IRC log of dawg on 2006-08-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:41 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:28:41 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:29:57 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:29:57 [Zakim]
sorry, AndyS, I don't know what conference this is
14:29:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, LeeF, AndyS, kendallclark, EliasT, SteveH, afs, ericP
14:30:07 [LeeF]
zakim, this is DAWG
14:30:07 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; that matches SW_DAWG()10:30AM
14:30:09 [kendallclark]
zakim, this is DAWG
14:30:09 [Zakim]
kendallclark, this was already SW_DAWG()10:30AM
14:30:10 [Zakim]
ok, kendallclark; that matches SW_DAWG()10:30AM
14:30:12 [LeeF]
zakim, what's the phone number?
14:30:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, LeeF.
14:30:19 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:30:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, ??P2
14:30:21 [LeeF]
zakim, please tell me the phone number
14:30:22 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please tell me the phone number', LeeF
14:30:30 [LeeF]
zakim, I know that you know the phone number. You're just being stubborn.
14:30:30 [Zakim]
I don't understand you, LeeF
14:30:31 [kendallclark]
??P2 is AndyS
14:30:31 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P2 is me
14:30:31 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:31:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.372.aaaa
14:31:23 [Zakim]
14:31:28 [LeeF]
zakim, IBMCambridge is LeeF
14:31:30 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:31:30 [kendallclark]
zakim, aaa is FredZ
14:31:32 [Zakim]
sorry, kendallclark, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
14:31:35 [kendallclark]
zakim, aaaa is FredZ
14:31:35 [Zakim]
+FredZ; got it
14:31:59 [Zakim]
14:32:03 [EliasT]
Zakim, IBMCambridge is me
14:32:03 [Zakim]
+EliasT; got it
14:33:41 [EliasT]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:33:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Kendall_Clark, AndyS, FredZ, LeeF, EliasT
14:33:53 [kendallclark]
zakim, pick a scribe
14:33:53 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose LeeF
14:34:10 [kendallclark]
Chair: kendallclark
14:34:13 [kendallclark]
Scribe: LeeF
14:34:37 [EliasT]
Scribe: EliasT
14:35:13 [Zakim]
14:35:14 [EliasT]
Title: DAWG Weekly Meeting
14:35:25 [patH]
patH has joined #dawg
14:37:47 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ Convene [1]RDF Data Access WG meeting of Tuesday, 1 August, 2006
14:37:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
14:37:55 [LeeF]
Regrets: steve, libby, jeen
14:37:57 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ Action Items
14:37:57 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
14:38:05 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ rq24
14:38:05 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
14:38:13 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ CR Exit Discussion
14:38:13 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
14:38:33 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ extendedType-ne-fail
14:38:33 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
14:38:47 [kendallclark]
zakim, agenda+ Formal Semantics
14:38:47 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
14:38:55 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up agendum 1
14:38:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene [1]RDF Data Access WG meeting of Tuesday, 1 August, 2006" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:39:17 [EliasT]
14:39:31 [kendallclark]
14:39:41 [Zakim]
14:40:05 [fred]
fred has joined #dawg
14:40:15 [EliasT]
AndyS: seconds
14:40:57 [EliasT]
Next Meeting: Aug 08 2006
14:41:01 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum
14:41:01 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Action Items" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:41:24 [LeeF]
ACTION: LeeF to make a test case out of the nested GRAPH scenario from DAWG email list
14:41:45 [ericP]
ACTION: EricP to turn FredZ's test case sketches into tests. CONTINUED
14:42:45 [EliasT]
14:42:54 [ericP]
ACTION: DanC to review PFPS's comments for more test cases CONTINUED
14:42:54 [LeeF]
he doesn't have a speaker phone
14:43:27 [ericP]
ACTION: EliasT to turn C2.38 in PFPS's message into a test case DONE
14:43:32 [ericP]
action -4
14:43:51 [ericP]
ACTION: KendallClark to reopen punctuationSyntax to take up commas in SELECT clause.CONTINUED
14:44:10 [ericP]
ACTION: take up new issue concatenated nestedOptional CONTINUED
14:44:34 [AndyS]
14:45:42 [EliasT]
FredZ: how does someone raise an issue to the issues list
14:46:11 [EliasT]
kendallclark: It's mostly up to the chair. I have re-opened two issues already in the past.
14:46:28 [EliasT]
... some issues get raised to be postponed for future iterations of the spec.
14:47:15 [EliasT]
... issues can be sent to the mailing list and turned into testcases.
14:49:29 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum
14:49:29 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "rq24" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:50:59 [kendallclark]
zakim, mute me
14:50:59 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:51:00 [EliasT]
kendallclark: Could AndyS give us major structural changes to the fork to rq23?
14:51:19 [kendallclark]
zakim, unmute me
14:51:19 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:51:28 [kendallclark]
14:51:37 [kendallclark]
in the agenda too :>
14:52:23 [kendallclark]
zakim, unmute me
14:52:23 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark was not muted, kendallclark
14:52:27 [EliasT]
AndyS: It's mostly editorial. It has an explicit section to making simple queries as introductional material. Later a section on syntax issues. Section 4 definitions and then BGP. A little bit of renumbering. Mostly to give a better idea of what's tutorialish vs. specification.
14:52:41 [EliasT]
... I collapse the three data sections but mostly for balance.
14:53:11 [EliasT]
... Grammar section was reorganized based on an outstanding message (codepoint escape sequences)
14:53:13 [kendallclark]
fwiw, the formal definition extraction stuff is broken :>
14:53:58 [EliasT]
AndyS: I haven't touched the definitions and/or the grammer.
14:54:57 [EliasT]
kendallclark: Summarizing. Changes were mostly editorial to turn it into more specificational rather than tutorial.
14:55:12 [kendallclark]
hmm, no, tha'ts not what I meant to say :)
14:55:14 [kendallclark]
or what Andy said
14:55:30 [kendallclark]
he more clearly distinguishes between exemplary and specificational stuff
14:55:31 [EliasT]
AndyS: ericP had suggested to making a single graph of the example in section, but I haven't gotten around to it.
14:56:01 [kendallclark]
14:56:34 [EliasT]
fred: ericP suggested fred should reword his comments against rq24.
14:56:39 [EliasT]
kendallclark: no opinion
14:57:46 [EliasT]
kendallclark: I would like us to move to more specificational rather than exemplary. Maybe even a separate document.
14:58:29 [EliasT]
... I believe the audience we are targeting doesn't need the exemplary version. They probably need a more formal one.
14:59:33 [EliasT]
... If rq24 distinguishes clearer between exemplary and specificational, I'd like it better.
15:01:43 [EliasT]
kendallclark: Would you (LeeF) would like to write our primer?
15:02:18 [AndyS]
we do have the definitions extraction script - we could make that more explicit.
15:05:26 [EliasT]
AndyS: We could work on making the extracted document better from definitions. We have had feedback that the audience likes both: definitions and discursive text.
15:05:48 [EliasT]
... we have the ability to extract a definitions only document.
15:06:31 [EliasT]
kendallclark: would we need a more explict structure: like primer section, etc.
15:06:55 [EliasT]
AndyS: keeping two documents in sync (primer/spec) is relatively hard.
15:07:19 [EliasT]
patH: AndyS's comments are backed up by real examples such as OWL.
15:07:37 [ericP]
i'm interesting in hearing PatH's specific experiences in OWL
15:07:46 [EliasT]
AndyS: two sets of people read each document and inconsistencies never get pointed out.
15:08:16 [LeeF]
Do the definitions give a fully coherent formal specification of SPARQL? I think probably not...
15:08:29 [kendallclark]
We have feedback that they don't, I believe.
15:09:30 [EliasT]
patH: SPARQL spec style is a bit weird. We need both a good amount of text and definitions.
15:10:29 [EliasT]
fred: I'd like more distinction between definitions and examples. I would like to suggest a new section on transformation from grammar to mathematical engine.
15:11:28 [EliasT]
kendallclark: Andy, do you think we reached the point where parts of the document (via CSS) are normative and other not?
15:12:19 [EliasT]
AndyS: My current suggestion would be to extract a def-only document.
15:12:54 [EliasT]
kendallclark: Could the script also extract the normative part of the spec as part of the separate document?
15:13:20 [EliasT]
... besides the definitions.
15:14:28 [EliasT]
AndyS: I think we are probably very close to that.
15:16:49 [EliasT]
AndyS: I will go through the document trying to markup what text is normative and should go along with the definitions.
15:20:50 [EliasT]
patH: A compromise could be to add a header that says "Example" used over and over again
15:22:08 [EliasT]
Zakim, mute me
15:22:08 [Zakim]
EliasT should now be muted
15:22:08 [kendallclark]
ACTION LeeF: To review rq24.
15:22:55 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum
15:22:55 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "CR Exit Discussion" taken up [from kendallclark]
15:23:36 [EliasT]
Zakim, unmute me
15:23:36 [Zakim]
EliasT should no longer be muted
15:25:15 [ericP]
LeeF, if you are thinking about how to mechanically (perhaps XSLT) separate rq24 into tutorial and normative, i can geek with you a bit
15:26:16 [LeeF]
thanks, ericP -- will probably review it first and note structural feedbacks at a non-markup level first, and then think about mechanical separation -- at which point I will be sure to bug you relentlessly :-)
15:26:20 [EliasT]
kendallclark: we need to have some meetings to get rid of old tests
15:26:54 [EliasT]
LeeF: I've been starting to jot down a whole bunch of tests that are either old or unncessary. I'll contribute that as needed.
15:28:37 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum
15:28:37 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "extendedType-ne-fail" taken up [from kendallclark]
15:29:44 [EliasT]
LeeF: the test is correct and the spec needs changing, but the spec change is substantial and needs review from the WG.
15:30:09 [kendallclark]
15:30:11 [LeeF]
15:31:18 [EliasT]
LeeF: it should fail
15:31:27 [EliasT]
ericP: By fail do you mean fail or skip that solution?
15:31:53 [EliasT]
fred: filter will not pass anything that errors.
15:33:12 [EliasT]
AndyS: I thought we decided that if the impl added understanding of new types it could answer correctly.
15:33:50 [EliasT]
ericP: The problem we have is that = for RDFTerms is the same as for strings.
15:34:06 [EliasT]
... sometimes you can pass the test, but with new information you could fail the test.
15:35:04 [kendallclark]
Open world tests for datatypes from Andy:
15:36:16 [kendallclark]
yes, it is :)
15:36:24 [EliasT]
Chair: kendallclark
15:36:41 [AndyS]
15:37:07 [EliasT]
15:37:26 [patH]
you wish, elias
15:38:14 [kendallclark]
15:41:27 [ericP]
-> last time we discussed termEquals
15:43:08 [AndyS]
I'm happy to turn a description into a concrete test in the test suite.
15:47:10 [EliasT]
... the new = syntax from AndyS.
15:47:53 [kendallclark]
15:47:59 [AndyS]
|| is a special form.
15:50:14 [EliasT]
what was the outcome of FILTER("foo" = "foo"^^xsd:string)?
15:50:36 [AndyS]
True. Same value.
15:51:16 [kendallclark]
ACTION PatH: To write another open world value test to add to Andy's.
15:52:12 [kendallclark]
ACTION EricP: to respond to PatH's new test with supplemental info
15:52:58 [AndyS]
FILTER (datatype(?x)=xsd:string)
15:53:32 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up next agendum
15:53:32 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Formal Semantics" taken up [from kendallclark]
15:53:45 [ericP]
ACTION EricP: to respond to PatH's new test with a proof of whether it's monotonic
15:54:15 [ericP]
ACTION EricP: to respond to PatH's new test with a proof of whether it's monotonic to extended datatype support
15:54:21 [ericP]
action -9
15:54:22 [ericP]
action -10
15:55:18 [Zakim]
15:55:19 [Zakim]
15:55:21 [Zakim]
15:55:22 [EliasT]
RRSAgen, please draft minutes
15:55:26 [EliasT]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:55:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate EliasT
15:55:43 [Zakim]
15:57:50 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:57:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, EliasT, ericP
15:59:50 [EliasT]
15:59:57 [EliasT]
help me with the bots?
16:00:19 [LeeF]
RRSAgent, make logs world readable
16:00:19 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs world readable', LeeF. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:00:35 [EliasT]
RRSAgent, make logs world access
16:00:35 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs world access', EliasT. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:00:49 [LeeF]
RRSAgent, make logs world-readable
16:00:50 [EliasT]
RRSAgent, silence