14:23:34 RRSAgent has joined #dawg 14:23:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/09/12-dawg-irc 14:23:48 zakim, agenda+ convene, startup(), etc 14:23:48 agendum 1 added 14:23:55 zakim, agenda+ action items 14:23:55 agendum 2 added 14:24:04 zakim, agenda+ nonLiteral Value Testing 14:24:04 agendum 3 added 14:24:13 zakim, agenda+ contradictoryKB 14:24:13 agendum 4 added 14:24:19 zakim, agenda+ formsOfDistinct 14:24:19 agendum 5 added 14:24:30 zakim, agenda+ unbound variables in FILTER 14:24:30 agendum 6 added 14:24:37 zakim, agenda+ open world and other value tests 14:24:37 agendum 7 added 14:27:40 SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started 14:27:42 +David 14:28:46 +Kendall_Clark 14:28:47 -Kendall_Clark 14:28:48 +Kendall_Clark 14:28:49 patH has joined #dawg 14:28:50 -David 14:28:59 +??P20 14:29:02 zakim, ??P20 is me 14:29:02 +AndyS; got it 14:29:16 +??P18 14:29:42 Zakim, ??P18 is me 14:29:42 +ericP; got it 14:30:02 +[IPcaller] 14:30:06 zakim, ipcaller is me 14:30:06 +bijan; got it 14:30:10 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:30:10 On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, AndyS, ericP, bijan 14:30:10 zakim, mute me 14:30:11 bijan should now be muted 14:30:38 +??P21 14:30:46 +PatH 14:30:47 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:30:50 On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, AndyS, ericP, bijan (muted), ??P21, PatH 14:31:01 Zakim, ??P21 is me 14:31:01 +SimonR; got it 14:31:28 EliasT has joined #dawg 14:32:13 Regrets: FredZ 14:32:32 Chair: KendallC 14:32:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0211.html 14:33:12 ah, right, thx LeeF 14:33:35 pointer to that email, eric? 14:34:08 ericP: Comments on the agenda: Would like to see some additional issues; will mail to list. 14:34:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/att-0204/05-dawg-minutes.html 14:35:15 Plus: Add PatH to regrets list 14:35:28 +Elias_Torres 14:35:41 Zakim, Elias_Torres is me 14:35:41 +EliasT; got it 14:35:46 PROPOSED: to approve minutes from Sep 5 teleconference, with addition of PatH to regrets 14:36:02 RESOLVED and seconded by SimonR 14:36:04 Zakim, mute me please 14:36:04 EliasT should now be muted 14:36:19 zakim, please pick a scribe 14:36:19 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EliasT (muted) 14:36:23 sure. 14:36:27 ACTION: ericP to send mail describing how http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#rdfsemantics-var-type-var and http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#rdfsemantics-bnode-type-var (posted in http://www.w3.org/mid/20060814121827.GC6336@w3.org) illustrate basic graph matching conflicts between LC1 and LC2 semantics 14:36:33 RESOLVED to meet again on Sep 20, with EliasT as scribe 14:36:48 zakim, take up agendum 2 14:36:48 agendum 2. "action items" taken up [from kendallclark] 14:37:05 Simon, mute yourself. The typing is LOUD 14:37:35 zakim,unmute me 14:37:35 bijan should no longer be muted 14:38:27 bijan: ACTION to review FredZ's constructive semantics -- bijan has reviewed it but not written up. 14:38:35 zakim, mute me 14:38:35 bijan should now be muted 14:38:51 kendall: Requests review of constructive semantics sent via the list. 14:38:58 zakim,unmute me 14:38:58 bijan should no longer be muted 14:39:14 PatH, also to continue semantics review. 14:39:49 zakim, mute me 14:39:49 bijan should now be muted 14:40:11 kendall: Review also continues. 14:40:35 +[IPcaller] 14:40:44 SimonR: Has read FredZ's, hasn't written up yet, continues. 14:40:46 Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH 14:40:46 +SteveH; got it 14:41:19 zakim, take up next agendum 14:41:19 agendum 1. "convene, startup(), etc" taken up [from kendallclark] 14:41:32 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:41:32 agendum 3. "nonLiteral Value Testing" taken up [from kendallclark] 14:42:16 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0199.html 14:42:26 Kendall: This issue was opened Aug 30, Bijan's been carrying the ball on this. Andy has taken a position on (as per above URL) 14:43:00 Not per that URL - that's the proposal from the agenda ... one moment ... 14:43:22 Kendall: Is there any one else who would be willing to participate in this issue? 14:43:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0220.html was my somewhat rushed summary to help the telecon 14:44:11 WOOHOOOO! 14:44:13 Zakim, unmute mee 14:44:13 sorry, EliasT, I do not see a party named 'mee' 14:44:15 Zakim, unmute me 14:44:15 EliasT should no longer be muted 14:44:27 ericP: (1) Integrity of a literal in a graph, (2) integrity of literal constructed with ^^, (3) Integrity of literal constructed using....(sorry, couldn't follow last bit) 14:44:30 (sorry, exogenous happiness making event) 14:45:05 I couldn't follow the hat hat, etc. 14:45:28 bijan, glad life is so good for you. 14:45:30 zakim, unmute me 14:45:30 bijan should no longer be muted 14:46:19 bijan: Is it about ill-formed literals, or non-literal value testing? 14:46:19 zakim, mute me 14:46:19 bijan should now be muted 14:46:30 zakim, unmute me 14:46:30 bijan should no longer be muted 14:46:34 There are only 2 on Kendall's email. 14:47:35 zakim, unmute me 14:47:36 bijan was not muted, bijan 14:49:00 rq24 says "Returns the datatype IRI of ltrl." What is the proposed text change? 14:49:57 ericP: datatype of a node for SPARQL's purposes doesn't take entailment into account, should just be the what's syntactically after the ^^. 14:50:14 Yeah, that's clear 14:52:43 DATATYPE("-5"^^xsd:positiveInteger) = xsd:positiveInteger 14:52:56 "abc"^xsd:integer< 1 14:53:14 "abc"^xsd:integer = "abc"^xsd:integer 14:54:36 Bijan: Difficulty is in conflating the datatype, the datatype URI, etc. 14:56:00 ACTION BijanP: to propose some editorial clarification text around DATATYPE 14:57:12 PatH: Should renamed DATATYPE to DATATYPE_URI 14:57:27 IRI? 14:57:54 datatypeThatHasNotBeenChecked 14:57:58 +1 14:58:10 datatypeIRI would be consistent. 14:58:11 datatypeThatHasNotBeenCheckedtoMakePatHappy 14:58:49 but it does say "rdfs:Datatype datatype (typed literal ltrl)" so there is the signature as well. 14:59:08 datatypeURI("-5"^^xsd:integer) = datatype("5"^^xsd:integer) ? 14:59:12 prepatteddatatype? 15:00:03 ericP: Inclined to be conservative and retain existing name; AndyS defers to eric. 15:00:32 PlatonicDatatype? 15:00:37 I'll proposed extra clarificatory text 15:01:50 datatype("") => xsd:string in the tests 15:02:13 rdfs:Datatype datatype (typed literal ltrl) 15:02:18 datatype(""@en) => error 15:02:53 q+ 15:03:06 rdfs:Datatype datatype (typed literal ltrl) 15:03:07 Returns the datatype IRI of ltrl. 15:03:20 http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-concepts-20040210/#dfn-typed-literal 15:03:56 [[ 15:03:57 Typed literals have a lexical form and a datatype URI being an RDF URI reference. 15:03:58 ]] 15:04:35 entailment rules: xsd 1a and xsd 1b 15:04:48 datatype() => xsd:anyURI? 15:05:13 (at end of http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#DtypeRules) 15:05:32 ericP: Without XSD-entailment, datatype("") is undefined, gives error. 15:06:12 AndyS: In one of our tests, datatype("") instead gives xsd:string. 15:06:27 +1 to making this explicit 15:07:41 so URIs and bNodes are error as well 15:07:43 ? 15:07:48 Maybe ExprBuiltins/q-datatype-3.rq at least. 15:07:49 i think so, yes, elias 15:09:16 I'm sure it's elsewhere as well: it's in the agenda later as well with a thread ptr 15:09:41 General consensus: datatype() should have a range of IRI rather than rdfs:Datatype 15:10:12 +1 15:10:18 +1 15:10:24 datatype("") => xsd:string, datatype("abc"^^xsd:integer ) => xsd:integer, datatype(_:b0) => error, datatype() => error, datatype("1"^^xsd:positiveInteger) => xsd:positiveInteger, datatype("foo"^^bar:type) => bar:type 15:10:44 ... I just wanted that for that record... in case we need a whole test suite on the decision. 15:11:04 +1 Elias -- I'm willing to take yr comment as volunteering :> 15:11:11 action: ericP effect: DATATYE (RDF term) => IRI | "" => xsd:string, ""@foo => error, ""^^X => X, blank node => error, IRI => error 15:11:34 q+ 15:11:47 ack bijan 15:12:52 bijan: How should datatype values behave, when denoted using some other syntax other than a datatyped literal? (E.g., what if you give pi an IRI?) 15:13:38 zakim, flip a coin 15:13:38 I don't understand 'flip a coin', ericP 15:13:58 zakim, you are useless 15:13:58 I don't understand 'you are useless', kendallclark 15:14:12 q+ to object to "we are supporting D-entailment" 15:16:38 ack EliasT 15:16:49 i think it's important that there be some way to differentiate plain literals from literals typed as xsd:string in SPARQL 15:17:42 isPlainLiteral 15:17:48 isTypedLiteral 15:17:51 isLiteralWithLang 15:17:52 :) 15:18:09 zakim, mute me 15:18:09 bijan should now be muted 15:18:17 isPlainLiteral would be enough, actually 15:18:23 Hmm 15:18:24 Yes 15:19:01 zakim, unmute me 15:19:01 bijan should no longer be muted 15:19:04 ACTION EliasT: follow up w/ Andy on "the idiom" for plain literals/string literals 15:19:30 sameTerm("", ""^^xsd:string) 15:19:44 Do we get a problem if we're doing a multi-graph query, and the different graphs have different types describing the same node? What if one graph describes "IV"^x:roman, and the other "4"^^xsd:int? 15:19:53 So "sameTerm(?x, str(?x))" 15:20:00 nice! 15:20:13 I'm happy with that, AndyS. 15:20:41 zakim, unmute me 15:20:41 bijan was not muted, bijan 15:21:26 zakim, mute me 15:21:26 bijan should now be muted 15:21:35 It is obscure 15:21:43 Cool, but a tad obscure 15:21:52 ack ericp 15:21:52 ericP, you wanted to object to "we are supporting D-entailment" 15:22:24 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24.html#matchDEntail 15:22:31 zakim, unmute me 15:22:31 bijan should no longer be muted 15:22:45 RDF defines D-Entailment where extra semantic conditions are allowed for datatypes. When matching RDF literals in graph patterns, the datatype lexical-to-value mapping may be reflected into the underlying RDF graph, leading to additional matches where it is known that two literals are the same value. RDF semantics does not require this of all RDF graphs. 15:23:39 ericP: Doesn't see where we're using D-entailment. Questions some of Bijan's reliance upon this assumption, which from a more conservative point of view may not hold. 15:24:10 my reading is hte same as eric's 15:25:12 Bijan: Worried if we use D-entailment in some places, but not all. 15:25:18 we can split up readings on both sides and that even *more* proves the point that the text isn't sufficiently clear. 15:25:48 hmm,i don't know how :) 15:25:58 DROP? 15:25:59 I'd like to strike the D-entailment text (section 4.8) because of this (as noted in email I think). We are open to other entailments than the core "simple" like D*. 15:26:09 ACTION -4 15:26:38 in this as in most other things 15:26:46 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24.html#operandDataTypes 15:26:50 not for parenting... for sure. 15:27:05 Say, do with distinguish rdf:xmlLiteral-entailment from XSD-entailment...? 15:27:44 rdf:xmlLiteral is special - it is the RDF datatype (it says "the" in RDF concepts) :-) 15:28:05 so, simonR, yes. 15:28:23 ericP: D-entailment and the XPath functions in literal matching are similar, but only because they're both informed by XPath. 15:28:31 It is defined (value space etc - that's where I got the canonicalization stuff from) in concepts not covered by XSD-enatilment. 15:29:26 So, does simple entailment encompass xmlLiteral, or is it in addition to it? 15:30:15 (ARQ can match {:x :p 1 } on :x :p "1"^^xsd:byte but does not use that level for testing DAWG tests.) 15:30:21 a point that has been made repeatedly, I belive 15:30:40 bijan: It's not clear that it's always possible to do D-entailment by extending the graph; this is a dangerous direction. 15:30:48 That's Pat 15:30:49 Not me 15:30:54 Oops. Sorry! 15:31:58 that 'querying over the closure' is often impossible 15:32:05 :x rdf:type xsd;positiveInteger. 15:32:05 :y rdf:type xsd:negativeInteger. 15:32:14 it makes the charter stuff about 'virtual graphs', well, *bad* IMO 15:33:20 Hmm. They seem to be meaningful; they just necessarily never have an extension.... 15:33:56 (hmm, s/often impossible/may be impossible in some cases/) 15:34:20 Ack to the modification. 15:35:58 PatH: It is justifiable to do selective D-entailment. 15:37:15 Bijan: It is orthogonal, D-entailment and non-literal value testing. 15:37:15 1) Restrict value testing to data values with literal form 15:37:15 (I think this is the implicit understanding) 15:37:15 2) Allow value testing to test non literal data values 15:37:15 (Implementation wise, this would require preserving the type of URIs 15:37:15 and BNodes in internal tables, at least; there's no syntax to pass 15:37:16 that into result sets). 15:38:21 zakim, who's on the phone 15:38:21 I don't understand 'who's on the phone', kendallclark 15:38:23 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:38:23 On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, AndyS, ericP, bijan, SimonR, PatH, EliasT, SteveH 15:38:27 Kendall: Asking around the table about which position we favor. 15:38:50 AndyS: Support 1, caveats on exact wording. 15:39:08 EricP: Support 1, scared of 2. 15:39:16 Bijan: Support 2, don't mind 1. 15:39:34 "fear" -- clearly a technical term :) 15:39:48 Ooo, 3rd position 15:39:56 3) duel operators with each sense 15:40:22 SimonR: Thing neither really is viable, need to be able to support choosing one or the other. Abstain. 15:40:29 i think we have done that by using specific XPath semantics 15:40:37 PatH: Agree with Andy, support 1. 15:40:44 EliasT: Support 1. 15:41:09 SteveH: Support 1. 15:41:42 Bijan: Followup question: If we were to support D-entailment, would that change your answer? 15:41:50 PatH: Yes, it would. 15:42:32 is this a proposal to add a D-entailment? 15:43:32 Kendall: If choosing 1 is implicitly a choose against D-entailment, everyone should be aware of this. 15:45:13 ericP: Trouble with introducing D-entailment is that it introduces contradictions. 15:45:21 (That was Eric, right?) 15:45:28 That was Bijan I think. 15:45:35 It was me 15:45:40 Drat. I suck at this. :P 15:45:54 PROPOSAL: "Restrict value testing to data values with literal form" -- or words to that effect 15:46:03 simon, you are better than me at it. 15:46:19 "Restrict to literals with explicit form" 15:47:26 "Restrict value testing to ""^^ thingies" 15:47:29 +1 to that proposal 15:47:41 ericp: see, colloquial is good :> 15:48:06 PROPOSAL: To restrict value testing to literals. 15:48:10 And the syntactic forms reside in some single, specific graph at all times? 15:48:11 +! 15:48:13 +1 15:48:22 "Other data values, such as :x rdf:type xsd:integer, are not blah blah" 15:48:30 H 15:48:33 what genus is Zakim? 15:48:54 "URIs or BNodes, even if they denote data values, are errors" 15:48:57 Maybe somethign liek that? 15:49:00 RESOLVED: Seconded by Eric, no abstentions. 15:50:03 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24.html#matchDEntail 15:50:04 AndyS: Would like to strike reference to D-entailment in s4.8 15:50:07 Section 4.8 15:52:47 zakim, take up next agendum 15:52:47 agendum 1. "convene, startup(), etc" taken up [from kendallclark] 15:52:54 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:52:54 agendum 4. "contradictoryKB" taken up [from kendallclark] 15:56:49 zakim, mute me 15:56:49 bijan should now be muted 15:57:12 zakim, unmute me 15:57:12 bijan should no longer be muted 15:57:36 zakim, mute me 15:57:36 bijan should now be muted 15:58:21 Kendall: Inclined to open an issue on the support of D-entailment. 15:58:41 zakim, unmute me 15:58:41 bijan should no longer be muted 15:59:03 PatH: Why treat D-entailment specially? 16:00:52 EricP: Proposes to say in the section where datatypes are introduced, that we don't necessarily do D-entailment. 16:01:30 -EliasT 16:03:19 heh... +1 to distinguishing Perl scripts from civilization. 16:07:23 Is there a list of all the cases like ":x < :y" that have to be considered? booleans and cardinality, ... ??? 16:08:33 ACTION: bijan to write some text on the D-entailment issue 16:09:08 It would help me if it were quite soon (for publishing) - ideal world 16:09:18 andys I'll try by tomorrow or thurs 16:09:22 Ta 16:10:43 -Kendall_Clark 16:10:44 PROPOSED to adjourn. 16:10:45 -PatH 16:10:49 -ericP 16:10:55 -SteveH 16:10:56 -bijan 16:11:03 eric: will you generate the minutes thingie for Simon? 16:11:13 EricP : help SimonR with the minutes?? 16:11:26 rrsagent, make minutes 16:11:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/12-dawg-minutes.html AndyS 16:11:38 rrsagent, make minutes world readable 16:11:38 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world readable', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:11:58 rrsagent, make minutes world visible 16:11:58 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world visible', ericP. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:12:04 rrsagent, make minutes world 16:12:04 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world', ericP. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:12:09 rrsagent, make log world 16:12:13 score!!! 16:12:29 bye zakim 16:12:40 zakim, please leave 16:12:40 leaving. As of this point the attendees were David, Kendall_Clark, AndyS, ericP, bijan, PatH, SimonR, EliasT, SteveH 16:12:40 Zakim has left #dawg 16:12:49 RRSAgent, please leave 16:12:49 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/12-dawg-actions.rdf : 16:12:49 ACTION: ericP to send mail describing how http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#rdfsemantics-var-type-var and http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#rdfsemantics-bnode-type-var (posted in http://www.w3.org/mid/20060814121827.GC6336@w3.org) illustrate basic graph matching conflicts between LC1 and LC2 semantics [1] 16:12:49 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/12-dawg-irc#T14-36-27 16:12:49 ACTION: BijanP to to propose some editorial clarification text around DATATYPE [2] 16:12:49 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/12-dawg-irc#T14-56-00 16:12:49 ACTION: ericP effect: DATATYE (RDF term) => IRI | "" => xsd:string, ""@foo => error, ""^^X => X, blank node => error, IRI => error [3] 16:12:49 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/12-dawg-irc#T15-11-11 16:12:49 ACTION: bijan to write some text on the D-entailment issue [5] 16:12:49 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/12-dawg-irc#T16-08-33