IRC log of dawg on 2006-08-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:11:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:11:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-dawg-irc
14:11:42 [kendallclark]
zakim, this will be DAWG
14:11:42 [Zakim]
ok, kendallclark; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
14:13:27 [SimonR]
Unless we have special knowledge (D-entailment) I don't see that named resources and datatyped literals act differently. Identical names indicate identical references; different names don't prove nonidentity of referents.
14:14:04 [bijan]
Well, identical lexical forms don't indicate indentical references
14:14:17 [bijan]
"001"^^xsd:string, "01"^^xsd:integer
14:14:24 [bijan]
And yes, you need special knowledge
14:14:29 [bijan]
But there is that special knowledge available
14:15:01 [bijan]
Hence my worry that such simplifications complicate the overall picture
14:15:24 [SimonR]
I'm considering the `name' in the case of a datatyped literal to comprise both the lexical form and type IRI.
14:16:03 [bijan]
well,t hat's a bit of an arbitrary choice
14:16:14 [bijan]
Why not the triple of lexical form, type URI and value?
14:16:53 [SimonR]
Well, I see it as a much simpler picture. You have two types of atomic entitiy, and they're differentied by whether or not you can determine inequality of reference by inequality of name.
14:16:59 [bijan]
Plus, I don't see the simplification. We are going to want those dataype theories
14:17:22 [bijan]
So, there's a saying about simplicity
14:17:27 [bijan]
Simple *with respect to what*
14:17:54 [bijan]
So, we can reduce all propositional first order connective to ~ and v or even just the sheffer stroke
14:17:59 [bijan]
And that is way simpler
14:18:02 [bijan]
One truth table!
14:18:10 [bijan]
But the formula are brutal
14:18:18 [bijan]
So you trade one kind of simplicity for another
14:18:37 [bijan]
So, let me just grant that your variant is simpler in some respect
14:18:40 [bijan]
is taht a useful respect?
14:18:44 [bijan]
What does it help us do?
14:18:52 [bijan]
What does it, at least, clarify
14:20:02 [SimonR]
This is how it would be useful -- it's entirely clear to everyone that unicode strings (in Normal Form C, just for pedantry's sake) are equal or different. It's never clear whether any of the four different RDF naming schemes are equal or not. Not *one* of them.
14:20:36 [bijan]
Well, ok, but thus far it gets things wrong, afaict
14:20:44 [bijan]
do bndoes have multiple nodeIDs?
14:20:46 [bijan]
Just one?
14:20:48 [SimonR]
How so?
14:20:58 [bijan]
what affect does it have if two different bndoes have the same nodeID?
14:21:05 [bijan]
effect
14:21:23 [SimonR]
Yes, the same entity might be labeled with different bnode IDs in various serializations.
14:21:33 [bijan]
But you didn't say, "various serializations"
14:21:36 [bijan]
you made it a property of the node
14:21:54 [bijan]
So is relative to a serialization/ Is that encoded in the graph too?
14:21:58 [SimonR]
Right. That property is what you represent the scope with.
14:22:06 [bijan]
How?
14:22:06 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ Convene, comments on agenda, fix scribe, roll call, approve minutes
14:22:06 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
14:22:09 [bijan]
It's very unclear
14:22:31 [kendallclark]
zakim agenda+ track action items
14:22:38 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ track action items
14:22:38 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
14:22:38 [bijan]
"""Because there are only two things in the universe now, existential variables whose equality behavior is consistent (known equal, or not known equal) and the set of unicode strings (known equal, or known different)."""
14:22:42 [SimonR]
If my database invents a new property for each transaction, that quite accurates indicates when it's okay to share bnode IDs and when it isn't.
14:22:48 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ approve new value tests
14:22:48 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
14:22:51 [bijan]
This doesn't handle that differenent URIs with the same denotation
14:22:54 [kendallclark]
zakim, LeeF's review of rq24
14:22:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'LeeF's review of rq24', kendallclark
14:22:55 [SimonR]
accurate+ly
14:22:59 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ LeeF's review of rq24
14:22:59 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
14:23:03 [bijan]
But do these get serialized?
14:23:13 [bijan]
I mean,a re they normal propreties or not?
14:23:21 [bijan]
If so, then you have a bit of regress problem
14:23:30 [bijan]
And I dont' see this is easier than normal lexical approaches
14:23:38 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ datatype and lang tests
14:23:38 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
14:23:51 [bijan]
I mean, my prolbem iwth pat's last email is that it means that RDF *is* quite non-standard
14:24:05 [bijan]
I don't find adding even *more* nonstandardness clarifying
14:24:08 [bijan]
I like reading textbooks :)
14:24:25 [SimonR]
Yes, regress is a problem. I think there has to be at least one distinguised property to break that regress. It should probably be the property that associates the IRI of the named resource with the string of that IRI.
14:25:15 [bijan]
I don't feel the simplicity joy here
14:25:22 [bijan]
I dread the proofs
14:25:51 [bijan]
Well, you can produce the pudding
14:25:55 [bijan]
That contains the proof
14:25:57 [SimonR]
It'd be easier written out.
14:26:02 [bijan]
Rewrite some part of the rdf semantics along these lines
14:26:19 [bijan]
Simple interpretations, for example
14:26:33 [bijan]
heck just do ground graphs
14:26:42 [LeeF]
LeeF has joined #dawg
14:26:44 [bijan]
To start
14:26:50 [AndyS]
Kendall, the URL spliting issue.
14:27:16 [kendallclark]
andy?
14:27:19 [SimonR]
It'd end up as a layer below simple interpretation. Then you'd layer simple interpretation with all RDFs different naming schemes, and then RDF interpretation on top of that.
14:27:31 [AndyS]
If the emails I receive are anything to go by, it might be because the email sent has long lines + "format=flowed"
14:27:57 [AndyS]
The agenda has some long text lines split in strange places. Might be related.
14:28:03 [bijan]
simonr, so, if its' going to simplify, it should simplify those layers
14:28:05 [bijan]
Hack at it!
14:28:17 [kendallclark]
ah, yeah, it's so weird how they split differently this time...
14:28:17 [SimonR]
Shall do. :)
14:28:26 [kendallclark]
and i don't think i have per-header control over Mail.app :(
14:29:04 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:29:04 [AndyS]
Something has changed - they didn't used to get split. Upgrade recently?
14:29:11 [Zakim]
+Elias_Torres
14:29:14 [libby]
libby has joined #dawg
14:29:19 [kendallclark]
no, actually...
14:29:34 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
14:29:36 [LeeF]
zakim, IBMCambridge is me
14:29:36 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:29:55 [Zakim]
+??P26
14:29:58 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P26 is me
14:29:58 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:30:00 [bijan]
Hey, can we put a little time on heartbeat issues/doc status? I take it we're ok becasue we've pubbed *something* yes?
14:31:00 [patH]
patH has joined #dawg
14:31:51 [Zakim]
+PatH
14:32:06 [Zakim]
+??P30
14:32:16 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:32:22 [SimonR]
Zakim, P30 is SimonR
14:32:22 [Zakim]
sorry, SimonR, I do not recognize a party named 'P30'
14:32:39 [SimonR]
Zakim, +??P30 is SimonR
14:32:39 [Zakim]
sorry, SimonR, I do not recognize a party named '+??P30'
14:32:55 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:32:55 [Zakim]
sorry, bijan, I do not see a party named 'bijan'
14:33:24 [bijan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:33:24 [Zakim]
+bijan; got it
14:33:30 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:33:30 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
14:33:54 [SimonR]
Zakim, ??P30 is me
14:33:54 [Zakim]
+SimonR; got it
14:34:01 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:34:02 [Zakim]
+Kendall_Clark
14:34:10 [libby]
zakim, mute me
14:34:10 [Zakim]
sorry, libby, I do not see a party named 'libby'
14:34:12 [Zakim]
+??P32
14:34:26 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:34:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Elias_Torres, LeeF, AndyS, PatH, SimonR, bijan (muted), [IPcaller], Kendall_Clark, ??P32
14:34:27 [libby]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:34:29 [Zakim]
+libby; got it
14:34:36 [libby]
zakim, mute me
14:34:36 [Zakim]
libby should now be muted
14:34:43 [LeeF]
PatH
14:34:49 [Zakim]
-PatH
14:34:59 [patH]
it was me, but Im having cell phone trouyble.
14:35:34 [Zakim]
+PatH
14:35:41 [patH]
thanx.
14:35:45 [kendallclark]
zakim, who's on the phone
14:35:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', kendallclark
14:35:47 [kendallclark]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:35:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Elias_Torres, LeeF, AndyS, SimonR, bijan (muted), libby (muted), Kendall_Clark, ericP, PatH
14:36:01 [kendallclark]
Regrets from FredZ
14:36:09 [LeeF]
Regrets: FredZ, SteveH
14:36:31 [LeeF]
Regrets: FredZ, SteveH, JeenB
14:36:33 [AndyS]
Regrets
14:36:37 [kendallclark]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0117.html
14:36:43 [AndyS]
for next week from me
14:37:28 [kendallclark]
PROPOSED to approve those minutes, 2nd, so resolved
14:37:37 [LeeF]
RESOLVED
14:38:05 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
14:38:05 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
14:38:12 [kendallclark]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* bijan to show that the "strong" version of DISTNCT
14:38:12 [kendallclark]
doesn't interfere with intermittent algebraic operations [recorded in
14:38:13 [kendallclark]
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/15-dawg-minutes.html#action01]
14:38:24 [LeeF]
ACTION: bijan to show that the "strong" version of DISTNCT
14:38:25 [LeeF]
DONE
14:38:36 [kendallclark]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Bijan to describe reduction algorithm [recorded in
14:38:36 [kendallclark]
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/15-dawg-minutes.html#action02]
14:39:08 [LeeF]
zakim, agenda?
14:39:08 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
14:39:10 [Zakim]
1. Convene, comments on agenda, fix scribe, roll call, approve minutes [from kendallclark]
14:39:12 [Zakim]
2. track action items [from kendallclark]
14:39:13 [Zakim]
3. approve new value tests [from kendallclark]
14:39:14 [Zakim]
4. LeeF's review of rq24 [from kendallclark]
14:39:15 [Zakim]
5. datatype and lang tests [from kendallclark]
14:39:38 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up agendum 2
14:39:38 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "track action items" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:40:45 [AndyS]
This one? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0151.html
14:41:15 [LeeF]
ACTION: Bijan to describe reduction algorithm
14:41:16 [LeeF]
DONE
14:41:30 [kendallclark]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* EricP to redraft section 11 to support extensible
14:41:30 [kendallclark]
datatypes [recorded in
14:41:31 [kendallclark]
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-dawg-minutes.html#action08]
14:41:36 [bijan]
Andy, yes
14:41:43 [bijan]
Thx
14:42:04 [kendallclark]
zakim, close agendum 2
14:42:04 [Zakim]
agendum 2, track action items, closed
14:42:05 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:42:06 [Zakim]
1. Convene, comments on agenda, fix scribe, roll call, approve minutes [from kendallclark]
14:42:12 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up agendum 3
14:42:12 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "approve new value tests" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:43:40 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:43:40 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
14:44:32 [ericP]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0117 head of extensibility thread
14:45:16 [ericP]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0112 head of extensibility thread
14:45:27 [SimonR]
Zakim, mute me
14:45:27 [Zakim]
SimonR should now be muted
14:46:28 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
14:46:28 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
14:46:29 [bijan]
q+
14:48:00 [kendallclark]
ack bijan
14:49:18 [kendallclark]
EricP summarizes the monotonicity and datatypes discussion that's ongoing
14:50:03 [LeeF]
ericP: to preserve monotonicity in the face of unknown datatypes, inequality tests involving unknown datatypes should be errors
14:50:47 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:50:47 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
14:51:25 [AndyS]
PatH: can say two things are equal but not conclude two other things are unequal (unknown types).
14:51:25 [kendallclark]
did you hear me, andy?
14:52:13 [ericP]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0167 higher level write-up of trade-offs in dwag:mon
14:52:17 [AndyS]
ACTION AndyS: Write some tests for value testing (unknown types and extensibility) to add to 2006/JulSep0086
14:54:48 [kendallclark]
zakim, close agendum 3
14:54:48 [Zakim]
agendum 3, approve new value tests, closed
14:54:49 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:54:50 [Zakim]
1. Convene, comments on agenda, fix scribe, roll call, approve minutes [from kendallclark]
14:54:58 [kendallclark]
zakim, close agendum 1
14:54:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Convene, comments on agenda, fix scribe, roll call, approve minutes, closed
14:55:01 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:55:03 [Zakim]
4. LeeF's review of rq24 [from kendallclark]
14:55:04 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum
14:55:05 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "LeeF's review of rq24" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:58:36 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
14:58:36 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
14:58:38 [bijan]
q+
14:59:40 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:59:47 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
15:00:07 [kendallclark]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:00:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Elias_Torres, LeeF, AndyS, SimonR (muted), bijan (muted), libby (muted), Kendall_Clark, ericP, PatH
15:00:43 [SimonR]
Zakim, unmute me
15:00:43 [Zakim]
SimonR should no longer be muted
15:01:32 [AndyS]
This is rq23 vs rq24.
15:01:50 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #dawg
15:01:59 [AndyS]
That's less than full review
15:02:49 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=35463 Tucanna is not on the list
15:03:24 [AndyS]
SimonR is not in the DB records.
15:03:27 [kendallclark]
ACTION SimonR: to review rq24
15:03:42 [AndyS]
rq24 is http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24.html
15:03:51 [AndyS]
rq23 is http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/
15:04:29 [kendallclark]
zakim, next agendum?
15:04:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, kendallclark.
15:04:34 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum?
15:04:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, kendallclark.
15:04:36 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum
15:04:36 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "datatype and lang tests" taken up [from kendallclark]
15:06:43 [SimonR]
Zakim, mute me
15:06:43 [Zakim]
SimonR should now be muted
15:06:45 [kendallclark]
it's good for you :
15:06:46 [kendallclark]
)
15:08:29 [AndyS]
example: datatype("plain string")
15:09:10 [AndyS]
c.f. RDF MT rules xsd1a and xsd1b
15:11:01 [kendallclark]
ADJOURNED
15:11:03 [Zakim]
-Elias_Torres
15:11:06 [SimonR]
Zakim, unmute me
15:11:06 [Zakim]
SimonR should no longer be muted
15:11:36 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
15:11:36 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
15:12:05 [kendallclark]
EricP: can you do the pub minutes magic?
15:13:31 [ericP]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:13:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/08/22-dawg-minutes.html ericP
15:13:41 [ericP]
RRSAgent, please make minutes public
15:13:41 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes public', ericP. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:13:42 [kendallclark]
thanks, eric
15:13:57 [ericP]
i've never gotten that last one right
15:14:06 [kendallclark]
yr not the only one :)
15:14:46 [AndyS]
rrsagent, stop logging
15:14:46 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop logging', AndyS. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:15:06 [kendallclark]
rrsagent: piss off!
15:15:06 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'piss off!', kendallclark. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:15:25 [AndyS]
rrsagent, stop