IRC log of databinding on 2006-10-05
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 07:34:51 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #databinding
- 07:34:52 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-irc
- 07:46:50 [pauld]
- pauld has joined #databinding
- 07:47:03 [pauld]
- trackbot, start meeting
- 07:47:05 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 07:47:07 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be DBWG
- 07:47:07 [Zakim]
- I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, trackbot
- 07:47:08 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Databinding WG Teleconference
- 07:47:08 [trackbot]
- Date: 05 October 2006
- 07:47:40 [pauld]
- Meeting: Databinding F2F Meeting, Sofia Antipolis
- 07:47:48 [pauld]
- Chair: paul
- 07:48:06 [pauld]
- Present: pauld, gcowe, yves, jonc
- 07:51:00 [pauld]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xsd-databinding/2006Oct/0000.html
- 07:51:16 [pauld]
- RRSAgent, generate minutes
- 07:51:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html pauld
- 07:51:31 [pauld]
- RRSAgent, make logs member-visible
- 08:13:56 [Yves]
- Yves: we can ask other developpers (in the spec) a call for test results
- 08:14:28 [Yves]
- and if we should put such gathered results in our pages, we should flag them as contributed
- 08:32:42 [pauld]
- Pauld: if we have a call for logs, what process do we need to accept contributions?
- 08:33:08 [pauld]
- ACTION: ylafon to investigate IP and process about contribution of logs from third parties
- 08:33:19 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-67 - Investigate IP and process about contribution of logs from third parties [on Yves Lafon - due 2006-10-12].
- 08:43:56 [pauld]
- Topic: Review of Outstanding Issues
- 08:43:59 [JonC]
- JonC has joined #databinding
- 08:47:25 [pauld]
- pauld: we need text to explain ISSUE-37 etc that we may offer more than one pattern for a particular structure, eg absence of data, but we don't offer semantics or how to choose the best pattern on offer
- 08:51:06 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-20 - Extension of Collections
- 08:51:20 [pauld]
- pauld: useful versioning pattern based on xs:any
- 08:51:32 [pauld]
- jonc: xs:any is Advanced
- 08:52:02 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-20 as an Advanced Pattern
- 08:53:28 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-31 enumerated restriction types
- 08:55:45 [pauld]
- pauld: DecimalEnumeration fails in Mono
- 08:55:56 [pauld]
- jonc: what about the rest of them?
- 09:02:49 [pauld]
- pauld: much the same for mono, but SOAP4r copes with them all
- 09:06:13 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-20 as Advanced
- 09:33:59 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-45 attribute use optional/required
- 09:34:27 [pauld]
- pauld: do we have examples?
- 09:38:53 [pauld]
- gcowe: we have AttributeRequired and AttributeFixed
- 09:39:19 [pauld]
- pauld: works with tools i've looked at so far, schema-first
- 09:39:51 [pauld]
- s/AttributeFixed/AttributeOptional/
- 09:41:15 [pauld]
- jon: will toolkits bounce invalid documents, probably not an issue
- 09:41:44 [pauld]
- pauld: and will tools prevent someone not sending it
- 09:42:27 [pauld]
- all: seems like a generic issue, but invalid behaviour is out of scope
- 09:42:52 [pauld]
- pauld: we can accept this as Basic and pull it out following more testing
- 09:43:22 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-45 as a Baisc pattern
- 09:43:47 [Yves]
- s/Baisc/Basic/
- 09:55:20 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-46 Fixed Attribute values
- 09:55:51 [pauld]
- pauld: toolkits echo valid documents ok, but don't capture the fixed value in code
- 09:59:49 [pauld]
- yves: we need operations which do more work than echo, eg increment a number
- 10:03:04 [pauld]
- pauld: good approach, but requires different approach for each pattern, not scalable
- 10:03:15 [pauld]
- yves: we should call for test code
- 10:03:50 [pauld]
- pauld: this smacks of ISSUE-28, what to do if the programming language doesn't fully support a data structure
- 10:04:00 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #databinding
- 10:05:04 [pauld]
- pauld: in this case initialising or fixing a sting is available in most environments, but tools don't support it
- 10:05:54 [JonC]
- s/sting/string/
- 10:07:00 [pauld]
- pauld: ISSUE-28 doesn't sit happily here, we closed this with no action:
- 10:07:02 [pauld]
- " Discussion around this concluded that as long as the tools do not bail out and reject the schema and allow all valid instance docs to be processed and created (even if it allows invalid docs through) then we are happy for those structures to be included in Basic Patterns. The experience of the schema author is still good..."
- 10:07:38 [pauld]
- pauld: in this case a ruby developer has to look for the fixed value in the schema
- 10:08:33 [gcowe]
- gcowe has joined #databinding
- 10:10:14 [pauld]
- pauld: this reminds me of the constrain by a pattern, information is lost in code generation
- 10:11:03 [pauld]
- jonc: good experience doesn't prevent the user from doing the right thing, but doesn't prevent you sending invalid data
- 10:11:19 [pauld]
- yves: you need -ve testing here
- 10:15:14 [pauld]
- pauld: unconvinced we can test this '
- 10:15:31 [pauld]
- s/'/'black box' you have to look at the code/
- 10:16:07 [pauld]
- pauld: we need introductory text for ISSUE-28
- 10:17:03 [pauld]
- pauld: under the rules of ISSUE-28 this should be Basic, but lack of fixed value in generated code make me want to set this as Advanced
- 10:18:09 [pauld]
- gcowe: you need to include the behaviour of the source code
- 10:18:37 [pauld]
- yves: you are welcome to do more than echo
- 10:19:29 [pauld]
- yves: seeing generated code in the test report is a requirement
- 10:21:14 [pauld]
- pauld: i did this for SOAP4r - snippits.html, lets ask people to make sure they contribute working along with a report
- 10:23:03 [pauld]
- pauld: so ISSUE-28 is a floor for what makes a pattern Basic, I think we can still make value judgements on a case-by-case basis
- 10:25:52 [pauld]
- pauld: we need to make sure our text explains this
- 10:26:05 [pauld]
- pauld: i think Fixed is an Advanced pattern
- 10:26:19 [pauld]
- gcowe: i think it's Basic
- 10:26:29 [pauld]
- Jonc: i think it's Basic
- 10:26:55 [pauld]
- pauld: why do you want it basic?
- 10:27:04 [pauld]
- jonc: nothing barfs
- 10:27:28 [pauld]
- yves: we could make it basic and rip it out after more testing
- 10:28:25 [pauld]
- pauld: so in this case they generate the placeholder, just don't populate it and you think that's good enough
- 10:29:29 [pauld]
- pauld: OK we've just rehashed ISSUE-28
- 10:30:16 [pauld]
- pauld: can live ewith either, let's have our FIRST STRAW POLL!!!!
- 10:31:22 [chad]
- chad has joined #databinding
- 10:31:47 [pauld]
- chad, question: options for ISSUE-46
- 10:31:56 [pauld]
- chad, option 1: Basic pattern
- 10:32:05 [pauld]
- chad, option 2: Advanced pattern
- 10:32:22 [pauld]
- vote: 1,2
- 10:32:34 [pauld]
- vote: 2,1
- 10:32:37 [Yves]
- vote: 1,2
- 10:32:40 [gcowe]
- vote 1
- 10:32:41 [JonC]
- vote:1
- 10:32:48 [pauld]
- chad, count
- 10:32:48 [chad]
- Question: options for ISSUE-46
- 10:32:48 [chad]
- Option 1: Basic pattern (2)
- 10:32:48 [chad]
- Option 2: Advanced pattern (1)
- 10:32:48 [chad]
- 3 voters: JonC (1),pauld (2,1),Yves (1,2)
- 10:32:48 [chad]
- Round 1: Count of first place rankings.
- 10:32:49 [chad]
- Candidate 1 is elected.
- 10:32:51 [chad]
- Winner is option 1 - Basic pattern
- 10:33:10 [gcowe]
- vote: 1
- 10:33:16 [pauld]
- chad, count
- 10:33:16 [chad]
- Question: options for ISSUE-46
- 10:33:16 [chad]
- Option 1: Basic pattern (3)
- 10:33:16 [chad]
- Option 2: Advanced pattern (1)
- 10:33:16 [chad]
- 4 voters: gcowe (1),JonC (1),pauld (2,1),Yves (1,2)
- 10:33:16 [chad]
- Round 1: Count of first place rankings.
- 10:33:17 [chad]
- Candidate 1 is elected.
- 10:33:19 [chad]
- Winner is option 1 - Basic pattern
- 10:34:26 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSSUE-46 as an Basic pattern
- 10:38:15 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-67 xsi:type
- 10:38:43 [pauld]
- pauld: known limitation of many tools, e.g. ADB 1.0: http://ws.apache.org/axis2/1_0/adb/adb-howto.html
- 10:39:03 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-67 as Advanced
- 10:41:09 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-58 anonymous complexType
- 10:41:43 [pauld]
- jonc: we had this internally within BT but failed to work with BEA Weblogic 8.1
- 10:42:33 [pauld]
- pauld: Paul Keil has this as being well supported. ISTR it not working well, do we need more evidence?
- 10:43:38 [pauld]
- pauld: very common pattern, do we want to do this?
- 10:46:14 [pauld]
- pauld: is that an easily fixed bug in one toolkit, or an indication of a widespread problem?
- 10:47:55 [pauld]
- pauld: it's no the end of the world for a pattern to be advanced
- 10:50:58 [pauld]
- pauld: our experience is venetian blind works well, but should we discount Russian Doll etc? I'm attracted to the minium to declare victory, but it's easier to take things out than add them in later
- 10:51:13 [pauld]
- .. LUNCH ..
- 12:12:54 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-64: Union of SimpleTypes
- 12:13:16 [pauld]
- we have an example 'JeanSize'
- 12:13:34 [pauld]
- pauld: can we think about making this based upon the pattern name?
- 12:13:59 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE=64 Union of simple types as an Advanced pattern
- 12:14:38 [gcowe]
- gcowe has joined #databinding
- 12:19:12 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-48 Local Elements defined by Reference
- 12:19:27 [pauld]
- pauld: implicitly means global elements
- 12:19:41 [pauld]
- works with toolkits AFAICT
- 12:19:53 [pauld]
- jonc: it's how all doc/lit WSDLs work
- 12:20:07 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-48 as a Basic pattern
- 12:21:00 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-60 Local Attributes defined by Reference
- 12:21:07 [pauld]
- pauld: deja-vu!
- 12:21:26 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-60 as a basic Pattern
- 12:23:39 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-56: simpleType resricted with min/max facets
- 12:23:48 [pauld]
- pauld: introduces simpleTypes
- 12:23:57 [pauld]
- jonc: chad! chad!
- 12:24:58 [pauld]
- pauld: not like 'fixed'; value space of valid values greater than one
- 12:25:30 [pauld]
- pauld: explains why ISSUE-28 is a value judgement
- 12:28:47 [pauld]
- pauld: SOAP4r barfs at runtime
- 12:29:04 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-56 as an Advanced pattern
- 12:33:34 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-68 xs:import of Schema 1.0 namespace
- 12:33:51 [pauld]
- George sent mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xsd-databinding/2006Sep/0025
- 12:34:14 [pauld]
- pauld: so not WS-I BP compliant, and we want to be compatible with the WS-I BP
- 12:37:24 [pauld]
- pauld: OK, we need to think about a reference to the BP
- 12:37:40 [pauld]
- pauld: how do we close this issue? Advanced or don't do it?
- 12:39:17 [pauld]
- pauld: what's the use-case? maybe picking up a schema with this cruft in it?
- 12:40:17 [pauld]
- pauld: is it a problem for Advanced?
- 12:42:19 [pauld]
- discussion of models of how WSDLs get built
- 12:42:38 [pauld]
- jonc: we are in the Web services space, this isn't useful but not BP compliant
- 12:42:48 [pauld]
- pauld: do I go to the BP and raise this as an issue?
- 12:45:50 [pauld]
- pauld: OK mark it as Advanced for now, I'll engaage the WS-I
- 12:46:24 [pauld]
- ACTION: pdowney to raise an issue on ISSUE-68 with the WS-I Basic Profile WG
- 12:46:24 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-68 - Raise an issue on ISSUE-68 with the WS-I Basic Profile WG [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12].
- 12:49:07 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-66 Enumeration based on a SimpleType
- 12:49:28 [pauld]
- jonc: our example is based upon an Advanced pattern, so makes this Advanced?
- 12:49:45 [pauld]
- .. unless we come up with a simpler example
- 12:53:53 [pauld]
- jonc: does it make sense to have an enum of an enum?
- 12:54:08 [pauld]
- pauld: or do we have other facets?
- 12:55:32 [pauld]
- pauld: if you're writing a schema you can do this in one type, Basic is for people authoring schemas in the main
- 12:55:57 [pauld]
- .. however Origo do this and it seems to work in their toolkits
- 12:57:27 [pauld]
- gcowe: our use of this is possibly historical
- 12:59:27 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-66 as an advanced pattern, needs more examples
- 13:09:45 [pauld]
- s/historical/historical but fundamental/
- 13:10:43 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-15 Null datatype pattern as used by ASN.1 and others
- 13:11:00 [pauld]
- pauld: split second pattern as ISSUE-70
- 13:11:36 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-15 accpeted empty sequence as a Basic pattern
- 13:12:01 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-10 Mapping Element and Type names
- 13:12:06 [pauld]
- pauld: issue of death
- 13:25:48 [pauld]
- http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/9/19-databinding-minutes.html#item01
- 13:36:07 [pauld]
- pauld: walks through the history
- 13:36:34 [pauld]
- yves: for Advanced this is a must and can be easily implemented, comments for original names etc
- 13:37:56 [pauld]
- pauld: proposal for way forward: split issue into concrete patterns for name formats, python rules, includes '-', Kanji set, etc and process them as business as usual
- 13:46:46 [pauld]
- ACTION: pauld to build several examples based upon existing document for ISSUE-10
- 13:46:46 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - pauld
- 13:46:58 [pauld]
- ACTION: pdowney to build several examples based upon existing document for ISSUE-10
- 13:46:59 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-69 - Build several examples based upon existing document for ISSUE-10 [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12].
- 13:57:28 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-55 simple abstract substitutionGroup pattern
- 13:57:42 [pauld]
- jonc: leave it open, we need a concrete example / pattern
- 13:59:52 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-38 xs:any processContents value of 'skip'
- 14:00:05 [pauld]
- gcowe: we have examples and patterns for this
- 14:00:19 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-38 as Advanced
- 14:03:28 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-55 as Advanced, needs example
- 14:04:34 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-50 is xs:anyType an Advanced pattern?
- 14:04:49 [pauld]
- pauld: well duh
- 14:05:08 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-50 as an Advanced pattern
- 14:05:48 [pauld]
- RRSAgent, generate minutes
- 14:05:48 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html pauld
- 14:07:03 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-25 Map and Hash Patterns
- 14:07:32 [pauld]
- pauld: we need the concrete patterns and examples from the input document
- 14:09:24 [pauld]
- ACTION: pauld to explode concrete patterns for ISSUE-25 hash and map
- 14:09:24 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - pauld
- 14:09:39 [pauld]
- ACTION: pdowney to explode concrete patterns for ISSUE-25 hash and map
- 14:09:39 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-70 - Explode concrete patterns for ISSUE-25 hash and map [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12].
- 14:10:35 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-17 Advice for representing a duration
- 14:12:05 [pauld]
- pauld: we don't offer advice on which pattern to use, apart from grouping. Duration is an advanced datatype, leave it at that.
- 14:12:21 [pauld]
- pauld: do we accept duration is good for durations?
- 14:13:08 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-17 with no action
- 14:14:36 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-58 anonymous complexType
- 14:14:57 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION close ISSUE-58 as an Advanced pattern
- 14:17:48 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-54 Sequence of choice Pattern
- 14:18:08 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-58 as an Advanced pattern
- 14:18:22 [pauld]
- s/RESOLUTION /RESOLUTION:/g
- 14:20:29 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-59 attributeGroup pattern
- 14:20:48 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-59 as an Advanced pattern
- 14:22:12 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-14 xs:default handling
- 14:25:39 [pauld]
- RESOLUTION: accept ISSUE-14 as an Advanced pattern
- 14:25:46 [pauld]
- RRSAgent, generate minutes
- 14:25:46 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html pauld
- 14:46:15 [pauld]
- Topic: ISSUE-2 TestSuite
- 14:46:28 [pauld]
- pauld demos where we are
- 15:04:44 [Yves]
- ACTION: pdowney to publish logfile format
- 15:04:44 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-71 - Publish logfile format [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12].
- 15:33:24 [pauld]
- discussion of tetsuite process
- 15:36:51 [pauld]
- pauld: genit generates palatable examples.wsdl, generates code, implements functions, deploys, runs service
- 15:37:32 [pauld]
- pauld: runit takes our example soap11 instance documents, fires them at the service
- 15:38:01 [pauld]
- pauld: result is a log file 'output.xml' and a HTML document of the implemented code 'snippits.html'
- 15:43:02 [pauld]
- pauld: we then need to generate a results.xml which checks the request versus response
- 15:50:55 [pauld]
- pauld: Ajith suggests XMLUnit, looks cool for the 95 case, but we still need hints for comparing floats etc
- 15:51:05 [pauld]
- yves: also useful if we have +1 test cases
- 15:51:40 [pauld]
- pauld: produced a Schematron generator, but too heavyweight for just comparing documents
- 15:52:10 [pauld]
- yves: XMLUnit looks interesting, especially the 'exact' then 'similar' match approach, I'd like to pick up this work
- 15:52:19 [pauld]
- pauld: does a happy dance
- 15:52:46 [pauld]
- pauld: will work with George on Axis, etc logs
- 15:52:57 [pauld]
- RRSAgent, generate minutes
- 15:52:57 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html pauld
- 16:02:25 [pauld]
- rrasgent, set logs public
- 16:03:19 [pauld]
- rrsagent, set logs world
- 16:03:32 [pauld]
- s/rrasgent, set logs public//
- 16:03:38 [pauld]
- RRSAgent, generate minutes
- 16:03:38 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html pauld