19:48:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ws-addr
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19:48:29 <bob> zakim, this will be ws_addrwg
19:48:29 <Zakim> ok, bob; I see WS_AddrWG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
19:48:54 <bob> Meeting: Web Services Addressing WG Teleconference
19:49:03 <bob> Chair: Bob Freund
19:49:50 <bob> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing/2006Sep/0036.html
19:52:20 <bob> rrsagent, make logs public
19:53:14 <David_Illsley> David_Illsley has joined #ws-addr
19:53:52 <Jonathan> Jonathan has joined #ws-addr
19:56:09 <bob> regrets+ katy
19:57:49 <plh> plh has joined #ws-addr
19:58:38 <pauld> pauld has joined #ws-addr
19:58:51 <Zakim> WS_AddrWG()4:00PM has now started
19:58:57 <Zakim> +Bob_Freund
19:59:08 <plh> tel:+1.617.258.0992 (Office)
19:59:10 <plh> oops
19:59:14 <Zakim> +Plh
19:59:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:59:49 <plh> zakim, ipcaller is David
19:59:49 <Zakim> +David; got it
19:59:58 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Marsh
20:00:01 <David_Illsley> zakim, mute me
20:00:01 <Zakim> sorry, David_Illsley, I do not see a party named 'David_Illsley'
20:00:17 <David_Illsley> zakim, mute David
20:00:17 <Zakim> David should now be muted
20:00:23 <PaulKnight> PaulKnight has joined #ws-addr
20:00:35 <anish> anish has joined #ws-addr
20:00:37 <Zakim> +Paul_Downey
20:00:47 <TonyR> TonyR has joined #ws-addr
20:01:41 <David_Illsley> zakim, David is really me
20:01:41 <Zakim> +David_Illsley; got it
20:01:47 <prasad> prasad has joined #ws-addr
20:01:54 <Zakim> +??P9
20:02:00 <Zakim> + +1.503.228.aaaa
20:02:05 <gpilz> gpilz has joined #ws-addr
20:02:18 <Zakim> +??P12
20:02:20 <prasad> zakim, ??P12 is prasad
20:02:20 <Zakim> +prasad; got it
20:02:25 <bob> zakim ??P9 is yenling
20:02:26 <Zakim> +Paul_Knight
20:02:35 <Zakim> +Gilbert_Pilz
20:02:39 <Zakim> +Marc_Hadley
20:02:42 <pauld> zakim, aaaa is Anish
20:02:42 <Zakim> sorry, pauld, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
20:03:04 <pauld> zakim, .aaaa is Anish
20:03:04 <Zakim> sorry, pauld, I do not recognize a party named '.aaaa'
20:03:29 <bob> zakim, whi is on the phone
20:03:29 <Zakim> I don't understand 'whi is on the phone', bob
20:03:43 <Zakim> +??P0
20:03:53 <TonyR> zakim, ??p0 is me
20:03:54 <Zakim> +TonyR; got it
20:04:10 <TonyR> zakim, ??p9 is yinleng
20:04:10 <Zakim> +yinleng; got it
20:04:24 <Zakim> +DOrchard
20:05:07 <David_Illsley> zakim, unmute me
20:05:07 <Zakim> David_Illsley should no longer be muted
20:05:23 <dorchard> dorchard has joined #ws-addr
20:05:30 <Zakim> +[IBM]
20:05:35 <Zakim> +David_Hull
20:05:44 <Paco> Paco has joined #ws-addr
20:05:56 <plh> zakim, ibm holds Paco
20:05:56 <Zakim> +Paco; got it
20:06:54 <Jonathan> Scribe: Jonathan
20:07:02 <Zakim> +GlenD
20:07:04 <dhull> dhull has joined #ws-addr
20:07:20 <GlenD> GlenD has joined #ws-addr
20:07:31 <Jonathan> Topic: Agenda Review
20:07:37 <Jonathan> Meeting: WS-Addressing WG telcon
20:07:39 <Jonathan> Chair: Bob
20:07:44 <Jonathan> Agenda accepted
20:07:57 <Jonathan> Topic: Approval of minutes
20:08:06 <dhull> minutes look OK
20:08:16 <Jonathan> Minutes accepted as mailed
20:08:51 <Jonathan> Bob: Goal to reach conclusion on CR33, which is blocking CR31, which is blocking ending CR.
20:09:03 <Jonathan> ... Been working this for a couple of months, we need to conclude.
20:09:09 <Jonathan> Topic: Action Items:
20:09:31 <Jonathan>  2006-08-21: cr31 - Tony Rogers to implement CHANGE 1&2 to the table in preparation for CR-31  PENDING
20:09:52 <Jonathan> ... will be done later today
20:10:18 <Jonathan> Topic: Coordination and New Issues
20:10:49 <Jonathan> Bob: Policy is requesting a non-normative referenec to WS-Policy.
20:11:00 <Jonathan> Proposal: "The wsaw:UsingAddressing element MAY also be used in other contexts (e.g., as a policy assertion in a policy framework <such as WS-Policy [REF]>)."
20:11:00 <Jonathan>  
20:11:25 <Jonathan> Philippe: Request didn't go to publich list... link here:
20:11:39 <Jonathan> s/publich/public/
20:11:41 <plh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-policy/2006Sep/0133.html
20:12:12 <Jonathan> Bob: Controversial?
20:12:23 <Jonathan> Tony: That's what we were suggesting as well...
20:12:39 <Jonathan> Bob: No objections heard to adding this as a new issue, closing it by accepting the proposal.
20:12:56 <Jonathan> Topic: CR033
20:13:15 <Jonathan> Bob: Proposal 4 was posted last week by Anish, but we didn't have time to go over.
20:13:54 <Jonathan> Anish: Background: we have the wsaw:Anonymous marker, restricting values of FaultTo and ReplyTo, which we've modified to accomodate "none".
20:14:06 <bob> zakim, who is making noise
20:14:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', bob
20:14:23 <dorchard> zakim, mute me
20:14:23 <Zakim> DOrchard should now be muted
20:14:32 <dorchard> zakim, who's speaking?
20:14:38 <David_Illsley> zakim, mute me
20:14:39 <Zakim> David_Illsley should now be muted
20:14:44 <Zakim> dorchard, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: anish (81%), GlenD (9%)
20:14:47 <Jonathan> ... WS-RX came up with an anonymous template, with slightly different semantics.  It says "the current backchannel that has the same uuid as the current makeconnection."
20:15:00 <dorchard> zakim, mute GlenD
20:15:00 <Zakim> GlenD should now be muted
20:15:13 <Jonathan> ... This isn't composible with wsaw:Anonymous.
20:15:34 <Jonathan> ... We need instead to talk about addressable endpoints rather than equivalent to our anonymous URI.
20:15:51 <Jonathan> ... Some folks asked for something runtime verifiable.
20:17:05 <Jonathan> ... The wsaw:isAnon flag in the message allows the service to verify that the non-Anon URI still should go on the backchannel.
20:17:28 <bob> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing/2006Sep/0028.html
20:17:28 <Jonathan> ... Proposal here:
20:18:01 <Jonathan> ... Under "required" and "prohibited", the address has to be anon, none, or marked isAnon="true".
20:18:39 <Jonathan> ... Other specs could use this to define variants of anon or none.
20:18:59 <dhull> q+
20:19:42 <bob> ack dhull
20:20:12 <Jonathan> David: In allowing none with anon, how did we deal with HTTP response?
20:20:28 <Jonathan> ... HTTP users will no be able to handle none.
20:22:20 <Jonathan> ... To the issue, the changes are interesting, signalling anonymity by something other than through a URI.
20:22:36 <Jonathan> ... Our core is extensible.
20:22:48 <Jonathan> ... Seems to obviate the need for the anon URI.,
20:23:41 <Jonathan> ... Have we thought through how the two work together, and how disruptive it is to what we have, 
20:23:48 <anish> q+
20:23:48 <dorchard> q+ to ask about putting in the core
20:24:06 <bob> ack anish
20:24:44 <Jonathan> Anish: I think it's fairly limited.  If this is marked in the WSDL, when you send a request, your FaultTo or ReplyTo can be any URI.
20:24:49 <Jonathan> q+
20:25:14 <Jonathan> Anish: If the client doesn't understand it, it simply won't put it in...
20:25:31 <bob> ack dorch
20:25:32 <Zakim> dorchard, you wanted to ask about putting in the core
20:25:45 <Jonathan> DaveO: What about putting it in core?
20:25:45 <Paco> q+
20:26:13 <Jonathan> ... saw Jonathan's note, agreed putting wsdl-markers into runtime stuff seems suspect.
20:26:32 <Jonathan> ... sent recent mail about putting it into the core (straw man).  I'll make the argument it's not an incompatible change.
20:26:49 <Jonathan> ... We could put this in the Core namespace, and look at sending/receiving behaviors.
20:27:03 <Jonathan> ... We can see how forward/backward compatible it is.
20:27:15 <Jonathan> ... I squinted and think it might be a compatible change.
20:27:31 <bob> q?
20:27:47 <Jonathan> ... If someone comes along and says it's a non-compatible change to the core, then it's hard to want to do as an extension.
20:27:52 <dhull> +1 in that the document doesn't matter
20:28:22 <Jonathan> ... In a sense this is adding a kind of typing behavior.  We only provide a URI there, but we don't have a model for filling in your own values.
20:28:44 <Jonathan> ... Adding run-time typing might be an important change to do.
20:28:50 <dorchard> zakim,  mute me
20:28:50 <Zakim> DOrchard should now be muted
20:29:00 <bob> ack jona
20:29:53 <Jonathan> Jonathan: Marker might mean: ignore any validation you might do based on wsaw:Anonymous="required".
20:30:45 <Jonathan> Anish: no, that means in the ReplyTo and FaultTo must either be wsa anonymous, none, or any other URI.
20:30:57 <TonyR> q+
20:31:23 <Jonathan> Jonathan: what's the difference?
20:31:52 <dorchard> Jonathan's point about "ignoring validation" is somewhat true, the marker does say "ignore the value".
20:32:07 <Jonathan> Anish: I don't ignore it, I include the recognition of wsaw:isAnon.
20:32:18 <dorchard> Jonathan: There is no restriction on the value if the anon attrib is set.
20:32:59 <gpilz> q+
20:33:02 <dorchard> Jonathan: When WS-A processor sees this, then it ignores the value, therefore it's core
20:33:20 <dorchard> jonathan: there are 2 different ways of looking at this
20:33:25 <dhull> so if the server sees isanon=true, then it basically pretends the [address] was anon?
20:33:41 <Jonathan> Jonathan: Thinks there are two ways to look at this proposal.
20:33:43 <dorchard> jonathan: 1 way is that the wsdl is overridden, the other is overridiing core validation.
20:33:46 <bob> ack paco
20:33:59 <gpilz> q-
20:34:19 <Jonathan> Paco: Is the intent that when you've got the flag, you can put any URI, or one that represents the backchannel?
20:34:50 <dhull> q+
20:35:14 <Jonathan> Anish: As far as this marker goes, and as far as WSDL validation goes, then it follows the rules for the marker. You still need to process the special URI.
20:35:31 <Jonathan> Paco: What if I give you an addressable URI with wsaw:isAnon="true"?
20:35:57 <Jonathan> Anish: wsaw:Anonymous="required" means the response will always be on the backchannel.
20:36:21 <Jonathan> ... The specific URI in the EPR may have a specific meaning.
20:36:30 <Jonathan> Paco: That meaning has to be compatible with the backchannel behavior?
20:36:43 <Jonathan> ... My question is about the backward compatibility issue:
20:36:49 <dorchard> zakim, unmute me
20:36:49 <Zakim> DOrchard should no longer be muted
20:37:11 <Jonathan> ... A client sends this marker to an old endpoint.  Maybe the old endpoint doesn't understand the marker, it will choke because it doesn't understand the URI.
20:37:19 <Jonathan> ... But the WS-A processor will still choke.
20:37:43 <Jonathan> DaveO: If WS-A processing is done first, it will choke.  A layer before addressing might be able to handle it.
20:38:48 <Jonathan> Paco: Suppose you have WS-A deployed, and we have RM deployed (assume somebody uses special backchannel).  Now we publish this spec with the new flag, everyone crashes
20:38:49 <gpilz> q+
20:39:02 <Jonathan> (not sure I got that whole thing).
20:39:08 <Jonathan> DaveO: Not backward compatible?
20:39:15 <Jonathan> Paco: Not convinced it won't break existing endpoints.
20:39:38 <Jonathan> ... A client sends to a previously deployed endpoint.  The endpoint breaks.
20:40:09 <Jonathan> Gil: You're presuming that you can already use the WS-RM URI.  But that's why we have this issue in the first place.
20:40:33 <Jonathan> Paco: Concerned about pushing something to the runtime something we should do in the WSDL.
20:40:59 <Jonathan> ... I think we're too tight in assuming who will manage connections.
20:41:18 <Jonathan> Anish: Seem to be pointing to the previous proposal.
20:41:35 <Jonathan> Paco: Yes, sorry to go back there.  We should have a better marker than a runtime artifact.
20:42:06 <Jonathan> DaveO: Do you see any way we can support WS-RM's anonymous with wsaw:Anonymous?
20:42:28 <Jonathan> ... Any change to RM that isn't also incompatible with WS-Addressing?
20:42:52 <Jonathan> Paco: You put it well - we're assuming to much about how much validation we do.
20:42:58 <anish> btw, paco, i would be ok with the previous proposal (or some version of it)
20:43:12 <Jonathan> DaveO: Even changing the marker is not compatible.
20:43:20 <Jonathan> Paco: Marker isn't done yet.  We can change that.
20:43:40 <dorchard> q?
20:43:41 <anish> q+
20:43:42 <Jonathan> ... Sympathetic to the problem, but don't like this solution for the backward compatibility reasons.
20:43:55 <gpilz> q-
20:43:58 <bob> ack tonyr
20:44:10 <dorchard> zakim, mute me
20:44:10 <Zakim> DOrchard should now be muted
20:44:31 <Jonathan> Tony: Jonathan recorded Anish as saying that anonymous=required means anon, none, or any other uri, but should say any other uri with anon=true.
20:45:21 <Jonathan> ... Thinks Jonathan misminuted it.
20:47:22 <Jonathan> Jonathan: Trying to tease out what "any other uri" means.
20:47:24 <GlenD> Tony was exactly right - when isAnon="true" that means "do NOT interpret this URI in the naive way (by just trying to send to it) - something special is going on"
20:47:45 <bob> q?
20:47:51 <bob> ack dhull
20:47:52 <Jonathan> Tony: You need something to process that special URI.
20:49:11 <Jonathan> DaveH: Only difference between an EPR with an addressable value, and the same EPR with isAnon="true" is...
20:49:38 <Jonathan> scratch above line.
20:50:05 <Jonathan> DaveH: What's the difference to an anon-like address and an anon-like address marked as isAnon?
20:50:20 <Jonathan> Tony: Should be no difference on the wire.
20:50:27 <gpilz> q+
20:50:33 <Jonathan> DaveH: We're just spelling anonymous differently.
20:50:43 <bob> ack anish
20:50:49 <Paco> q+
20:51:09 <Jonathan> Anish: We want to see WS-A and WS-RM composable.  We aren't right now. 
20:51:43 <Jonathan> ... I don't want to make it hard to turn on RM on an endpoint that only operates on the backchannel - without removing things from the WSDL.
20:52:01 <Jonathan> ... Several ways to solve this problem.
20:52:21 <Jonathan> ... We can ask WS-RM to redesign, which they already rejected.
20:53:12 <Jonathan> ... They sent one proposal to loosen the tightness between the marker and WS-A anon.
20:53:28 <Jonathan> ... I wrote up the isAnon marker proposal.
20:53:43 <Jonathan> ... I don't want to see that these two spescs aren't compatible.  Worst solution possible.
20:54:14 <Jonathan> ... Second edition of Core, kicking back to WS-RM, etc. anything is better.
20:54:25 <bob> ack gpil
20:54:47 <Jonathan> Gil: Wanted to answer DaveH, what's the difference when you add isAnon=true.  Trying to communicate it one more time.
20:55:17 <Jonathan> ... Imagine you have a service that needs to be reliable.  Need to retry responses when it determines it must.
20:55:34 <Jonathan> ... Now imagine Alice and Bob connecting to the service.  Neither supports a listener.
20:56:07 <Jonathan> ... From the service's perspective, if it needs to resend a response back to Alice, it can't disambiguate between Alice and Bob.
20:56:33 <Jonathan> ... Both are addressed using the anonymous URI.  It's got no information to correlate the replies.
20:56:54 <Jonathan> ... We've split out the fact of anon meaning use the back channel, leaving the uuid to disambiguate Alice and Bob.
20:57:07 <Jonathan> DaveH: Gets that, talked about sending a cookie along.
20:57:35 <Jonathan> Gil: Alice's wire and Bob's wire are different wires.
20:57:45 <Jonathan> DaveH: You can't disambiguate that from the request.
20:58:00 <Jonathan> Gil: Might need to create a new sequence, so you need to know who it came from.
20:58:07 <Jonathan> DaveH: Can't use wsa:From?
20:58:14 <Jonathan> Gil: At risk?
20:58:36 <Jonathan> DaveH: Might be a good use for it.
20:58:36 <bob> ack paco
20:59:20 <Jonathan> Paco: With the isAnon marker, when I use the wsaw:Anonymous="required", that means the service trusts you to send a URI that encodes "anonymoous".
20:59:44 <Jonathan> ... Key point is that when you use the flag, you trust the client.
20:59:53 <Jonathan> Tony: That's how I understand it.
21:00:08 <Jonathan> Paco: You either send the real thing, or we trust you.  We give up validation.
21:00:59 <Jonathan> ... if this is fundamentally changing the meaning of the marker.  Why don't we make the marker informational: "I always send the response on the backchannel."
21:01:21 <Jonathan> Anish: I'm fine with proposal 1 which is about asserting what the service can and cannot do.
21:01:42 <Jonathan> ... If the service says it can't do callbacks, it will send a fault.
21:01:58 <Jonathan> ... The complaint was the requirement is too fuzzy.  I think that's OK.
21:02:21 <Jonathan> Paco: Looks like when we put in this marker, and suspend validation.
21:03:44 <Jonathan> Jonathan: In the absence of WSDL, does isAnon="true" change any behavior?
21:03:56 <Zakim> -yinleng
21:03:57 <Jonathan> Tony: Yes, the response will come on the backchannel.
21:04:27 <chad> chad has joined #ws-addr
21:04:46 <Jonathan> Anish: Can't say anything about what the behavior might be without WSDL.
21:05:08 <pauld> can't help thinking this belongs in core
21:05:12 <dhull> q+
21:05:24 <pauld> and that ship has sailed, for 1.0 anyway
21:06:09 <pauld> chad, question: options for cr33, again
21:06:24 <pauld> chad, option 0: Status Quo
21:06:55 <dhull> chad, option 1: Status quo, but clarify that "optional" makes no statement about what other addresses will work
21:07:35 <dhull> chad, option 2: Remove wsaw:anonymous and use Policy
21:07:35 <Jonathan> Anish: Doesn't change behavior.  The client is asserting it's anonymous.
21:07:44 <gpilz> q+
21:07:53 <gpilz> q-
21:08:05 <TonyR> chad option 9: misunderstand the proposal
21:08:14 <marc> marc has joined #ws-addr
21:08:15 <TonyR> chad, list options
21:10:13 <Jonathan> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/addr/cr-issues/#cr33
21:11:27 <TonyR> chad option 4: provide a marker to let a URI slide past the wsaw:Anonymous validation (Anish's proposal of today)
21:12:38 <TonyR> chad option 5: provide a marker to indicate that a URI requires a response on the backchannel
21:13:02 <pauld> chad, options?
21:13:56 <dorchard> q+ to ask about option #4
21:14:20 <dorchard> zakim, unmute me
21:14:20 <Zakim> DOrchard should no longer be muted
21:14:23 <TonyR> chad option 3: Remove wsaw:anonymous and use policy (Katy's proposal)
21:14:54 <Jonathan> option2: <wsaw:NewConnection> proposal
21:15:01 <Jonathan> chad, option 2: <wsaw:NewConnection> proposal
21:15:02 <bob> ack dorch
21:15:02 <Zakim> dorchard, you wanted to ask about option #4
21:15:38 <Jonathan> DaveO: If I make up a new URI that means "don't use the backchannel", and I mark it as isAnon="true"
21:15:59 <dhull> q+ to comment on option 0
21:16:07 <Jonathan> ... that means that if someone has wsaw:Anonymous="required", I will process it.
21:16:23 <Jonathan> Anish: Yes, but the service will still need to process that URI, if it understands it.
21:16:42 <Jonathan> DaveO: I'm just going to inject this in there so that WS-A isn't going to fault either.
21:16:47 <gpilz> q+
21:16:51 <Jonathan> Anish: Paradox.
21:17:20 <Jonathan> DaveO: Two levels of validation.  WSDL-based, WS-A.  We'll hope these aren't incompatible.
21:17:39 <Jonathan> ... Thought the proposal was a bit more strongly-typed.  Guess not.
21:17:43 <anish> q+
21:17:47 <bob> ack dhull
21:17:47 <Zakim> dhull, you wanted to comment on option 0
21:17:52 <dorchard> zakim, mute me
21:17:52 <Zakim> DOrchard should now be muted
21:18:24 <Jonathan> DaveH: From what I could tell, some is based on the misconception that wsaw:Anonymous="optional" means any URI will work.  It doesn't, just that you can put anon URI there.
21:18:30 <TonyR> chad, list options
21:18:32 <Jonathan> ... Might want to emphasize that point in the text.
21:18:44 <Jonathan> ... which could be composed with Option 0 - status quo.
21:18:54 <dorchard> q+ to ask about Paco's "kind of proposal"
21:20:11 <Jonathan> Option 0.1 Status quo, but clarify that "optional" makes no statement about what other addresses will work 
21:20:19 <Jonathan> Option 2: Change MUST to SHOULD 
21:20:26 <marc> q+ to ask about option 3
21:20:29 <Jonathan> chad, Option 2: Change MUST to SHOULD 
21:20:39 <Jonathan> chad, Option 0.1 Status quo, but clarify that "optional" makes no statement about what other addresses will work 
21:20:49 <anish> q?
21:20:50 <dorchard> q?
21:20:58 <Jonathan> chad, Option 0: Status quo, but (possibly) clarify that "optional" makes no statement about what other addresses will work 
21:21:17 <bob> ack gpilz
21:21:30 <pauld> chad, say hi
21:21:32 <Jonathan> Gil: Dug preferred Option 1 so each specification can maintain lists of URIs with anonymous semantics.
21:21:40 <Jonathan> ... right?
21:21:58 <anish> chad, list options
21:21:59 <bob> q?
21:22:01 <Jonathan> Bob: Loosen MUST to SHOULD so that you could rationalize the conflict.
21:22:18 <Jonathan> Gil: Core already allows other URIs with anonymous semantics, right>?
21:22:22 <Jonathan> Bob: right.
21:22:24 <bob> ack anish
21:22:36 <Jonathan> chad, Option 1: Change MUST to SHOULD 
21:22:45 <Jonathan> chad, option 2: <wsaw:NewConnection> proposal
21:22:46 <TonyR> chad option 1: change MUST to SHOULD (allows for other specs to define anon URIs)
21:22:48 <Jonathan> chad, options?
21:23:19 <Jonathan> Anish: Server needs to understand the URI in the address.  If the server doesn't it will barf or make assumptions.
21:23:23 <dorchard> zakim, unmute me
21:23:23 <Zakim> DOrchard should no longer be muted
21:23:37 <Jonathan> ... Personally I like (2)...
21:23:43 <bob> q?
21:24:22 <Jonathan> Anish: Regardless of whether isAnon is present or not, there is a URI which, if specified ala WS-RM, if the service doesn't understand that URI and know what to do, it will fault or do something strange.
21:24:33 <Jonathan> ... The service still has to understand what that URI means.
21:25:10 <Jonathan> ... I like (2) because it still validates, just says the service can/can't/must use backchannels.
21:25:31 <bob> q?
21:25:41 <bob> ack dorch
21:25:41 <Zakim> dorchard, you wanted to ask about Paco's "kind of proposal"
21:26:11 <Jonathan> DaveO: Were you talking about option 1 earlier?
21:26:21 <Jonathan> Paco: Thinks 1 is closer.
21:26:26 <Jonathan> Paco: Thinks 2 is closer.
21:26:47 <bob> ack marc
21:26:47 <Zakim> marc, you wanted to ask about option 3
21:27:00 <Jonathan> Marc: Option 3, does this mean?
21:27:04 <Jonathan> DaveO: Duck and run.
21:27:05 <dorchard> zakim, mute me
21:27:05 <Zakim> DOrchard should now be muted
21:28:22 <dhull> q+
21:29:02 <Jonathan> Joanthan: Indicates frustration with the baked-ness of wsaw:Anonymous, perhaps we shouldn't be RECOMMENDING this yet.
21:29:18 <Jonathan> Jonathan: Policy is a distraction.
21:29:33 <GlenD> GlenD has joined #ws-addr
21:30:00 <Jonathan> DaveH: Idea is that policy might be a more composable framework for solving these kinds of problems better.
21:30:06 <anish> i would like to speak against proposal 3 -- without that, there is no way to specify "async" request response, like what rosettanet wants
21:30:17 <anish> that ==> wsaw:Anonymous
21:30:24 <Jonathan> ... Seems like a serious alternative to coming up with a special-purpose hard-wired WSDL marker.
21:30:42 <dorchard> q+
21:30:44 <bob> ack dhull
21:30:50 <gpilz> q+
21:31:03 <TonyR> chad, list options
21:31:06 <dorchard> zakim, unmute me
21:31:06 <Zakim> DOrchard should no longer be muted
21:31:12 <bob> ack dorch
21:31:15 <gpilz> q-
21:31:17 <Jonathan> DaveO: Does 2 solve RM's problem?
21:31:28 <Jonathan> Anish: I think so.
21:31:51 <dorchard> zakim, mute me
21:31:51 <Zakim> DOrchard should now be muted
21:31:53 <GlenD> Gotta run, folks.  I'm going to abstain on this one, assuming we vote in the next 30 min. 
21:32:15 <Jonathan> ... It makes assertions about whether the backchannel can be used.
21:32:19 <Jonathan> ... or must
21:32:32 <Zakim> -GlenD
21:32:55 <bob> q?
21:33:09 <Jonathan> Gil: specifically lists the URIs that indicate the backchannel.
21:33:29 <Jonathan> Anish: Just shows examples of URIs that indicate the backchannel...
21:33:31 <Zakim> -prasad
21:34:55 <anish> vote: 2, 4, 5, 1
21:34:56 <Jonathan> vote: 3,0
21:34:58 <gpilz> vote 2, 5, 4, 1
21:35:02 <David_Illsley> vote 3,2,1
21:35:05 <pauld> vote: 3, 0
21:35:11 <Paco> vote: 3, 2, 1
21:35:13 <gpilz> vote: 2, 5, 4, 1
21:35:20 <marc> vote: 0, 4
21:35:23 <dhull> vote: 0, 3, 5, 4
21:35:27 <TonyR> vote 5, 3, 0, 9, 4, 1
21:35:40 <PaulKnight> vote 3,2,0
21:36:08 <David_Illsley> vote: 3,2,1
21:36:08 <Jonathan> chad, votes?
21:36:09 <plh> vote 1, 0, 3, 2
21:36:09 <PaulKnight> vote: 3, 2, 0
21:36:21 <Jonathan> chad, votes?
21:36:24 <plh> vote: 1, 0, 3, 2
21:36:25 <TonyR> vote: 0, 5, 3, 9, 4, 1
21:36:30 <Jonathan> chad, votes?
21:37:07 <pauld> chad, count
21:37:08 <chad> Question: options for cr33, again
21:37:08 <chad>     Option 0: Status quo, but (possibly) clarify that "optional" makes no statement about what other addresses will work (3)
21:37:08 <chad>     Option 1: change MUST to SHOULD (allows for other specs to define anon URIs) (1)
21:37:08 <chad>     Option 2: <wsaw:NewConnection> proposal (2)
21:37:08 <chad>     Option 3: Remove wsaw:anonymous and use policy (Katy's proposal) (5)
21:37:10 <chad>     Option 4: provide a marker to let a URI slide past the wsaw:Anonymous validation (Anish's proposal of today) (0)
21:37:13 <chad>     Option 5: provide a marker to indicate that a URI requires a response on the backchannel (0)
21:37:15 <chad>     Option 9: misunderstand the proposal (0)
21:37:17 <chad> 11 voters: anish (2,4,5,1),David_Illsley (3,2,1),dhull (0,3,5,4),gpilz (2,5,4,1),Jonathan (3,0),marc (0,4),Paco (3,2,1),pauld (3,0),PaulKnight (3,2,0),plh (1,0,3,2),TonyR (0,5,3,9,4,1)
21:37:20 <chad> Round  1: Count of first place rankings.
21:37:22 <chad> Round  2: First elimination round.
21:37:24 <chad>           Eliminating candidadates without any votes.
21:37:26 <chad>           Eliminating candidate 4.
21:37:28 <chad>           Eliminating candidate 5.
21:37:30 <chad>           Eliminating candidate 9.
21:37:32 <chad> Round  3: Eliminating candidate 1.
21:37:34 <chad> Round  4: Eliminating candidate 2.
21:37:36 <chad> Round  5: Eliminating candidate 0.
21:37:38 <chad>           Candidate 3 is elected.
21:37:40 <uyalcina> uyalcina has joined #ws-addr
21:37:40 <chad> Winner is option 3 - Remove wsaw:anonymous and use policy (Katy's proposal)
21:38:51 <dorchard> zakim, unmute me
21:38:51 <Zakim> DOrchard should no longer be muted
21:39:00 <Jonathan> Bob: 0 and 3 are the most popular options.
21:39:13 <Jonathan> DaveO: Might want to do a runoff between 3, 0, 2
21:39:49 <pauld> chad, drop option 9
21:39:49 <chad> dropped option 9
21:40:07 <pauld> chad, drop option 4
21:40:07 <chad> dropped option 4
21:40:12 <jeffm> jeffm has joined #ws-addr
21:40:49 <pauld> chad, drop option 1
21:40:49 <chad> dropped option 1
21:40:51 <anish> chad, list options
21:41:00 <pauld> chad, drop option 5
21:41:00 <chad> dropped option 5
21:41:06 <pauld> chad, count
21:41:06 <chad> Question: options for cr33, again
21:41:06 <chad>     Option 0: Status quo, but (possibly) clarify that "optional" makes no statement about what other addresses will work (4)
21:41:06 <chad>     Option 2: <wsaw:NewConnection> proposal (2)
21:41:06 <chad>     Option 3: Remove wsaw:anonymous and use policy (Katy's proposal) (5)
21:41:06 <chad> 11 voters: anish (2),David_Illsley (3,2),dhull (0,3),gpilz (2),Jonathan (3,0),marc (0),Paco (3,2),pauld (3,0),PaulKnight (3,2,0),plh (0,3,2),TonyR (0,3)
21:41:07 <TonyR> vote: 0,3,2
21:41:09 <chad> Round  1: Count of first place rankings.
21:41:11 <chad> Round  2: Eliminating candidate 2.
21:41:13 <chad> Round  3: Eliminating candidate 0.
21:41:15 <dorchard> vote: 2
21:41:15 <chad>           Candidate 3 is elected.
21:41:17 <chad> Winner is option 3 - Remove wsaw:anonymous and use policy (Katy's proposal)
21:41:28 <Jonathan> vote: 3,0
21:41:31 <anish> vote: 2, 0
21:41:32 <David_Illsley> vote: 3
21:41:37 <dorchard> vote: 2, 0
21:41:37 <PaulKnight> vote: 3, 0
21:41:38 <pauld> vote: 3,0
21:41:39 <dhull> vote: 0, 3
21:41:39 <gpilz> vote: 2
21:41:41 <uyalcina> vote:0
21:41:43 <marc> vote: 0
21:41:43 <Paco> vote: 3
21:41:51 <jeffm> vote: 2,0
21:41:56 <plh> vote: 3,0,2
21:42:18 <pauld> chad, votes?
21:42:36 <uyalcina> vote:0,2
21:43:03 <pauld> chad, count
21:43:03 <chad> Question: options for cr33, again
21:43:03 <chad>     Option 0: Status quo, but (possibly) clarify that "optional" makes no statement about what other addresses will work (4)
21:43:03 <chad>     Option 2: <wsaw:NewConnection> proposal (4)
21:43:03 <chad>     Option 3: Remove wsaw:anonymous and use policy (Katy's proposal) (6)
21:43:03 <chad> 14 voters: anish (2,0),David_Illsley (3),dhull (0,3),dorchard (2,0),gpilz (2),jeffm (2,0),Jonathan (3,0),marc (0),Paco (3),pauld (3,0),PaulKnight (3,0),plh (3,0,2),TonyR (0,3,2),uyalcina (0,2)
21:43:07 <chad> Round  1: Count of first place rankings.
21:43:08 <chad> Round  2: Tie when choosing candidate to eliminate.
21:43:10 <chad>           Tie at round 1 between 0, 2.
21:43:12 <chad>           Tie broken randomly.
21:43:14 <chad>           Eliminating candidate 0.
21:43:17 <chad>           Candidate 3 is elected.
21:43:18 <chad> Winner is option 3 - Remove wsaw:anonymous and use policy (Katy's proposal)
21:44:20 <dorchard> zakim, mute me
21:44:20 <Zakim> DOrchard should now be muted
21:46:58 <dorchard> zakim, unmute me
21:46:58 <Zakim> DOrchard should no longer be muted
21:47:03 <Jonathan> Option 3: 6
21:47:05 <Jonathan> Option 2: 2
21:47:10 <Jonathan> Option 0: 1
21:47:27 <anish> q?
21:47:29 <anish> q+
21:47:49 <bob> BT:3
21:47:55 <bob> MS3
21:48:01 <bob> IBM: 3
21:48:07 <plh> s/MS3/MS: 3/
21:48:11 <bob> CA: 3
21:48:32 <bob> BEA: 2
21:48:44 <bob> NORTEL: 3
21:48:48 <dhull> q+
21:49:12 <pauld> feels people who voted for 3 also voted for 0
21:49:35 <marc> SUN: 0
21:49:49 <bob> TIBCO:3
21:49:51 <anish> q+
21:49:59 <bob> ack ani
21:50:05 <dhull> q+ to understand the objection to 3
21:50:13 <bob> Oracle: 2
21:50:20 <Zakim> +JeffM
21:50:28 <Jonathan> Anish: Option 0 doesn't solve the RM issue, but throws out the baby with the bathwater.
21:50:57 <Jonathan> ... Taking away wsaw:Anonymous after all the work we did loses the really important use case I discussed earlier.
21:51:01 <plh> s/throws/doesn't throw/
21:51:07 <marc> i think Anish said that option 3 throws out the baby with the bathwater
21:51:14 <dorchard> ah
21:51:32 <Jonathan> ... Saying a service needs to provide a callback channel.
21:51:37 <bob> q?
21:52:14 <Jonathan> Paco: Don't like 0, because we now have to choose between WS-A and RM.
21:52:27 <Jonathan> Anish: Provides feedback to the WS-RM WG that they need to rethink.
21:53:11 <anish> yes, i meant option 3 throws the baby out with the bathwater, not option 0
21:53:17 <Jonathan> Bob: Option 3 is a significant change, in the expectation of what information is carried in the WSDL.  Option 0 continues to keep pressure on RM to figure out an alternative way to get the job done.
21:53:20 <anish> thx marc, that's what i meant
21:53:57 <Jonathan> Bob: Objections with the clear winner (3).  We'll see if option 0 is something people can live with.
21:54:27 <Jonathan> Marc: I'd like to point out that we already say we can use Anonoymous in policy.
21:54:37 <Jonathan> Jonathan: wsaw:UsingAddressing can be used in policy.
21:54:43 <Jonathan> Paco: Bad way to do anonymous.
21:55:05 <Jonathan> DaveO: If we're saying wsaw:Anonymous doesn't compose with policy, we should go down that path.
21:55:33 <Jonathan> Bob: Formal objections against Option 3?
21:55:37 <Jonathan> DaveO: Yes
21:55:39 <Jonathan> Anish: Yes
21:56:04 <Jonathan> DaveH: But you might be OK if it were replaced with a policy marker instead.
21:56:04 <anish> yes, jonathan, thx
21:56:15 <Jonathan> DaveO: Yes, but fixing it and removing it are different.
21:57:16 <Jonathan> Jonathan: Can live with Option 0 if we open a new issue about redesigning wsaw:Anonymous as policy assertions.
21:57:23 <dhull> q+ to make a quick plug for WSN
21:57:41 <Jonathan> Paco: Still has some problems with dealing with non-WS-A "special" URIs.
21:57:57 <Jonathan> ... Just recasting it as policy doesn't fully solve the problem.
21:58:02 <Jonathan> Anish: Might be easier as a policy.
21:58:15 <Jonathan> DaveO: Paco, you were pushing for 3 in preference for 2?
21:58:33 <anish> jonathan had sometime back suggested that instead of one wsaw:Anonymous marker we should have 3 different markers
21:58:41 <anish> which help from a policy POV
21:58:50 <Jonathan> Paco: 2 will probably tell us we can solve RM's problem.  We can live waiting until we solve this problem better, but first cast as a policy assertion, then with the "special" URI problem.
21:59:13 <Jonathan> DaveO: We want something like this.  Can you live with something like what RM has, cast it as a policy, and go from there?
22:00:51 <Jonathan> Jonathan: Worried about trying to fix the "RM problem" as we cast into policy assertions. Still not sure we can't satisfy RM by tweaks there.
22:01:23 <Jonathan> DaveO: Don't want to preclude tweaking to accomodate RM.
22:01:31 <Jonathan> Paco: Not just an RM problem.
22:02:36 <Jonathan> Jonathan: Postponing the debate on whether we change or RM does.
22:03:06 <Jonathan> Bob: Put 33 on a backburner while we explore recasting as a policy assertion.
22:03:25 <Zakim> -TonyR
22:03:29 <Jonathan> Jonathan: What do we tell RM?
22:04:25 <Jonathan> Bob: Any objections to leave 33 open while we entertain a new proposal working the policy assertion.
22:04:27 <Jonathan> none
22:04:47 <dorchard> zakim, mute me
22:04:47 <Zakim> DOrchard should now be muted
22:04:54 <Jonathan> Bob: Any takers to craft the proposal?
22:05:01 <Jonathan> Anish & Paco volunteer.
22:05:50 <Jonathan> DaveH: WS-Notification is being voted on as an OASIS standard.  Needs 15% of membership to vote.  If there is anyone who also is an OASIS member, please vote.
22:06:04 <Jonathan> Bob: Thanks for the forebearance.
22:06:07 <pauld> pauld has left #ws-addr
22:06:12 <Zakim> -DOrchard
22:06:13 <Jonathan> ... Came further today.
22:06:18 <Zakim> -[IBM]
22:06:19 <Jonathan> ajourn
22:06:19 <Zakim> -anish
22:06:20 <Zakim> -JeffM
22:06:20 <Zakim> -Paul_Downey
22:06:23 <Zakim> -Gilbert_Pilz
22:06:24 <Zakim> -David_Illsley
22:06:24 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Marsh
22:06:25 <Zakim> -Bob_Freund
22:06:25 <Zakim> -Paul_Knight
22:06:27 <Zakim> -David_Hull
22:06:32 <Jonathan> RRSAgent, set log member
22:06:33 <TonyR> s/ajourn/adjourn/
22:06:39 <Jonathan> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:06:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-ws-addr-minutes.html Jonathan
22:06:43 <bob> zakim, make logs public
22:06:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs public', bob
22:06:50 <Zakim> -Plh
22:06:52 <bob> rrsagent, make logs public
22:06:54 <Jonathan> s/Joanthan/Jonathan/g
22:07:01 <plh> zakim, make logs public-visible
22:07:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs public-visible', plh
22:07:07 <plh> rrsagent, make logs public-visible
22:07:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-ws-addr-minutes.html plh
22:07:24 <bob> zakim, give me patience
22:07:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'give me patience', bob
22:07:27 <plh> zakim, drop marc
22:07:27 <Zakim> Marc_Hadley is being disconnected
22:07:29 <Zakim> WS_AddrWG()4:00PM has ended
22:07:30 <Zakim> Attendees were Bob_Freund, Plh, Jonathan_Marsh, Paul_Downey, David_Illsley, +1.503.228.aaaa, prasad, Paul_Knight, anish, Gilbert_Pilz, Marc_Hadley, TonyR, yinleng, DOrchard,
22:07:32 <plh> zakim, bye
22:07:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ws-addr
22:07:33 <Zakim> ... David_Hull, Paco, GlenD, JeffM
22:07:43 <bob> rrsagent, generate minutes
22:07:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-ws-addr-minutes.html bob
22:07:48 <TonyR> TonyR has left #ws-addr
22:08:05 <bob> rrsagent, make logs public
22:08:15 <bob> rrsagent, generate minutes
22:08:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/25-ws-addr-minutes.html bob
22:08:33 <Jonathan> thx bob, you can take it from here..
22:08:47 <bob> Jonathan, thanks for scribing
22:11:53 <bob> bob has left #ws-addr