IRC log of ws-desc on 2006-10-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-ws-desc-irc
14:56:56 [TomJ]
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14:56:59 [Jonathan]
RRSAgent, set log world
14:57:08 [Jonathan]
Meeting: WS Description WG telcon
14:57:11 [Jonathan]
chair: Jonathan
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+Plh
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+Gilbert_Pilz
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+Tom_Jordahl
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+Jonathan_Marsh
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+??P9
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+Roberto
15:01:55 [TonyR]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TonyR, Plh, Gilbert_Pilz, Tom_Jordahl, Jonathan_Marsh, ??P9, Roberto
15:02:11 [Zakim]
+Peter_Zehler
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+Vivek_Pandey
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+Arthur_Ryman
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+Anish_Karmarkar
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+Allen_Brookes
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+Charlton_Barreto
15:03:32 [Arthur]
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15:03:39 [Z]
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15:03:53 [TonyR]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TonyR, Plh, Gilbert_Pilz, Tom_Jordahl, Jonathan_Marsh, ??P9, Roberto, Peter_Zehler, Vivek_Pandey, Arthur_Ryman, Anish_Karmarkar, Allen_Brookes, Charlton_Barreto
15:03:56 [charlton]
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-??P9
15:05:05 [plh]
Regrets: PaulD, Youenn
15:05:47 [Zakim]
+Canon
15:06:01 [Zakim]
+Amelia_Lewis
15:06:15 [jjm]
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15:06:30 [jjm]
zakim, Canon holds Jean-Jacques
15:06:30 [Zakim]
+Jean-Jacques; got it
15:06:50 [Zakim]
-Allen_Brookes
15:06:55 [alewis]
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15:07:07 [alewis]
SCRIBE: alewis
15:07:14 [alewis]
TOPIC: approval of minutes
15:07:53 [alewis]
minutes approved 28 September 2006 teleconference
15:07:59 [alewis]
TOPIC: Action items
15:08:14 [alewis]
(quickly reviewed)
15:09:18 [alewis]
Jonathan: no longer affiliated with Microsoft, now with WSO2, will continue on working group, as co-chair and WSO2 representative
15:09:25 [Zakim]
+??P31
15:09:47 [alewis]
... Asir continues to represent Microsoft (currently on paternity leave)
15:11:14 [alewis]
(chaffer targeting Jonathan and Asir and Arthur)
15:15:04 [Jonathan]
Jonathan's new email address: jonathan@wso2.com
15:15:49 [alewis]
TOPIC: Administrivia
15:15:57 [alewis]
Interop event, November 14-18
15:16:30 [alewis]
... Canon to host.
15:17:20 [alewis]
... location of interop event is Rennes, France
15:18:17 [alewis]
... more administrivia: should we review the change from x-www-url-encoded to www-url-encoded, approaching submission in IETF.
15:18:34 [alewis]
Jonathan: do we need to review this, or make specification changes?
15:18:49 [alewis]
little interest or concern expressed.
15:18:55 [alewis]
TOPIC: features at risk
15:19:32 [alewis]
... features and properties awaiting submission from Youenn on MTOM (CR62). Discussion awaits fulfillment of action item.
15:21:37 [alewis]
... is there anything other than Youenn's action that we're waiting for to make the decision on Features and Properties?
15:22:36 [alewis]
Phillippe: SOAP modules may also be linked to removal of features and properties, since based on that.
15:22:59 [alewis]
Jonathan: Glen modified that statement, to say that the functionality is less than ideal, but still usable.
15:23:27 [plh]
s/Phillippe/Philippe/
15:23:28 [alewis]
... Arthur is suggesting that we need to make the Features and Properties decision next week, when we've seen Youenn's proposal.
15:24:10 [alewis]
TOPIC: CR80, canonical component designators.
15:24:40 [Arthur]
q+
15:24:43 [alewis]
Jonathan: is the purpose of component designators furthered by having canonical designators?
15:25:48 [alewis]
Jacek: yes, these can be useful to RDF and web arch generally, but ought to be "SHOULD" rather than "MUST".
15:26:27 [alewis]
Jonathan: someone needs to write up the canonical form of XPointer URIs for component designators
15:26:43 [alewis]
... might be restricted to namespaces and such.
15:27:16 [alewis]
... canonical XPointer format might have utility outside of this group.
15:27:20 [Zakim]
+??P13
15:27:34 [Allen]
zakim, ??P13 is Allen
15:27:34 [Zakim]
+Allen; got it
15:29:27 [alewis]
... fragment identifiers are too restrictive; component designators should be more sharply targeted. Should be able to use a component designator as a fragment identifier, but not necessarily the other way around.
15:30:08 [alewis]
Jacek: anyone using fragment identifiers knows how to use them, as a rule.
15:30:25 [alewis]
Arthur: but in RDF, these things need to be opaque, comparable URIs
15:30:58 [alewis]
Jacek: yes, but it's unlikely that two different sources will generate fragment identifiers from the same WSDL and then need to compare them.
15:31:09 [Zakim]
-Peter_Zehler
15:31:13 [alewis]
Jacek: it would be nice to have canonical designators, but is not critical.
15:32:10 [alewis]
Jonathan: add a paragraph to spec. "For easy lexical comparison of fragment identifiers ..." (he needs to put the rest of this in an email, probably)
15:32:52 [alewis]
discussion of how to generate namespace prefixes, as applied to the problem of canonicalization.
15:33:16 [alewis]
Arthur: does this also require that the base URI be canonicalized?
15:33:30 [Jonathan]
- only 0 to two xmlns() and exactly 1 wsdl.*() pointer parts may appear
15:33:31 [alewis]
Jonathan: we start from a target URI, which is lexically defined.
15:33:43 [Jonathan]
- prefixes must be named ns1, ns2
15:33:49 [Jonathan]
- no whitespace appears in the XPointer
15:34:01 [Jonathan]
- no duplicate URIs in xmlns()
15:34:05 [alewis]
Arthur: true for WSDL, but we also have schema URIs.
15:34:14 [alewis]
Jonathan, Jacek: same thing.
15:34:45 [Jonathan]
- multipe xmlns() parts appear in the same order as in the wsdl.* part
15:35:02 [alewis]
Arthur: if namespace recurs, reuse prefix.
15:35:28 [Jonathan]
s/0 to two/0 or more/
15:36:09 [alewis]
Jonathan: are these rules sufficient for the case of an extension?
15:36:09 [Jonathan]
s/multipe/multiple/
15:36:32 [Zakim]
-Anish_Karmarkar
15:36:38 [alewis]
Arthur: yes, the frag id is a string, so has an inherent left-to-right order. name them in order of occurrence.
15:37:33 [Jonathan]
"For ease of comparison, Component Designators SHOULD conform to the following canonicalization rules."
15:37:39 [alewis]
ACTION: Arthur to revise appendix to include this text.
15:38:13 [alewis]
Arthur: WS-Policy will also use these fragment ids.
15:38:24 [chinthaka]
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15:39:54 [alewis]
RESOLVED: CR80 closed with the addition of a statement recommending canonical construction of URLs representing fragment ids.
15:40:38 [Jonathan]
note that the use of must within SHOULD is not very nice
15:40:55 [alewis]
Arthur: maybe also revise the examples in the specification using the canonical form?
15:41:54 [alewis]
Jonathan: one more issue on list, from 2004, note from TAG on safety extension. TAG wants to track usage through deployment.
15:42:17 [alewis]
... suggest that at some point he can report implementation to the TAG.
15:42:26 [alewis]
... Woden and Canon currently implement.
15:42:47 [alewis]
Arthur: can WSDL claim that something is safe when it isn't?
15:43:18 [alewis]
Jacek: planning to use this information in research; although no implementation, it's very useful in its present form.
15:44:41 [alewis]
Tom: reads this as looking for clarification on what "safe" means.
15:45:00 [alewis]
Arthur: maybe we need to say that "read-only" is not enough, it needs to have no side effects.
15:45:08 [alewis]
Jonathan: but we don't want to define it.
15:45:20 [alewis]
... point to canonical definition.
15:45:31 [alewis]
Tom: can't we just add a couple sentences?
15:45:41 [alewis]
Jonathan: no, they want something in the test suite.
15:46:12 [alewis]
Tom: "we called launchNuclearWeapons twice, and it wasn't safe even though it was marked that way!"
15:46:46 [alewis]
Arthur: can put banking-type example in test suite (getBalance is safe, makeDeposit is not)
15:47:05 [alewis]
question: are there examples in the primer? Is this the best place to do it?
15:47:44 [alewis]
Arthur: there's discussion in the primer, maybe Jonathan should point the TAG at the primer on interface operation.
15:48:50 [alewis]
Jonathan: yes, this text looks pretty good. Reluctant to do more, except eventually ping the TAG again to say "still there, seems to be working, no internet-scale deployment at this time, but no reason to expect misuse"
15:49:11 [alewis]
Arthur: is it generally an error if an operation is bound to HTTP DELETE and it's marked as safe?
15:49:29 [alewis]
Arthur: can we check that in validation?
15:49:34 [alewis]
Philippe: no.
15:49:47 [alewis]
Arthur: sure we can, if we know the binding.
15:49:49 [alewis]
q+
15:50:05 [alewis]
Philippe: only GET is safe.
15:50:19 [alewis]
Jacek: what is guaranteed to be *unsafe*?
15:51:35 [alewis]
Amy: is there an assertion about usage of HTTP methods in the WSDL HTTP binding?
15:52:11 [alewis]
Joanathan, Arthur: well, we should be able to work it out from the combination of the HTTP spec and the definition of safety.
15:52:43 [alewis]
Arthur: yes, but we could put the assertion in, in order to have a test case that clearly violates an assertion (and is therefore invalid).
15:53:18 [pauld]
DELETE is unsafe
15:53:32 [alewis]
discussion of whether a WSDL can be called invalid if it does not violate a direct assertion. can validity be based on implicit violation of the safety attribute?
15:54:34 [alewis]
discussion of which methods are guaranteed unsafe.
15:54:56 [alewis]
paul says delete is; jonathan suggests not (if there's a nonexistent resource, for instance).
15:55:33 [alewis]
Arthur: and there is no guarantee that an application will implement the HTTP verbs properly.
15:56:07 [alewis]
Jacek, Arthur: we can point them to the primer, and point out that it's not in the test suite.
15:56:38 [alewis]
Jonathan: the issue will be resolved via a report to the TAG, the longer we wait, the more implementation experience we can report on.
15:58:45 [alewis]
Jonathan: substantially completed with work. we will have a call next week to talk about features and properties.
16:00:09 [alewis]
NEW ISSUE: per email from Ramkumar Menon, question of fault binding raised in discussion of synchronous versus asynchronous.
16:00:34 [alewis]
Jonathan: will add issue 81, and close it immediately by requiring fault binding.
16:00:55 [alewis]
Jacek: faults outside operations don't need to have bindings.
16:00:55 [pauld]
notes DELETE on a non-existent resource should return 404, not 200, 202, 204 and invalid implementations sounds bogus
16:01:26 [alewis]
Jacek: uncomfortable with this MUST.
16:02:12 [alewis]
... maybe say it in the qualified version?
16:02:38 [Zakim]
-Plh
16:02:43 [Jonathan]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:02:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TonyR, Gilbert_Pilz, Tom_Jordahl, Jonathan_Marsh, Roberto, Vivek_Pandey, Arthur_Ryman, Charlton_Barreto, Canon, Amelia_Lewis, JacekK, Allen
16:02:46 [Zakim]
Canon has Jean-Jacques
16:02:58 [alewis]
Jonathan: maybe leave issue open for this week?
16:03:10 [alewis]
ACTION: Jacek to send response email noting his concern.
16:03:31 [alewis]
Arthur: in practice, you won't have a problem until you use a fault.
16:03:46 [alewis]
Arthur: if something goes wrong, and you need to send a fault, you need to know how to bind it.
16:03:57 [alewis]
Arthur: so there can be unused faults.
16:04:12 [alewis]
Jacek: but what about faults that are defined, but not referenced from any operation?
16:04:34 [alewis]
Jonathan: let's look at it; it doesn't sound controversial, just needs a little more thought.
16:04:41 [Jonathan]
ACTION: Jonathan to add issue 81
16:04:51 [alewis]
Arthur: yeah, probably happened when we pulled fault out of operation.
16:05:24 [alewis]
Meeting closes.
16:06:18 [Arthur]
assertion coverage report: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/test-suite/assertions-report.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8
16:06:21 [alewis]
implementors' report.
16:06:50 [alewis]
226 assertions, only 54 covered by test cases.
16:07:22 [alewis]
Arthur: also invites people to contribute to Woden.
16:07:47 [Arthur]
Woden project needs help: http://incubator.apache.org/woden/
16:07:53 [Zakim]
-Canon
16:07:57 [Zakim]
-Jonathan_Marsh
16:07:58 [Zakim]
-Arthur_Ryman
16:07:59 [Zakim]
-Allen
16:08:00 [Zakim]
-TonyR
16:08:01 [Zakim]
-Gilbert_Pilz
16:08:03 [Zakim]
-Roberto
16:08:04 [Zakim]
-Tom_Jordahl
16:08:05 [Zakim]
-JacekK
16:08:35 [Zakim]
-Vivek_Pandey
16:08:36 [Zakim]
-Amelia_Lewis
16:08:49 [TonyR]
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16:09:07 [JacekK]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:09:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-ws-desc-minutes.html JacekK
16:09:08 [TomJ]
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16:09:13 [JacekK]
rrsagent, make minutes member
16:09:13 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes member', JacekK. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:09:19 [JacekK]
rrsagent, make log member
16:09:26 [charlton]
rrsagent, format minutes
16:09:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-ws-desc-minutes.html charlton
16:09:53 [JacekK]
the minutes are public, is that a problem?
16:10:21 [alewis]
bye, gang.
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16:10:59 [Vivek]
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16:11:06 [charlton]
zakim, list participants
16:11:06 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been TonyR, Plh, Gilbert_Pilz, Tom_Jordahl, Jonathan_Marsh, Roberto, Peter_Zehler, Vivek_Pandey, Arthur_Ryman, Anish_Karmarkar, Allen_Brookes,
16:11:10 [Zakim]
... Charlton_Barreto, Amelia_Lewis, Jean-Jacques, JacekK, Allen
16:11:52 [charlton]
Zakim, excuse us
16:11:52 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were TonyR, Plh, Gilbert_Pilz, Tom_Jordahl, Jonathan_Marsh, Roberto, Peter_Zehler, Vivek_Pandey, Arthur_Ryman, Anish_Karmarkar,
16:11:52 [Zakim]
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16:11:55 [Zakim]
... Allen_Brookes, Charlton_Barreto, Amelia_Lewis, Jean-Jacques, JacekK, Allen
16:25:18 [Jonathan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:25:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
16:25:42 [Jonathan]
RRSAgent, set log world
16:25:46 [Jonathan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:25:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-ws-desc-minutes.html Jonathan
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