IRC log of rif on 2006-08-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:51 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:53:52 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:54:01 [sandro]
rrsagent, pointer?
14:54:01 [RRSAgent]
14:54:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rif
14:55:28 [sandro]
zakim, this will be rif
14:55:28 [Zakim]
ok, sandro; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:41 [sandro]
Chair: SandroHawke
14:55:46 [sandro]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:55:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
14:55:56 [sandro]
rrsagent, make record public
14:56:10 [sandro]
sandro has changed the topic to:
14:56:41 [sandro]
zakim, who is here?
14:56:42 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has not yet started, sandro
14:56:44 [AlexKozlenkov]
AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif
14:56:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, sandro, mdean, DavidHirtle, Harold
14:57:04 [FrankMcCabe]
FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
14:58:10 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:58:17 [igor]
igor has joined #rif
14:58:18 [Zakim]
14:59:42 [FrankMcCabe]
zakim, what is the code?
14:59:42 [Zakim]
the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), FrankMcCabe
15:00:22 [Deborah_Nichols]
Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:00:36 [Zakim]
15:00:47 [JeffP]
JeffP has joined #rif
15:00:50 [Zakim]
15:00:55 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:01:02 [Harold]
zakim, +[NRCC] is me
15:01:02 [Zakim]
sorry, Harold, I do not recognize a party named '+[NRCC]'
15:01:04 [Zakim]
15:01:06 [sandro]
Deborah_Nichols, are you available to Scribe? I think it's your turn (of the people likely to be here today).
15:01:11 [Zakim]
15:01:13 [AlexKozlenkov]
zakim, ??p17 is me
15:01:13 [Zakim]
+AlexKozlenkov; got it
15:01:16 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:01:16 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:01:19 [AlexKozlenkov]
zakim, mute me
15:01:19 [Zakim]
AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
15:01:30 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.857.aaaa
15:01:34 [Zakim]
15:01:39 [Donald_Chapin]
Donald_Chapin has joined #rif
15:01:45 [FrankMcCabe]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:01:45 [Zakim]
+FrankMcCabe; got it
15:01:46 [igor]
zakim, ??P12 is me
15:01:46 [Zakim]
+igor; got it
15:01:54 [igor]
zakim, mute me
15:01:54 [Zakim]
igor should now be muted
15:01:54 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:02:12 [johnhall]
johnhall has joined #rif
15:02:24 [AlexKozlenkov]
AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif
15:02:38 [Zakim]
15:02:39 [sandro]
Scribe: Deborah_Nichols
15:02:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, mute me
15:02:47 [Zakim]
Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:03:04 [Zakim]
15:03:24 [PhilippeB]
PhilippeB has joined #rif
15:03:24 [Uta]
Uta has joined #rif
15:03:36 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:03:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
15:03:55 [Zakim]
15:04:04 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:04:04 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:18 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
15:04:40 [FrankMcCabe]
zakim mute me
15:04:42 [Zakim]
15:04:51 [FrankMcCabe]
zakim, mute me
15:04:51 [Zakim]
FrankMcCabe should now be muted
15:04:51 [johnhall]
Zakim, IPcaller is me
15:04:53 [Zakim]
+johnhall; got it
15:05:10 [johnhall]
Zakim, mute me
15:05:10 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
15:05:12 [Zakim]
15:05:18 [Zakim]
+Donald_Chapin (was [IPcaller])
15:05:37 [Donald_Chapin]
zakim, mute me
15:05:37 [Zakim]
Donald_Chapin should now be muted
15:06:24 [Zakim]
15:06:26 [Zakim]
15:06:35 [Donald_Chapin]
Do I need to do anything?
15:06:47 [Donald_Chapin]
15:06:50 [sandro]
zakim, who is here?
15:06:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, Harold, David_Hirtle, AlexKozlenkov (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), FrankMcCabe (muted), igor (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), Jeff_Pan,
15:06:53 [Zakim]
... StellaMitchell (muted), johnhall (muted), Donald_Chapin (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Gary_Hallmark
15:06:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Hassan, Uta, AlexKozlenkov, johnhall, StellaMitchell, Donald_Chapin, LeoraMorgenstern, JeffP, Deborah_Nichols, igor, FrankMcCabe, Zakim, RRSAgent, sandro, mdean,
15:07:01 [Zakim]
... DavidHirtle, Harold
15:07:13 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:07:26 [Deborah_Nichols]
ScribeNick: dnichols
15:08:01 [PhilippeB]
PhilippeB has joined #rif
15:08:06 [johnhall]
Sorry, completely forgot
15:08:16 [johnhall]
Will do it right after this meetin
15:08:20 [Deborah_Nichols]
Meeting: RIF WG Weekly Teleconference 08012006
15:08:27 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Sandro Hawke
15:08:28 [sandro]
need regrets added
15:08:34 [Zakim]
15:08:43 [Deborah_Nichols]
Topic: Approval of minutes
15:08:45 [igor]
15:09:10 [sandro]
resolved: minutes of 7/18 approved once regrets section added
15:09:15 [Deborah_Nichols]
Minutes are approved with regrets section to be added
15:10:24 [Deborah_Nichols]
Please post regrets if you're not going to attend Aug. 15 telecon.
15:10:25 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:10:37 [sandro]
sandro: shall we talk about Michael's semantics proposal at all today?
15:11:07 [Deborah_Nichols]
Topic: Michael Kifer's semantics proposal. Postponed.
15:11:31 [Zakim]
15:11:34 [Zakim]
+Philippe_Bonnard (was ??P49)
15:11:37 [PhilippeB]
Zakim, mute me
15:11:37 [Zakim]
Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted
15:11:49 [sandro]
15:11:58 [Deborah_Nichols]
Topic: Use cases
15:12:00 [sandro]
action 58, sandro, not done
15:12:07 [Deborah_Nichols]
Action 58 (Sandro) - Continued
15:12:19 [sandro]
15:12:21 [sandro]
15:12:26 [AlexKozlenkov]
zakim, unmute me
15:12:26 [Zakim]
AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted
15:13:35 [Deborah_Nichols]
Topic: Alex's action to contact vendors to request feedback
15:13:47 [sandro]
15:14:24 [JosDeRoo]
JosDeRoo has joined #rif
15:14:32 [Deborah_Nichols]
Alex has been in contact with JBoss personnel and is awaiting feedback. They will participate.
15:14:44 [sandro]
15:14:46 [Deborah_Nichols]
15:15:07 [Deborah_Nichols]
Action 69 - Continued
15:15:16 [Zakim]
15:15:43 [sandro]
Action 68 - Partial as well.
15:15:51 [AlexKozlenkov]
zakim, mute me
15:15:51 [Zakim]
AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
15:15:56 [Deborah_Nichols]
Action 68 (Alex) - partially fulfilled, continued
15:16:24 [sandro]
15:16:26 [Donald_Chapin]
still open
15:16:51 [Deborah_Nichols]
Action 72 - UCR working draft issues - Continued (Don Chapin)
15:17:03 [Deborah_Nichols]
Topic: RIFRAF Questionnaire
15:17:26 [Zakim]
15:17:38 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, IPcaller is me
15:17:38 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer; got it
15:17:44 [Deborah_Nichols]
Harold: Question about the tracker. His action item # 64 was completed but not marked as Closed.
15:17:49 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:17:49 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:18:09 [Harold]
Action 64 is closed:
15:18:17 [Deborah_Nichols]
Sandro: In general, the Chairs try to update status, but Harold can do it.
15:18:26 [Deborah_Nichols]
Sandro has now closed Action 64.
15:18:41 [sandro]
15:19:09 [FrankMcCabe]
zakim, unmute me
15:19:09 [Zakim]
FrankMcCabe should no longer be muted
15:19:15 [SaidTabet]
SaidTabet has joined #RIF
15:19:23 [sandro]
15:19:24 [sandro]
15:19:28 [Deborah_Nichols]
Actions on RIFRAF: Action 79 is continued
15:19:36 [FrankMcCabe]
zakim, mute me
15:19:36 [Zakim]
FrankMcCabe should now be muted
15:20:13 [Deborah_Nichols]
Other actions are Axel's; he is not in attendance today.
15:20:32 [sandro]
Topic: changes in 3.1 (decidability)
15:20:37 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair asks for any additional comments on RIFRAF
15:20:48 [sandro]
no comments from anybodyu
15:21:01 [sandro]
Topic: requirements moved to RIFRAF
15:21:25 [sandro]
no comments from anybody
15:21:27 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: any comments on Paula's email, or other proposals?
15:21:38 [sandro]
Topic: Some new discriminators for RIFRAF
15:21:41 [sandro]
no comments from anybody
15:21:51 [Hassan]
15:21:56 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: any comments on new discriminators for RIFRAF?
15:22:02 [sandro]
ack Harold
15:22:07 [sandro]
ack Hassan
15:22:37 [sandro]
Hassan: also e-mail from csma yesterday
15:22:39 [Deborah_Nichols]
Hassan: Christian sent an email on discriminators.
15:23:19 [Deborah_Nichols]
Hassan: Agrees with Gary that the notion is confused, depending on what is considered to be a rule...
15:24:04 [Deborah_Nichols]
Hassan: Christian proposed some things to clarify, and Hassan is not sure he understands all csma's points....
15:24:27 [Deborah_Nichols]
Hassan: However, does agree with csma's point that we not use the terms 'body' and 'head'...
15:25:24 [Deborah_Nichols]
Hassan: because the terms 'body' and 'head' are not used consistently across the rules community sub-groups.
15:25:51 [Deborah_Nichols]
Hassan: Understands the need for a "clean" vocabulary about rules.
15:26:09 [Harold]
15:26:12 [Deborah_Nichols]
Hassan: Is willing to work with csma to come up with a proposal.
15:26:41 [sandro]
ACTION Hassan: write response to Christian's proposal, asking for clarifications where necessary
15:26:43 [Deborah_Nichols]
Action to Hassan to work with csma on rule vocabulary terms.
15:27:34 [AlexKozlenkov]
how many submissions so far?
15:27:37 [Deborah_Nichols]
Harold: will post link to prior discussion on terminology
15:27:47 [sandro]
15:27:47 [Deborah_Nichols]
Topic: RIFRAF Questionnaire
15:27:48 [Harold]
15:28:15 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: So far there have been 3 responses....
15:28:21 [Harold]
Section "Mapping between deductive rule and reactive rule terminology"
15:28:39 [FrankMcCabe]
zakim, unmute me
15:28:39 [Zakim]
FrankMcCabe should no longer be muted
15:28:43 [Donald_Chapin]
zakim, unmute me
15:28:43 [Zakim]
Donald_Chapin should no longer be muted
15:28:45 [Zakim]
15:28:46 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:28:47 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:28:55 [sandro]
15:29:00 [johnhall]
Donald and I didn't have time to turn the questionnaire with colleagues on our team
15:29:20 [johnhall]
Zakim, umnute me
15:29:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'umnute me', johnhall
15:29:38 [Zakim]
15:29:42 [johnhall]
Zakim, unmute me
15:29:42 [Zakim]
johnhall should no longer be muted
15:29:47 [sandro]
Sandro: n3, prolog -- hopefully soon
15:30:02 [sandro]
Harold: oo-jdew
15:30:09 [sandro]
Harold: oo-jdrew
15:30:11 [DavidHirtle]
OO jDREW generally
15:30:29 [sandro]
Harold: using the table.
15:30:40 [AlexKozlenkov]
what about other people's systems?
15:30:48 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Polling attendees about their participation in the Questionnaire
15:31:19 [Deborah_Nichols]
Alex: [what was the upshot?]
15:31:21 [Harold]
This ("Mapping between deductive rule and reactive rule terminology") was basically done by Gary (I mostly assisted), and should now again be relevant for Christian and Hassan.
15:31:28 [AlexKozlenkov]
zakim, unmute me
15:31:28 [Zakim]
AlexKozlenkov should no longer be muted
15:32:07 [Deborah_Nichols]
Alex has already submitted for Prova language.
15:32:27 [Deborah_Nichols]
David Hirtle: No plans to submit.
15:32:30 [AlexKozlenkov]
zakim, mute me
15:32:30 [Zakim]
AlexKozlenkov should now be muted
15:33:55 [Deborah_Nichols]
Deborah: Will propose to MSR team doing it for SWRL
15:34:10 [Deborah_Nichols]
Michael: Peter is also working on SWRL.
15:34:27 [sandro]
Frank: planing to do GO -- typed
15:34:27 [MalaMehrotra]
MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
15:34:28 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Will be fine to have two views of SWRL,
15:34:34 [mdean]
15:34:38 [Deborah_Nichols]
Frank: Will do it for GO language
15:34:42 [igor]
zakim, unmute me
15:34:42 [Zakim]
igor should no longer be muted
15:35:12 [igor]
I have no plans for another language
15:35:27 [Deborah_Nichols]
Igor: No plans for another language. Already did Prolog.
15:35:30 [igor]
zakim, mute me
15:35:30 [Zakim]
igor should now be muted
15:35:55 [sandro]
JeffP - CIF -- planned -- need to talk to some people on holiday
15:35:57 [Zakim]
15:36:09 [Deborah_Nichols]
JeffP plans to cover CIF
15:36:37 [sandro]
John: want to do SBVR -- with help from Terry Halpin
15:36:42 [Deborah_Nichols]
John Hall: Is there a new deadline, since the cutoff was yesterday?
15:36:48 [sandro]
Don: have changes from last week been made
15:37:13 [sandro]
Don: Looking for deadline.
15:37:14 [Deborah_Nichols]
John Hall: Is interested in doing SBVR with help from Terry Halpin
15:37:34 [johnhall]
\akim, mute me
15:37:42 [johnhall]
zakim, mute me
15:37:42 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
15:37:42 [FrankMcCabe]
zakim, mute me
15:37:43 [Zakim]
FrankMcCabe should now be muted
15:37:48 [sandro]
StellaMitchell: working with internal ECA language
15:38:01 [Deborah_Nichols]
Stella: Currently working with an event-condition-action language that is an internal IBM language, not a product
15:38:28 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: suggests looking at Paula's discriminators to see if they make sense for Stella's ECA work
15:38:33 [sandro]
Sandro: look at Paula's suggested descriminitators
15:38:59 [sandro]
Hassan: I did this for LIFE and Ilog's products before -- need to put it on Questionnaire
15:39:13 [Deborah_Nichols]
Hassan: Haven't done the questionnaire but provided descriptions early on for Ilog and LIFE.
15:39:17 [AlexKozlenkov]
A reminder of a link to Paula's descriminators?
15:39:34 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Hassan please transfer his earlier work to the Questionnaire page.
15:39:38 [sandro]
Gary: I'll do it for Jess or Oracles's lang -- but I want to wait for Paula's work to be in questionnaire
15:40:12 [Deborah_Nichols]
Gary: Would like to incorporate Paula's work in the questionnaire before doing his work on Jess or on Oracle's language.
15:40:25 [johnhall]
15:40:26 [AlexKozlenkov]
Where are they linked, please?
15:40:30 [Deborah_Nichols]
Proposed: Add Paula's discriminators to the Questionnaire.
15:40:39 [sandro]
15:40:46 [AlexKozlenkov]
Thanks a lot
15:40:51 [sandro]
Gary and Hasson: proposing that be added
15:41:27 [AlexKozlenkov]
Sounds reasonable
15:41:42 [Donald_Chapin]
zakim, mute me
15:41:42 [Zakim]
Donald_Chapin should now be muted
15:41:43 [FrankMcCabe]
15:41:48 [FrankMcCabe]
15:41:50 [AlexKozlenkov]
Just now skimming through
15:42:46 [sandro]
Gary: there's a lot of talk about events, but it's better aligned to PR terminology
15:43:03 [Deborah_Nichols]
Gary: There's a lot in Paula's discriminators about events that doesn't occur in production rule; nonetheless it's better aligned to PR than the deduction-oriented questions.
15:43:09 [AlexKozlenkov]
15:43:39 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Seems to be agreement among attendees to add these questions but may not have a quorum to decide the question.
15:43:55 [Harold]
The questionnaire should be filled out for all/most of the languages/systems "Rule Systems" page (
15:43:55 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Note general support; we will conclude the question by email.
15:43:56 [AlexKozlenkov]
15:44:30 [AlexKozlenkov]
15:44:35 [Deborah_Nichols]
Harold: Has posted a link to the list of all rule systems that was generated previously....
15:44:39 [SaidTabet]
Events are a whole area currently explored and known in the industry as 'Event Streaming' or 'Complex Events Processing', there was a workshop on the topic earlier this year and the topics of ECA rules came up...Will post the URL later
15:44:50 [Deborah_Nichols]
Harold: Recommends that the Questionnaire be filled out for each of those languages.
15:45:00 [MalaMehrotra]
MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
15:45:14 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Create a link from the Questionnaire to the List of Rule Systems and track that each is done.
15:45:21 [AlexKozlenkov]
15:45:25 [sandro]
Mike_Dean: I'd be happy to review the entries for SWRL
15:45:39 [Deborah_Nichols]
Mike Dean: Volunteers to review the SWRL entries....
15:45:45 [sandro]
Sandro: would you be willing to do N3?
15:45:52 [sandro]
Mike: I'll review yours!
15:46:02 [Deborah_Nichols]
Mike Dean: asked by the chair to do N3, would prefer to review the chair's.
15:46:24 [sandro]
Zakim, unmute PhilippeB
15:46:24 [Zakim]
Philippe_Bonnard should no longer be muted
15:47:08 [Deborah_Nichols]
Philippe: Not committed at the moment to doing the Questionnaire.
15:47:19 [sandro]
PhilippeB: might do jrules
15:47:38 [sandro]
... But want to discuss with csma and hak before committing
15:47:38 [Deborah_Nichols]
Philippe: But would like to apply the questionnaire on JRules and NC sharp, ...
15:47:55 [Deborah_Nichols]
But before committing would like to discuss with csma.
15:48:12 [Deborah_Nichols]
Jos: It's on his to-do stack to do N3.
15:48:17 [PhilippeB]
Zakim, mute me
15:48:17 [Zakim]
Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted
15:48:18 [sandro]
JosDeRoo: euler/n3 - in the coming weeks.
15:48:23 [Deborah_Nichols]
Jos: Would be sometime in the coming week.
15:49:11 [Deborah_Nichols]
Michael Kifer: Is not planning to do an additional language.
15:50:07 [Deborah_Nichols]
Leora: Plans to do another internal IBM language (called "ESN" internally but not really named). Not before next Friday.
15:50:14 [sandro]
LeoraMorgenstern: an internal language, subset of FOL, by a week from friday
15:50:53 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, please mute me
15:50:53 [Zakim]
Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:51:03 [Deborah_Nichols]
Mala: Will touch base with Leora and then make a commitment.
15:51:07 [johnhall]
zakim, unmute me
15:51:07 [Zakim]
johnhall should no longer be muted
15:51:30 [sandro]
johnhall, for Said: for RuleML.
15:51:37 [Deborah_Nichols]
John Hall: Said plans to do the Questionnaire for RuleML.
15:51:38 [johnhall]
zakim, mute me
15:51:38 [Zakim]
johnhall should now be muted
15:52:02 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: That concludes the Questionnaire round-robin.
15:53:04 [Deborah_Nichols]
Harold: Action (# ??) - please change the due date to one week from today; it was too tight.
15:53:15 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Updates Harold's action due date.
15:53:56 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Continue Hassan's action for mapping condition language, to be due next week.
15:54:37 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Michael posted his action result this morning. Closed.
15:54:46 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Paul not here.
15:54:56 [Deborah_Nichols]
s Paula/Paul
15:55:09 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: Sandro's items also continued.
15:55:12 [Zakim]
15:55:13 [Zakim]
15:55:15 [FrankMcCabe]
see you...
15:55:15 [Zakim]
15:55:16 [Zakim]
15:55:19 [Deborah_Nichols]
Chair: now adjourned.
15:55:20 [Zakim]
15:55:22 [Zakim]
15:55:23 [Zakim]
15:55:25 [Zakim]
15:55:26 [Zakim]
15:55:27 [Zakim]
15:55:29 [Zakim]
15:55:31 [Zakim]
15:55:35 [Zakim]
15:55:37 [Zakim]
15:55:37 [Hassan]
15:55:39 [Zakim]
15:55:41 [Zakim]
15:55:45 [Zakim]
15:55:57 [sandro]
zakim, who is here?
15:55:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, Deborah_Nichols
15:55:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MalaMehrotra, SaidTabet, JosDeRoo, Uta, AlexKozlenkov, LeoraMorgenstern, JeffP, Deborah_Nichols, FrankMcCabe, Zakim, RRSAgent, sandro, mdean, Harold
15:56:05 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:56:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
15:57:14 [sandro]
15:58:45 [sandro]
15:59:08 [SaidTabet]
Bye everyone
16:09:12 [sandro]
scribenick: Deborah_Nichols
16:09:15 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:09:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
16:10:20 [sandro]
scribe: Deborah_Nichols
16:10:25 [sandro]
scribenick: Deborah_Nichols
16:10:37 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:10:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
16:11:21 [sandro]
16:11:25 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:11:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
16:13:07 [Zakim]
16:13:09 [Zakim]
16:13:10 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:13:11 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sandro, David_Hirtle, Deborah_Nichols, AlexKozlenkov, Harold, +1.650.857.aaaa, FrankMcCabe, igor, Leora_Morgenstern, Jeff_Pan, StellaMitchell, johnhall,
16:13:14 [Zakim]
... Donald_Chapin, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Gary_Hallmark, Mike_Dean, Philippe_Bonnard, Jos_De_Roo, MichaelKifer, Mala_Mehrotra
18:20:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rif