IRC log of grddl-wg on 2006-09-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:16 [RRSAgent]
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15:01:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/09/27-grddl-wg-irc
15:01:28 [FabienGandon]
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15:01:29 [DanC]
Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda
15:01:29 [Zakim]
working on it, DanC
15:01:32 [Zakim]
agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-09-27T11:00-0400
15:01:38 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
15:01:44 [Zakim]
agenda+ publication schedule
15:01:50 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
15:01:58 [Zakim]
agenda+ Discussion of Primer Document
15:02:06 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
15:02:14 [Zakim]
agenda+ Review of Use Cases document, reviewing actions from last meeting
15:02:22 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
15:02:28 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL Spec: [#issue-base-param]
15:02:32 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
15:02:34 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-output-formats] which output formats should GRDDL support?
15:02:36 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
15:02:42 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-mt-ns]
15:02:46 [Zakim]
agendum 7 added
15:02:50 [Zakim]
done reading agenda, DanC
15:03:13 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:32 [Zakim]
sorry, DanC, I don't know what conference this is
15:03:38 [HarryH]
Zakim, this is grddl
15:03:42 [Zakim]
On IRC I see FabienGandon, RRSAgent, Zakim, chimezie, HarryH, iand, DanC
15:03:46 [Zakim]
ok, HarryH; that matches SW_GRDDL()11:00AM
15:04:02 [Zakim]
+DanC
15:04:04 [FabienGandon]
Zakim, who's here?
15:04:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P2, Murray_Maloney, ??P0, FabienGandon, Chimezie_Ogbuji, DanC
15:04:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see FabienGandon, RRSAgent, Zakim, chimezie, HarryH, iand, DanC
15:04:30 [DanC]
Zakim, mute ??P0 temporarily
15:04:36 [Zakim]
??P0 should now be muted
15:04:36 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P2 is HarryH
15:04:38 [Zakim]
+HarryH; got it
15:04:38 [HarryH]
Zakim, ??p2 is HarryH
15:04:40 [Zakim]
I already had ??P2 as HarryH, HarryH
15:04:46 [Zakim]
??P0 should now be unmuted again
15:04:55 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P0 is IanD
15:05:00 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
15:05:06 [Zakim]
+IanD; got it
15:05:08 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-09-27T11:00-0400" taken up
15:05:17 [DanC]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/09/20-grddl-wg-minutes minutes 20 Sep
15:05:23 [HarryH]
Chair: HarryH
15:05:26 [HarryH]
Scribe: Fabien
15:05:58 [ryager]
ryager has joined #grddl-wg
15:05:59 [FabienGandon]
Regrets : Rachel and Ben
15:06:38 [Zakim]
+Rachel_Yager
15:07:18 [FabienGandon]
SW coordination group is ok with drafts of primer and use case first and then the specs.
15:07:33 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:07:33 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "publication schedule" taken up
15:07:37 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:07:37 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, HarryH
15:07:49 [HarryH]
Zakim, close item 2
15:07:49 [Zakim]
agendum 2, publication schedule, closed
15:07:50 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:07:51 [Zakim]
3. Discussion of Primer Document
15:07:52 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:07:52 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Discussion of Primer Document" taken up
15:08:35 [FabienGandon]
Primer: Ian's access setup but to be tested.
15:09:38 [FabienGandon]
Ian is happy with the comments and need some more time to integrate them.
15:10:04 [briansuda]
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15:10:11 [FabienGandon]
Harry is ok to go to draft without all the example as long as they are included in next version
15:11:49 [FabienGandon]
Harry: At least simple sample files for input and output should be available on the web.
15:12:16 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:12:52 [FabienGandon]
Chimezie wouldn't say the primer is ready to ship.
15:13:32 [FabienGandon]
A diagram would help explain the foaf part
15:13:33 [DanC]
(I'm torn... you never get a 2nd chance to make a 1st impression... but I really want to ship something in September. hmm.)
15:14:22 [FabienGandon]
Chimezie : need to explain the role of XFN in the example too.
15:14:41 [chimezie]
The main parts that weren't clear to me was the use of XFN and the role of 'spidering'
15:16:20 [FabienGandon]
Murray: Can we have the use case first then the primer then the spec this would give us some time and let people absorb the different docs
15:17:06 [FabienGandon]
Ian: I agree the primer could you some additional time.
15:17:25 [FabienGandon]
Harry: could we setup a comment list?
15:18:04 [DanC]
ideas: grddl-talk, public-grddl-comments
15:18:23 [iand]
it needs more time, but i think we should publish primer sooner not later and get more public feedback
15:18:49 [DanC]
perhaps public-grddl-talk
15:19:04 [DanC]
perhaps public-grddl-forum
15:19:46 [HarryH]
perhaps public-grddl-comments
15:19:53 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: set up public-grddl-comments
15:19:54 [FabienGandon]
ACTION: DanC to create the mailing list public-grddl-comments
15:20:06 [DanC]
action -1
15:20:30 [HarryH]
Zakim, next item
15:20:30 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Review of Use Cases document, reviewing actions from last meeting" taken up
15:21:13 [FabienGandon]
Murray: sent a review on the vocabulary.
15:21:33 [DanC]
1.33 glossary http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc43/scenario-gallery.htm
15:23:42 [FabienGandon]
Murray: the introduction I wrote for the specs could be used in other docs.
15:23:55 [chimezie]
both primer and usecase documents have different audiences so abstracts/intros would expected to be different in what they are tryin to communicate
15:25:49 [FabienGandon]
DanC: you need both teh abstract and an introduction.
15:26:36 [FabienGandon]
FG: for the time being I only maintain the abstract, if we need an intro we could get it from the last version of the abstract.
15:26:53 [DanC]
(abstract I just wrote is in 1.94 http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec )
15:28:07 [FabienGandon]
Murray: the introduction I wrote plus the one of the primer plus a simple example would be a good introduction far whome three docs.
15:28:32 [FabienGandon]
s/far whome/ for all
15:29:03 [FabienGandon]
Chimezie: the audience matters in the introduction
15:29:47 [DanC]
yes, "A number of documents contain data that could be valuable if they were automatically accessible." is good.
15:30:16 [FabienGandon]
Harry: I like Murray's intro; I don't want knowledge representation to appear in the intro
15:30:52 [FabienGandon]
DanC: want to get it out in September but seems we still some more discussions
15:33:18 [FabienGandon]
Chimezie: a common abstract could have an added value but the current versions are not too far from the quality to be shipped
15:34:36 [chimezie]
My problem with not using knowledge representation (or something similar) is that metadata doesn't really say anything.
15:35:05 [HarryH]
I believe I avoided both the words 'metadata' and 'knowledge represetnation' in my revised wording :)
15:36:02 [DanC]
. ACTION DanC: coordinate edits on the abstracts and intros thru Friday noon chicago/boston time
15:36:33 [FabienGandon]
ACTION: DanC to coordinate edits on the abstracts and intros thru Friday noon chicago/boston time
15:37:02 [FabienGandon]
Harry: uses cases should be published ASAP.
15:37:29 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to publish use cases http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc43/scenario-gallery.htm 1.33 + edits as agreed by 2 of DanC, Ian, Fabien, Murray by Friday noon chicago time
15:38:27 [HarryH]
my take on use-case intro in this e-mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Sep/0164.html
15:38:48 [DanC]
so RESOLVED.
15:39:57 [FabienGandon]
Ryager: I missed the date for the review.
15:40:35 [FabienGandon]
Ryager: I read the version of saturday and I approved it. I will re-read the next version.
15:40:45 [HarryH]
Zakim, who's on the phone
15:40:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', HarryH
15:41:29 [HarryH]
Zakim, who's here?
15:41:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see HarryH, Murray_Maloney, IanD, FabienGandon, Chimezie_Ogbuji, DanC, Rachel_Yager, [IPcaller]
15:41:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see briansuda, ryager, FabienGandon, RRSAgent, Zakim, chimezie, HarryH, iand, DanC
15:41:50 [DanC]
the PROPOSED/RESOLVED above is not quite right.
15:41:55 [FabienGandon]
Murray: discuss the vocabulary choice
15:42:35 [FabienGandon]
Chimezie: no strong feeling on this
15:43:04 [FabienGandon]
Ryager: the intro reads strange.
15:43:15 [chimezie]
my argument for terminology as is: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Sep/0178.html
15:43:16 [FabienGandon]
Danc: we are changing the intro.
15:44:40 [FabienGandon]
DanC: possible candidates: GRDDL-candidate doc, GRDDL source document, others? What are the preferences?
15:45:10 [FabienGandon]
Harry let's go arround the table.
15:45:45 [FabienGandon]
DanC: Processor ok, GRDDL(aware) agent, source document
15:45:46 [DanC]
I prefer GRDDL-aware agent/client, source document, GRDDL transformation
15:45:59 [FabienGandon]
Ian: like source document
15:46:02 [DanC]
I meant to say I *don't* like processor.
15:46:25 [FabienGandon]
Chimezie: like the doc as it is
15:46:48 [HarryH]
Harry: client rather than agent
15:47:31 [FabienGandon]
Harry: source doc ok, processor fine, transformation ok
15:48:00 [DanC]
FG: I hear "GRDDL client"...
15:48:07 [DanC]
MM: well, add "aware".
15:48:31 [DanC]
FG: and "source document" seems ok to me
15:48:34 [chimezie]
Agent has a specific connotation, client is so open-ended that is says nothing
15:48:39 [chimezie]
other than it operates over a network
15:49:25 [DanC]
MM: how about [missed] and "result document"?
15:49:40 [DanC]
CHI: I don't like "agent"... [missed some]
15:50:03 [DanC]
MM: "user agent" is the neutral term in place of "browser"
15:51:18 [DanC]
FG: source document, GRDDL transformation seem clear...
15:51:52 [DanC]
HH: I don't hear consensus around GRDDL processor/agent/client... "aware"...
15:52:06 [DanC]
DC: whereas it doesn't affect running code, I'm happy to delegate to the editor, i.e. have FG pick
15:54:12 [DanC]
HH: or maybe "agent" is the preference?
15:54:27 [FabienGandon]
My opinion: "source document", "GRDDL transformation", "GRDDL agent"
15:54:56 [FabienGandon]
Consensus: "source document", "GRDDL transformation", "GRDDL-aware agent"
15:55:01 [DanC]
HH: so "grddl aware agent", "source document", "GRDDL transformation"?
15:55:12 [HarryH]
result document?
15:56:04 [DanC]
(no objection to "grddl aware agent", "source document", "GRDDL transformation")
15:56:14 [DanC]
MM: and "result document"?
15:57:32 [DanC]
HH: any objection to s/GRDDL result document/result document/?
15:57:55 [DanC]
RY: I don't like "GRDDL result document"
15:58:03 [HarryH]
RESOLVED: vocabulary is "grddl-aware agent" "source document" "GRDDL transformation" "result document"
15:58:06 [FabienGandon]
ACTION: Fabien to use "source document", "result document", "GRDDL transformation", "GRDDL-aware agent"
15:58:41 [FabienGandon]
Harry: consensus about the rest of the doc?
15:58:51 [FabienGandon]
DanC: pictures.
15:59:10 [DanC]
MM: I just meant that the edits should include the pictures as well as the text.
16:00:10 [FabienGandon]
Chimezie: objections from Danny on wiki pictures and xform picture.
16:00:56 [DanC]
FG: I'm working on integrating a figure suggestion from chime
16:01:20 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to publish use cases http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc43/scenario-gallery.htm 1.33 + edits as agreed by 2 of DanC, Ian, Fabien, Murray by Friday noon chicago time
16:01:29 [FabienGandon]
ACTION: Fabien to integrate Chimezie's picture about XForms
16:02:55 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to publish use cases http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc43/scenario-gallery.htm 1.33 + edits to introduction, glossary, and XForms diagram as agreed by 2 of DanC, Ian, Fabien, Murray by Friday noon chicago time
16:02:57 [FabienGandon]
HarryH: try to avoid changing everything before releasing
16:03:53 [FabienGandon]
Murray: I second the proposal
16:04:02 [FabienGandon]
No objection.
16:04:06 [DanC]
so RESOLVED.
16:06:14 [FabienGandon]
HarryH: do we release the primer on friday?
16:07:43 [FabienGandon]
DanC: if we are happy with the inro and abstract? can we ship the primer too? I would like to ship both the primer and uses case docs at the same time.
16:10:03 [FabienGandon]
ACTION: Fabien to try to get a diagram on the XFN part of the primer before friday.
16:12:12 [FabienGandon]
Chimezie: we need more details to understand the XFN and make the diagram.
16:12:21 [DanC]
noodling on proposal: PROPOSED: to release GRDDL Primer as a W3C WD, contingent on OK from Harry and Chime on XFN-related edits.
16:14:49 [DanC]
MM: the signposting [?] is misleading. I'd really like the section headings changed as I suggested.
16:15:21 [FabienGandon]
IanD: I don't understand what is misleading.
16:17:11 [FabienGandon]
DanC: may be we are asking the reader to store too much before getting to the punch line.
16:19:45 [FabienGandon]
MM: it is not a big pb i.e. we shouldn't stop publishing because of that.
16:19:54 [DanC]
6180 2006-09-27 13:29:57Z
16:20:37 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to release GRDDL Primer v 6180 + edits to abstract, intro agreed by IanD+DanC as a W3C WD, contingent on OK from Harry and Chime on XFN-related edits.
16:21:21 [FabienGandon]
Chimezie: I second.
16:21:31 [DanC]
so RESOLVED.
16:23:15 [FabienGandon]
DanC: people on critical path are DanC, Chimezie, Ian, Harry, Murray, Fabien
16:24:08 [ryager]
I've to run. See you!
16:24:21 [Zakim]
-Rachel_Yager
16:24:35 [FabienGandon]
HarryH: could we check with the coordination group.
16:24:56 [DanC]
target timing: request to webmaster Fri, title page date Mon 2 Oct, publication on 2, 3, 4, or 5 Oct.
16:24:58 [Zakim]
-Murray_Maloney
16:25:08 [Zakim]
-Chimezie_Ogbuji
16:25:10 [Zakim]
-IanD
16:25:14 [Zakim]
-DanC
16:25:16 [Zakim]
-HarryH
16:25:20 [HarryH]
Gotta run!
16:25:20 [Zakim]
-briansuda
16:25:25 [Zakim]
-FabienGandon
16:25:26 [Zakim]
SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has ended
16:25:27 [Zakim]
Attendees were Murray_Maloney, FabienGandon, Chimezie_Ogbuji, DanC, HarryH, IanD, Rachel_Yager, briansuda
16:26:25 [DanC]
* chimezie gives regrets for next week
16:26:31 [DanC]
me too. I'm at a TAG meeting.
16:26:38 [FabienGandon]
rrsagent, please set these logs public
16:28:19 [FabienGandon]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:28:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/27-grddl-wg-minutes.html FabienGandon
16:29:57 [FabienGandon]
Zakim, list attendees
16:29:57 [Zakim]
sorry, FabienGandon, I don't know what conference this is
17:14:08 [briansuda]
briansuda has joined #grddl-wg
18:40:07 [Zakim]
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