14:28:41 RRSAgent has joined #dawg 14:28:41 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-dawg-irc 14:29:57 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:29:57 sorry, AndyS, I don't know what conference this is 14:29:58 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, LeeF, AndyS, kendallclark, EliasT, SteveH, afs, ericP 14:30:07 zakim, this is DAWG 14:30:07 ok, LeeF; that matches SW_DAWG()10:30AM 14:30:09 zakim, this is DAWG 14:30:09 kendallclark, this was already SW_DAWG()10:30AM 14:30:10 ok, kendallclark; that matches SW_DAWG()10:30AM 14:30:12 zakim, what's the phone number? 14:30:12 I don't understand your question, LeeF. 14:30:19 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:30:19 On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, ??P2 14:30:21 zakim, please tell me the phone number 14:30:22 I don't understand 'please tell me the phone number', LeeF 14:30:30 zakim, I know that you know the phone number. You're just being stubborn. 14:30:30 I don't understand you, LeeF 14:30:31 ??P2 is AndyS 14:30:31 zakim, ??P2 is me 14:30:31 +AndyS; got it 14:31:11 + +1.650.372.aaaa 14:31:23 +[IBMCambridge] 14:31:28 zakim, IBMCambridge is LeeF 14:31:30 +LeeF; got it 14:31:30 zakim, aaa is FredZ 14:31:32 sorry, kendallclark, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa' 14:31:35 zakim, aaaa is FredZ 14:31:35 +FredZ; got it 14:31:59 +[IBMCambridge] 14:32:03 Zakim, IBMCambridge is me 14:32:03 +EliasT; got it 14:33:41 Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:33:41 On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, AndyS, FredZ, LeeF, EliasT 14:33:53 zakim, pick a scribe 14:33:53 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose LeeF 14:34:10 Chair: kendallclark 14:34:13 Scribe: LeeF 14:34:37 Scribe: EliasT 14:35:13 +??P6 14:35:14 Title: DAWG Weekly Meeting 14:35:25 patH has joined #dawg 14:37:47 zakim, agenda+ Convene [1]RDF Data Access WG meeting of Tuesday, 1 August, 2006 14:37:47 agendum 1 added 14:37:55 Regrets: steve, libby, jeen 14:37:57 zakim, agenda+ Action Items 14:37:57 agendum 2 added 14:38:05 zakim, agenda+ rq24 14:38:05 agendum 3 added 14:38:13 zakim, agenda+ CR Exit Discussion 14:38:13 agendum 4 added 14:38:33 zakim, agenda+ extendedType-ne-fail 14:38:33 agendum 5 added 14:38:47 zakim, agenda+ Formal Semantics 14:38:47 agendum 6 added 14:38:55 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:38:55 agendum 1. "Convene [1]RDF Data Access WG meeting of Tuesday, 1 August, 2006" taken up [from kendallclark] 14:39:17 yes 14:39:31 http://www.w3.org/2006/06/27-dawg-minutes 14:39:41 +PatH 14:40:05 fred has joined #dawg 14:40:15 AndyS: seconds 14:40:57 Next Meeting: Aug 08 2006 14:41:01 zakim, take up next agendum 14:41:01 agendum 2. "Action Items" taken up [from kendallclark] 14:41:24 ACTION: LeeF to make a test case out of the nested GRAPH scenario from DAWG email list 14:41:45 ACTION: EricP to turn FredZ's test case sketches into tests. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006AprJun/0171.html CONTINUED 14:42:45 yes 14:42:54 ACTION: DanC to review PFPS's comments for more test cases CONTINUED 14:42:54 he doesn't have a speaker phone 14:43:27 ACTION: EliasT to turn C2.38 in PFPS's message into a test case DONE 14:43:32 action -4 14:43:51 ACTION: KendallClark to reopen punctuationSyntax to take up commas in SELECT clause.CONTINUED 14:44:10 ACTION: take up new issue concatenated nestedOptional CONTINUED 14:44:34 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues 14:45:42 FredZ: how does someone raise an issue to the issues list 14:46:11 kendallclark: It's mostly up to the chair. I have re-opened two issues already in the past. 14:46:28 ... some issues get raised to be postponed for future iterations of the spec. 14:47:15 ... issues can be sent to the mailing list and turned into testcases. 14:49:29 zakim, take up next agendum 14:49:29 agendum 3. "rq24" taken up [from kendallclark] 14:50:59 zakim, mute me 14:50:59 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 14:51:00 kendallclark: Could AndyS give us major structural changes to the fork to rq23? 14:51:19 zakim, unmute me 14:51:19 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 14:51:28 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq24.html 14:51:37 in the agenda too :> 14:52:23 zakim, unmute me 14:52:23 Kendall_Clark was not muted, kendallclark 14:52:27 AndyS: It's mostly editorial. It has an explicit section to making simple queries as introductional material. Later a section on syntax issues. Section 4 definitions and then BGP. A little bit of renumbering. Mostly to give a better idea of what's tutorialish vs. specification. 14:52:41 ... I collapse the three data sections but mostly for balance. 14:53:11 ... Grammar section was reorganized based on an outstanding message (codepoint escape sequences) 14:53:13 fwiw, the formal definition extraction stuff is broken :> 14:53:58 AndyS: I haven't touched the definitions and/or the grammer. 14:54:57 kendallclark: Summarizing. Changes were mostly editorial to turn it into more specificational rather than tutorial. 14:55:12 hmm, no, tha'ts not what I meant to say :) 14:55:14 or what Andy said 14:55:30 he more clearly distinguishes between exemplary and specificational stuff 14:55:31 AndyS: ericP had suggested to making a single graph of the example in section, but I haven't gotten around to it. 14:56:01 :> 14:56:34 fred: ericP suggested fred should reword his comments against rq24. 14:56:39 kendallclark: no opinion 14:57:46 kendallclark: I would like us to move to more specificational rather than exemplary. Maybe even a separate document. 14:58:29 ... I believe the audience we are targeting doesn't need the exemplary version. They probably need a more formal one. 14:59:33 ... If rq24 distinguishes clearer between exemplary and specificational, I'd like it better. 15:01:43 kendallclark: Would you (LeeF) would like to write our primer? 15:02:18 we do have the definitions extraction script - we could make that more explicit. 15:05:26 AndyS: We could work on making the extracted document better from definitions. We have had feedback that the audience likes both: definitions and discursive text. 15:05:48 ... we have the ability to extract a definitions only document. 15:06:31 kendallclark: would we need a more explict structure: like primer section, etc. 15:06:55 AndyS: keeping two documents in sync (primer/spec) is relatively hard. 15:07:19 patH: AndyS's comments are backed up by real examples such as OWL. 15:07:37 i'm interesting in hearing PatH's specific experiences in OWL 15:07:46 AndyS: two sets of people read each document and inconsistencies never get pointed out. 15:08:16 Do the definitions give a fully coherent formal specification of SPARQL? I think probably not... 15:08:29 We have feedback that they don't, I believe. 15:09:30 patH: SPARQL spec style is a bit weird. We need both a good amount of text and definitions. 15:10:29 fred: I'd like more distinction between definitions and examples. I would like to suggest a new section on transformation from grammar to mathematical engine. 15:11:28 kendallclark: Andy, do you think we reached the point where parts of the document (via CSS) are normative and other not? 15:12:19 AndyS: My current suggestion would be to extract a def-only document. 15:12:54 kendallclark: Could the script also extract the normative part of the spec as part of the separate document? 15:13:20 ... besides the definitions. 15:14:28 AndyS: I think we are probably very close to that. 15:16:49 AndyS: I will go through the document trying to markup what text is normative and should go along with the definitions. 15:20:50 patH: A compromise could be to add a header that says "Example" used over and over again 15:22:08 Zakim, mute me 15:22:08 EliasT should now be muted 15:22:08 ACTION LeeF: To review rq24. 15:22:55 zakim, take up next agendum 15:22:55 agendum 4. "CR Exit Discussion" taken up [from kendallclark] 15:23:36 Zakim, unmute me 15:23:36 EliasT should no longer be muted 15:25:15 LeeF, if you are thinking about how to mechanically (perhaps XSLT) separate rq24 into tutorial and normative, i can geek with you a bit 15:26:16 thanks, ericP -- will probably review it first and note structural feedbacks at a non-markup level first, and then think about mechanical separation -- at which point I will be sure to bug you relentlessly :-) 15:26:20 kendallclark: we need to have some meetings to get rid of old tests 15:26:54 LeeF: I've been starting to jot down a whole bunch of tests that are either old or unncessary. I'll contribute that as needed. 15:28:37 zakim, take up next agendum 15:28:37 agendum 5. "extendedType-ne-fail" taken up [from kendallclark] 15:29:44 LeeF: the test is correct and the spec needs changing, but the spec change is substantial and needs review from the WG. 15:30:09 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0024.html 15:30:11 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#extendedtype-ne-fail 15:31:18 LeeF: it should fail 15:31:27 ericP: By fail do you mean fail or skip that solution? 15:31:53 fred: filter will not pass anything that errors. 15:33:12 AndyS: I thought we decided that if the impl added understanding of new types it could answer correctly. 15:33:50 ericP: The problem we have is that = for RDFTerms is the same as for strings. 15:34:06 ... sometimes you can pass the test, but with new information you could fail the test. 15:35:04 Open world tests for datatypes from Andy: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006AprJun/0104.html 15:36:16 yes, it is :) 15:36:24 Chair: kendallclark 15:36:41 90mins? 15:37:07 sorry 15:37:26 you wish, elias 15:38:14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006AprJun/0104.html 15:41:27 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006AprJun/0052 last time we discussed termEquals 15:43:08 I'm happy to turn a description into a concrete test in the test suite. 15:47:10 ... the new = syntax from AndyS. 15:47:53 || 15:47:59 || is a special form. 15:50:14 what was the outcome of FILTER("foo" = "foo"^^xsd:string)? 15:50:36 True. Same value. 15:51:16 ACTION PatH: To write another open world value test to add to Andy's. 15:52:12 ACTION EricP: to respond to PatH's new test with supplemental info 15:52:58 FILTER (datatype(?x)=xsd:string) 15:53:32 zakim, take up next agendum 15:53:32 agendum 6. "Formal Semantics" taken up [from kendallclark] 15:53:45 ACTION EricP: to respond to PatH's new test with a proof of whether it's monotonic 15:54:15 ACTION EricP: to respond to PatH's new test with a proof of whether it's monotonic to extended datatype support 15:54:21 action -9 15:54:22 action -10 15:55:18 -FredZ 15:55:19 -Kendall_Clark 15:55:21 -PatH 15:55:22 RRSAgen, please draft minutes 15:55:26 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:55:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-dawg-minutes.html EliasT 15:55:43 -LeeF 15:57:50 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:57:50 On the phone I see AndyS, EliasT, ericP 15:59:50 ericP? 15:59:57 help me with the bots? 16:00:19 RRSAgent, make logs world readable 16:00:19 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs world readable', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:00:35 RRSAgent, make logs world access 16:00:35 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs world access', EliasT. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:00:49 RRSAgent, make logs world-readable 16:00:50 RRSAgent, silence