07:34:51 RRSAgent has joined #databinding 07:34:52 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-irc 07:46:50 pauld has joined #databinding 07:47:03 trackbot, start meeting 07:47:05 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:47:07 Zakim, this will be DBWG 07:47:07 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, trackbot 07:47:08 Meeting: Databinding WG Teleconference 07:47:08 Date: 05 October 2006 07:47:40 Meeting: Databinding F2F Meeting, Sofia Antipolis 07:47:48 Chair: paul 07:48:06 Present: pauld, gcowe, yves, jonc 07:51:00 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xsd-databinding/2006Oct/0000.html 07:51:16 RRSAgent, generate minutes 07:51:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html pauld 07:51:31 RRSAgent, make logs member-visible 08:13:56 Yves: we can ask other developpers (in the spec) a call for test results 08:14:28 and if we should put such gathered results in our pages, we should flag them as contributed 08:32:42 Pauld: if we have a call for logs, what process do we need to accept contributions? 08:33:08 ACTION: ylafon to investigate IP and process about contribution of logs from third parties 08:33:19 Created ACTION-67 - Investigate IP and process about contribution of logs from third parties [on Yves Lafon - due 2006-10-12]. 08:43:56 Topic: Review of Outstanding Issues 08:43:59 JonC has joined #databinding 08:47:25 pauld: we need text to explain ISSUE-37 etc that we may offer more than one pattern for a particular structure, eg absence of data, but we don't offer semantics or how to choose the best pattern on offer 08:51:06 Topic: ISSUE-20 - Extension of Collections 08:51:20 pauld: useful versioning pattern based on xs:any 08:51:32 jonc: xs:any is Advanced 08:52:02 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-20 as an Advanced Pattern 08:53:28 Topic: ISSUE-31 enumerated restriction types 08:55:45 pauld: DecimalEnumeration fails in Mono 08:55:56 jonc: what about the rest of them? 09:02:49 pauld: much the same for mono, but SOAP4r copes with them all 09:06:13 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-20 as Advanced 09:33:59 Topic: ISSUE-45 attribute use optional/required 09:34:27 pauld: do we have examples? 09:38:53 gcowe: we have AttributeRequired and AttributeFixed 09:39:19 pauld: works with tools i've looked at so far, schema-first 09:39:51 s/AttributeFixed/AttributeOptional/ 09:41:15 jon: will toolkits bounce invalid documents, probably not an issue 09:41:44 pauld: and will tools prevent someone not sending it 09:42:27 all: seems like a generic issue, but invalid behaviour is out of scope 09:42:52 pauld: we can accept this as Basic and pull it out following more testing 09:43:22 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-45 as a Baisc pattern 09:43:47 s/Baisc/Basic/ 09:55:20 Topic: ISSUE-46 Fixed Attribute values 09:55:51 pauld: toolkits echo valid documents ok, but don't capture the fixed value in code 09:59:49 yves: we need operations which do more work than echo, eg increment a number 10:03:04 pauld: good approach, but requires different approach for each pattern, not scalable 10:03:15 yves: we should call for test code 10:03:50 pauld: this smacks of ISSUE-28, what to do if the programming language doesn't fully support a data structure 10:04:00 Zakim has left #databinding 10:05:04 pauld: in this case initialising or fixing a sting is available in most environments, but tools don't support it 10:05:54 s/sting/string/ 10:07:00 pauld: ISSUE-28 doesn't sit happily here, we closed this with no action: 10:07:02 " Discussion around this concluded that as long as the tools do not bail out and reject the schema and allow all valid instance docs to be processed and created (even if it allows invalid docs through) then we are happy for those structures to be included in Basic Patterns. The experience of the schema author is still good..." 10:07:38 pauld: in this case a ruby developer has to look for the fixed value in the schema 10:08:33 gcowe has joined #databinding 10:10:14 pauld: this reminds me of the constrain by a pattern, information is lost in code generation 10:11:03 jonc: good experience doesn't prevent the user from doing the right thing, but doesn't prevent you sending invalid data 10:11:19 yves: you need -ve testing here 10:15:14 pauld: unconvinced we can test this ' 10:15:31 s/'/'black box' you have to look at the code/ 10:16:07 pauld: we need introductory text for ISSUE-28 10:17:03 pauld: under the rules of ISSUE-28 this should be Basic, but lack of fixed value in generated code make me want to set this as Advanced 10:18:09 gcowe: you need to include the behaviour of the source code 10:18:37 yves: you are welcome to do more than echo 10:19:29 yves: seeing generated code in the test report is a requirement 10:21:14 pauld: i did this for SOAP4r - snippits.html, lets ask people to make sure they contribute working along with a report 10:23:03 pauld: so ISSUE-28 is a floor for what makes a pattern Basic, I think we can still make value judgements on a case-by-case basis 10:25:52 pauld: we need to make sure our text explains this 10:26:05 pauld: i think Fixed is an Advanced pattern 10:26:19 gcowe: i think it's Basic 10:26:29 Jonc: i think it's Basic 10:26:55 pauld: why do you want it basic? 10:27:04 jonc: nothing barfs 10:27:28 yves: we could make it basic and rip it out after more testing 10:28:25 pauld: so in this case they generate the placeholder, just don't populate it and you think that's good enough 10:29:29 pauld: OK we've just rehashed ISSUE-28 10:30:16 pauld: can live ewith either, let's have our FIRST STRAW POLL!!!! 10:31:22 chad has joined #databinding 10:31:47 chad, question: options for ISSUE-46 10:31:56 chad, option 1: Basic pattern 10:32:05 chad, option 2: Advanced pattern 10:32:22 vote: 1,2 10:32:34 vote: 2,1 10:32:37 vote: 1,2 10:32:40 vote 1 10:32:41 vote:1 10:32:48 chad, count 10:32:48 Question: options for ISSUE-46 10:32:48 Option 1: Basic pattern (2) 10:32:48 Option 2: Advanced pattern (1) 10:32:48 3 voters: JonC (1),pauld (2,1),Yves (1,2) 10:32:48 Round 1: Count of first place rankings. 10:32:49 Candidate 1 is elected. 10:32:51 Winner is option 1 - Basic pattern 10:33:10 vote: 1 10:33:16 chad, count 10:33:16 Question: options for ISSUE-46 10:33:16 Option 1: Basic pattern (3) 10:33:16 Option 2: Advanced pattern (1) 10:33:16 4 voters: gcowe (1),JonC (1),pauld (2,1),Yves (1,2) 10:33:16 Round 1: Count of first place rankings. 10:33:17 Candidate 1 is elected. 10:33:19 Winner is option 1 - Basic pattern 10:34:26 RESOLUTION: close ISSSUE-46 as an Basic pattern 10:38:15 Topic: ISSUE-67 xsi:type 10:38:43 pauld: known limitation of many tools, e.g. ADB 1.0: http://ws.apache.org/axis2/1_0/adb/adb-howto.html 10:39:03 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-67 as Advanced 10:41:09 Topic: ISSUE-58 anonymous complexType 10:41:43 jonc: we had this internally within BT but failed to work with BEA Weblogic 8.1 10:42:33 pauld: Paul Keil has this as being well supported. ISTR it not working well, do we need more evidence? 10:43:38 pauld: very common pattern, do we want to do this? 10:46:14 pauld: is that an easily fixed bug in one toolkit, or an indication of a widespread problem? 10:47:55 pauld: it's no the end of the world for a pattern to be advanced 10:50:58 pauld: our experience is venetian blind works well, but should we discount Russian Doll etc? I'm attracted to the minium to declare victory, but it's easier to take things out than add them in later 10:51:13 .. LUNCH .. 12:12:54 Topic: ISSUE-64: Union of SimpleTypes 12:13:16 we have an example 'JeanSize' 12:13:34 pauld: can we think about making this based upon the pattern name? 12:13:59 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE=64 Union of simple types as an Advanced pattern 12:14:38 gcowe has joined #databinding 12:19:12 Topic: ISSUE-48 Local Elements defined by Reference 12:19:27 pauld: implicitly means global elements 12:19:41 works with toolkits AFAICT 12:19:53 jonc: it's how all doc/lit WSDLs work 12:20:07 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-48 as a Basic pattern 12:21:00 Topic: ISSUE-60 Local Attributes defined by Reference 12:21:07 pauld: deja-vu! 12:21:26 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-60 as a basic Pattern 12:23:39 Topic: ISSUE-56: simpleType resricted with min/max facets 12:23:48 pauld: introduces simpleTypes 12:23:57 jonc: chad! chad! 12:24:58 pauld: not like 'fixed'; value space of valid values greater than one 12:25:30 pauld: explains why ISSUE-28 is a value judgement 12:28:47 pauld: SOAP4r barfs at runtime 12:29:04 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-56 as an Advanced pattern 12:33:34 Topic: ISSUE-68 xs:import of Schema 1.0 namespace 12:33:51 George sent mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xsd-databinding/2006Sep/0025 12:34:14 pauld: so not WS-I BP compliant, and we want to be compatible with the WS-I BP 12:37:24 pauld: OK, we need to think about a reference to the BP 12:37:40 pauld: how do we close this issue? Advanced or don't do it? 12:39:17 pauld: what's the use-case? maybe picking up a schema with this cruft in it? 12:40:17 pauld: is it a problem for Advanced? 12:42:19 discussion of models of how WSDLs get built 12:42:38 jonc: we are in the Web services space, this isn't useful but not BP compliant 12:42:48 pauld: do I go to the BP and raise this as an issue? 12:45:50 pauld: OK mark it as Advanced for now, I'll engaage the WS-I 12:46:24 ACTION: pdowney to raise an issue on ISSUE-68 with the WS-I Basic Profile WG 12:46:24 Created ACTION-68 - Raise an issue on ISSUE-68 with the WS-I Basic Profile WG [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12]. 12:49:07 Topic: ISSUE-66 Enumeration based on a SimpleType 12:49:28 jonc: our example is based upon an Advanced pattern, so makes this Advanced? 12:49:45 .. unless we come up with a simpler example 12:53:53 jonc: does it make sense to have an enum of an enum? 12:54:08 pauld: or do we have other facets? 12:55:32 pauld: if you're writing a schema you can do this in one type, Basic is for people authoring schemas in the main 12:55:57 .. however Origo do this and it seems to work in their toolkits 12:57:27 gcowe: our use of this is possibly historical 12:59:27 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-66 as an advanced pattern, needs more examples 13:09:45 s/historical/historical but fundamental/ 13:10:43 Topic: ISSUE-15 Null datatype pattern as used by ASN.1 and others 13:11:00 pauld: split second pattern as ISSUE-70 13:11:36 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-15 accpeted empty sequence as a Basic pattern 13:12:01 Topic: ISSUE-10 Mapping Element and Type names 13:12:06 pauld: issue of death 13:25:48 http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/9/19-databinding-minutes.html#item01 13:36:07 pauld: walks through the history 13:36:34 yves: for Advanced this is a must and can be easily implemented, comments for original names etc 13:37:56 pauld: proposal for way forward: split issue into concrete patterns for name formats, python rules, includes '-', Kanji set, etc and process them as business as usual 13:46:46 ACTION: pauld to build several examples based upon existing document for ISSUE-10 13:46:46 Sorry, couldn't find user - pauld 13:46:58 ACTION: pdowney to build several examples based upon existing document for ISSUE-10 13:46:59 Created ACTION-69 - Build several examples based upon existing document for ISSUE-10 [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12]. 13:57:28 Topic: ISSUE-55 simple abstract substitutionGroup pattern 13:57:42 jonc: leave it open, we need a concrete example / pattern 13:59:52 Topic: ISSUE-38 xs:any processContents value of 'skip' 14:00:05 gcowe: we have examples and patterns for this 14:00:19 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-38 as Advanced 14:03:28 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-55 as Advanced, needs example 14:04:34 Topic: ISSUE-50 is xs:anyType an Advanced pattern? 14:04:49 pauld: well duh 14:05:08 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-50 as an Advanced pattern 14:05:48 RRSAgent, generate minutes 14:05:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html pauld 14:07:03 Topic: ISSUE-25 Map and Hash Patterns 14:07:32 pauld: we need the concrete patterns and examples from the input document 14:09:24 ACTION: pauld to explode concrete patterns for ISSUE-25 hash and map 14:09:24 Sorry, couldn't find user - pauld 14:09:39 ACTION: pdowney to explode concrete patterns for ISSUE-25 hash and map 14:09:39 Created ACTION-70 - Explode concrete patterns for ISSUE-25 hash and map [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12]. 14:10:35 Topic: ISSUE-17 Advice for representing a duration 14:12:05 pauld: we don't offer advice on which pattern to use, apart from grouping. Duration is an advanced datatype, leave it at that. 14:12:21 pauld: do we accept duration is good for durations? 14:13:08 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-17 with no action 14:14:36 Topic: ISSUE-58 anonymous complexType 14:14:57 RESOLUTION close ISSUE-58 as an Advanced pattern 14:17:48 Topic: ISSUE-54 Sequence of choice Pattern 14:18:08 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-58 as an Advanced pattern 14:18:22 s/RESOLUTION /RESOLUTION:/g 14:20:29 Topic: ISSUE-59 attributeGroup pattern 14:20:48 RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-59 as an Advanced pattern 14:22:12 Topic: ISSUE-14 xs:default handling 14:25:39 RESOLUTION: accept ISSUE-14 as an Advanced pattern 14:25:46 RRSAgent, generate minutes 14:25:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html pauld 14:46:15 Topic: ISSUE-2 TestSuite 14:46:28 pauld demos where we are 15:04:44 ACTION: pdowney to publish logfile format 15:04:44 Created ACTION-71 - Publish logfile format [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12]. 15:33:24 discussion of tetsuite process 15:36:51 pauld: genit generates palatable examples.wsdl, generates code, implements functions, deploys, runs service 15:37:32 pauld: runit takes our example soap11 instance documents, fires them at the service 15:38:01 pauld: result is a log file 'output.xml' and a HTML document of the implemented code 'snippits.html' 15:43:02 pauld: we then need to generate a results.xml which checks the request versus response 15:50:55 pauld: Ajith suggests XMLUnit, looks cool for the 95 case, but we still need hints for comparing floats etc 15:51:05 yves: also useful if we have +1 test cases 15:51:40 pauld: produced a Schematron generator, but too heavyweight for just comparing documents 15:52:10 yves: XMLUnit looks interesting, especially the 'exact' then 'similar' match approach, I'd like to pick up this work 15:52:19 pauld: does a happy dance 15:52:46 pauld: will work with George on Axis, etc logs 15:52:57 RRSAgent, generate minutes 15:52:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html pauld 16:02:25 rrasgent, set logs public 16:03:19 rrsagent, set logs world 16:03:32 s/rrasgent, set logs public// 16:03:38 RRSAgent, generate minutes 16:03:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html pauld