IRC log of rif on 2006-08-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:29:54 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:29:54 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-rif-irc
14:30:01 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #rif
14:30:05 [ChrisW]: zakim, this will be rif
14:30:05 [Zakim]: ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 30 minutes
14:30:16 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make logs public
14:51:24 [AlexKozlenkov]: AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif
14:55:15 [FrankMcCabe]: FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
14:57:19 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
14:57:21 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:57:28 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
14:57:38 [FrankMcCabe]: FrankMcCabe has changed the topic to: 22 Aug 06 RIF Agenda: zakim, ipcaller is me
14:57:52 [FrankMcCabe]: zakim, ipcaller is me
14:57:52 [Zakim]: +FrankMcCabe; got it
14:57:54 [igor]: igor has joined #rif
14:57:56 [ChrisW]: ChrisW has changed the topic to: 22 Aug 06 RIF Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Aug/0017.html
14:58:03 [Zakim]: +Sandro
14:58:05 [Francois]: Francois has joined #rif
14:58:19 [mdean]: mdean has joined #rif
14:58:25 [MoZ]: Zakim, what is the code ?
14:58:25 [Zakim]: the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), MoZ
14:58:43 [sandro]: zakim, who is here?
14:58:43 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FrankMcCabe, Sandro
14:58:44 [Zakim]: On IRC I see mdean, Francois, igor, Harold, FrankMcCabe, AlexKozlenkov, Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisW, sandro, MoZ
14:58:51 [Zakim]: +??P19
14:59:05 [Francois]: zakim, +??P19
14:59:05 [Zakim]: I saw ??P19 just arrive
14:59:08 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
14:59:10 [Hassan]: Hassan has joined #rif
14:59:10 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has joined #rif
14:59:23 [Francois]: zakim, please mute me.
14:59:31 [sandro]: zakim, ??P19 is Francois
14:59:33 [Zakim]: sorry, Francois, I do not see a party named 'Francois'
14:59:39 [Zakim]: +Francois; got it
14:59:49 [Zakim]: +??P11
14:59:51 [Zakim]: +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
14:59:52 [Deborah_Nichols]: Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
14:59:53 [Zakim]: +[NRCC]
14:59:59 [Zakim]: +Mike_Dean
15:00:00 [sandro]: zakim, please mute Francois
15:00:01 [Zakim]: Francois should now be muted
15:00:01 [igor]: zakim, ??P11 is me
15:00:05 [Zakim]: +igor; got it
15:00:16 [igor]: zakim, mute me
15:00:16 [Zakim]: igor should now be muted
15:00:22 [Harold]: zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:00:22 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
15:00:24 [Zakim]: +Peter_PS
15:00:33 [patranja]: patranja has joined #rif
15:00:35 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:00:36 [Zakim]: +Leora_Morgenstern
15:00:37 [Zakim]: +Deborah_Nichols
15:00:45 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, please mute me
15:00:45 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:00:46 [ChrisW]: zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:00:46 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
15:00:53 [johnhall]: johnhall has joined #rif
15:00:58 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is here?
15:00:58 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Francois (muted), igor (muted), Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Mike_Dean, Peter_PS, Deborah_Nichols (muted), ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern
15:01:02 [Zakim]: ... (muted)
15:01:04 [Zakim]: On IRC I see johnhall, patranja, Deborah_Nichols, AxelPolleres, Hassan, LeoraMorgenstern, mdean, Francois, igor, Harold, FrankMcCabe, AlexKozlenkov, Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisW,
15:01:07 [Zakim]: ... sandro, MoZ
15:01:09 [Zakim]: +??P34
15:01:11 [Zakim]: +Axel_Polleres
15:01:25 [MoZ]: Zakim, ? is MoZ
15:01:25 [Zakim]: +MoZ; got it
15:01:25 [Allen]: Allen has joined #rif
15:01:42 [Deborah_Nichols]: hello from the muted
15:01:58 [StellaMitchell]: StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:02:02 [pfps]: pfps has joined #rif
15:02:09 [Zakim]: +[LMU]
15:02:12 [pfps]: zakim, who is on the call
15:02:12 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is on the call', pfps
15:02:24 [Zakim]: +Allen_Ginsberg
15:02:34 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
15:02:34 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:02:54 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:03:02 [StellaMitchell]: zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:03:02 [Zakim]: +StellaMitchell; got it
15:03:20 [pfps]: zakim, who is here?
15:03:20 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Francois (muted), igor (muted), Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Mike_Dean, Peter_PS, Deborah_Nichols (muted), ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern
15:03:23 [Zakim]: ... (muted), MoZ, Axel_Polleres (muted), PaulaP (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), StellaMitchell (muted)
15:03:25 [Zakim]: On IRC I see pfps, StellaMitchell, Allen, johnhall, PaulaP, Deborah_Nichols, AxelPolleres, Hassan, LeoraMorgenstern, mdean, Francois, igor, Harold, FrankMcCabe, AlexKozlenkov,
15:03:27 [Zakim]: ... Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisW, sandro, MoZ
15:04:04 [Zakim]: +??P51
15:04:15 [ChrisW]: allen, can you scribe today?
15:04:38 [sandro]: Allen?
15:04:54 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, ??P51 is me
15:04:54 [Zakim]: +AlexKozlenkov; got it
15:04:54 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, ??P51 is me
15:04:55 [Zakim]: I already had ??P51 as AlexKozlenkov, AlexKozlenkov
15:05:00 [sandro]: zakim, unmute Allen_Ginsberg
15:05:00 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
15:05:54 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, mute me
15:05:54 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
15:06:07 [johnhall]: CAn't get in on phone - have tried 3 times
15:06:15 [ChrisW]: zakim, unmute alex
15:06:15 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted
15:06:22 [sandro]: What happens when you try, John?
15:06:47 [johnhall]: after entering code - silence then cut-off
15:07:24 [ChrisW]: zakimj, unmute leora
15:07:30 [ChrisW]: zakim, unmute leora
15:07:30 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
15:08:31 [SaidTabet]: SaidTabet has joined #RIF
15:08:49 [Zakim]: +??P1
15:08:56 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, mute me
15:08:56 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
15:08:59 [SaidTabet]: zakim, ??P1 is me
15:08:59 [Zakim]: +SaidTabet; got it
15:09:05 [SaidTabet]: zakim, mute me
15:09:05 [Zakim]: SaidTabet should now be muted
15:10:15 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, who is here?
15:10:15 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Francois (muted), igor (muted), Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Mike_Dean, Peter_PS, Deborah_Nichols (muted), ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern,
15:10:17 [ChrisW]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Aug/0022.html
15:10:18 [Zakim]: ... MoZ, Axel_Polleres (muted), PaulaP (muted), Allen_Ginsberg, StellaMitchell (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), SaidTabet (muted)
15:10:20 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:10:21 [Zakim]: On IRC I see SaidTabet, pfps, johnhall, PaulaP, AxelPolleres, Hassan, mdean, Francois, igor, Harold, FrankMcCabe, AlexKozlenkov, Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisW, sandro, MoZ
15:10:43 [StellaMitchell]: StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:10:44 [sandro]: resolved: Minutes from July 18th approved
15:10:49 [JosDeRoo]: JosDeRoo has joined #rif
15:11:02 [LeoraMorgenstern]: I'm in again, and I can scribe
15:11:19 [sandro]: Deferring discussion of Said's minutes, since we only got them yesterday.
15:11:26 [ChrisW]: scribenick: leoramorgenstern
15:11:51 [Zakim]: +??P3
15:12:17 [SaidTabet]: zakim, unmute me
15:12:18 [Zakim]: SaidTabet should no longer be muted
15:12:34 [AxelPolleres]: q+
15:13:12 [AlexKozlenkov]: said must be?
15:13:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Chris: SPARQL liaison (fill in later)
15:13:38 [SaidTabet]: zakim, mute me
15:13:38 [Zakim]: SaidTabet should now be muted
15:14:02 [SaidTabet]: zakim, unmute me
15:14:02 [Zakim]: SaidTabet should no longer be muted
15:14:16 [JeffP]: JeffP has joined #rif
15:14:18 [Deborah_Nichols]: Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:14:27 [SaidTabet]: zakim, mute me
15:14:27 [Zakim]: SaidTabet should now be muted
15:14:52 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Chris: SPARQL is in candidate recommendation.,
15:15:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]: lots of discussion as to whether or not it is good.
15:16:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Sandro: after candidate recommendation, still need proposed recommendation
15:16:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Chris: Any news on SVR? ODM?
15:16:34 [LeoraMorgenstern]: No answers
15:16:49 [johnhall]: SBVR - Donald has established good liaison with ISO terminology groups. He is is Beijing this week at an ISO workshop.
15:17:21 [ChrisW]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/open
15:17:30 [Deborah_Nichols]: chris, there are also open issues related to the UCR
15:17:39 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Moving on to use cases
15:18:35 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Chris: Deborah Nichols has moved all issues with the document into Issues Tracker. This will be our official vehicle for tracking issues
15:19:49 [Deborah_Nichols]: could we look at issues 3, 4, 9-11, and 21
15:20:15 [ChrisW]: zakim, unmute deborah
15:20:15 [Zakim]: Deborah_Nichols should no longer be muted
15:20:31 [ChrisW]: q?
15:20:37 [AxelPolleres]: q-
15:21:55 [ChrisW]: once again, we are here: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/open
15:21:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]: (By the way, half of what I put into IRC isn't showing up, but I am keeping a separate off line copy)
15:22:19 [JeffP]: Sorry for the late, I seem to have problem dailing in
15:22:33 [ChrisW]: ok, thanks
15:23:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]: (I typed that in 5 minutes ago. Nothing is showing up. Will send out off line minutes later.)
15:24:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Deborah Nichols has moved all issues with the document into Issues Tracker
15:24:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Chris: This will be our official vehicle for tracking issues
15:24:48 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Chris: Everyone should be aware of open issues.
15:27:34 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Chris: Start looking at it, be ready to discuss next week
15:29:30 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Allen: Did issues of coverage ever make it into Open Issues?
15:29:48 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:29:48 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Francois (muted), igor (muted), Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Mike_Dean, Peter_PS, Deborah_Nichols, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, MoZ,
15:29:51 [Zakim]: ... Axel_Polleres (muted), PaulaP (muted), Allen_Ginsberg, StellaMitchell (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), SaidTabet (muted), JosDeRoo (muted)
15:30:11 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Deborah: Issues 14 and 16 are related to coverage. Put one sentence into document about OWL-RDF coverage.
15:31:20 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Deborah: Would like to discuss several issues. 9,10, and 11 seem to be directly related to editing of docuemnt. Perhaps Allen and David could take these and just do them.
15:32:21 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Deborah: Issue 3: concerns XML syntax but raises a question. Who was it that raised the question? It needs to be sharpened.
15:32:43 [Zakim]: -SaidTabet
15:33:39 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Deborah: Should it be linked to critical success factor in document?
15:34:07 [johnhall]: Sorry, but with no phone and Zakim on a go-slow, I'm not getting much out of this
15:34:17 [johnhall]: I'll sign off and wait for the minutes
15:34:46 [JosDeRoo]: JosDeRoo has joined #rif
15:34:57 [Hassan]: q+
15:35:18 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is talking?
15:35:29 [Zakim]: ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Peter_PS (14%), FrankMcCabe (21%), ChrisW (88%), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (12%)
15:35:32 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Chris: What were we talking about when we raised this issue?
15:36:16 [Zakim]: + +1.503.317.aaaa
15:36:33 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Sandro: Don't remember any real discussion about this (xml requirement), Everyone thought this was obvious --- a basic requirement.
15:36:52 [ChrisW]: action: hassan to work with Frank to augment type discriminators proposal
15:36:58 [pfps]: zakim, mute me
15:36:58 [Zakim]: sorry, pfps, I do not see a party named 'pfps'
15:37:12 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:37:23 [pfps]: zakim, mute peter_ps
15:37:23 [Zakim]: Peter_PS should now be muted
15:37:30 [Hassan]: q?
15:37:33 [Deborah_Nichols]: Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:37:34 [Hassan]: q-
15:37:41 [Deborah_Nichols]: q-
15:38:14 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:38:41 [AxelPolleres]: Can it be that the IRC problems are only on the web-interface?
15:38:44 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Frank: Big discussion about supporting w3c and supporting take up of the spec.
15:38:53 [AxelPolleres]: ... I don't have any
15:40:07 [ChrisW]: action axel to add wiki page on "types of negation" by Sept
15:41:03 [ChrisW]: action axel to add paula's discriminators to questionnaire
15:41:14 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:41:14 [Zakim]: sorry, MichaelKifer, I do not see a party named 'MichaelKifer'
15:41:19 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is here?
15:41:19 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Francois (muted), igor (muted), Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Mike_Dean, Peter_PS (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), ChrisW,
15:41:22 [Zakim]: ... Leora_Morgenstern, MoZ, Axel_Polleres, PaulaP (muted), Allen_Ginsberg, StellaMitchell (muted), AlexKozlenkov (muted), JosDeRoo (muted), +1.503.317.aaaa, [IPcaller]
15:41:25 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Deborah_Nichols, MichaelKifer, JosDeRoo, JeffP, StellaMitchell, LeoraMorgenstern, pfps, PaulaP, AxelPolleres, Hassan, mdean, Francois, igor, Harold, FrankMcCabe,
15:41:28 [Zakim]: ... AlexKozlenkov, Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisW, sandro, MoZ
15:41:32 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, IPcaller is me
15:41:32 [Zakim]: +MichaelKifer; got it
15:41:36 [Hassan]: q+
15:41:36 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:41:37 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:42:27 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Sandro: this should be taken as an action to answer this question.
15:42:39 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Chris: applies to widespread adoption, perhaps.
15:42:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]: (that is, the XML requirement)
15:42:54 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Action on Frank to address issue 3.
15:43:33 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Deborah: issue #21: What does this mean? Rif isn't going to be translating from XML to XML as part of the spec. RIF representation of XML will be XML.
15:43:49 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, unmute me
15:43:49 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted
15:43:53 [AlexKozlenkov]: q+
15:45:58 [Hassan]: q-
15:47:41 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Chris: That (embedding XML in RIF) is the idea.
15:52:01 [ChrisW]: action: alex to record questionnaire answers for JBoss and XUL in an email
15:52:42 [AlexKozlenkov]: zakim, mute me
15:52:42 [Zakim]: AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
15:53:11 [AxelPolleres]: ACTION: Axel to dump questionaire questions back to RAF wiki page
15:53:30 [AxelPolleres]: ACTION: Axel to include Paula's questions to questionnaire
15:53:33 [PaulaP]: +1
15:53:34 [Hassan]: +1
15:53:35 [Zakim]: -Peter_PS
15:53:38 [AxelPolleres]: +1
15:53:43 [PaulaP]: bye
15:53:43 [Zakim]: -Harold
15:53:44 [Zakim]: -AlexKozlenkov
15:53:46 [Zakim]: -Allen_Ginsberg
15:53:48 [Zakim]: -Sandro
15:53:49 [Zakim]: -StellaMitchell
15:53:50 [Zakim]: -Deborah_Nichols
15:53:50 [PaulaP]: PaulaP has left #rif
15:53:51 [Zakim]: - +1.503.317.aaaa
15:53:53 [Zakim]: -PaulaP
15:53:55 [Zakim]: -igor
15:53:56 [Zakim]: -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:53:59 [Zakim]: -JosDeRoo
15:54:04 [Zakim]: -MoZ
15:54:12 [Zakim]: -Axel_Polleres
15:54:18 [Zakim]: -Francois
15:54:30 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Deborah: Can clear up open issues page to make this clear.
15:54:49 [Zakim]: -Mike_Dean
15:55:01 [Zakim]: -ChrisW
15:55:03 [Zakim]: -Leora_Morgenstern
15:55:11 [Zakim]: -FrankMcCabe
15:55:15 [Zakim]: -MichaelKifer
15:55:16 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
15:55:17 [Zakim]: Attendees were FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Francois, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Mike_Dean, igor, Harold, Peter_PS, Leora_Morgenstern, Deborah_Nichols, ChrisW, Axel_Polleres, MoZ, Allen_Ginsberg,
15:55:20 [Zakim]: ... PaulaP, StellaMitchell, AlexKozlenkov, SaidTabet, JosDeRoo, +1.503.317.aaaa, MichaelKifer
15:55:26 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:55:26 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
15:56:13 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make logs public
15:56:38 [ChrisW]: sandro?
15:56:45 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, list actions
15:56:46 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-rif-actions.rdf :
15:56:46 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: hassan to work with Frank to augment type discriminators proposal [1]
15:56:46 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-rif-irc#T15-36-52
15:56:46 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: alex to record questionnaire answers for JBoss and XUL in an email [2]
15:56:46 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-rif-irc#T15-52-01
15:56:46 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Axel to dump questionaire questions back to RAF wiki page [3]
15:56:46 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-rif-irc#T15-53-11
15:56:46 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Axel to include Paula's questions to questionnaire [4]
15:56:46 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-rif-irc#T15-53-30
15:58:22 [sandro]: ChrisW?
15:58:37 [ChrisW]: can't get to the formatted minutes (permissions)
15:58:52 [sandro]: zakim, make record public
15:58:53 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'make record public', sandro
15:59:34 [sandro]: zakim, make minutes
15:59:34 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'make minutes', sandro
15:59:47 [sandro]: weird
15:59:51 [sandro]: zakim, pointer
15:59:51 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'pointer', sandro
15:59:51 [ChrisW]: rrsagent
15:59:55 [sandro]: right.
16:00:00 [sandro]: RRSAgent, make record public
16:00:06 [sandro]: RRSAgent, pointer?
16:00:06 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-rif-irc#T16-00-06
16:00:22 [sandro]: RRSAgent, make minutes
16:00:22 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:00:42 [sandro]: okay now, ChrisW ?
16:00:43 [ChrisW]: (I did all that before)
16:00:54 [ChrisW]: but it seems to have worked
16:01:07 [ChrisW]: is there a dif between "make logs public" and "make record public"???
16:01:12 [sandro]: I'm sure you did -- but I have a +4 ring of Demo Karma.
16:01:18 [ChrisW]: ah
16:01:22 [ChrisW]: mine is only +2
16:01:46 [sandro]: I'm not sure about "record" vs "logs". Maybe "logs" is only IRC and not also the geenerated minutes.
16:02:06 [ChrisW]: i'll try (to remember to try) that next time
17:51:33 [sandro]: sandro has joined #rif
18:08:22 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rif
19:23:28 [pfps_]: pfps_ has joined #rif