fail to consume different aspects of XML Schema 1.0 differently." ??
10:26:50 [Yves]
Also, there may be multiplt ways of expressing the same data structures using XML schema, and databinding tools may choose to implement only one or more ways, but not all of them, leading also to interoperability issues
10:26:52 [JonC]
I think so
10:27:50 [JonC]
compromise "Different databinding tools support different aspects of XML Schema 1.0 differently."
10:30:35 [gcowe]
or "Its fair to say that most databinding tools support XML Schema 1.0 features in inconsistent ways which leads to interoperability issues" - no differents at all!!
12:18:13 [pauld]
Topic: ISSUE-71 Relationship with WS-I Basic Profile
12:19:10 [pauld]
pauld: we'd like the BP to be able to cite us, and so we have restrictions such as encoding and schemaLocation to make sure that can happen.
12:19:23 [pauld]
.. but do we need to do more in terms of our spec
12:19:58 [pauld]
yves: may be IP issues in a normative reference
12:20:25 [pauld]
george: we have to be compliant with WS-I Basic Profile for interoperability
12:20:39 [pauld]
pauld: for Web service tools at least, but we can be used in a wider context
12:21:31 [pauld]
george: we talked about this yesterday under ISSUE-68
12:21:47 [pauld]
pauld: let's leave this for a telcon
12:49:03 [gcowe]
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12:54:25 [pauld]
Topic: Editors
12:54:39 [pauld]
s/Editors/Editorial Work
12:54:59 [pauld]
more spec bashing, added edtodos for work
12:55:15 [pauld]
Topic: Review of Issues and Patterns
12:55:43 [pauld]
pauld: we need to identify the issues which should have an acompanying pattern and example
12:56:05 [pauld]
.. then we can join that against the issue numbers in examples.xml and patterns.xml
12:57:07 [JonC]
The issue numbers requiring a pattern are:
12:57:50 [JonC]
12:58:04 [JonC]
12:58:10 [JonC]
12:58:13 [JonC]
12:58:45 [JonC]
Change of plan these are the Issues NOT requiring a pattern...
12:58:54 [JonC]
12:59:06 [JonC]
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13:05:21 [JonC]
13:05:37 [JonC]
13:05:46 [JonC]
13:07:13 [pauld]
ACTION: gcowe to build a tool to check each Issue has a pattern and each pattern has an example
13:07:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-77 - Build a tool to check each Issue has a pattern and each pattern has an example [on George Cowe - due 2006-10-13].
13:08:57 [JonC]
To help George 1,2,3,4,11,12,13,16,17,18,24,28,29,30,34,35,36,37,40,52,53,61,62,63,71
13:09:55 [gcowe]
thanks Jon!
13:23:34 [pauld]
Topic: Action Item Review
13:24:05 [pauld]
ACTION: ylafon to work on XMLUnit check
13:24:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-78 - Work on XMLUnit check [on Yves Lafon - due 2006-10-13].
13:30:43 [pauld]
ACTION: gcowe to build 2nd pass of Schematon pattern detection tool
13:30:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-79 - Build 2nd pass of Schematon pattern detection tool [on George Cowe - due 2006-10-13].
13:33:00 [pauld]
ACTION: pdowney to review ISSUES list against edtodo list
13:33:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-80 - Review ISSUES list against edtodo list [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-13].
13:34:48 [pauld]
Topic: Schedule
13:35:01 [pauld]
pauld: review Roadmap document
13:43:40 [pauld]
pauld: thanks to the W3C for hosting, the nice weather and good eating!
13:43:47 [pauld]
13:44:04 [pauld]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
13:44:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate pauld
13:44:16 [pauld]
RRSAgent, make logs public