14:17:00 RRSAgent has joined #dawg 14:17:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-dawg-irc 14:17:05 zakim, this will be dawg 14:17:05 ok, kendallclark; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes 14:19:13 zakim, agenda+ Convene, approve minutes, recruit scribe, etc 14:19:13 agendum 1 added 14:19:42 Meeting: RDF Data Access Working group (3 Oct 2006) 14:19:48 Chair: Kendall Clark 14:19:55 Scribe: Andy Seaborne 14:20:02 ScribeNick: AndyS 14:20:11 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0011 14:20:19 SimonR has joined #dawg 14:22:25 zakim, agenda+ Action Items 14:22:25 agendum 2 added 14:22:38 zakim, agenda+ Update on pub progress for rq24 & json-sparql 14:22:38 agendum 3 added 14:22:48 zakim, agenda+ term distinctness for literals 14:22:48 agendum 4 added 14:22:57 zakim, agenda+ unbound variables in FILTER 14:22:57 agendum 5 added 14:23:09 zakim, agenda+ open world and other value tests 14:23:09 agendum 6 added 14:23:29 zakim, agenda+ Lots of other stuff we won't have time for. :> 14:23:29 agendum 7 added 14:26:15 Kendall, see you got CVS fixed - is issue nonliteralValueTesting now closed as well? 14:26:18 patH has joined #dawg 14:26:26 Or was that only partial? 14:27:49 no, i didn't get it fixed :) 14:27:53 ericp checked in for me... alas 14:28:01 after working w/ sysreq people for almost an hour 14:28:06 Well - that fixes it :-) 14:28:15 true 14:28:18 after a fashion 14:28:40 nonliteralValueTesting is still listed as open, and it still is open 14:28:53 did you mean to suggest that i didn't include it on agenda for future meetings? 14:29:02 (i didn't include several: it was too long already) 14:29:25 No - I thoughts we'd closed it when we discussed D-entailment 14:29:33 oh 14:29:36 SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started 14:29:43 +PatH 14:29:44 LeeF has joined #dawg 14:29:45 -PatH 14:29:45 hmm, i don't recall that, but my memory is spotty 14:29:46 SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended 14:29:47 Attendees were PatH 14:29:54 uh... 14:29:56 stupid zakim 14:30:00 there's a resolution somewhere. 14:30:00 zakim, this is dawg 14:30:00 kendallclark, I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be dawg". 14:30:07 zakim, this will be dawg 14:30:07 ok, kendallclark; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start now 14:30:12 zakim, pointer please? 14:30:12 I don't understand your question, LeeF. 14:30:15 zakim, pointer? 14:30:15 I don't understand your question, LeeF. 14:30:19 zakim, phone number? 14:30:19 I am sorry, LeeF; I do not know a number for number? 14:30:24 andy: ok, can you find a pointer, and i'll close it... I simply don't recall, but I trust that you do. :) 14:30:30 SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started 14:30:31 this is hugely entrtaining :-) 14:30:36 +??P3 14:30:37 +??P2 14:30:46 zakim, ??P3 is AndyS 14:30:46 +AndyS; got it 14:30:50 zakim, I know you're just holding out on me 14:30:50 I don't understand 'I know you're just holding out on me', LeeF 14:31:08 Zakim, ??P2 is SimonR 14:31:08 +SimonR; got it 14:31:09 +Kendall_Clark 14:31:11 tel:+1.617.761.6200 code:7333 14:31:13 +PatH 14:31:19 +[IBMCambridge] 14:31:20 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:31:20 On the phone I see SimonR, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, PatH, [IBMCambridge] 14:31:22 Kendall - I can try 14:31:23 Zakim, IBMCambridge is me 14:31:23 +LeeF; got it 14:31:26 Andy: thx 14:33:36 +??P11 14:33:44 zakim, ??P11 is ericP 14:33:44 +ericP; got it 14:34:26 Topic: nonLiteralValueTesting (process) 14:34:36 See minutes of 12/Sept. 14:34:52 +[IPcaller] 14:34:54 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:34:54 On the phone I see SimonR, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, PatH, LeeF, ericP, [IPcaller] 14:35:01 Zakim, IPCAller SteveH 14:35:01 I don't understand 'IPCAller SteveH', SteveH 14:35:06 Zakim, IPCAller is SteveH 14:35:06 +SteveH; got it 14:35:10 +Elias_Torres 14:35:34 Zakim, Elias_Torres is me 14:35:34 +EliasT; got it 14:35:53 Topic: Convene 14:36:34 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:36:34 On the phone I see SimonR, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, PatH, LeeF, ericP, SteveH, EliasT 14:36:47 Regrets: Fred Zemke 14:36:59 i'm available 14:37:00 Kendall: Proposed to meet Oct 10 14:37:06 I can't make it 14:37:35 for the record and at the risk of alienating non-US-baseball-fans amonst us -- Go Mets! 14:37:40 bijan has joined #dawg 14:37:41 zakim, please pick a scribe 14:37:41 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AndyS 14:37:44 zakim, please pick a scribe 14:37:44 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose LeeF 14:37:47 sure 14:37:52 ...scribe for next time: LeeF 14:37:57 Passcode problems 14:38:04 Next meeting: 10 Oct, same time & place, with LeeF scribing 14:38:07 #7333 14:38:15 +[IPcaller] 14:38:22 zakim, ipcaller is me 14:38:22 +bijan; got it 14:38:25 zakim, mute me 14:38:25 bijan should now be muted 14:38:26 Resolved: to meet Oct 10, scribe LeeF 14:38:38 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0012.html 14:39:15 RESOLUTION: to meet Oct 10, scribe LeeF 14:39:29 zakim, take up agendum 2 14:39:29 agendum 2. "Action Items" taken up [from kendallclark] 14:39:48 q+ 14:39:51 zakim, unmute me 14:39:51 bijan should no longer be muted 14:40:05 Possible missing actions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0014.html 14:40:36 ACTION: bijan to review FredZ Constructive mapping semantics for 14:40:37 SPARQL 18 Aug [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/05-dawg-irc] 14:40:39 DONE 14:40:49 [PENDING] ACTION: Bijan to review FredZ 2 Aug and relate to WG issue list 14:40:51 DONE 14:40:58 [PENDING] ACTION: KC to review FredZ 2 Aug for issue updates 14:40:59 DONE 14:41:10 ACTION: Bijan to see if the Chilean's semantics paper offers any 14:41:11 advice re: filters 14:41:15 argh, stupid bot 14:41:17 :) 14:41:25 CONTINUES 14:42:23 zakim, mute me 14:42:23 bijan should now be muted 14:42:53 ACTION: bijan to write some text on the D-entailment issue 14:42:59 continues 14:43:05 ACTION: BijanP to propose some editorial clarification text around DATATYPE 14:43:08 continues 14:43:28 ACTION: EliasT to follow up w/ Andy on "the idiom" for plain literals/string literals 14:43:31 DONE 14:43:44 ericP effect: DATATYE (RDF term) => IRI | "" => xsd:string, ""@foo => error, ""^^X => X, blank node => error, IRI 14:43:47 DONE 14:44:09 [DONE] ACTION: ericP to send mail describing how [VTV] and [BTV] illustrate basic graph matching conflicts between LC1 and LC2 semantics 14:44:11 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0248 14:44:57 ... discussion aroudn this to continue 14:45:13 ... KC asks Eric to send email to push it up the stack 14:45:26 zakim, take up next agendum 14:45:26 agendum 1. "Convene, approve minutes, recruit scribe, etc" taken up [from kendallclark] 14:45:30 zakim, take up next agendum 14:45:30 agendum 1 was just opened, kendallclark 14:45:32 zakim, take up next agendum 14:45:32 agendum 1 was just opened, kendallclark 14:45:44 AndyS, when I was reading rq24 I noticed that it seems like there has been introduced in a lot of the definition a sort of functional syntax for the algebraic operations. Is this right? Is it systmatic? 14:45:53 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:45:53 agendum 3. "Update on pub progress for rq24 & json-sparql" taken up [from kendallclark] 14:46:33 cross-site xmlhttprequest 14:46:36 sure 14:47:21 EricP: pub of rq24 depends on Bijan's review - got conditional "yes" 14:47:23 zakim, unmute me 14:47:23 bijan should no longer be muted 14:47:34 ... partial text removal (union red text) 14:47:51 Bijan: not conditional as such - can publish 14:48:21 EricP: What about the issues list comment? 14:48:32 Bijan: remove misleading stuff 14:48:50 ... union was one part of this 14:50:01 Bijan's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006OctDec/0001.html 14:50:11 I'd like for it to be struck. 14:50:41 Kendall: wants text on costs removed. 14:51:00 Hmm, no. I said I want explanatory, construction text removed. 14:51:04 for the record :) 14:51:05 Bijan: text is not accurate and so may be confusing - better to not mention 14:51:15 I said across the board I don't like meta-commentary in a spec. 14:51:18 zakim, mute me 14:51:18 bijan should now be muted 14:51:47 that is the meta-commentary text! UNION stuff has gone already 14:51:48 Why do we need to do this *now* for this pub? 14:51:50 Why not later? 14:52:10 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24.html is the doc itself 14:52:27 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24#bnodeRef 14:53:47 [[ 14:53:48 Costs: Tableau-based reasoners (at least, the Pellet Demo example 7) rely on the current, more expressive semantics to match implications that are not in a materializable RDF graph. 14:53:51 ]] 14:54:35 ericP was totally garbled for me 14:54:46 zakim, unmute me 14:54:46 bijan should no longer be muted 14:55:33 EricP: it tries to explain why we need non-distinguished variables 14:56:40 Bijan: two forms of variables allows more expressive queries 14:56:53 ... not about non-distinguished variables in patterns 14:57:04 http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20050721/#BasicGraphPatternMatching 14:57:16 vs. http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20060220/#BasicGraphPatternMatching 14:58:04 EricP: explain why there is a change in the way bNodes got implemented 14:58:14 Bijan: why is this about Pellet? 14:58:32 EricP: key is why subgraph is not sufficient 14:59:05 Bijan: no materialization of a graph that allows OWL-DL reasoner to integrate 15:02:01 Hmm, so, that's 8 minutes of discussion, and I still don't hear a *candidate* for text that everyone will agree with. 15:03:12 PatH: suggest drop cost/benefit sections 15:04:56 I suggest dropping the whole 'pink box'. 15:06:19 +50 15:07:10 PatH: harmless 15:07:30 Kendall: Biajn's has reviewed as per the resolution 15:07:58 ... Bijan wants it removed; Eric wants it to go as is. 15:08:17 zakim, mute me 15:08:17 bijan should now be muted 15:08:22 Bijan: offer to send email on the topic afterwards 15:08:34 +1 to kendall 15:09:31 My point is that the purpose of this pink box is to make a difficult issue clear, it just fails 15:09:32 Kendall: SW-CG want this text. 15:09:45 ... to get community feedback 15:09:57 zakim, take up next agendum 15:09:57 agendum 1. "Convene, approve minutes, recruit scribe, etc" taken up [from kendallclark] 15:10:00 zakim, take up next agendum 4 15:10:00 I don't understand 'take up next agendum 4', kendallclark 15:10:03 ... ErciP: what else would prevent pub this week? 15:10:07 EricP; nothing 15:10:07 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:10:07 agendum 4. "term distinctness for literals" taken up [from kendallclark] 15:10:11 EricP: nothing 15:10:45 zakim, unmute me 15:10:45 bijan should no longer be muted 15:11:31 PatH chairs for this item 15:11:46 Bijan: summarises issues for literals 15:12:07 ... equality is value space or term sensitive 15:12:44 PatH: could have a limited amout of value sensitivity - e.g. normal forms for lexcial forms 15:13:40 Biajn: Fred said that there might be impls that loose the input form. 15:13:54 how many answers will you get with DISTINCT on the non-DISTINCT dataset?: 15:13:55 | type | size | 15:13:55 | shoe | "10"^^xsd:integer | 15:13:55 | shoe | "10"^^xsd:float | 15:13:55 | shoe | "010"^^xsd:float | 15:13:56 s/Biajn/Bijan/g 15:15:27 AndyS: nothing about canonical forms here 15:16:17 EricP: arises for anything to do with returning a variable in SELECT 15:16:41 ... not about DISTINCT per se 15:17:16 Path: hears agreement on surface form usage - Bijan: no 15:18:12 PatH: meant two literals are equal if same lex + datatype. Nothing about input 15:18:15 zakim, mute me 15:18:15 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 15:18:43 Bijan: need to do something about the loading process 15:19:54 AndyS: there is text around FROM for this. 15:20:01 Do we need to specify a minimum set of node equalities that MUST be evaluated, and a maximum set of equalities that may be distinguished? If they're not the same, then the implementations will possibly vary. Otherwise, we have to choose One True Equality, right? 15:20:14 Bijan: if this is clear, I'm fine with term distinct 15:20:37 PROPSEO: DINSTINCTness depends of the surface form of the literal 15:21:08 I don't find the langauge about "Dervied" on input 15:21:13 zakim, unmute m e 15:21:13 I don't understand 'unmute m e', kendallclark 15:21:15 zakim, unmute me 15:21:15 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 15:21:47 Bijan, I can't remember the keyword - there is something - it was a long debate a long time ago :-) 15:22:08 Heh 15:22:26 PROPOSAL: DISTINCTness depends of the surface form of the literal (term distinct) 15:22:27 proper search engine optimization :) 15:22:59 We just spent nearly 20 minutes discussing informative text, so that may be overly optimistic. 15:23:06 Seconded: EricP 15:23:21 APPROVED 15:23:28 can we get actions to get text in place for this? 15:23:33 RESOLUTION: DISTINCTness depends of the surface form of the literal (term distinct) 15:23:36 ACTION KendallC: to close formsOfDistinct issue 15:23:46 zakim, take up agendum 5 15:23:46 agendum 5. "unbound variables in FILTER" taken up [from kendallclark] 15:23:48 ACTION: Bijan to propose text regarding normalization (massaging in general) while reading graphs on 15:23:52 06Kendall returns to the chair 15:23:55 s/ on/ in/ 15:24:23 APPROVED: Bijan abstains 15:25:02 06ACTION: AndyS to edit text for DISTINCT = term-distinct 15:25:13 Bijan requested that informative text be provided warning users about sensitivity of results to implementation stategies on graph input. (Bijan, OK??) 15:25:23 zakim, mute me 15:25:23 bijan should now be muted 15:26:01 ACTION: AndyS to edit text for DISTINCT = term-distinct 15:26:34 LeeF: 2 issues :: 1/ unbound variables and 2/ scope of filters 15:26:51 Kendall: let's talk about scope of filters 15:27:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Sep/0001 15:27:38 I have to step away from phone for a few minutes. Back soon. 15:29:08 AndyS: Current 11.2 text discusses unbound variables 15:30:03 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24#evaluation 15:30:21 back now. 15:30:26 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24#ebv 15:30:27 ... making 11.2.2. match 11.2 15:30:38 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:30:38 On the phone I see SimonR, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, PatH, LeeF, ericP, SteveH, EliasT, bijan (muted) 15:30:39 (11.2.2 is EBV) 15:30:48 I'mnot ready to talk about scope of variables or filters at the moment, sorry 15:30:59 ive got mic problems 15:31:29 PROPOSED: to accept the changes outlined in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Sep/0001 15:31:39 aich tee tee pee colon 15:31:43 one moment 15:31:56 zakim, unmute me 15:31:56 bijan should no longer be muted 15:32:37 zakim, mute me 15:32:37 bijan should now be muted 15:32:54 APPROVE: patH and Bijan abstaining 15:32:56 Accepted, Pat & Bijan abstaining 15:32:57 APPROVED: patH and Bijan abstaining 15:33:20 APPROVED: KendallC, patH and Bijan abstaining 15:33:44 Topic: scope of filters 15:34:16 LeeF has proposed that filter scope is the group, not the BGP alone 15:34:51 q+ 15:35:12 damn, i must have imagined Fred saying he agreed w/ Lee's suggestion... I cannot find it now. 15:35:22 zakim, unmute me 15:35:22 bijan should no longer be muted 15:35:24 ack bijan 15:35:31 LeeF: beleives that the scope is expected to be the group 15:35:45 { ?who foaf:name ?name 15:35:45 FILTER (?age > 7) 15:35:45 ?who foaf:age ?age } 15:36:36 q+ 15:36:43 I think FredZ endorsed the group scope in his attachment to 15:36:43 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0277.html 15:37:20 q+ 15:37:25 { ?who foaf:name ?name 15:37:25 OPTIONAL { ?who foaf:age ?age } 15:37:25 OPTIONAL { ?who my:age ?age } 15:37:25 FILTER (?age > 7) } 15:37:34 Better example. 15:37:37 :-) 15:38:02 ack AndyS 15:38:45 1st was just to illustrate the responsibility of FILTERing vars before they are bound 15:39:02 LeeF: here's fred's agreement: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0251.html 15:39:16 This looks like the best semantics to me. 15:39:16 I think that in general users will want to be able to sprinkle their FILTERs 15:39:16 throughout their patterns and they should not have to worry about subtle 15:39:17 differences depending on where they deposit a FILTER. 15:39:17 thanks, Kendall 15:40:17 { ?who foaf:name ?name FILTER regexp(?name, "^Bob") 15:40:17 ?who foaf:age ?age FILTER (?age > 7 } 15:40:33 ack SimonR 15:40:50 But how does it interact withoptional? 15:40:51 q+ to mention FredZ's semantics 15:40:58 zakim, mute me 15:40:58 bijan should now be muted 15:41:42 Hmm, I'm curious whether anyone has an opinion on the next move: 15:41:53 1. approve Lee's tests and vote on this next week 15:41:59 2. approve tests and vote now 15:42:31 SimonR: worried if we are saying ordering is about impl hacks 15:43:24 ... had a graph with the mathematical facts (infinite) 15:44:21 EricP: are we in agreement with FILTER/regex example above (filter with ?name)? 15:44:53 PatH: usually restrict to actual graph terms 15:45:07 EricP: FredZ proposed text 15:45:18 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Jun/0008.html 15:45:23 May or may not be related 15:45:39 What exactly is the text? 15:45:45 -EliasT 15:46:20 Bijan, no I don'think it is the same - they were talking about unbound, not placement 15:47:27 zakim, take up agendum 6 15:47:27 agendum 6. "open world and other value tests" taken up [from kendallclark] 15:47:34 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0169.html 15:47:50 Topic: Tests for datatype http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0169 15:47:55 mentioned in the FILTER condition to those in the pattern that is being 15:47:55 filtered.""" 15:47:58 Sigh 15:48:01 Stupid client 15:48:28 ACTION KendallC: put scope of filters at the top of next week's agenda 15:49:34 bijan, sounds like Jorge is talking about possible syntactic error, right? If so I agree with him. 15:50:53 Tests are some fixes and some for datatype() 15:51:26 here's what's currently in 11 15:51:28 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24#operandDataTypes 15:51:28 simple literal denotes a plain literal with no language tag. 15:51:28 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24#func-datatype 15:51:28 Returns the datatype IRI of ltrl if ltrl is a typed literal; returns xsd:string if ltrl is a simple literal; produces an error otherwise. 15:53:28 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0169.html 15:53:46 Just for my curiosity, have we fixed the issues raised in: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Jun/0008.html ? 15:53:55 ACTION PatH: to review the proposed tests in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0169.html and say yay or nay 15:54:14 E.g., """for some graph patterns P it is not always the case that {P . P} gives the same result as { P }.""" 15:54:40 Topic: Open World tests:10 01http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0180 15:55:06 ACTION EricP: to review the tests in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0180.html and say yay or nay 15:55:53 zakim, unmute me 15:55:53 bijan should no longer be muted 15:57:56 ACTION: Bijan review rq24 against http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Jun/0008.html 15:58:13 Zakim, take up agendum 12 15:58:13 I only see 7 items on the agenda 15:58:27 Topic: Protocol spec 15:58:53 Kendall: does not have time to chair and edit the protocol spec 15:59:05 ... asked Elias and Lee to become editors 15:59:11 ... and they have agreed 15:59:27 kendall, perhaps send an annouce of the appt to the mailing list? 15:59:29 sounds good to me 15:59:31 zakim, mute me 15:59:31 bijan should now be muted 15:59:44 Ah, I tought editorship was at chairs discrestion :) 16:00:08 But I vote for lee and elias anyway! 16:00:13 FOR PRESIDENT 16:00:38 seconded 16:00:40 And thrided 16:00:42 And acclaimed 16:00:49 feel better bijan! 16:00:49 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:00:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-dawg-minutes.html AndyS 16:00:54 -PatH 16:00:55 thx leef 16:01:03 -bijan 16:01:05 -AndyS 16:01:07 and feel wetter kendall's eyes! 16:01:13 yeah, thanks to IBM guys for helping 16:01:33 -Kendall_Clark 16:01:40 rrsagent, please make logs world-visible 16:01:47