IRC log of htmltf on 2006-08-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:59:52 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
12:59:53 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-irc
13:00:42 [RalphS]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jul/0008.html
13:00:59 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #htmltf
13:01:35 [RalphS]
Previous: 2006-07-18 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jul/0006.html
13:01:38 [benadida]
benadida has joined #htmltf
13:01:43 [benadida]
zakim, call me
13:01:44 [Zakim]
Sorry, benadida; you need to be more specific about your location
13:01:55 [Steven]
ben is on irc after all!
13:02:00 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
13:02:02 [benadida]
indeed, explanations coming soon
13:02:07 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
13:02:13 [EliasT]
Zakim, IBMCambridge is me
13:02:13 [Zakim]
+EliasT; got it
13:02:14 [MarkB_]
MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
13:02:23 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
13:02:23 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:02:24 [Zakim]
+Steven
13:02:38 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida
13:02:47 [Zakim]
+Ralph
13:03:17 [Zakim]
+??P6
13:03:22 [MarkB_]
zakim, i am ?
13:03:22 [Zakim]
+MarkB_; got it
13:04:28 [RalphS]
agenda+ Action Items Review
13:04:37 [RalphS]
agenda+ XHTML2: New Working Draft
13:04:46 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben fix content negotiation on his current personal Web hosting site to make http://ben.adida.net/card (w/o ".html") work again [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action07]
13:04:58 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action01]
13:05:00 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:05:08 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]
13:05:11 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:05:28 [RalphS]
Ben: I need to reconcile those two and figure out what we're going to resolve this Fall
13:05:33 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
13:05:43 [RalphS]
Ben: just about to press the 'send' button
13:06:23 [RalphS]
... Bjoern's resignation from validator work will unfortunately make this message appear to be something of a response to Bjoern's mail to W3C
13:06:38 [RalphS]
Ben: I have a sentence referring to Bjoern's "resignation" message
13:06:45 [RalphS]
Ralph: strike that bit
13:07:16 [RalphS]
agenda+ QNames in Attributes
13:07:24 [RalphS]
agenda+ CURIEs
13:07:42 [RalphS]
agenda+ XHTML1.1: status of the module and what we can do to begin validating
13:11:01 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Aug/0000.html Ben's reply to Bjoern's 18-month-old message
13:12:29 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
13:12:31 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:13:00 [RalphS]
Ben: Harry Halpin and Dan Connolly have asked me as Creative Commons representative to join the GRDDL WG and I have agreed to do so
13:13:19 [RalphS]
... so I'm hoping that the hGRDDL work will be done jointly with GRDDL WG and become part of the GRDDL spec
13:13:55 [RalphS]
... so it's pretty high priority for me to get an hGRDDL profile completed
13:13:59 [RalphS]
... including a transform
13:14:26 [RalphS]
... proposal so far is to have a profile URI that specifies a transform whose output is HTML with RDFa
13:14:33 [RalphS]
s/with RDFa//
13:14:45 [RalphS]
... the transform will not be specifically tied to RDFa
13:15:12 [RalphS]
Elias: people were asking DanC whether GRDDL could be used to output other content-types than RDF
13:15:24 [RalphS]
... Dan asked for official requirements to be submitted
13:16:08 [EliasT]
... http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2006-07-31.html#T20-54-48
13:16:09 [RalphS]
Ben: were people asking about other RDF serializations such as N3?
13:16:11 [RalphS]
Elias: yes
13:17:47 [RalphS]
Ben: GRDDL WG may start in the next couple of weeks
13:21:54 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
13:21:55 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:22:18 [RalphS]
ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:23:00 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:23:05 [RalphS]
move to next agendum
13:23:05 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action Items Review" taken up [from RalphS]
13:23:09 [RalphS]
close agendum 1
13:23:10 [RalphS]
move to next agendum
13:23:12 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "XHTML2: New Working Draft" taken up [from RalphS]
13:23:36 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml2-20060726/mod-metaAttributes.html#sec_24.2.
13:23:39 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml2-20060726/ XHTML 2.0
13:24:06 [RalphS]
Steven: section 24.2 defines the actual relationship with RDF
13:24:27 [RalphS]
... XHTML2 only comes in a "strict" version
13:24:39 [RalphS]
... there is a separate specification for frames with a different media type
13:24:55 [RalphS]
... all the "transitional" stuff is gone, though some has been moved into the core
13:25:52 [RalphS]
Ralph: I'm impressed that all of RDFa fits on half a screen!
13:26:21 [RalphS]
... I've only skimmed it and want to compare it thoroughly with our other RDFa detals
13:26:52 [RalphS]
Steven: the XHTML2 specification document is not intended to contain tutorial material; tutorials are expected to be in separate documents
13:27:25 [RalphS]
... in the case of XHTML4 spec it was hard to identify where normative specification ended and tutorial examples started
13:27:36 [RalphS]
Ben: do CURIEs appear in the current draft?
13:27:51 [RalphS]
Steven: no, we're using QNAMEs in content still as we haven't resolved the CURIE question
13:28:52 [RalphS]
... the 26 July XHTML2 WD is not Last Call but we think we're very close to publishing a Last Call draft
13:28:59 [Steven_]
Steven_ has joined #htmltf
13:29:14 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make this record public
13:29:22 [RalphS]
Elias: does role appear in this draft?
13:29:36 [RalphS]
... and does it match what we've decided in RDFa discussion?
13:29:48 [RalphS]
Steven: role is in there but not mapped to RDF
13:30:10 [RalphS]
Topic: Role attribute status
13:30:23 [benadida]
primer: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/
13:31:02 [RalphS]
Ben: in the 16 May draft of the RDFa primer we use role as an abbreviation for rdf:type
13:31:14 [RalphS]
Steven: I am very much in support of that approach
13:32:03 [RalphS]
Mark: in long discussion history prior to the 16 May primer draft, role was html:role
13:32:19 [RalphS]
... I feel that role needs to be a separate predicate
13:32:47 [RalphS]
... we're really talking now about deciding whether both xhtml:role and rdf:type triples should be generated
13:32:56 [RalphS]
... I think generating two triples is wrong
13:33:09 [RalphS]
... as I've said in the past, I think class should be used for rdf:type
13:33:30 [RalphS]
... unfortunately we haven't been able to get a clear opinion from the Accessibility folk
13:34:27 [RalphS]
... I think if someone chooses to add the equivalence 'xhtml:role owl:sameAs rdf:type' to their own database that's fine but we shouldn't add it to the spec.
13:34:54 [RalphS]
Elias: the XHTML spec will decide the definitions as XHTML relates to RDF and we should be consistent
13:35:19 [RalphS]
... we should look at the impact on prior uses of HTML
13:35:37 [RalphS]
... the meaning of role, though new to HTML, is not really like 'type'
13:36:10 [RalphS]
q+ to offer to talk with Michael Cooper, new staff member in WAI
13:36:44 [Zakim]
Ralph, you wanted to offer to talk with Michael Cooper, new staff member in WAI
13:37:47 [RalphS]
Ralph: we have a new W3C staff person in the WAI area, Michael Cooper
13:38:20 [RalphS]
... I would be willing to raise the question with Michael and see if we might get a formal opinion from the Accessibility folk
13:38:58 [RalphS]
Elias: why do we need this shorthand?
13:39:35 [RalphS]
Mark: when folks began to think about RDF in the HTML context, some people started using role and some people started using class
13:39:55 [RalphS]
Elias: as soon as you need to specify two types you have to use rdf:type anyway
13:40:25 [RalphS]
... this happens frequently in RDF/XML; there are documents with lots of rdf:type predicates
13:40:41 [RalphS]
... converting FOAF is sort of a simple case
13:40:49 [RalphS]
... what other kinds of documents need this shorthand?
13:41:21 [RalphS]
... FOAF has been around a while and users have become accustomed to how it's used in RDF/XML
13:41:36 [RalphS]
... I don't think people often check the type of a predicate; they "know" what it is
13:41:52 [RalphS]
... are there examples other than FOAF where multiple types are clearly needed?
13:42:04 [RalphS]
Mark: one question is whether the ontologies could have been designed better
13:42:31 [RalphS]
... but one answer is that the design of the ontology is not up to us and people just want to be able to use existing ontologies easily
13:42:53 [RalphS]
Elias: Henry Storey's ATOM ontology is very full and very descriptive
13:43:04 [benadida]
q+ to bring up MFs
13:43:41 [RalphS]
... in general, an ontology can describe the domain and range of its predicates
13:44:01 [RalphS]
... people who want to know the classes of subjects and objects can load the ontology and make the appropriate inferences
13:44:59 [RalphS]
... it's straightforward to deduce the class of a subject
13:45:15 [RalphS]
... so how much detail really needs to be written into an HTML document?
13:45:25 [RalphS]
... the important discussion is really whether we need a shorthand
13:45:37 [RalphS]
... nothing prevents an HTML author from using rdf:type explicitly
13:45:59 [RalphS]
... do we have more examples that show a shorthand is really required?
13:46:37 [RalphS]
Ben: Elias is coming from the RDF point of view; we'd need to consider this from the point of view of an HTML author as well
13:46:50 [RalphS]
... e.g. in microformats, people declare Events, etc.
13:47:02 [RalphS]
... they anchor their type declarations using class=
13:47:16 [RalphS]
... if we make RDFa more complicated than this then we will lose part of the community
13:47:38 [RalphS]
Elias: most people see subjects and objects as having just one type
13:47:46 [benadida]
zakim, ack me
13:47:46 [Zakim]
benadida, you wanted to bring up MFs
13:47:47 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
13:48:20 [RalphS]
Mark: another approach would have been to do a full review of all the features in HTML and see what we could use them to specify
13:48:27 [RalphS]
... in some sense the microformat people have done this
13:48:47 [Steven_]
q+ to talk about class
13:48:57 [RalphS]
Elias: if we do go with a shortcut, I think class is going to be better, more elegant
13:49:15 [benadida]
zakim, ack steven
13:49:15 [Zakim]
Steven_, you wanted to talk about class
13:49:16 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
13:49:20 [RalphS]
Mark: it would be wrong not to use class for _something_
13:49:35 [RalphS]
... and others have chosen to use class for type
13:49:44 [RalphS]
Steven: I have a lot of sympathy for using class=
13:50:10 [RalphS]
... but with my chair hat on I see a big hassle because class is very widely used by a community who do not necessarily subscribe to our goals
13:50:14 [RalphS]
... e.g. CSS
13:50:31 [MarkB_]
q+ To also talk about class.
13:50:51 [RalphS]
... if we start assigning meaning to class values - especially as it likely changes the current meaning, given that class values currently do not have a namespace -- I forsee a lot of trouble
13:51:03 [RalphS]
... we will have triples produced that were not intended by the authors
13:51:13 [RalphS]
... if we use role we won't have to deal with this legacy
13:51:33 [RalphS]
Elias: currently XHTML2 doesn't say how role relates to RDF
13:51:44 [RalphS]
Steven: only because we haven't decided exactly what the relationship is
13:51:55 [RalphS]
... we agree that xhtml2:role should have _some_ relationship to RDF
13:52:06 [RalphS]
... it's in the draft now at the request of the WAI community
13:52:26 [RalphS]
... WAI and Device Independence/Mobile are the two communities who are interested in using role
13:52:39 [RalphS]
... and both are interested in the metadata [triples] produced
13:53:05 [RalphS]
Mark: there are best practice statements that some URI points to an RDF schema
13:53:31 [RalphS]
Elias: but type is different from role
13:53:41 [RalphS]
Mark: that is my view
13:53:59 [RalphS]
... role='toolbar' is not saying something _is_ a toolbar but only that it plays the function of a toolbar
13:54:08 [benadida]
zakim, ack MarkB
13:54:08 [Zakim]
MarkB_, you wanted to also talk about class.
13:54:09 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
13:54:40 [RalphS]
Mark: I think Ben's solution for rel= and rev= works quite nicely
13:54:56 [RalphS]
... unprefixed values come from a specified list
13:55:05 [RalphS]
... prefixed values come from the corresponding namespace
13:55:22 [RalphS]
... so people won't be making globally meaningful statements without intending to do so
13:55:54 [RalphS]
... but many writers are suggesting ways to add more semantics to HTML markup and they're recommending the use of class=
13:56:59 [RalphS]
Steven: changing the syntactic value of class
13:57:11 [RalphS]
Mark: changing the syntax of values doesn't change the meaning
13:57:34 [RalphS]
Steven: I foresee a huge controversy with other users of class
13:58:28 [RalphS]
Mark: but if we try to persuade users of microformats to adopt RDFa and say nothing about the class attribute then we're setting ourselves up for failure
13:58:53 [RalphS]
Elias: we do have to think about adoption
13:59:27 [RalphS]
... just because we can define a brand new XHTML container format doesn't mean we'll convince people to use it
13:59:59 [RalphS]
Ben: we'll need to continue this conversation; we're seeing here the many faces of the community
14:01:26 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben check that the issues list summarizes all the viewpoints on role and class attributes
14:01:38 [RalphS]
Steven: including that role is a shorthand for a predicate
14:02:49 [RalphS]
Mark: I'm proposing that we take as a given that role does generate an xhtml:role triple and the question is whether it also generates another triple
14:02:55 [RalphS]
move to next agendum
14:02:55 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "QNames in Attributes" taken up [from RalphS]
14:03:17 [RalphS]
Ben: I sent personal mail to Ian Davis
14:04:08 [RalphS]
... as he's done work in that area
14:04:36 [RalphS]
... I believe that XML purists deplore QNames in attributes but have come to accept it
14:05:05 [RalphS]
Elias: would that mean we no longer need CURIEs?
14:05:29 [RalphS]
Ben: no, it's just a matter of whether it has become an acceptable practice to use QNames in attribute values
14:05:42 [RalphS]
Elias: QNames in href?
14:05:58 [RalphS]
Ben: not allowed. Only possible with CURIE approach
14:06:30 [RalphS]
... I'm concerned about what would happen with [current] browsers
14:06:36 [RalphS]
Ben: yes, that's another discussion
14:06:39 [MarkB_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0009.html
14:07:37 [RalphS]
close this agendum
14:07:58 [RalphS]
Topic: next meeting
14:08:05 [RalphS]
Ben: can everyone make next Tuesday?
14:08:10 [EliasT]
I can.
14:08:13 [RalphS]
Steven: yes, but not the following 3 weeks
14:08:46 [RalphS]
I expect to be able to participate on 8 Aug
14:09:08 [RalphS]
take up agendum 5
14:09:13 [RalphS]
zakim, take up agendum 5
14:09:13 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "XHTML1.1: status of the module and what we can do to begin validating" taken up [from RalphS]
14:09:31 [MarkB_]
http://skimstone.x-port.net/node/213
14:09:45 [RalphS]
Mark: there's been some progress on a schema that works with a validator
14:10:25 [EliasT]
is it this: http://schneegans.de/sv/
14:10:31 [RalphS]
Ben: there was an announcement of a validator that supported namespaces
14:10:58 [RalphS]
Mark: yes, schneegans was using modularization schemas. I should contact them.
14:11:30 [RalphS]
Ben: I'd like to see a concise document that points to the current work and a validator that does work, along with renderings in current browsers
14:12:23 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work
14:12:25 [Steven_]
http://relaxed.vse.cz/
14:12:29 [Steven_]
is the one I meant
14:13:13 [MarkB_]
thanks
14:14:00 [RalphS]
Next Meeting: 8 Aug
14:14:00 [Zakim]
-EliasT
14:14:02 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
14:14:04 [Zakim]
-MarkB_
14:14:18 [RalphS]
Elias: I'm not hearing a huge validation requirement right now
14:14:19 [EliasT]
Ben was asking whether I had any specific XHTML 1.1 requirements. I am mostly interested in reducing the number of issues people have with RDFa. If we can solve one great. At the moment, I don't have any hard requirements.
14:14:33 [Zakim]
-Steven
14:14:33 [RalphS]
thanks for clarification, Elias
14:14:42 [Zakim]
-Ralph
14:14:43 [EliasT]
you're welcome.
14:14:43 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
14:14:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were EliasT, Steven, Ben_Adida, Ralph, MarkB_
14:15:22 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:15:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
14:16:39 [benadida]
benadida has left #htmltf
14:31:12 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
14:31:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #htmltf
14:31:14 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-actions.rdf :
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action01] [1]
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-irc#T13-04-58
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] [2]
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-irc#T13-05-08
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [3]
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-irc#T13-12-29
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [4]
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-irc#T13-21-54
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [5]
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-irc#T13-22-18
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben check that the issues list summarizes all the viewpoints on role and class attributes [6]
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-irc#T14-01-26
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark contact schneegans.de folk about connecting with our work [7]
14:31:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-htmltf-irc#T14-12-23