14:25:42 RRSAgent has joined #rif 14:25:42 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-rif-irc 14:30:44 zakim, read agenda from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Sep/att-0010/RIF-Agenda.rdf 14:30:44 working on it, ChrisW 14:30:47 agenda+ Admin 14:30:48 agendum 1 added 14:30:49 agenda+ Liaison 14:30:53 agendum 2 added 14:30:54 agenda+ Use Cases and Requirements 14:30:55 agendum 3 added 14:30:56 agenda+ RIF-RAF 14:30:57 agendum 4 added 14:30:59 agenda+ Technical Design 14:31:00 agendum 5 added 14:31:01 agenda+ AOB 14:31:03 agendum 6 added 14:31:05 done reading agenda, ChrisW 14:32:03 Meeting: RIF Telecon 3 Oct 06 14:32:03 Chair: Chris Welty 14:32:03 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0001.html 14:34:14 agenda+ F2F 14:35:34 agenda order is 1,7,2-6 14:35:53 agenda? 14:36:10 zakim, clear agenda 14:36:10 agenda cleared 14:36:17 agenda+ Admin 14:36:22 agenda+ F2F 14:36:29 agenda+ Liason 14:36:37 agenda+ Use Cases & Requirements 14:36:46 agenda+ RIF-RAF 14:36:56 agenda+ Technical Design 14:37:02 agenda+ AOB 14:37:25 save agenda world-access 14:37:33 zakim, save agenda world-access 14:37:39 ok, ChrisW, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-rif-agenda.rdf 14:39:42 zakim, this is rif 14:39:42 ChrisW, I see SW_RIF()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be rif". 14:39:47 zakim, this will be rif 14:39:47 ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes 14:40:18 rifbot, testing 14:40:40 rifbot, help 14:40:40 See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link) 14:43:32 Harold has joined #rif 14:53:06 Donald_Chapin has joined #rif 14:54:08 DavidHirtle has joined #rif 14:54:12 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 14:54:18 +[IPcaller] 14:54:24 +Donald_Chapin (was [IPcaller]) 14:54:39 zakim, mute me 14:54:39 sorry, Donald_Chapin, muting is not permitted when only one person is present 14:56:32 FrankMcCabe has joined #rif 14:56:46 zakim, what is the code? 14:56:46 the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), FrankMcCabe 14:57:43 +[NRCC] 14:57:56 Allen has joined #rif 14:57:58 zakim, [NRCC] is me 14:57:58 +Harold; got it 14:58:07 zakim, mute me 14:58:07 Donald_Chapin should now be muted 14:59:03 +[IPcaller] 14:59:08 zakim, ipcaller is me 14:59:08 +FrankMcCabe; got it 14:59:21 LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif 14:59:31 csma has joined #rif 14:59:44 DaveReynolds has joined #rif 14:59:48 josb has joined #rif 14:59:54 +[IBM] 15:00:06 Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif 15:00:15 +Dave_Reynolds (was Guest P35 74394) 15:00:17 +Dave_Reynolds 15:00:32 +Deborah_Nichols 15:00:35 MalaMehrotra has joined #rif 15:00:49 +??P37 15:01:00 zakim, ??P37 is me 15:01:01 +csma; got it 15:01:23 +Mala_Mehrotra 15:01:36 pfps has joined #rif 15:01:37 +Allen_Ginsberg 15:01:44 +Sandro 15:01:50 +[IPcaller] 15:02:00 zakim, mute me 15:02:00 Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted 15:02:01 mdean has joined #rif 15:02:12 +??P44 15:02:19 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:02:19 On the phone I see Donald_Chapin (muted), Harold, FrankMcCabe, [IBM], Dave_Reynolds, Deborah_Nichols (muted), csma (muted), Mala_Mehrotra, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Sandro, 15:02:20 zakim, ??p44 is me 15:02:22 ... DavidHirtle, ??P44 15:02:24 +pfps; got it 15:02:25 +Leora_Morgenstern 15:02:31 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 15:02:31 +ChrisW; got it 15:02:41 Chris, are you [IBM]? 15:02:45 StellaMitchell has joined #rif 15:03:02 yes, i took care of it 15:03:26 Is anyone talking on the phone? I can hear nothing 15:03:34 SaidTabet has joined #RIF 15:03:40 AxelPolleres has joined #rif 15:03:54 +[IBM] 15:04:01 zakim, please mute me 15:04:01 Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted 15:04:06 zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me 15:04:06 +StellaMitchell; got it 15:04:39 AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif 15:04:50 +??P1 15:05:00 zakim, ??P1 is me 15:05:00 +SaidTabet; got it 15:05:04 zakim, mute me 15:05:04 SaidTabet should now be muted 15:05:11 PAULv has joined #rif 15:05:35 +[IPcaller] 15:05:41 + +43.512.507.9aaaa 15:05:42 scribenick: Harold 15:05:48 Scribe: Harold Boley 15:05:52 Zakim, IPcaller is me 15:05:52 +AxelPolleres; got it 15:06:02 +[IPcaller] 15:06:04 +??P21 15:06:06 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Sep/att-0081/19-rif-minutes.html 15:06:09 zakim, ??P21 is me 15:06:09 +AlexKozlenkov; got it 15:06:15 zakim, mute me 15:06:15 AlexKozlenkov should now be muted 15:06:21 zakim, who is talking? 15:06:29 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 15:06:29 +PAULv; got it 15:06:32 csma, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AxelPolleres (55%), ChrisW (82%) 15:06:43 +1 15:06:44 yes 15:06:51 GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif 15:06:55 yes, I object 15:06:59 zakim, unmute me 15:06:59 Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted 15:07:21 hak has joined #rif 15:07:29 Minutes Sept 19: Leora found that not all names are mentioned, including her own one. 15:07:44 +Mike_Dean 15:08:11 zakim, unmute me 15:08:11 csma should no longer be muted 15:08:11 GaryHallmark has joined #rif 15:08:15 +[IVML] 15:08:45 zakim, [IVML] is me 15:08:45 +GiorgosStoilos; got it 15:08:46 +Gary_Hallmark 15:09:23 Christian: Names are at the end of these Minutes. 15:09:34 MoZ are you there??? 15:10:30 action: leora to send email to MoZ to correct 19/9 minutes re names 15:10:30 Created ACTION-136 - Send email to MoZ to correct 19/9 minutes re names [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2006-10-10]. 15:10:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Sep/att-0087/26-Sept-rif-minutes-c.html 15:11:05 ChrisW, yes I am 15:11:31 Sorry, I'm on another W3C telcon 15:11:33 Minutes Sept 26: Minor edits from Mala done, but not re-posted. 15:11:37 Leora will send you a message, we need some edits to the ateendee list for the 9/19 telecon 15:12:09 action: mala to repost edited minutes for 9/26 15:12:09 Created ACTION-137 - Repost edited minutes for 9/26 [on Mala Mehrotra - due 2006-10-10]. 15:12:13 zakim, next agendum 15:12:13 agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:12:22 PaulV suggests review action 12 to Allen per minutes on last weeks minutes 15:12:23 zakim, close agendum 15:12:23 I don't understand 'close agendum', ChrisW 15:12:28 zakim, close item 1 15:12:28 agendum 1, Admin, closed 15:12:29 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:12:30 7. AOB [from ChrisW] 15:12:42 zakim, take up agendum 2 15:12:42 agendum 2. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:13:02 +??P57 15:13:29 Zakim, unmute me 15:13:29 AxelPolleres should no longer be muted 15:13:37 Chris I nee that visa letter ASAP 15:13:42 Zakim, +??57 is me 15:13:42 sorry, hak, I do not recognize a party named '+??57' 15:13:42 q+ 15:13:49 TOPIC: F2F4: Register everyone! 15:14:17 q+ 15:14:25 ack axel 15:14:38 Zakim, ??57 is me 15:14:38 sorry, hak, I do not recognize a party named '??57' 15:14:41 Although no real deadline, register asap. 15:14:50 ack harold 15:14:59 Zakim, ??57 is Hassan 15:14:59 sorry, hak, I do not recognize a party named '??57' 15:15:12 zakim, who is talking? 15:15:23 ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 23 (17%), AxelPolleres (37%), Harold (70%), pfps (58%), ??P57 (76%) 15:15:32 zakim, mute 23 15:15:32 sorry, ChrisW, I do not see a party named '23' 15:15:37 zakim, mute axel 15:15:37 AxelPolleres should now be muted 15:15:51 Hotels within walking distance. 15:15:52 zakim, ??p57 is hak 15:15:52 +hak; got it 15:16:01 q? 15:16:27 TOPIC: F2F5 15:18:11 +1 Antartica 15:18:33 +1 15:18:35 +1 15:18:43 +1 15:18:46 +1 15:18:58 Chris: During winter break at MIT, there will be a mini-conference, with which we could combine our F2F5 in Cambridge. 15:19:18 I'm afraid the minutes will reflect that as +1's for Antarctica, not for Banff! 15:20:13 csma: Banff is likely to cause some conflict with W3C AC meeting. 15:20:20 q+ 15:20:24 TOPIC: F2F6: Sandro: Banff (WWW conf), Innsbruck (ESWC), or 3rd place? 15:20:25 Zakim, unmute me 15:20:26 AxelPolleres should no longer be muted 15:20:59 Zakim, mute me 15:20:59 AxelPolleres should now be muted 15:21:20 Axel: ESWC would be doable. 15:22:48 Sandro: W3C mini-conference may be difficult, room-wise. 15:23:06 Chris, perhaps IBM could host it? 15:23:29 DavidR: Bristol is remote possibility as well. 15:23:31 As mentioned, we think about it co-located with ESWC, but we need to check back first. 15:23:45 Chris: IBM is remote possibility as well. 15:24:02 Qu: what numbers of people would be expected at F2F5/6? 15:24:34 Chris: 30-40 people. 15:25:07 Sandro: People should face each other (not: classroom-style). 15:25:18 Harold: 'U-shape'. 15:26:20 zakim, next agendum 15:26:20 agendum 7. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:26:20 action Sandro to send an email message calling for F2F5 and F2F6 hosting proposals 15:26:27 zakim, close item 7 15:26:27 agendum 7, AOB, closed 15:26:28 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:26:29 3. Liason [from ChrisW] 15:26:34 zakim, take up item 3 15:26:34 agendum 3. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:26:40 TOPIC: Liaison 15:26:51 zakim, close item 3 15:26:51 agendum 3, Liason, closed 15:26:52 action: sandro to send email message calling for F2F5 and F2F6 hosting proposals 15:26:52 Created ACTION-138 - Send email message calling for F2F5 and F2F6 hosting proposals [on Sandro Hawke - due 2006-10-10]. 15:26:52 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:26:54 4. Use Cases & Requirements [from ChrisW] 15:26:56 No new activity. 15:26:59 zakim, take up item 4 15:26:59 agendum 4. "Use Cases & Requirements" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:27:10 TOPIC: UC&R 15:28:02 Action 41: Explain blackbox: Continued. 15:28:03 zakim, unmute me 15:28:03 Donald_Chapin should no longer be muted 15:28:11 zakim, unmute me 15:28:12 Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted 15:28:19 Action 72: Continued. 15:28:31 zakim, mute me 15:28:31 Donald_Chapin should now be muted 15:28:47 action: 38, 41, 72, 87 continued 15:28:47 Sorry, couldn't find user - 38, 15:28:59 Action 87: Continued. 15:29:31 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/CORE 15:29:37 (new page) 15:29:53 Action: Done. 15:29:53 Sorry, bad ACTION syntax 15:30:16 action 102 is done 15:30:48 action 105 continued 15:31:08 action 106 continued 15:31:23 Action 105/106: Continued. 15:31:36 Action 113: Completed. 15:31:53 Action 114: Continued. 15:33:00 Action on Christian: Co-location. Continued. 15:33:08 ACtion 125: Continued. 15:33:23 Action 126 (on Allen): sent email with possible text. 15:33:36 (Continued) 15:33:56 Rather: Complete! 15:34:31 Action 127 (on Leora): linked, explanations, additions (in comments), without rules. 15:34:52 Completed. 15:35:02 Action 128: Done. 15:35:57 Change action on Francois to one on Paula. 15:36:03 Action 129 (on Allen): Continued. 15:36:08 continued 15:36:19 Action 130 (on Axel): Continued 15:36:40 Action 131-133: Continued. 15:37:01 Action 134: Continued. 15:37:14 Action 135: Completed. 15:37:16 Yay Harold! Yay Leora!! 15:37:56 UC->Req for 1, 6, 9 are ready. 15:38:07 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Introduction 15:38:10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Oct/0003.html 15:38:19 Intro text on Allen: Updated wiki page (mentioned in email). 15:38:53 Says, there are some reqs from the charter (XML etc.). 15:39:10 Tried to capture comments of Christian. 15:39:34 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Introduction 15:39:52 Looks good to me 15:39:57 AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif 15:40:04 Chris: New paragraph: Looks good. 15:41:14 q+ 15:41:20 Leora, Chris: Would be good to say which reqs are motivated by UCs, functional, chartered. 15:41:27 q= 15:41:29 ack axel 15:41:29 q- 15:41:30 Allen: Wait a bit until we've more data. 15:42:14 Christian: Regarding functional reqs, should wait until finished analysis of UCs. 15:42:59 ack csma 15:43:29 Chris: Perhaps 'reverse engineer' which ones are fctl, which UC-motivated. 15:43:45 [ Allen, I have one problem with the new paragraph which is the use of the definite article before "RIF". Does your browser display web pages written in the HTML or the XHTML, or both? Did you ever program in the LISP? .... :-) ] 15:44:07 -ChrisW 15:44:18 I'll still be watching the IRC out of the corner of my eye 15:44:59 Christian: For my UC, Dave's comment was taken into account. 15:45:34 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Ruleset_Integration_for_Medical_Decision_Support 15:45:40 [Sandro, I will change it] 15:46:24 UC6: Leora: Put assumptions in the links. Ex: Embedded metadata. 15:47:45 zakim, who is talking? 15:47:56 csma, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AxelPolleres (57%), Dave_Reynolds (4%) 15:48:00 [Sandro: Actually the usage "The RIF" occurs all over the place. Do you want to get rid of that everywhere?] 15:48:37 zakim, mute AxelPolleres 15:48:37 AxelPolleres should now be muted 15:48:51 sorry, my headset was mutet... strange 15:49:00 Sandro: Part of Leora's text is for the discussion, perhaps put in italics. 15:51:32 Christian: Ex: the first UC: You should clarify the req from the point of view of this UC. 15:51:55 -Donald_Chapin 15:52:29 Leora: It's vague what "Different intended semantics" intends. 15:53:23 Donald_Chapin has joined #rif 15:54:04 +[IPcaller] 15:54:12 Christian: All others who do UC->Req linkage should propose new wording for Req if original Req is unclear. 15:54:33 Leora: Could be difficult if everybody does their own interpretation. 15:54:36 zakim, IPcaller is me 15:54:36 +Donald_Chapin; got it 15:54:46 zakim, mute me 15:54:46 Donald_Chapin should now be muted 15:54:53 Sandro: Send email to the list proposing new Req wordings. 15:54:55 q+ 15:55:51 Christian: Problem with 'XML data' Req: Unclear what it really means. 15:56:36 q+ 15:57:03 Leora: Understanding for OWL compatibility: If you look at KB in OWL and there would be a way of translating it. 15:57:34 Christian: Maybe shared in another way? 15:58:04 Leora: Because don't want to lose 'OWLness'? 15:58:21 Christian: OWL fragments as black boxes? 15:58:41 Christian: How to cover any kind of data. 15:58:48 Sandro: Translate to RIF. 15:59:07 -Mala_Mehrotra 15:59:09 Christian: In most general sense: RIF would provide alternate serialization of OWL and RDF? 15:59:15 ack allen 15:59:17 Sandro: Yes, from charter. 15:59:24 -SaidTabet 15:59:53 Allen: Besides clarifying what Req is, UC may give subcase of general Req: Another reason why clarification is important. 15:59:56 +q 15:59:58 q+ 16:00:06 DaveR: RDF data: 16:01:12 DaveR: Did post what it means. Gist: If rule languages carries RDF-compatible data, there need to be a mapping. 16:01:23 Christian: Agree for XML types. 16:01:45 Christian: Maybe replicate for RDF and OWL types. 16:02:00 zakim, who is talking? 16:02:10 sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: FrankMcCabe (39%), csma (71%), Allen_Ginsberg (4%), Leora_Morgenstern (34%) 16:02:35 Christian: Difficult, however, for data in (whatever) format, because for XML there is XML Schema. 16:02:44 FrankMcCabe, can you mute? 16:02:49 DAve 16:03:11 Dave: You still need to explain what correspondence is. 16:03:44 q? 16:04:36 Christian: Doesn't imply that RIF is serialization for RDF or OWL. Instead, give user a way to specify a data format (e.g. Integer), without necessarily translator. 16:05:28 Sandro: RIF can convey rule aspects of other languages, e.g. RDF facts. 16:06:35 Christian: Take action on clarifying certain Reqs. Maybe others can try to explain them. 16:06:36 Christian - perhaps you respond to my suggested clarification already posted? 16:07:39 Christian: From standardization point of view it's not a good idea to capture something that can already be done another spec. 16:07:48 +1 to Dave 16:08:59 Leora: Coverage not so clear: either ... or ... 16:09:37 Leora: Other issue: how does whole ruleset look like? Eg. disjunction. Vague descriptions. 16:09:55 +1 to Leora, these high level UCs should not motivate individual coverage requirements 16:10:15 PAULv - apologies - must drop off call now 16:10:21 Allen: Not prohibited to use rules in English. 16:10:26 -PAULv 16:11:03 q? 16:11:24 ack frankm 16:11:46 UC 9: Harold: 16:13:47 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/BPEL_Orchestration_of_Rule-Based_Web_Services 16:16:30 q? 16:18:45 q+ 16:18:46 Christian: Should we look more carefully at the rules, and the need for their interchange? 16:18:54 ack allen 16:19:29 Gary: Yes, some absolute need for interchange a weak point, but not only for this UC. 16:20:34 Allen: Looks OK. But some Req may be missing, which we would then need to add or send to Harold. 16:21:08 Christian: We need to move this to email discussion. 16:21:44 TOPIC: RIFRAF 16:21:52 Zakim, unmute me 16:21:52 AxelPolleres should no longer be muted 16:21:59 q+ 16:22:12 ack axel 16:22:33 Christian: Axel is editor, but we have not decided yet on a possible ontology (OWL) language for RIFRAF. 16:23:00 Axel: Perhaps we could also continue to edit the document. 16:23:26 Axel: But others should jump in and help. 16:23:32 pointer, Frank? 16:24:26 So would I 16:24:29 Christian: Can we have a task force to do an ontology. Who will help? 16:24:34 task force for OWL version of RIF RAF: Sandro, Frank, Allen, .... 16:24:53 and Axel, but not so much in the next couple weeks. 16:24:53 Zakim, mute me 16:24:53 AxelPolleres should now be muted 16:25:03 and Leora 16:25:29 Zakim, unmute me 16:25:29 AxelPolleres should no longer be muted 16:25:36 Pointer to RIFRAF questionnaire on teh WIKI: 16:25:37 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Rulesystem_Arrangement_Framework 16:25:40 Christian: Can Axel to edit. 16:25:41 See section 6 16:25:52 Axel: Not until Oct 20. 16:26:10 Zakim, mute me 16:26:10 AxelPolleres should now be muted 16:27:11 TOPIC: Technical Design 16:27:13 ACTION: Leora to start organizing RIFRAF Ontology Task Force (using public-rif-wg mailing list) 16:27:14 Created ACTION-139 - Start organizing RIFRAF Ontology Task Force (using public-rif-wg mailing list) [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2006-10-10]. 16:27:22 Christian: We have to move to XML syntax. 16:27:51 Axel, okay, that's fine. 16:28:07 yes, I'll keep you in the loop 16:28:09