IRC log of dawg on 2006-09-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:23:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:23:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:23:48 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ convene, startup(), etc
14:23:48 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
14:23:55 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ action items
14:23:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
14:24:04 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ nonLiteral Value Testing
14:24:04 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
14:24:13 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ contradictoryKB
14:24:13 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
14:24:19 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ formsOfDistinct
14:24:19 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
14:24:30 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ unbound variables in FILTER
14:24:30 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
14:24:37 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ open world and other value tests
14:24:37 [Zakim]
agendum 7 added
14:27:40 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:27:42 [Zakim]
14:28:46 [Zakim]
14:28:47 [Zakim]
14:28:48 [Zakim]
14:28:49 [patH]
patH has joined #dawg
14:28:50 [Zakim]
14:28:59 [Zakim]
14:29:02 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P20 is me
14:29:02 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:29:16 [Zakim]
14:29:42 [ericP]
Zakim, ??P18 is me
14:29:42 [Zakim]
+ericP; got it
14:30:02 [Zakim]
14:30:06 [bijan]
zakim, ipcaller is me
14:30:06 [Zakim]
+bijan; got it
14:30:10 [kendallclark]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:30:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, AndyS, ericP, bijan
14:30:10 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:30:11 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
14:30:38 [Zakim]
14:30:46 [Zakim]
14:30:47 [kendallclark]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:30:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, AndyS, ericP, bijan (muted), ??P21, PatH
14:31:01 [SimonR]
Zakim, ??P21 is me
14:31:01 [Zakim]
+SimonR; got it
14:31:28 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #dawg
14:32:13 [SimonR]
Regrets: FredZ
14:32:32 [kendallclark]
Chair: KendallC
14:32:53 [kendallclark]
14:33:12 [kendallclark]
ah, right, thx LeeF
14:33:35 [bijan]
pointer to that email, eric?
14:34:08 [SimonR]
ericP: Comments on the agenda: Would like to see some additional issues; will mail to list.
14:34:33 [kendallclark]
14:35:15 [kendallclark]
Plus: Add PatH to regrets list
14:35:28 [Zakim]
14:35:41 [EliasT]
Zakim, Elias_Torres is me
14:35:41 [Zakim]
+EliasT; got it
14:35:46 [SimonR]
PROPOSED: to approve minutes from Sep 5 teleconference, with addition of PatH to regrets
14:36:02 [SimonR]
RESOLVED and seconded by SimonR
14:36:04 [EliasT]
Zakim, mute me please
14:36:04 [Zakim]
EliasT should now be muted
14:36:19 [kendallclark]
zakim, please pick a scribe
14:36:19 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EliasT (muted)
14:36:23 [EliasT]
14:36:27 [ericP]
ACTION: ericP to send mail describing how and (posted in illustrate basic graph matching conflicts between LC1 and LC2 semantics
14:36:33 [SimonR]
RESOLVED to meet again on Sep 20, with EliasT as scribe
14:36:48 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up agendum 2
14:36:48 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "action items" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:37:05 [bijan]
Simon, mute yourself. The typing is LOUD
14:37:35 [bijan]
zakim,unmute me
14:37:35 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
14:38:27 [SimonR]
bijan: ACTION to review FredZ's constructive semantics -- bijan has reviewed it but not written up.
14:38:35 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:38:35 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
14:38:51 [SimonR]
kendall: Requests review of constructive semantics sent via the list.
14:38:58 [bijan]
zakim,unmute me
14:38:58 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
14:39:14 [SimonR]
PatH, also to continue semantics review.
14:39:49 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:39:49 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
14:40:11 [SimonR]
kendall: Review also continues.
14:40:35 [Zakim]
14:40:44 [SimonR]
SimonR: Has read FredZ's, hasn't written up yet, continues.
14:40:46 [SteveH]
Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH
14:40:46 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
14:41:19 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum
14:41:19 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "convene, startup(), etc" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:41:32 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up agendum 3
14:41:32 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "nonLiteral Value Testing" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:42:16 [AndyS]
14:42:26 [SimonR]
Kendall: This issue was opened Aug 30, Bijan's been carrying the ball on this. Andy has taken a position on (as per above URL)
14:43:00 [AndyS]
Not per that URL - that's the proposal from the agenda ... one moment ...
14:43:22 [SimonR]
Kendall: Is there any one else who would be willing to participate in this issue?
14:43:39 [AndyS] was my somewhat rushed summary to help the telecon
14:44:11 [bijan]
14:44:13 [EliasT]
Zakim, unmute mee
14:44:13 [Zakim]
sorry, EliasT, I do not see a party named 'mee'
14:44:15 [EliasT]
Zakim, unmute me
14:44:15 [Zakim]
EliasT should no longer be muted
14:44:27 [SimonR]
ericP: (1) Integrity of a literal in a graph, (2) integrity of literal constructed with ^^, (3) Integrity of literal constructed using....(sorry, couldn't follow last bit)
14:44:30 [bijan]
(sorry, exogenous happiness making event)
14:45:05 [bijan]
I couldn't follow the hat hat, etc.
14:45:28 [patH]
bijan, glad life is so good for you.
14:45:30 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
14:45:30 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
14:46:19 [SimonR]
bijan: Is it about ill-formed literals, or non-literal value testing?
14:46:19 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:46:19 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
14:46:30 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
14:46:30 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
14:46:34 [EliasT]
There are only 2 on Kendall's email.
14:47:35 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
14:47:36 [Zakim]
bijan was not muted, bijan
14:49:00 [AndyS]
rq24 says "Returns the datatype IRI of ltrl." What is the proposed text change?
14:49:57 [SimonR]
ericP: datatype of a node for SPARQL's purposes doesn't take entailment into account, should just be the what's syntactically after the ^^.
14:50:14 [bijan]
Yeah, that's clear
14:52:43 [ericP]
DATATYPE("-5"^^xsd:positiveInteger) = xsd:positiveInteger
14:52:56 [bijan]
"abc"^xsd:integer< 1
14:53:14 [bijan]
"abc"^xsd:integer = "abc"^xsd:integer
14:54:36 [SimonR]
Bijan: Difficulty is in conflating the datatype, the datatype URI, etc.
14:56:00 [kendallclark]
ACTION BijanP: to propose some editorial clarification text around DATATYPE
14:57:12 [SimonR]
PatH: Should renamed DATATYPE to DATATYPE_URI
14:57:27 [SteveH]
14:57:54 [ericP]
14:57:58 [EliasT]
14:58:10 [AndyS]
datatypeIRI would be consistent.
14:58:11 [ericP]
14:58:49 [AndyS]
but it does say "rdfs:Datatype datatype (typed literal ltrl)" so there is the signature as well.
14:59:08 [bijan]
datatypeURI("-5"^^xsd:integer) = datatype("5"^^xsd:integer) ?
14:59:12 [patH]
15:00:03 [SimonR]
ericP: Inclined to be conservative and retain existing name; AndyS defers to eric.
15:00:32 [ericP]
15:00:37 [bijan]
I'll proposed extra clarificatory text
15:01:50 [AndyS]
datatype("") => xsd:string in the tests
15:02:13 [bijan]
rdfs:Datatype datatype (typed literal ltrl)
15:02:18 [AndyS]
datatype(""@en) => error
15:02:53 [bijan]
15:03:06 [bijan]
rdfs:Datatype datatype (typed literal ltrl)
15:03:07 [bijan]
Returns the datatype IRI of ltrl.
15:03:20 [ericP]
15:03:56 [ericP]
15:03:57 [ericP]
Typed literals have a lexical form and a datatype URI being an RDF URI reference.
15:03:58 [ericP]
15:04:35 [AndyS]
entailment rules: xsd 1a and xsd 1b
15:04:48 [EliasT]
datatype(<uri>) => xsd:anyURI?
15:05:13 [AndyS]
(at end of
15:05:32 [SimonR]
ericP: Without XSD-entailment, datatype("") is undefined, gives error.
15:06:12 [SimonR]
AndyS: In one of our tests, datatype("") instead gives xsd:string.
15:06:27 [kendallclark]
+1 to making this explicit
15:07:41 [EliasT]
so URIs and bNodes are error as well
15:07:43 [EliasT]
15:07:48 [AndyS]
Maybe ExprBuiltins/q-datatype-3.rq at least.
15:07:49 [kendallclark]
i think so, yes, elias
15:09:16 [AndyS]
I'm sure it's elsewhere as well: it's in the agenda later as well with a thread ptr
15:09:41 [SimonR]
General consensus: datatype() should have a range of IRI rather than rdfs:Datatype
15:10:12 [AndyS]
15:10:18 [bijan]
15:10:24 [EliasT]
datatype("") => xsd:string, datatype("abc"^^xsd:integer ) => xsd:integer, datatype(_:b0) => error, datatype(<anyURI>) => error, datatype("1"^^xsd:positiveInteger) => xsd:positiveInteger, datatype("foo"^^bar:type) => bar:type
15:10:44 [EliasT]
... I just wanted that for that record... in case we need a whole test suite on the decision.
15:11:04 [kendallclark]
+1 Elias -- I'm willing to take yr comment as volunteering :>
15:11:11 [ericP]
action: ericP effect: DATATYE (RDF term) => IRI | "" => xsd:string, ""@foo => error, ""^^X => X, blank node => error, IRI => error
15:11:34 [EliasT]
15:11:47 [kendallclark]
ack bijan
15:12:52 [SimonR]
bijan: How should datatype values behave, when denoted using some other syntax other than a datatyped literal? (E.g., what if you give pi an IRI?)
15:13:38 [ericP]
zakim, flip a coin
15:13:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'flip a coin', ericP
15:13:58 [kendallclark]
zakim, you are useless
15:13:58 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'you are useless', kendallclark
15:14:12 [ericP]
q+ to object to "we are supporting D-entailment"
15:16:38 [kendallclark]
ack EliasT
15:16:49 [EliasT]
i think it's important that there be some way to differentiate plain literals from literals typed as xsd:string in SPARQL
15:17:42 [bijan]
15:17:48 [bijan]
15:17:51 [bijan]
15:17:52 [bijan]
15:18:09 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
15:18:09 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
15:18:17 [bijan]
isPlainLiteral would be enough, actually
15:18:23 [bijan]
15:18:24 [bijan]
15:19:01 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
15:19:01 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
15:19:04 [kendallclark]
ACTION EliasT: follow up w/ Andy on "the idiom" for plain literals/string literals
15:19:30 [AndyS]
sameTerm("", ""^^xsd:string)
15:19:44 [SimonR]
Do we get a problem if we're doing a multi-graph query, and the different graphs have different types describing the same node? What if one graph describes "IV"^x:roman, and the other "4"^^xsd:int?
15:19:53 [AndyS]
So "sameTerm(?x, str(?x))"
15:20:00 [ericP]
15:20:13 [LeeF]
I'm happy with that, AndyS.
15:20:41 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
15:20:41 [Zakim]
bijan was not muted, bijan
15:21:26 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
15:21:26 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
15:21:35 [bijan]
It is obscure
15:21:43 [bijan]
Cool, but a tad obscure
15:21:52 [kendallclark]
ack ericp
15:21:52 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to object to "we are supporting D-entailment"
15:22:24 [bijan]
15:22:31 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
15:22:31 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
15:22:45 [bijan]
RDF defines D-Entailment where extra semantic conditions are allowed for datatypes. When matching RDF literals in graph patterns, the datatype lexical-to-value mapping may be reflected into the underlying RDF graph, leading to additional matches where it is known that two literals are the same value. RDF semantics does not require this of all RDF graphs.
15:23:39 [SimonR]
ericP: Doesn't see where we're using D-entailment. Questions some of Bijan's reliance upon this assumption, which from a more conservative point of view may not hold.
15:24:10 [SteveH]
my reading is hte same as eric's
15:25:12 [SimonR]
Bijan: Worried if we use D-entailment in some places, but not all.
15:25:18 [kendallclark]
we can split up readings on both sides and that even *more* proves the point that the text isn't sufficiently clear.
15:25:48 [kendallclark]
hmm,i don't know how :)
15:25:58 [EliasT]
15:25:59 [AndyS]
I'd like to strike the D-entailment text (section 4.8) because of this (as noted in email I think). We are open to other entailments than the core "simple" like D*.
15:26:09 [LeeF]
15:26:38 [kendallclark]
in this as in most other things
15:26:46 [bijan]
15:26:50 [EliasT]
not for parenting... for sure.
15:27:05 [SimonR]
Say, do with distinguish rdf:xmlLiteral-entailment from XSD-entailment...?
15:27:44 [AndyS]
rdf:xmlLiteral is special - it is the RDF datatype (it says "the" in RDF concepts) :-)
15:28:05 [patH]
so, simonR, yes.
15:28:23 [SimonR]
ericP: D-entailment and the XPath functions in literal matching are similar, but only because they're both informed by XPath.
15:28:31 [AndyS]
It is defined (value space etc - that's where I got the canonicalization stuff from) in concepts not covered by XSD-enatilment.
15:29:26 [SimonR]
So, does simple entailment encompass xmlLiteral, or is it in addition to it?
15:30:15 [AndyS]
(ARQ can match {:x :p 1 } on :x :p "1"^^xsd:byte but does not use that level for testing DAWG tests.)
15:30:21 [kendallclark]
a point that has been made repeatedly, I belive
15:30:40 [SimonR]
bijan: It's not clear that it's always possible to do D-entailment by extending the graph; this is a dangerous direction.
15:30:48 [bijan]
That's Pat
15:30:49 [bijan]
Not me
15:30:54 [SimonR]
Oops. Sorry!
15:31:58 [kendallclark]
that 'querying over the closure' is often impossible
15:32:05 [bijan]
:x rdf:type xsd;positiveInteger.
15:32:05 [bijan]
:y rdf:type xsd:negativeInteger.
15:32:14 [kendallclark]
it makes the charter stuff about 'virtual graphs', well, *bad* IMO
15:33:20 [SimonR]
Hmm. They seem to be meaningful; they just necessarily never have an extension....
15:33:56 [kendallclark]
(hmm, s/often impossible/may be impossible in some cases/)
15:34:20 [AndyS]
Ack to the modification.
15:35:58 [SimonR]
PatH: It is justifiable to do selective D-entailment.
15:37:15 [SimonR]
Bijan: It is orthogonal, D-entailment and non-literal value testing.
15:37:15 [bijan]
1) Restrict value testing to data values with literal form
15:37:15 [bijan]
(I think this is the implicit understanding)
15:37:15 [bijan]
2) Allow value testing to test non literal data values
15:37:15 [bijan]
(Implementation wise, this would require preserving the type of URIs
15:37:15 [bijan]
and BNodes in internal tables, at least; there's no syntax to pass
15:37:16 [bijan]
that into result sets).
15:38:21 [kendallclark]
zakim, who's on the phone
15:38:21 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', kendallclark
15:38:23 [kendallclark]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:38:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, AndyS, ericP, bijan, SimonR, PatH, EliasT, SteveH
15:38:27 [SimonR]
Kendall: Asking around the table about which position we favor.
15:38:50 [SimonR]
AndyS: Support 1, caveats on exact wording.
15:39:08 [SimonR]
EricP: Support 1, scared of 2.
15:39:16 [SimonR]
Bijan: Support 2, don't mind 1.
15:39:34 [kendallclark]
"fear" -- clearly a technical term :)
15:39:48 [bijan]
Ooo, 3rd position
15:39:56 [bijan]
3) duel operators with each sense
15:40:22 [SimonR]
SimonR: Thing neither really is viable, need to be able to support choosing one or the other. Abstain.
15:40:29 [ericP]
i think we have done that by using specific XPath semantics
15:40:37 [SimonR]
PatH: Agree with Andy, support 1.
15:40:44 [SimonR]
EliasT: Support 1.
15:41:09 [SimonR]
SteveH: Support 1.
15:41:42 [SimonR]
Bijan: Followup question: If we were to support D-entailment, would that change your answer?
15:41:50 [SimonR]
PatH: Yes, it would.
15:42:32 [ericP]
is this a proposal to add a D-entailment?
15:43:32 [SimonR]
Kendall: If choosing 1 is implicitly a choose against D-entailment, everyone should be aware of this.
15:45:13 [SimonR]
ericP: Trouble with introducing D-entailment is that it introduces contradictions.
15:45:21 [SimonR]
(That was Eric, right?)
15:45:28 [EliasT]
That was Bijan I think.
15:45:35 [bijan]
It was me
15:45:40 [SimonR]
Drat. I suck at this. :P
15:45:54 [kendallclark]
PROPOSAL: "Restrict value testing to data values with literal form" -- or words to that effect
15:46:03 [patH]
simon, you are better than me at it.
15:46:19 [AndyS]
"Restrict to literals with explicit form"
15:47:26 [ericP]
"Restrict value testing to ""^^ thingies"
15:47:29 [LeeF]
+1 to that proposal
15:47:41 [kendallclark]
ericp: see, colloquial is good :>
15:48:06 [kendallclark]
PROPOSAL: To restrict value testing to literals.
15:48:10 [SimonR]
And the syntactic forms reside in some single, specific graph at all times?
15:48:11 [ericP]
15:48:13 [ericP]
15:48:22 [bijan]
"Other data values, such as :x rdf:type xsd:integer, are not blah blah"
15:48:30 [bijan]
15:48:33 [patH]
what genus is Zakim?
15:48:54 [bijan]
"URIs or BNodes, even if they denote data values, are errors"
15:48:57 [bijan]
Maybe somethign liek that?
15:49:00 [SimonR]
RESOLVED: Seconded by Eric, no abstentions.
15:50:03 [AndyS]
15:50:04 [SimonR]
AndyS: Would like to strike reference to D-entailment in s4.8
15:50:07 [AndyS]
Section 4.8
15:52:47 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum
15:52:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "convene, startup(), etc" taken up [from kendallclark]
15:52:54 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up agendum 4
15:52:54 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "contradictoryKB" taken up [from kendallclark]
15:56:49 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
15:56:49 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
15:57:12 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
15:57:12 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
15:57:36 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
15:57:36 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
15:58:21 [SimonR]
Kendall: Inclined to open an issue on the support of D-entailment.
15:58:41 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
15:58:41 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
15:59:03 [SimonR]
PatH: Why treat D-entailment specially?
16:00:52 [SimonR]
EricP: Proposes to say in the section where datatypes are introduced, that we don't necessarily do D-entailment.
16:01:30 [Zakim]
16:03:19 [kendallclark]
heh... +1 to distinguishing Perl scripts from civilization.
16:07:23 [AndyS]
Is there a list of all the cases like ":x < :y" that have to be considered? booleans and cardinality, ... ???
16:08:33 [SimonR]
ACTION: bijan to write some text on the D-entailment issue
16:09:08 [AndyS]
It would help me if it were quite soon (for publishing) - ideal world
16:09:18 [bijan]
andys I'll try by tomorrow or thurs
16:09:22 [AndyS]
16:10:43 [Zakim]
16:10:44 [SimonR]
PROPOSED to adjourn.
16:10:45 [Zakim]
16:10:49 [Zakim]
16:10:55 [Zakim]
16:10:56 [Zakim]
16:11:03 [kendallclark]
eric: will you generate the minutes thingie for Simon?
16:11:13 [AndyS]
EricP : help SimonR with the minutes??
16:11:26 [AndyS]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:11:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AndyS
16:11:38 [AndyS]
rrsagent, make minutes world readable
16:11:38 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world readable', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:11:58 [ericP]
rrsagent, make minutes world visible
16:11:58 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world visible', ericP. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:12:04 [ericP]
rrsagent, make minutes world
16:12:04 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world', ericP. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:12:09 [ericP]
rrsagent, make log world
16:12:13 [ericP]
16:12:29 [ericP]
bye zakim
16:12:40 [ericP]
zakim, please leave
16:12:40 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were David, Kendall_Clark, AndyS, ericP, bijan, PatH, SimonR, EliasT, SteveH
16:12:40 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dawg
16:12:49 [ericP]
RRSAgent, please leave
16:12:49 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in :
16:12:49 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP to send mail describing how and (posted in illustrate basic graph matching conflicts between LC1 and LC2 semantics [1]
16:12:49 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:12:49 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: BijanP to to propose some editorial clarification text around DATATYPE [2]
16:12:49 [RRSAgent]
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16:12:49 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP effect: DATATYE (RDF term) => IRI | "" => xsd:string, ""@foo => error, ""^^X => X, blank node => error, IRI => error [3]
16:12:49 [RRSAgent]
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16:12:49 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: bijan to write some text on the D-entailment issue [5]
16:12:49 [RRSAgent]
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