IRC log of UA on 2006-08-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:42:35 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #UA

17:42:35 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/08/31-UA-irc

17:42:46 [jallan]

rrsagent, set logs public

17:43:03 [jallan]

zakim, this will be wai_ui

17:43:03 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, jallan

17:43:19 [jallan]

zakim, this will be wai_u

17:43:19 [Zakim]

ok, jallan; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes

17:44:02 [jallan]

meeting: User Agent Teleconference

17:44:09 [jallan]

Chair: Jim Allan

17:44:30 [jallan]

scribe: Jan Richards

17:57:32 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started

17:57:39 [Zakim]

+Jim_Allan

17:58:29 [parente]

parente has joined #ua

17:59:03 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

17:59:13 [JR]

JR has joined #ua

17:59:47 [jallan]

zakim, [IBM] is Parente

17:59:47 [Zakim]

+Parente; got it

17:59:55 [Zakim]

+Jan_Richards

18:00:09 [JR]

slate: JR

18:00:38 [JR]

scribe:JR

18:01:07 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

18:01:25 [jallan]

zakim, [IBM] is cklaws

18:01:25 [Zakim]

+cklaws; got it

18:01:25 [cklaws]

cklaws has joined #ua

18:02:12 [JR]

Topic: 6.4 Programmatic access to information about rendered content (P1)

18:03:44 [Zakim]

+DPoehlman

18:05:03 [JR]

JA: Sent this earlier: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2006JulSep/0040.html

18:05:13 [JR]

PP: Has some other links for Linux...

18:05:44 [JR]

PP: Use AtkComponent as well as AtkText...

18:05:50 [parente]

http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/2.0/atk/AtkComponent.html

18:05:53 [JR]

PP: Plus there is a broken link

18:05:55 [parente]

http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/2.0/atk/AtkText.html

18:06:39 [JR]

CL: We don't generally do this in HPR

18:07:02 [JR]

CL: Believe AT's are going directly to Windows APIs on windows not to DOM

18:07:43 [JR]

JA: How is it on MacOS?

18:08:19 [JR]

PP: MacOS has its own.

18:08:49 [JR]

PP: Even on Linux - application uses ATK, AT's go through ATSPI(sp?)

18:09:34 [JR]

PP: Usually 1 to 1 but ATSPI missing "write" calls

18:09:43 [JR]

JA: WHat about AJAX?

18:10:43 [JR]

CL: Think AJAX people are looking at adding location to AJAX events

18:11:16 [JR]

PP: In Linux we do assume that the ATSPI will be kept up to dat by the browser.

18:11:39 [JR]

PP: But for thinks like changing coordinates, not sure.

18:12:14 [JR]

PP: New ATSPI will have doc events added - start loading, end loading.

18:12:29 [JR]

PP: Also mentions ChildrenChange events

18:12:55 [parente]

http://accessibility.freestandards.org/a11yspecs/atspi/adoc/atspi-events.html

18:14:09 [JR]

PP: Javascript components have to tell browser when things change so browser can tell AT

18:14:49 [JR]

CL: Someone at IBM (Gibson?) knows this stuff...

18:15:15 [JR]

Action CL: Gather Gibson's presentations etc. for the group.

18:16:20 [jallan]

Action: fix links add refereces for Linux include previoius references to ATSPI

18:16:45 [cklaws]

http://www-306.ibm.com/able/resources/ajaxaccessibility.html

18:17:11 [JR]

This is paper Gibson wrote.

18:18:04 [JR]

Gibson = Becky Gibson

18:18:53 [JR]

Topic: 6.5 Programmatic operation of user agent user interface (P1)

18:19:22 [JR]

JA: Has prob with def on user agent ui control...

18:19:42 [JR]

JA: Def says this out of the box browser

18:20:01 [JR]

JA: But may need to expand to extensions and toolbars etc.

18:20:51 [JR]

CL: IE uses COM and ActiveX interfaces for plugins

18:21:34 [JR]

JA: In firefox?

18:21:53 [JR]

CL: Firefox supports XPcom and XUL(sp?)

18:22:49 [JR]

JA: Wondering about accessibility to toolbars etc

18:23:38 [JR]

JA: Are there guidelines, best practoces for these toolbars?

18:24:42 [JR]

CL: Will ask Tom

18:25:01 [JR]

JA: Will ask "Standards Project" about their accessibility toolbar

18:25:18 [JR]

action JA: Will ask "Standards Project" about their accessibility toolbar

18:26:10 [cklaws]

Firefo xa11y features: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Accessibility_features_of_Firefox

18:27:54 [JR]

action PP: Will look around for similar API mechanisms in Linux (for plugging in toolbars, etc.).

18:30:39 [JR]

CL, JR, PP: We should update the examples in Example Techniques 3.

18:32:05 [JR]

CL, PP: Accessibility works best at "semantic" level - buttons etc, not a drawing level - draw rectangle etc

18:32:26 [JR]

CL, PP: Use the desktop level as examples.

18:35:55 [JR]

JA: Maybe add Linux to ex. tech 6?

18:36:54 [JR]

CL: X windows is a weird example

18:37:09 [JR]

PP: Window manager will be written to rely on X...

18:37:29 [JR]

PP: Window managers are separte but at some point bundled

18:38:09 [JR]

CL: In tha tCommunity peple think of Linux+Gnome or Solaris+Gnome

18:38:24 [JR]

JA: Let's change X-Windows to Linux

18:38:38 [jallan]

in techniques 3

18:38:49 [cklaws]

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/727z646z.aspx

18:39:30 [JR]

(Introduction to COM and ATL (goes in Refs for 6.5)

18:39:45 [jallan]

action: ja: added link to references for accessible Com objects

18:41:05 [JR]

JA: Ex. tech. 8 gets back in to low level stuff...

18:41:29 [JR]

JA: So we don't need to add Linux here

18:42:04 [JR]

PP: Will ook up another ref for 8.

18:42:16 [JR]

Topic: 6.6 Programmatic notification of changes (P1)

18:43:47 [JR]

JR: Does first exclusion work with AJAX?

18:43:57 [JR]

CL: There is the "unless" clause

18:44:11 [JR]

PP: The was CSS used now...much can be done

18:44:41 [JR]

CL: APIs still mapping down to the DOM

18:45:09 [JR]

JR: Would this confuse a developer?

18:45:24 [JR]

CL: Yeah we really mean the semantic content

18:45:49 [JR]

PP: Imagine if CSS used to check/uncheck a box.

18:46:13 [JR]

CL: Maybe WCAG prevents this?

18:48:42 [JR]

JR: So what is 6.6 really getting at for deveopers?

18:49:58 [JR]

CL: IN def for document model, CSS is required

18:51:43 [JR]

JR: Does ex. tech. 1 belong here?

18:55:42 [JR]

CL: Used to be common for AT's to hook display drivers...but now we want to use engineered APIs

18:57:00 [JR]

CL: This way all of the samantic info comes along

18:57:24 [JR]

JA: What do we need to do with 6.6?

18:58:26 [JR]

CL: Did ask Rich if you can get where content changes occur as part of event notification, but answer was no.

18:58:49 [jallan]

cl comments related to 6.4

18:59:00 [JR]

CL: So change message happens but must then walk to tree to see where,

19:01:07 [jallan]

jr: 6.6 says must be notified of change, but not WHERE the change occured.

19:02:06 [JR]

PP: Technically if AtkComponent used could get location...

19:02:28 [Zakim]

-DPoehlman

19:02:30 [JR]

PP: eg newchild event, tells source..use source to get location

19:02:38 [JR]

CL: What about text?

19:03:23 [JR]

PP: In new ATSPI, there is an ObjectAttributesChange event that would be relant here

19:03:56 [JR]

PP: For text...TextChangedEvents...but noit sureif any of these are fired by DHTML

19:04:59 [jallan]

action: ja: add reference to roadmap role/state information to references for 6.6

19:05:29 [JR]

CL: ON Windows side, MSAA does not do thiz

19:06:01 [JR]

JA: Next week we will review 6.6

19:06:11 [Zakim]

-cklaws

19:06:12 [Zakim]

-Parente

19:06:20 [Zakim]

-Jan_Richards

19:06:21 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended

19:06:23 [Zakim]

Attendees were Jim_Allan, Parente, Jan_Richards, cklaws, DPoehlman

19:06:37 [JR]

RRSAgent, make minutes

19:06:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/08/31-UA-minutes.html JR

19:06:47 [JR]

RRSAgent, set logs public

19:09:32 [JR]

Zakim, bye

19:09:32 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #ua

19:09:38 [JR]

RRSAgent, bye

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/31-UA-actions.rdf :

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: CL to Gather Gibson's presentations etc. for the group. [1]

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/31-UA-irc#T18-15-15

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: fix links add refereces for Linux include previoius references to ATSPI [2]

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/31-UA-irc#T18-16-20

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JA to Will ask "Standards Project" about their accessibility toolbar [3]

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/31-UA-irc#T18-25-18

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: PP to Will look around for similar API mechanisms in Linux (for plugging in toolbars, etc.). [4]

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/31-UA-irc#T18-27-54

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ja: added link to references for accessible Com objects [5]

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/31-UA-irc#T18-39-45

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ja: add reference to roadmap role/state information to references for 6.6 [6]

19:09:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/31-UA-irc#T19-04-59