IRC log of htmltf on 2006-08-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:44:39 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #htmltf

12:44:39 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc

12:44:47 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

12:44:52 [Steven]

zakim this will be rdf

12:44:58 [Steven]

zakim, this will be rdf

12:44:58 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes

12:59:08 [benadida]

benadida has joined #htmltf

13:00:21 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started

13:00:28 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

13:00:38 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:00:38 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:00:39 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:03:16 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2006/WD-curie-20060623/

13:08:04 [MarkB_]

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13:09:41 [Zakim]

+Mark_Birbeck

13:11:31 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-forms/2006JulSep/0118.html

13:11:59 [Steven]

Meeting: RDFa Taskforce weekly teleconference

13:12:03 [Steven]

Chair: Ben

13:12:13 [Steven]

Regrets: Elias

13:12:40 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Aug/0003.html

13:13:01 [benadida]

Scribe: benadida

13:14:17 [benadida]

Steven regrets for 3 calls

13:15:55 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben check that the issues list summarizes all the viewpoints on role and class attributes

13:16:02 [benadida]

[done]

13:17:39 [benadida]

Steven: worried that using @CLASS will make some people upset

13:17:48 [benadida]

Ben: maybe if we have a way to include MFs, it will be okay

13:18:04 [benadida]

Steven: CSS people may feel (rightly or wrongly) thta the @CLASS attribute is theirs

13:18:28 [benadida]

... CSS people are the biggest critics of XML namespaces / semantic web

13:19:57 [benadida]

Ben: using namespaced classes might be a problem for CSS folks until they support namespaces

13:20:12 [benadida]

Steven: it depends, the ':' was chosen because it's a valid XML string

13:20:33 [benadida]

... in HTML, if you see something with a colon, it's really that string

13:20:44 [benadida]

... in CSS, you can only escape the ':', cause no concept of namespaces

13:20:51 [benadida]

Ben: what about CSS2?

13:20:54 [benadida]

Mark: yes

13:21:14 [benadida]

Steven: an extension around CSS2 that is de-facto standard

13:21:16 [benadida]

Mark: 2.1

13:21:40 [benadida]

... 2.1 brings extensions of 2.0 together

13:22:25 [benadida]

Steven: actually, it's CSS 3

13:22:25 [Zakim]

+Ralph

13:22:44 [RalphS]

RalphS has joined #htmltf

13:22:52 [benadida]

... the proposal is actually dated 1999

13:22:55 [RalphS]

aplogies; I lost track of the day & time today!

13:23:04 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-namespace/

13:23:04 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-namespace/

13:24:06 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/CR-css3-selectors-20011113/#typenmsp

13:25:34 [benadida]

Mark: it's only the elements and attributes names that are namespaced

13:25:43 [benadida]

Steven: no concept of namespaced attribute value, like in @CLASS

13:25:44 [RalphS]

Steven: CSS does not have a notion of a namespaced attribute value

13:25:51 [RalphS]

scribe: Ralph

13:26:01 [RalphS]

scribenick: ralphs

13:26:22 [RalphS]

Ben: so there's no spec on the table that lets @CLASS names in CSS have namespaces?

13:26:35 [RalphS]

Steven: correct, no namespaced values at all on the table for CSS

13:26:50 [RalphS]

Mark: it could be the case that people have written class names that contain colongs

13:26:53 [RalphS]

s/ongs/ons/

13:27:08 [RalphS]

... so RDFa would create triples in such cases

13:27:22 [RalphS]

... this is fine if it was intended by the author

13:27:42 [RalphS]

... but if it was used pre-RDFa, the author may not have intended it

13:28:52 [RalphS]

Mark: we need to start with what we think is right and persuade others

13:29:10 [RalphS]

Ben: they're saying the class attribute is a type

13:29:31 [RalphS]

... and as we're on the Web we want these to have namespaced values

13:30:18 [MarkB_]

(Mark is agreeing with Ben's earlier, rather forthright, point, that we should begin with what we think is right for "the web, XHTML, authors and RDF".)

13:31:06 [RalphS]

Ben: I hear Steven worried about the potential backlash from others, not about the technical correctness

13:31:34 [RalphS]

Steven: I see advantages and disadvantages. I'd rather not irritate people

13:32:24 [RalphS]

Mark: but if we don't do namespaced values in class, we will irritate others who do think they've done the right thing [with namespaces]

13:32:50 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Aug/0003.html

13:33:10 [RalphS]

Previous: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Aug/0001.html

13:33:26 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

13:33:28 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:33:42 [RalphS]

Ben: it's important to have a validation story

13:33:48 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

13:33:49 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:33:54 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]

13:33:56 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:34:01 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action01]

13:34:04 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:34:08 [RalphS]

Ben: I've made some progress on this

13:34:14 [benadida]

beginning of hGRDDL for XHTML1:

13:34:15 [benadida]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-08-08-hgrddl-xhtml1

13:34:16 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]

13:34:18 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:34:48 [RalphS]

Ben: in progress; feel free to track hgrddl-xhtml1

13:35:20 [RalphS]

... the nice thing about the DOM implementations are that some browers will fixup non-wellformed XHTML so that we may still be able to use it

13:35:30 [RalphS]

ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

13:35:59 [RalphS]

-- done

13:36:23 [RalphS]

ACTION: All TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

13:36:28 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2006/WD-curie-20060623/

13:36:44 [RalphS]

Topic: Status review of CURIEs

13:36:53 [RalphS]

(member-only URI)

13:37:09 [RalphS]

Steven: currently in discussion in HTML WG

13:37:17 [RalphS]

... the shortname is not yet approved

13:37:52 [RalphS]

... Shane produced this editors' draft along with Mark

13:37:59 [RalphS]

... we need to decide whether to keep pushing this

13:38:25 [RalphS]

[argh, this editors' draft claims to be a Working Draft]

13:38:36 [RalphS]

Ben: should we reserve something for the anonymous namespace?

13:39:00 [RalphS]

... something for bnodes; unexported names

13:39:40 [RalphS]

Mark: maybe there's something in N3 we could borrow for section 3?

13:41:08 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/03/28-editor-style.html Style for Group-internal Drafts

13:41:54 [RalphS]

q+ to ask where MarkUp/Group/2006/WD-curie-20060623 lies in the HTMLWG agenda

13:42:26 [RalphS]

Steven: the HTML WG shouldn't publish this draft until the RDF-in-XHTML task force agrees it's a good idea

13:43:00 [RalphS]

ack me

13:43:00 [Zakim]

RalphS, you wanted to ask where MarkUp/Group/2006/WD-curie-20060623 lies in the HTMLWG agenda

13:43:07 [RalphS]

Steven: There are no objections within the HTML WG

13:43:30 [RalphS]

... Mark, I, and one other are the primary parties with RDF interest

13:44:07 [RalphS]

Ralph: are CURIEs a solution for anything else the HTML WG is dealing with, or are they viewed as only a solution for RDFa?

13:44:12 [RalphS]

Steven: more the latter

13:44:32 [RalphS]

Mark: though CURIEs could also solve problems with RDF/XML, namely that QNames can't express all URIs

13:45:22 [RalphS]

Ralph: it will be a heavy debate but I would like to see the discussion continue

13:46:06 [RalphS]

Ben: the CURIE syntax may need more work but at the end of the day it is solving an important issue

13:46:21 [RalphS]

... I'd like to move forward with it while we're in the proposal stage

13:46:35 [RalphS]

... solves bnodes, solves URIs that can't be done with QNames

13:46:50 [RalphS]

... square bracket notation is familiar to some people

13:47:22 [RalphS]

... in 80% of the cases, CURIEs can be treated just like QNames

13:47:49 [RalphS]

Mark: even if CURIEs were defined to be equal to QNames, it would be better to have that level of indirection so you can explain all the restrictions

13:48:11 [RalphS]

Ben: we do have code that implements CURIE parsing and it seems to work

13:52:26 [RalphS]

Steven: HTML WG has a face-to-face scheduled for 11 Sep. Could plan to publish CURIE WD shortly after that f2f

13:52:48 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark add words about anonymous nodes to CURIE editors' draft

13:53:25 [RalphS]

Topic: hGRDDL profile

13:53:25 [benadida]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-08-08-hgrddl-xhtml1

13:54:18 [RalphS]

Ralph: please claim authorship for hgrddl-xhtml1 :)

13:55:01 [RalphS]

Ben: this is a nice place to build in some default behavior that is not appropriate to put into XHTML or RDFa

13:55:23 [RalphS]

... e.g. rel='next' is transformed to rel='xhtml:next'

13:56:00 [RalphS]

... I also included an example using the class= attribute

13:56:21 [RalphS]

... I'm hoping to get informed feedback from people by showing these examples

13:56:42 [RalphS]

Mark: says "would become" -- actually, the class= attribute is removed

13:56:49 [RalphS]

... seems you'd want to show the N3 next

13:57:18 [RalphS]

Ben: perhaps "has the transform"; what we want to see is people commenting on the transform

13:58:25 [RalphS]

... I'm suggesting that the decisions we make for class= and role= are part of the hgrddl-xhtml profile

13:59:05 [RalphS]

Mark: I've been thinking of class= as analogous to the N3 syntax "<> a Foo".

13:59:25 [RalphS]

... though SVG does also use class=

14:00:01 [RalphS]

Ben: GRDDL WG has its initial meeting tomorrow

14:00:27 [RalphS]

... I plan to continue working on this profile and write some code, to use as a basis for discussion

14:00:41 [RalphS]

Mark: is it worth putting a real example in?

14:00:45 [RalphS]

Ben: yes, absolutely

14:00:54 [RalphS]

Mark: such as a vCard

14:01:19 [RalphS]

Steven: we need to answer Dan's comment about following your nose

14:01:29 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben answer Dan's follow-your-nose comment

14:01:45 [RalphS]

Steven: may require me to make some edits to the XHTML namespace document as well

14:01:52 [RalphS]

Ben: I will mention that in my response

14:01:56 [RalphS]

[adjourned]

14:01:57 [Zakim]

-Mark_Birbeck

14:01:59 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:04:58 [Zakim]

-Ralph

14:05:00 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

14:05:01 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended

14:05:02 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ben_Adida, Steven, Mark_Birbeck, Ralph

14:05:06 [benadida]

benadida has left #htmltf

14:05:54 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

14:05:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS

14:51:17 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

14:51:17 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #htmltf

14:51:21 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-actions.rdf :

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben check that the issues list summarizes all the viewpoints on role and class attributes [1]

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-15-55

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [2]

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-33-26

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [3]

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-33-48

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] [4]

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-33-54

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action01] [5]

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-34-01

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [6]

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-34-16

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [7]

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-35-30

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: All TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [8]

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-36-23

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark add words about anonymous nodes to CURIE editors' draft [9]

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T13-52-48

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben answer Dan's follow-your-nose comment [10]

14:51:21 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/08-htmltf-irc#T14-01-29