IRC log of rif on 2006-09-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:16 [RRSAgent]
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14:53:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/09/05-rif-irc
14:53:23 [sandro]
Zakim, this will be rif
14:53:23 [Zakim]
ok, sandro; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:35 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make record public
14:54:05 [ChrisW]
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14:54:30 [kifer]
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14:54:43 [sandro]
sandro has changed the topic to: RIF Agenda 5 September http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Sep/0003
14:54:58 [patranja]
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14:55:12 [MichaelKifer]
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14:55:21 [FrankMcCabe]
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14:56:15 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:56:23 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:56:34 [FrankMcCabe]
zakim, ipcaller is me
14:56:34 [Zakim]
+FrankMcCabe; got it
14:56:35 [Zakim]
+Sandro
14:58:03 [josb]
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14:59:19 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:59:27 [Zakim]
+Donald_Chapin (was [IPcaller])
14:59:59 [Donald_Chapin]
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15:00:01 [MarkusK]
MarkusK has joined #rif
15:00:19 [Zakim]
+PaulaP
15:00:20 [Allen]
Allen has joined #rif
15:00:21 [Donald_Chapin]
zakim, mute me
15:00:21 [Zakim]
Donald_Chapin should now be muted
15:00:23 [DaveReynolds]
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15:01:09 [Zakim]
+Allen_Ginsberg
15:01:17 [Allen]
zakim, mute me
15:01:17 [Zakim]
Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:01:20 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
15:01:30 [Zakim]
+Jos_de_Bruijn
15:01:43 [Zakim]
+??P29
15:01:55 [Zakim]
+Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:02:00 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:02:06 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:02:09 [ChrisW]
zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:02:09 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:02:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:02:17 [Harold]
zakim [NRCC] is me
15:02:18 [Zakim]
+Dave_Reynolds (was ??P29)
15:02:25 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Donald_Chapin (muted), PaulaP (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), josb (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, [NRCC]
15:02:34 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:02:42 [JeffP]
JeffP has joined #rif
15:02:57 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:02:57 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:03:00 [johnhall]
johnhall has joined #rif
15:03:23 [Allen]
zakim, unmute me
15:03:31 [Zakim]
Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
15:03:53 [SaidTabet]
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15:04:05 [sandro]
like this: ACTION: Allen to fly to the moon
15:04:10 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:04:17 [Allen]
OK
15:04:21 [ChrisW]
scribenick: Allen_Ginsberg
15:04:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, IBM is Leora Morgenstern
15:04:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'IBM is Leora Morgenstern', LeoraMorgenstern
15:04:34 [sandro]
zakim, IBM is LeoraMorgenstern
15:04:34 [Zakim]
+LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:04:36 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:04:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, please mute me
15:04:46 [Zakim]
LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:04:59 [StellaMitchell]
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15:05:03 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F3#minutes
15:05:05 [Zakim]
+Said_Tabet
15:05:06 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:05:08 [Zakim]
+??P41
15:05:08 [Allen]
Chris: f2f3 minutes now on wiki
15:05:22 [SaidTabet]
zakim, mute me
15:05:24 [Zakim]
Said_Tabet should now be muted
15:05:25 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
15:05:27 [Allen]
Chris: too soon to approve
15:05:46 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:05:55 [Allen]
Will approve next week
15:06:01 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:06:01 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:06:11 [ChrisW]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Aug/0041.html
15:06:23 [Allen]
last week telecon minutes posted
15:06:38 [Allen]
Approve?
15:06:41 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:06:51 [johnhall]
zakim, ipcaller is me
15:06:51 [Zakim]
+johnhall; got it
15:06:58 [johnhall]
zakim, mute me
15:06:58 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
15:07:33 [Allen]
Does not have regrets or attendance
15:07:59 [Allen]
David will send email to Alex to please update attendance - regrets
15:08:09 [Allen]
No updates to agenda
15:08:16 [Donald_Chapin]
nothing new
15:08:19 [Allen]
Liason?
15:08:37 [Allen]
UCR
15:08:55 [sandro]
topic: UCR
15:09:52 [sandro]
Allen: UC1 is clearly about exchanging both facts and rules. Maybe Sven's question was about an earlier version or something.
15:10:18 [sandro]
Allen: (addressing Sven's review of UCR)
15:11:06 [sandro]
ChrisW: I haven't finished putting in the action updates from last week.
15:12:47 [ChrisW]
ACTION: allen to post the previous work on links between reqs and
15:12:47 [ChrisW]
UC
15:12:47 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-98 - Post the previous work on links between reqs and [on Allen Ginsberg - due 2006-09-12].
15:13:32 [sandro]
ACTION-98 CLOSED
15:13:54 [Zakim]
+Jos_De_Roo
15:16:13 [csma]
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15:16:25 [sandro]
Looking at: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/products to see overview of topics
15:17:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]
what document is Chris reading from?
15:17:48 [Zakim]
+Christian
15:17:50 [LeoraMorgenstern]
URL?
15:18:01 [sandro]
Chris is probably looking at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/open
15:18:05 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Okay, thanks.
15:19:54 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Use_Cases
15:20:09 [Allen]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR
15:20:43 [JosDeRoo]
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15:20:52 [Zakim]
+ +44.186.527.aaaa
15:22:55 [sandro]
Topic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/3
15:22:56 [DaveReynolds]
q+
15:23:09 [sandro]
"Which CSFs (other than Alignment) does the XML syntax requirement support? "
15:23:22 [csma]
q?
15:23:40 [JosDeRoo]
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15:24:44 [csma]
q+
15:25:02 [sandro]
CSFs are http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Goals
15:25:46 [MichaelKifer]
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15:25:50 [sandro]
look at 9-circle diagram near top of that page
15:26:05 [MalaMehrotra]
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15:26:06 [Zakim]
- +44.186.527.aaaa
15:26:35 [sandro]
csma: The idea is to show that XML is important for more than just W3C.
15:27:00 [sandro]
csma: ie it supports widescale adoption in other ways, too.
15:27:11 [sandro]
ChrisW: + low cost of implementation
15:27:12 [Zakim]
+Mala_Mehrotra
15:27:18 [sandro]
ChrisW: + Extensibility
15:27:27 [Zakim]
+ +44.186.527.aabb
15:27:30 [sandro]
ChrisW: what about Interoperability?
15:27:39 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, aabb is me
15:27:39 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer; got it
15:27:46 [sandro]
csma: That's interop between rules
15:27:51 [csma]
ack csma
15:28:02 [Zakim]
-Said_Tabet
15:28:11 [sandro]
FrankMcCabe: link between XML and extensibility is pretty weal
15:28:25 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:28:25 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:28:26 [sandro]
sandro: I don't know if it's weak yet -- I don't know how we're doing extensibility
15:28:30 [DaveReynolds]
-1 on XML having strong support for the extesibility CSF
15:29:21 [sandro]
csma: I think XML is a CSF itself -- it makes RIF *mentally* easier to adopt
15:29:48 [GaryHallmark]
xml syntax supports low cost implementation because you can reuse standard language tools
15:29:55 [sandro]
FrankMcCabe: That is -- "low cost of adoption"
15:30:11 [sandro]
csma: Implementation is one part of adoption
15:30:14 [sandro]
q?
15:31:51 [sandro]
sandro: low cost of software development (adoption by vendors); low cost of deployment (adoption by end-users).
15:32:09 [sandro]
FrankMcCabe: you could interpret "implementation" more generally
15:33:09 [ChrisW]
ACTION: Frank to draft solution to Issue #
15:33:09 [rifbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Frank
15:33:14 [GiorgosStoilos]
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15:33:19 [ChrisW]
ACTION: Francis to draft solution to Issue 3
15:33:20 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-99 - Draft solution to Issue 3 [on Francis McCabe - due 2006-09-12].
15:34:06 [sandro]
topic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/4
15:34:39 [Zakim]
+[IVML]
15:34:57 [GiorgosStoilos]
zakim, [IVML] is me
15:34:57 [Zakim]
+GiorgosStoilos; got it
15:35:03 [sandro]
ChrisW: How about Frank looks at all the issues around linking Reqs o Goals and CSFS, issue 3, 4, 13
15:36:57 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Document_issues?highlight=%28ucr%29%7C%28issues%29
15:37:09 [sandro]
ammend action 99 to cover issues 4 and 13 as well
15:42:22 [csma]
Q+ to ask about the link between UC and reqs
15:43:27 [ChrisW]
ACTION: Allen to deal with ISSUE-5
15:43:44 [sandro]
rifbot not happy about the database being offline either.
15:43:56 [ChrisW]
NOTE that rifbot stopped before ACTION 4
15:44:38 [Allen]
I'm scribing again
15:44:38 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is here?
15:44:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Donald_Chapin (muted), PaulaP (muted), Allen_Ginsberg, josb (muted), Dave_Reynolds, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Harold, MarkusK
15:44:41 [Zakim]
... (muted), LeoraMorgenstern (muted), Gary_Hallmark, JeffP, Mike_Dean, StellaMitchell (muted), johnhall (muted), Jos_De_Roo (muted), csma (muted), Mala_Mehrotra, MichaelKifer
15:44:43 [PaulaP]
Axel sent regrets
15:44:45 [Zakim]
... (muted), GiorgosStoilos
15:44:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see GiorgosStoilos, MalaMehrotra, MichaelKifer, JosDeRoo, csma, GaryHallmark, StellaMitchell, johnhall, JeffP, LeoraMorgenstern, Hassan, DaveReynolds, Allen, MarkusK,
15:44:49 [Zakim]
... Donald_Chapin, josb, FrankMcCabe, PaulaP, ChrisW, RRSAgent, Zakim, Harold, mdean, sandro
15:44:55 [Allen]
Action review for RIFRAF
15:45:22 [Allen]
Hassan's Action?
15:46:11 [Allen]
Hassan and Christian will talk
15:46:14 [Allen]
continued
15:46:20 [Allen]
Alex and Axel not here
15:46:27 [Allen]
End of action review
15:46:43 [Allen]
Issues
15:47:22 [Allen]
Taxonomy/ontology tools for building RIFRAF artifacts?
15:47:40 [Hassan]
Great idea - but we need to agree on terms
15:47:41 [Allen]
Should we use OWL?
15:47:51 [FrankMcCabe]
we should use RIF
15:47:53 [Allen]
Or RDF/RDFS
15:48:08 [Allen]
Frank: excellant idea.
15:48:15 [Allen]
Hassan +1
15:48:50 [Allen]
Hassan: but does OWL have expressiveness?
15:49:20 [Allen]
Sandro: seems like it could be good enough
15:49:30 [DaveReynolds]
q+
15:49:37 [Allen]
Hassan: agrees, but does everyone else agree?
15:50:07 [sandro]
ack csma
15:50:08 [Allen]
Chris: even if something in RIFRAF is beyond OWL, doesn't mean it doesn't go in RIFRAF
15:50:09 [Zakim]
csma, you wanted to ask about the link between UC and reqs
15:50:17 [ChrisW]
ack csma
15:50:34 [ChrisW]
ack dave
15:50:44 [Allen]
Dave: what does owl encoding buy us?
15:51:04 [FrankMcCabe]
OWL would enhance precision
15:51:10 [Allen]
Dave: if it is only for people why do it?
15:51:44 [csma]
q+
15:52:02 [Allen]
Chris: will need to include text annotation. Problem is we are beyond capabilities of questionaire tech is doing this.
15:52:13 [Allen]
Dave: this is less work than fixing questionaire?
15:52:17 [Hassan]
q+
15:52:22 [csma]
q?
15:52:22 [Allen]
Sandro: looks like it is
15:52:31 [csma]
ack csma
15:53:20 [Allen]
Christian: encoding in owl buys us help in extracting the meaning of the terms
15:54:20 [Allen]
Dave: need to analysis questionaire data
15:54:44 [ChrisW]
ack hassan
15:55:21 [Allen]
Hassan: don't think it will be that much work and will be a time saver....Questionaire is losing forest for trees.
15:56:42 [Allen]
Hassan: would like to discuss specifications with sandro
15:57:02 [ChrisW]
q?
15:57:10 [Allen]
Chris: might want to ask Axel as well... contunue to pursue this idea
15:57:14 [sandro]
general sense: let's go ahead
15:57:42 [Allen]
Move on to Technical Design
15:57:49 [Allen]
Action Review
15:58:02 [Allen]
Peter's action done
15:58:44 [csma]
q+
15:58:54 [Allen]
Any discussion on Peter's versus pre-existing wiki?
15:59:08 [csma]
ack csma
15:59:14 [Allen]
Christian: if we remove negation aren't they the same?
15:59:29 [Allen]
Chris and Harold agree with that
15:59:32 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:59:32 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:00:12 [Allen]
Christian: could be used for first draft of technical design
16:00:27 [JeffP]
q+
16:00:34 [Allen]
Michael: semantics doesn't make sense for naf
16:01:04 [Allen]
csma: didn't understand M's email
16:01:40 [Allen]
Michael: agreed, but this was clarified in 2nd email.
16:02:09 [Allen]
Michael: naf changes what is an intended models
16:02:32 [ChrisW]
q?
16:02:35 [Allen]
Michael: naf makes a global difference
16:02:49 [Harold]
We could start with http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/A.1_Basis%3A_Positive_Conditions and extend those to Horn rules in Phase 1.
16:03:07 [Allen]
Csma: for phase 1 it makes no difference...
16:03:50 [Allen]
Michael: phase 2 naf would require more but compatible with earlier
16:04:39 [Allen]
csma: do phase 1 w/o negation
16:04:42 [Harold]
q+
16:05:33 [Allen]
JeffP: what about individual vs data values for variables in P's proposal
16:06:09 [JeffP]
ack me
16:06:09 [Allen]
Chris: michael's proposal was different from P's in that way
16:07:31 [Allen]
Michael: also need to divide predicates along those lines too then
16:08:03 [Allen]
Chris: does M's semantics include that (possibly)
16:08:07 [Allen]
M: yes
16:08:21 [Allen]
but it was a general framework not a semantics per s
16:08:37 [Hassan]
q+
16:08:49 [csma]
q?
16:08:52 [Allen]
Chris: is breaking the universe up this way required for phase 1
16:09:17 [csma]
ack harold
16:09:43 [Allen]
Harold: for many purposes not necessary, but not a major problem if we need to do it later
16:10:20 [DaveReynolds]
+1 to starting with union, RDF would want to bind variables to both kinds
16:10:20 [Allen]
could add these separate domains into later refinements
16:10:39 [JeffP]
q+
16:11:13 [Allen]
Harold: it should not contain this
16:11:45 [Allen]
core is union; extensions could be refinements
16:11:53 [ChrisW]
ack hassan
16:11:54 [csma]
ack Hass
16:12:21 [Hassan]
My phone is dead ... I'call
16:12:28 [Zakim]
-Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:12:35 [csma]
ack jeffp
16:13:01 [Zakim]
+Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:13:13 [Allen]
JeffP: these issues can be related in some way, might want to think more carefully
16:13:15 [Hassan]
I'm back - sorry!
16:13:33 [Allen]
design choices could impact the way we extend to negation
16:14:12 [Hassan]
q+
16:14:33 [Allen]
Michael: not related. data types uses sorts. negation proceeds same with or without sorts
16:14:46 [csma]
ack hassan
16:15:19 [Allen]
Hassan: agree with M.
16:16:14 [Allen]
Chris: question is do we need it in the core?
16:16:35 [Allen]
Hassan: this semantics is agnostic to the universe of discourse
16:16:50 [Harold]
We could have a uniform 'universe' of constants initially, then split into "i" and "d" constants, then split "d" according to XML Part 2 (Datatypes). Maybe we don't want new kinds of variables for all of these refinements of constants, instead permit certain kinds of 'generic' variables (for some of these distinctions).
16:17:12 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:17:13 [Allen]
Chris: only one has been proposed so far and that one makes the distinction. Can we simply that?
16:17:37 [Allen]
Hassan: it is silly to have that.
16:17:42 [JeffP]
q+
16:17:47 [FrankMcCabe]
q+
16:18:03 [Allen]
Chris: not silly. should it be in core or in extension.
16:18:14 [csma]
q?
16:18:21 [csma]
ack jeffp
16:19:08 [Allen]
JeffP: another way is to distinguish predicates.
16:19:19 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is talking?
16:19:30 [Zakim]
ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MichaelKifer (9%), GiorgosStoilos (10%)
16:19:59 [Allen]
eg, if you have builtin than its variables have type info
16:20:04 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is talking?
16:20:05 [csma]
ack frankm
16:20:15 [Zakim]
ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MichaelKifer (4%), FrankMcCabe (69%)
16:20:58 [Allen]
Frank: puzzled by peter's intention.
16:22:16 [MichaelKifer]
q+
16:23:11 [Allen]
Michael: typing variables is problematic. Don't make the distinction in the core.
16:24:16 [Allen]
csma: support that. first version should be simple. reaction to core will tell us what to do
16:24:18 [Harold]
I agree with Chris and Michael and Christian: Easier not make distinction in first core.
16:24:50 [Allen]
Chris: next step - put peter's work in wiki page and connect it to technical design
16:25:30 [Harold]
q+
16:25:46 [Allen]
but delete negation and revise interpretation to get rid of distinction
16:26:25 [Allen]
Michael: start new wiki page with original?
16:26:34 [Allen]
Chris: no.
16:27:31 [Allen]
Harold: can help
16:29:24 [Allen]
Harold: can M's proposal be the starting point (made compatible with peter's)
16:29:24 [ChrisW]
action: harold to start new wiki page on the core language
16:29:42 [ChrisW]
..to include Peter's proposal modulo changes we discussed
16:30:10 [csma]
+1
16:30:10 [JeffP]
+1
16:30:12 [Zakim]
-Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:30:14 [PaulaP]
bye
16:30:15 [Zakim]
-Jos_De_Roo
16:30:15 [Allen]
Chris: adjorn
16:30:17 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:30:17 [Zakim]
-josb
16:30:18 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
16:30:18 [Zakim]
-Dave_Reynolds
16:30:19 [Zakim]
-PaulaP
16:30:20 [Zakim]
-MarkusK
16:30:21 [Zakim]
-johnhall
16:30:23 [Zakim]
-FrankMcCabe
16:30:24 [Zakim]
-JeffP
16:30:26 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:30:28 [Zakim]
-MichaelKifer
16:30:29 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/09/05-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:30:30 [Zakim]
-LeoraMorgenstern
16:30:32 [Zakim]
-StellaMitchell
16:30:34 [Zakim]
-Mike_Dean
16:30:36 [Zakim]
-Donald_Chapin
16:31:00 [Zakim]
-GiorgosStoilos
16:31:05 [Zakim]
-Mala_Mehrotra
16:31:11 [csma]
rssagent, make minutes public
16:33:16 [Zakim]
-Allen_Ginsberg
16:35:00 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:35:05 [Zakim]
-csma
16:35:07 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:35:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Donald_Chapin, PaulaP, Allen_Ginsberg, josb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, MarkusK, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary_Hallmark,
16:35:13 [Zakim]
... Said_Tabet, Mike_Dean, JeffP, StellaMitchell, johnhall, Jos_De_Roo, csma, +44.186.527.aaaa, Mala_Mehrotra, +44.186.527.aabb, MichaelKifer, GiorgosStoilos
16:35:46 [csma]
csma has left #rif
16:50:57 [Allen]
Allen has joined #rif
18:43:55 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rif