14:53:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:53:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/09/05-rif-irc
14:53:23 <sandro> Zakim, this will be rif
14:53:23 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:35 <sandro> RRSAgent, make record public
14:54:05 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
14:54:30 <kifer> kifer has joined #rif
14:54:43 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RIF Agenda 5 September http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Sep/0003
14:54:58 <patranja> patranja has joined #rif
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14:55:21 <FrankMcCabe> FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
14:56:15 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:56:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:56:34 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, ipcaller is me
14:56:34 <Zakim> +FrankMcCabe; got it
14:56:35 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:58:03 <josb> josb has joined #rif
14:59:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:27 <Zakim> +Donald_Chapin (was [IPcaller])
14:59:59 <Donald_Chapin> Donald_Chapin has joined #rif
15:00:01 <MarkusK> MarkusK has joined #rif
15:00:19 <Zakim> +PaulaP
15:00:20 <Allen> Allen has joined #rif
15:00:21 <Donald_Chapin> zakim, mute me
15:00:21 <Zakim> Donald_Chapin should now be muted
15:00:23 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:09 <Zakim> +Allen_Ginsberg
15:01:17 <Allen> zakim, mute me
15:01:17 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:01:20 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
15:01:30 <Zakim> +Jos_de_Bruijn
15:01:43 <Zakim> +??P29
15:01:55 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:02:00 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:06 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:02:09 <ChrisW> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:02:09 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:02:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:02:17 <Harold> zakim [NRCC] is me
15:02:18 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P29)
15:02:25 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Donald_Chapin (muted), PaulaP (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), josb (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, [NRCC]
15:02:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:42 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #rif
15:02:57 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:02:57 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:03:00 <johnhall> johnhall has joined #rif
15:03:23 <Allen> zakim, unmute me
15:03:31 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
15:03:53 <SaidTabet> SaidTabet has joined #RIF
15:04:05 <sandro> like this:    ACTION: Allen to fly to the moon
15:04:10 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:04:17 <Allen> OK
15:04:21 <ChrisW> scribenick: Allen_Ginsberg
15:04:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, IBM is Leora Morgenstern
15:04:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'IBM is Leora Morgenstern', LeoraMorgenstern
15:04:34 <sandro> zakim, IBM is LeoraMorgenstern 
15:04:34 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:04:36 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:04:46 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, please mute me
15:04:46 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:04:59 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:05:03 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F3#minutes
15:05:05 <Zakim> +Said_Tabet
15:05:06 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:05:08 <Zakim> +??P41
15:05:08 <Allen> Chris:  f2f3 minutes now on wiki
15:05:22 <SaidTabet> zakim, mute me
15:05:24 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should now be muted
15:05:25 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:05:27 <Allen> Chris: too soon to approve
15:05:46 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:05:55 <Allen> Will approve next week
15:06:01 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:06:01 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:06:11 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Aug/0041.html
15:06:23 <Allen> last week telecon minutes posted
15:06:38 <Allen> Approve?
15:06:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:51 <johnhall> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:06:51 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
15:06:58 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:06:58 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:07:33 <Allen> Does not have regrets or attendance
15:07:59 <Allen> David will send email to Alex to please update attendance - regrets
15:08:09 <Allen> No updates to agenda
15:08:16 <Donald_Chapin> nothing new
15:08:19 <Allen> Liason?
15:08:37 <Allen> UCR
15:08:55 <sandro> topic: UCR
15:09:52 <sandro> Allen: UC1 is clearly about exchanging both facts and rules.   Maybe Sven's question was about an earlier version or something.
15:10:18 <sandro> Allen: (addressing Sven's review of UCR)
15:11:06 <sandro> ChrisW: I haven't finished putting in the action updates from last week.
15:12:47 <ChrisW> ACTION: allen to post the previous work on links between reqs and
15:12:47 <ChrisW> UC 
15:12:47 <rifbot> Created ACTION-98 - Post the previous work on links between reqs and [on Allen Ginsberg - due 2006-09-12].
15:13:32 <sandro> ACTION-98 CLOSED
15:13:54 <Zakim> +Jos_De_Roo
15:16:13 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:16:25 <sandro> Looking at: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/products    to see overview of topics
15:17:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> what document is Chris reading from?
15:17:48 <Zakim> +Christian
15:17:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> URL?
15:18:01 <sandro> Chris is probably looking at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/open
15:18:05 <LeoraMorgenstern> Okay, thanks.
15:19:54 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Use_Cases
15:20:09 <Allen> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR
15:20:43 <JosDeRoo> JosDeRoo has joined #rif
15:20:52 <Zakim> + +44.186.527.aaaa
15:22:55 <sandro> Topic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/3
15:22:56 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:23:09 <sandro> "Which CSFs (other than Alignment) does the XML syntax requirement support?  "
15:23:22 <csma> q?
15:23:40 <JosDeRoo> JosDeRoo has joined #rif
15:24:44 <csma> q+
15:25:02 <sandro> CSFs are http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Goals
15:25:46 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:25:50 <sandro> look at 9-circle diagram near top of that page
15:26:05 <MalaMehrotra> MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
15:26:06 <Zakim> - +44.186.527.aaaa
15:26:35 <sandro> csma: The idea is to show that XML is important for more than just W3C.
15:27:00 <sandro> csma: ie it supports widescale adoption in other ways, too.
15:27:11 <sandro> ChrisW:  + low cost of implementation
15:27:12 <Zakim> +Mala_Mehrotra
15:27:18 <sandro> ChrisW: + Extensibility
15:27:27 <Zakim> + +44.186.527.aabb
15:27:30 <sandro> ChrisW: what about Interoperability?
15:27:39 <MichaelKifer> zakim, aabb is me
15:27:39 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:27:46 <sandro> csma: That's interop between rules
15:27:51 <csma> ack csma
15:28:02 <Zakim> -Said_Tabet
15:28:11 <sandro> FrankMcCabe: link between XML and extensibility is pretty weal
15:28:25 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:28:25 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:28:26 <sandro> sandro: I don't know if it's weak yet -- I don't know how we're doing extensibility
15:28:30 <DaveReynolds> -1 on XML having strong support for the extesibility CSF
15:29:21 <sandro> csma: I think XML is a CSF itself -- it makes RIF *mentally* easier to adopt
15:29:48 <GaryHallmark> xml syntax supports low cost implementation because you can reuse standard language tools
15:29:55 <sandro> FrankMcCabe: That is -- "low cost of adoption"
15:30:11 <sandro> csma: Implementation is one part of adoption
15:30:14 <sandro> q?
15:31:51 <sandro> sandro: low cost of software development (adoption by vendors); low cost of deployment (adoption by end-users).
15:32:09 <sandro> FrankMcCabe: you could interpret "implementation" more generally
15:33:09 <ChrisW> ACTION: Frank to draft solution to Issue #
15:33:09 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Frank
15:33:14 <GiorgosStoilos> GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif
15:33:19 <ChrisW> ACTION: Francis to draft solution to Issue 3
15:33:20 <rifbot> Created ACTION-99 - Draft solution to Issue 3 [on Francis McCabe - due 2006-09-12].
15:34:06 <sandro> topic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/4
15:34:39 <Zakim> +[IVML]
15:34:57 <GiorgosStoilos> zakim, [IVML] is me
15:34:57 <Zakim> +GiorgosStoilos; got it
15:35:03 <sandro> ChrisW: How about Frank looks at all the issues around linking Reqs o Goals and CSFS,   issue 3, 4, 13
15:36:57 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Document_issues?highlight=%28ucr%29%7C%28issues%29
15:37:09 <sandro> ammend action 99 to cover issues 4 and 13 as well
15:42:22 <csma> Q+ to ask about the link between UC and reqs
15:43:27 <ChrisW> ACTION: Allen to deal with ISSUE-5
15:43:44 <sandro> rifbot not happy about the database being offline either.
15:43:56 <ChrisW> NOTE that rifbot stopped before ACTION 4
15:44:38 <Allen> I'm scribing again
15:44:38 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
15:44:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Donald_Chapin (muted), PaulaP (muted), Allen_Ginsberg, josb (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Harold, MarkusK
15:44:41 <Zakim> ... (muted), LeoraMorgenstern (muted), Gary_Hallmark, JeffP, Mike_Dean, StellaMitchell (muted), johnhall (muted), Jos_De_Roo (muted), csma (muted), Mala_Mehrotra, MichaelKifer
15:44:43 <PaulaP> Axel sent regrets
15:44:45 <Zakim> ... (muted), GiorgosStoilos
15:44:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see GiorgosStoilos, MalaMehrotra, MichaelKifer, JosDeRoo, csma, GaryHallmark, StellaMitchell, johnhall, JeffP, LeoraMorgenstern, Hassan, DaveReynolds, Allen, MarkusK,
15:44:49 <Zakim> ... Donald_Chapin, josb, FrankMcCabe, PaulaP, ChrisW, RRSAgent, Zakim, Harold, mdean, sandro
15:44:55 <Allen> Action review for RIFRAF
15:45:22 <Allen> Hassan's Action?
15:46:11 <Allen> Hassan and Christian will talk
15:46:14 <Allen> continued
15:46:20 <Allen> Alex and Axel not here
15:46:27 <Allen> End of action review
15:46:43 <Allen> Issues
15:47:22 <Allen> Taxonomy/ontology tools for building  RIFRAF artifacts?
15:47:40 <Hassan> Great idea - but we need to agree on terms
15:47:41 <Allen> Should we use OWL?
15:47:51 <FrankMcCabe> we should use RIF
15:47:53 <Allen> Or RDF/RDFS
15:48:08 <Allen> Frank: excellant idea. 
15:48:15 <Allen> Hassan +1
15:48:50 <Allen> Hassan: but does OWL have expressiveness?
15:49:20 <Allen> Sandro: seems like it could be good enough
15:49:30 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:49:37 <Allen> Hassan: agrees, but does everyone else agree?
15:50:07 <sandro> ack csma 
15:50:08 <Allen> Chris: even if something in RIFRAF is beyond OWL, doesn't mean it doesn't go in RIFRAF
15:50:09 <Zakim> csma, you wanted to ask about the link between UC and reqs
15:50:17 <ChrisW> ack csma
15:50:34 <ChrisW> ack dave
15:50:44 <Allen> Dave: what does owl encoding buy us?
15:51:04 <FrankMcCabe> OWL would enhance precision
15:51:10 <Allen> Dave: if it is only for people why do it?
15:51:44 <csma> q+
15:52:02 <Allen> Chris: will need to include text annotation. Problem is we are beyond capabilities of questionaire tech is doing this.
15:52:13 <Allen> Dave: this is less work than fixing questionaire?
15:52:17 <Hassan> q+
15:52:22 <csma> q?
15:52:22 <Allen> Sandro: looks like it is
15:52:31 <csma> ack csma
15:53:20 <Allen> Christian: encoding in owl buys us help in extracting the meaning of the terms
15:54:20 <Allen> Dave: need to analysis questionaire data
15:54:44 <ChrisW> ack hassan
15:55:21 <Allen> Hassan: don't think it will be that much work and will be a time saver....Questionaire is losing forest for trees.
15:56:42 <Allen> Hassan: would like to discuss specifications with sandro
15:57:02 <ChrisW> q?
15:57:10 <Allen> Chris: might want to ask Axel as well... contunue to pursue this idea
15:57:14 <sandro> general sense: let's go ahead
15:57:42 <Allen> Move on to Technical Design
15:57:49 <Allen> Action Review
15:58:02 <Allen> Peter's action done
15:58:44 <csma> q+
15:58:54 <Allen> Any discussion on Peter's versus pre-existing wiki?
15:59:08 <csma> ack csma
15:59:14 <Allen> Christian: if we remove negation aren't they the same?
15:59:29 <Allen> Chris and Harold agree with that
15:59:32 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:59:32 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:00:12 <Allen> Christian: could be used for first draft of technical design
16:00:27 <JeffP> q+
16:00:34 <Allen> Michael: semantics doesn't make sense for naf
16:01:04 <Allen> csma: didn't understand M's email
16:01:40 <Allen> Michael: agreed, but this was clarified in 2nd email.
16:02:09 <Allen> Michael: naf changes what is an intended models
16:02:32 <ChrisW> q?
16:02:35 <Allen> Michael: naf makes a global difference
16:02:49 <Harold> We could start with http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/A.1_Basis%3A_Positive_Conditions and extend those to Horn rules in Phase 1.
16:03:07 <Allen> Csma: for phase 1 it makes no difference...
16:03:50 <Allen> Michael: phase 2 naf would require more but compatible with earlier
16:04:39 <Allen> csma: do phase 1 w/o negation 
16:04:42 <Harold> q+
16:05:33 <Allen> JeffP: what about individual vs data values for variables in P's proposal
16:06:09 <JeffP> ack me
16:06:09 <Allen> Chris: michael's proposal was different from P's in that way
16:07:31 <Allen> Michael:  also need to divide predicates along those lines too then
16:08:03 <Allen> Chris: does M's semantics include that (possibly)
16:08:07 <Allen> M: yes
16:08:21 <Allen> but it was a general framework not a semantics per s
16:08:37 <Hassan> q+
16:08:49 <csma> q?
16:08:52 <Allen> Chris: is breaking the universe up this way required for phase 1
16:09:17 <csma> ack harold
16:09:43 <Allen> Harold: for many purposes not necessary, but not a major problem if we need to do it later
16:10:20 <DaveReynolds> +1 to starting with union, RDF would want to bind variables to both kinds
16:10:20 <Allen> could add these separate domains into later refinements
16:10:39 <JeffP> q+
16:11:13 <Allen> Harold: it should not contain this 
16:11:45 <Allen> core is union; extensions could be refinements
16:11:53 <ChrisW> ack hassan
16:11:54 <csma> ack Hass
16:12:21 <Hassan> My phone is dead ... I'call
16:12:28 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:12:35 <csma> ack jeffp
16:13:01 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:13:13 <Allen> JeffP: these issues can be related in some way, might want to think more carefully
16:13:15 <Hassan> I'm back - sorry!
16:13:33 <Allen> design choices could impact the way we extend to negation
16:14:12 <Hassan> q+
16:14:33 <Allen> Michael:  not related.  data types uses sorts.  negation proceeds same with or without sorts
16:14:46 <csma> ack hassan
16:15:19 <Allen> Hassan: agree with M.  
16:16:14 <Allen> Chris: question is do we need it in the core?
16:16:35 <Allen> Hassan: this semantics is agnostic to the universe of discourse
16:16:50 <Harold> We could have a uniform 'universe' of constants initially, then split into "i" and "d" constants, then split "d" according to XML Part 2 (Datatypes). Maybe we don't want new kinds of variables for all of these refinements of constants, instead permit certain kinds of 'generic' variables (for some of these distinctions).
16:17:12 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:17:13 <Allen> Chris: only one has been proposed so far and that one makes the distinction. Can we simply that?
16:17:37 <Allen> Hassan: it is silly to have that.
16:17:42 <JeffP> q+
16:17:47 <FrankMcCabe> q+
16:18:03 <Allen> Chris: not silly.  should it be in core or in extension.
16:18:14 <csma> q?
16:18:21 <csma> ack jeffp
16:19:08 <Allen> JeffP: another way is to distinguish predicates. 
16:19:19 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
16:19:30 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MichaelKifer (9%), GiorgosStoilos (10%)
16:19:59 <Allen> eg, if you have builtin than its variables have type info
16:20:04 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
16:20:05 <csma> ack frankm
16:20:15 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MichaelKifer (4%), FrankMcCabe (69%)
16:20:58 <Allen> Frank: puzzled  by peter's intention.  
16:22:16 <MichaelKifer> q+
16:23:11 <Allen> Michael: typing variables is problematic.  Don't make the distinction in the core.
16:24:16 <Allen> csma: support that.  first version should be simple.  reaction to core will tell us what to do
16:24:18 <Harold> I agree with Chris and Michael and Christian: Easier not make distinction in first core.
16:24:50 <Allen> Chris: next step - put peter's work in wiki page and connect it to technical design
16:25:30 <Harold> q+
16:25:46 <Allen> but delete negation and revise interpretation to get rid of distinction
16:26:25 <Allen> Michael: start new wiki page with original?
16:26:34 <Allen> Chris: no.
16:27:31 <Allen> Harold: can help
16:29:24 <Allen> Harold: can M's proposal be the starting point (made compatible with peter's)
16:29:24 <ChrisW> action: harold to start new wiki page on the core language
16:29:42 <ChrisW> ..to include Peter's proposal modulo changes we discussed
16:30:10 <csma> +1
16:30:10 <JeffP> +1
16:30:12 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:30:14 <PaulaP> bye
16:30:15 <Zakim> -Jos_De_Roo
16:30:15 <Allen> Chris: adjorn
16:30:17 <Zakim> -Harold
16:30:17 <Zakim> -josb
16:30:18 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:30:18 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
16:30:19 <Zakim> -PaulaP
16:30:20 <Zakim> -MarkusK
16:30:21 <Zakim> -johnhall
16:30:23 <Zakim> -FrankMcCabe
16:30:24 <Zakim> -JeffP
16:30:26 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:30:28 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:30:29 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/05-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:30:30 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
16:30:32 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:30:34 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:30:36 <Zakim> -Donald_Chapin
16:31:00 <Zakim> -GiorgosStoilos
16:31:05 <Zakim> -Mala_Mehrotra
16:31:11 <csma> rssagent, make minutes public
16:33:16 <Zakim> -Allen_Ginsberg
16:35:00 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:35:05 <Zakim> -csma
16:35:07 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:35:09 <Zakim> Attendees were FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Donald_Chapin, PaulaP, Allen_Ginsberg, josb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, MarkusK, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary_Hallmark,
16:35:13 <Zakim> ... Said_Tabet, Mike_Dean, JeffP, StellaMitchell, johnhall, Jos_De_Roo, csma, +44.186.527.aaaa, Mala_Mehrotra, +44.186.527.aabb, MichaelKifer, GiorgosStoilos
16:35:46 <csma> csma has left #rif
16:50:57 <Allen> Allen has joined #rif
18:43:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rif