IRC log of grddl-wg on 2006-09-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:06:19 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #grddl-wg
15:06:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:06:44 [danja]
rats, skype playing up again - for now only here in irc
15:07:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #grddl-wg
15:07:37 [harryh]
Zakim, who is on the phone
15:07:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', harryh
15:08:49 [harryh]
Zakim, who's here
15:08:49 [Zakim]
harryh, you need to end that query with '?'
15:08:55 [harryh]
Zakim, who's here?
15:08:55 [Zakim]
sorry, harryh, I don't know what conference this is
15:08:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, iand, harryh, chimezie, ryager, danja, FabienGandon, DanC
15:09:06 [harryh]
Zakim, this is grddl-wg
15:09:06 [Zakim]
sorry, harryh, I do not see a conference named 'grddl-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:09:15 [harryh]
Zakim, this is grddl.
15:09:15 [Zakim]
ok, harryh; that matches SW_GRDDL()11:00AM
15:09:23 [benadida]
benadida has joined #grddl-wg
15:09:25 [DanC]
oops; am I late?
15:09:30 [chimezie]
Zakim, who's here
15:09:30 [Zakim]
chimezie, you need to end that query with '?'
15:09:32 [chimezie]
Zakim, who's here?
15:09:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P12, Rachel_Yager, FabienGandon, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Ben_Adida, iand
15:09:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see benadida, Zakim, RRSAgent, iand, harryh, chimezie, ryager, danja, FabienGandon, DanC
15:09:44 [Zakim]
15:09:52 [harryh]
invite rssagent here
15:10:06 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
15:10:06 [RRSAgent]
15:10:20 [DanC]
Zakim, read agenda from
15:10:20 [Zakim]
working on it, DanC
15:10:22 [Zakim]
agenda+ Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-09-20T13:00-0400
15:10:23 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
15:10:24 [Zakim]
agenda+ publication schedule
15:10:26 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
15:10:27 [Zakim]
agenda+ Discussion of Primer Document
15:10:28 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
15:10:30 [Zakim]
agenda+ Review of Use Cases document, reviewing actions from last meeting
15:10:33 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
15:10:35 [Zakim]
agenda+ GRDDL Spec: [#issue-base-param]
15:10:36 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
15:10:37 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-output-formats] which output formats should GRDDL support?
15:10:38 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
15:10:39 [Zakim]
agenda+ [#issue-mt-ns]
15:10:40 [Zakim]
agendum 7 added
15:10:42 [Zakim]
done reading agenda, DanC
15:10:53 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
15:10:53 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-09-20T13:00-0400" taken up
15:11:39 [DanC]
Scribe: DanC
15:11:51 [DanC]
Fabien is excused after xx:20
15:12:12 [DanC]
-> minutes 13 Sep
15:12:21 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to approve minutes 13 Sep
15:13:15 [DanC]
HH: I may need to leave before end of call
15:13:27 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to meet again 27 Sep, per regular schedule
15:13:30 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
15:13:30 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
15:13:32 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
15:13:32 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose FabienGandon
15:13:47 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to meet again 27 Sep, per regular schedule, FabienGandon to scribe.
15:13:49 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:13:49 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "publication schedule" taken up
15:15:02 [DanC]
HH: w3c communications team and semweb CG is inclined to do all 3 drafts at once, 24 Oct...
15:17:11 [DanC]
DC: I'm inclined to publish the use cases doc this month, to keep to the 3 month rule
15:17:52 [DanC]
CHI: yeah, let's not sit on docs that are ready to go
15:18:42 [DanC]
HH: ok, I'll run that by the CG: 24 Oct press release date, and publish docs as they're ready
15:18:57 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:18:57 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Discussion of Primer Document" taken up
15:19:11 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item use cases
15:19:11 [Zakim]
'use cases' does not match any agenda item, DanC
15:19:13 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item use case
15:19:13 [Zakim]
'use case' does not match any agenda item, DanC
15:19:17 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 4
15:19:17 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Review of Use Cases document, reviewing actions from last meeting" taken up
15:19:41 [DanC]
HH: ready to go?
15:19:55 [DanC]
FG: modulo the 2 concerns from last week...
15:20:32 [DanC]
... but I'm OK to publish with those unresolved.
15:21:20 [harryh]
Danny can you give the use-case document a final read? And then give us a response on whether it publishable or not?
15:21:32 [DanC]
or have you already read it closely?
15:21:32 [danja]
will do - tonight
15:22:27 [danja]
(straight after telecon)
15:22:34 [DanC]
FG: on XML Schema, I replied to Dan; I just need one high-level paragraph
15:22:44 [DanC]
CHI: I sent a suggestion.
15:24:04 [DanC]
HH: ok, so it looks like we'll be ready to decide next week
15:24:39 [DanC]
ACTION: Murray to send out his take on take on standardized vocabulary [CONTINUES]
15:25:23 [DanC]
ACTION: DanC: with BenA advise FG on CHI's XML Schema paragraph suggestion
15:26:22 [DanC]
chime's suggestion
15:26:40 [Zakim]
15:27:11 [DanC]
ACTION: BenA to flesh out HTML RDF/A output of GRDDL use cases [CONTINUES]
15:27:15 [DanC]
pending outputformats
15:27:24 [DanC]
15:27:30 [DanC]
ACTION: BenA to flesh out HTML RDF/A output of GRDDL use cases [DONE]
15:27:39 [DanC]
ACTION: Ryager to read draft thoroughly [CONTINUES]
15:27:50 [DanC]
ACTION: BenA to draft XML Schema use-case in context of Creative Commons and OAI. [DONE]
15:28:05 [DanC]
Zakim, close this item
15:28:05 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
15:28:06 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:28:07 [Zakim]
3. Discussion of Primer Document
15:28:11 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:28:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Discussion of Primer Document" taken up
15:28:39 [DanC]
ID: I added SPARQL to the primer
15:28:55 [DanC]
(I hope to move the primer to this week somehow.)
15:29:11 [DanC]
ID: I noted DanC's dtend fencepost bug [and fixed it?]
15:29:18 [DanC]
ACTION: iand to remove references to RDFa from primer [DONE]
15:29:29 [DanC]
ACTION: iand, Fabien to change wording of POX to 'single-purpose XML vocabulary' or something similar [DONE]
15:30:07 [DanC]
BenA: what exactly was removed?
15:30:12 [DanC]
ID: a surpious ref
15:30:47 [DanC]
ACTION: BenA will proof-read primer document [CONTINUES]
15:31:10 [DanC]
ACTION: chime will review primer document, advise on publishing as WD [CONTINUES]
15:31:39 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: get IanD cvs write access for primer work in GRDDL WG
15:32:14 [DanC]
DC: Danny was going to test the primer files... news/
15:32:16 [DanC]
15:32:43 [DanC]
ACTION DannyA: test the primer files [CONTINUES]
15:33:09 [danja]
not done yet, got a bit too involved in the testing code...
15:33:38 [DanC]
-> Talking with U.T. Austin students about the Microformats, Drug Discovery, the Tabulator, and the Semantic Web
15:33:47 [DanC]
DC: hmm... I presented GRDDL last week... sorta...
15:34:11 [DanC]
CHI: the parts of the primer I worked with were OK when I looked
15:34:14 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:34:14 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "GRDDL Spec:" taken up [from #issue-base-param]
15:34:30 [DanC]
ACTION:DanC to enumerate options for base issue, pick one, and propose it in the form of a test case. See his suggestion to pass it as a parameter and discussion with Chime over extension functions. [CONTINUES]
15:34:56 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:34:56 [Zakim]
agendum 5 was just opened, DanC
15:35:01 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 5
15:35:01 [Zakim]
agendum 5, GRDDL Spec:, closed
15:35:02 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:35:03 [Zakim]
6. [#issue-output-formats] which output formats should GRDDL support?
15:35:03 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:35:03 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "[#issue-output-formats] which output formats should GRDDL support?" taken up
15:35:24 [Zakim]
15:35:35 [DanC]
-> Four options for discussion
15:35:55 [DanC]
HH: we've heard from DanC and Ben; I sent some options...
15:38:28 [danja]
I'd go for a variant of 2), SHOULD for RDF/XML, MAY for others (not necessarily W3C-recommended)
15:39:16 [DanC]
DC: I don't have much rationale for requiring RDF/XML other than I have experience and I know how it works.
15:40:05 [DanC]
MM: GRDDL is easy to understand as "N in, 1 out"...
15:40:16 [DanC]
... I can see it setting a precedent for similar things.
15:40:51 [DanC]
[CHI and DC discussed abstract syntax expressed as API calls rather than any concrete syntax too...]
15:41:29 [DanC]
MM: looking at the use cases and primer, they remind me of "application notes" about technologies many years ago...
15:42:46 [benadida]
q+ to comment on "other implementations"
15:43:02 [chimezie]
q+ "not really 1 out"
15:43:09 [chimezie]
q+ to "not really 1 out"
15:43:26 [DanC]
MM: I'm concerned that the use cases show doing too much GRDDL.
15:43:36 [DanC]
s/too much GRDDL/too much with GRDDL/
15:43:56 [harryh]
Zakim, ack benadida
15:43:56 [Zakim]
benadida, you wanted to comment on "other implementations"
15:43:57 [Zakim]
I see chimezie on the speaker queue
15:44:34 [iand]
q+ "too much variability hurts interop"
15:44:43 [iand]
q+ to "too much variability hurts interop"
15:45:09 [DanC]
BenA: if transformations can only output RDF/XML, they can't express the presentation XHTML stuff while they're at it.
15:45:17 [harryh]
Zakim, ack chimezie
15:45:17 [Zakim]
chimezie, you wanted to "not really 1 out"
15:45:19 [Zakim]
I see iand on the speaker queue
15:45:58 [DanC]
q+ to note that the scope of GRDDL is getting data (think: spreadsheet, database) out of documents.
15:46:32 [DanC]
CHI: I prefer thinking of the output as RDF abstract syntax
15:47:01 [DanC]
MM: did I hear that RDF/XML is less expressive than other syntaxes?
15:47:15 [DanC]
CHI: yes
15:47:28 [DanC]
MM: and is there a "maximally expressive" syntax?
15:47:42 [harryh]
Zakim, ack iand
15:47:42 [Zakim]
iand, you wanted to "too much variability hurts interop"
15:47:43 [Zakim]
I see DanC on the speaker queue
15:47:44 [DanC]
CHI: well, sort of; SPARQL picked a middle ground rather than, e.g. N3
15:47:46 [danja]
without at least one normative concrete syntax, where's the interop?
15:48:11 [harryh]
Zakim, ack DanC
15:48:11 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to note that the scope of GRDDL is getting data (think: spreadsheet, database) out of documents.
15:48:13 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
15:50:50 [DanC]
DC: I lean the same way Ian does; the benefit of allowing other than RDF/XML isn't worth it.
15:51:04 [chimezie]
seems like there is a 3 level stratification of GRDDL output 1) a specific RDF concrete syntax 2) any concretized abstract syntax (wouldn't include API calls) 3) any concretized abstract syntax in addition to API calls
15:51:16 [DanC]
I see no merit in (2)
15:52:01 [chimezie]
I can't even imagine an API call scenario/usecase in the framework we have so far for GRDDL
15:52:11 [iand]
problem is that there's no way to predict what syntax is going to be output by any given transformation
15:52:18 [benadida]
I think I overstated the need for an API approach in the GRDDL *spec*
15:53:19 [DanC]
HH polls for RDF/XML only vs RDF/XML preferred
15:54:28 [DanC]
HH: sounds about even
15:56:09 [iand]
abstract syntax -
15:56:31 [DanC]
DanC: the even poll makes re-inforces my preference to keep this open until we can get Brian McBride's input.
15:57:12 [Zakim]
15:57:20 [benadida]
benadida has left #grddl-wg
15:58:09 [iand]
this is relevant -
15:58:33 [DanC]
MM: is there a spec for going from RDF abstract syntax to RDF/XML?
15:58:47 [DanC]
DC: [confuses the issue with his ansewr; iand's pointer is the right answer]
15:59:35 [chimezie]
The XML realm is syntactic (uniformity is important), the RDF realm is semantic/abstract (syntactic uniformity is irrelevant)
15:59:52 [DanC]
DC clarifies that RDFa is not the RDF abstract syntax, but rather another concrete syntax
16:00:10 [DanC]
HH: so if we mandated RDF/XML only, and other syntaxes mature, we'd have to rev GRDDL, right?
16:00:33 [DanC]
MM: or make a new thing, maybe "GARDEN". but there's real value in knowing the target of GRDDL.
16:03:07 [chimezie]
Somewhat related: The rdf scutters I write (when met with a URL w/out an appropriate mime-type) attempt an RDF/XML parse first, TriX second, N3 third in that order
16:04:24 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
16:04:24 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
16:04:26 [Zakim]
6. [#issue-output-formats] which output formats should GRDDL support?
16:04:27 [Zakim]
7. [#issue-mt-ns]
16:04:40 [Zakim]
16:05:15 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a chair
16:05:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'pick a chair', DanC
16:05:19 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a victim
16:05:19 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
16:05:25 [DanC]
16:09:47 [DanC]
(lots of discussion, not carefully scribed.)
16:13:33 [chimezie]
If there is truely a very minimal set of abstract RDF that can't be expressed in RDF/XML im inclined to rethink my stance on abstract syntax
16:13:56 [iand] gives you the exceptions
16:14:22 [DanC]
DC: one concrete use case where a transformation designer prefers other than RDF/XML is Atom/Owl. Henry story has written XQuery that produces turtle. I have tried to get him to produce RDF/XML, but I haven't managed.
16:22:53 [DanC]
MM: one possibility is that GRDDL specifies RDF/XML only, but a WG note specifies the less constrained version, that targets RDF abstract syntax
16:25:10 [DanC]
16:25:11 [Zakim]
16:25:13 [Zakim]
16:25:14 [Zakim]
16:25:15 [Zakim]
16:25:20 [Zakim]
16:25:21 [Zakim]
SW_GRDDL()11:00AM has ended
16:25:22 [Zakim]
Attendees were Rachel_Yager, FabienGandon, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Ben_Adida, iand, DanC, harryh, Murray_Maloney
16:39:11 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:39:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
17:03:14 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
17:04:04 [DanC]
Meeting: GRDDL Weekly
17:04:15 [DanC]
Chair: harryh
17:04:19 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:04:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
17:05:01 [DanC]
Topic: post-meeting review of actions
17:05:14 [DanC]
ACTION:Harry to draft some elaboration on how media types work with GRDDL ("adding a sentence" as in this message). [CONTINUES]
17:05:27 [DanC]
harryh has made progress, but we haven't discussed the outcome
17:05:35 [DanC]
ACTION: Murray to suggest what GRDDL spec issues are covered by XML Processing, suggestion on how to fix it. [CONTINUES]
17:05:39 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:05:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
17:06:03 [DanC]
Regrets: danja
18:27:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #grddl-wg
21:23:34 [danja]
danja has joined #grddl-wg
21:48:33 [DanC]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:48:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC