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13:40:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/28-i18nits-irc
13:40:19 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n ITS working group
13:40:21 <fsasaki> chair: Yves
13:40:23 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
13:40:27 <fsasaki> scribeNick: fsasaki
13:41:33 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0101.html
13:41:39 <fsasaki> rrsagent, make log public
13:44:52 <YvesS> YvesS has joined #i18nits
13:58:14 <Zakim> I18N_ITS(EDIT)10:00AM has now started
13:58:21 <Zakim> +Yves_Savourel
13:58:58 <Zakim> +Felix
14:01:16 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18nits
14:01:21 <Zakim> +Diane_Stoick
14:01:32 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
14:01:32 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:01:33 <Zakim> +Richard
14:02:32 <diane> diane has joined #i18nits
14:03:11 <YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0101.html
14:03:15 <Zakim> + +49.622.776.aaaa
14:03:20 <fsasaki> Yves: these are the topics for today
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14:04:04 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3459
14:04:28 <fsasaki> Yves describes the issue
14:04:57 <fsasaki> Yves just send a mail about that, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0249.html
14:05:29 <fsasaki> rb  	Common  	(PCDATA | Inline - ruby)*
14:06:30 <fsasaki> Felix describes the mail
14:09:06 <fsasaki> Felix: we have to think through the processing changes as well
14:09:17 <fsasaki> .. e.g. about arbitrary nesting of ITS markup
14:09:30 <fsasaki> Yves: so we have to think this through
14:09:51 <fsasaki> action: Working group to think through processing implications about applying ITS markup to other ITS markup
14:10:04 <YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0120.html
14:10:05 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3466
14:10:50 <YvesS> [[2-2: If an application claims to process ITS markup for the ruby data
14:10:50 <YvesS> category or the directionality data category *in their local usages*, it
14:10:50 <YvesS> MUST be compliant with the external specifications referenced for ruby
14:10:50 <YvesS> or directionality.]]
14:10:57 <fsasaki> Yves: Felix said we should say: the conformance of external specs for ruby applies only for local and not for global rules
14:11:13 <fsasaki> Felix: and for directionality
14:11:35 <fsasaki> Yves: I'm fine with that
14:11:52 <fsasaki> .. but the second part of the question: do we need global rules for XHTML
14:13:17 <fsasaki> .. you say no?
14:13:55 <r12a> felix, please speak louder
14:17:14 <fsasaki> felix: do we want the HTML WG to add ITS markup to their scheme?
14:17:24 <YvesS> RI: I'm also wondering whether XHTML 1.1 would need such global rules. If it does,
14:17:24 <YvesS> it would be a good example to cite.
14:18:34 <fsasaki> Felix: sorry, I misunderstood, I agree with you and Richard
14:19:13 <fsasaki> Yves: should we change 2.2 as Felix proposed at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0120.html ?
14:20:22 <fsasaki> .. no objections?
14:21:21 <fsasaki> Richard: what spec do you use for directionality?
14:22:30 <fsasaki> Felix: XHTML 2.0 . We might have to change that later if XHTML 2.0 is not a REC in time
14:23:36 <fsasaki> Richard: if people use their own local markup for ruby
14:23:56 <fsasaki> .. what happens?
14:24:10 <fsasaki> .. if they use global rules
14:25:20 <fsasaki> .. does that mean they are compliant to ruby?
14:26:35 <fsasaki> Felix: what would happen to implementations that use ruby?
14:26:48 <fsasaki> .. what is the consequenses of mapping for them?
14:28:25 <fsasaki> <its:dirRule select"//p" dir="rtl"/>
14:30:48 <fsasaki> Felix: I don't know how to implement that, e.g. dir plus directional algorithm
14:33:30 <fsasaki> Yves: we don't have the need that ITS processes what dir or ruby allows to process
14:35:23 <fsasaki> Felix: I agree, that is what my proposal of 2-2 says at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0120.html
14:35:29 <fsasaki> [[2-2: If an application claims to process ITS markup for the ruby data
14:35:30 <fsasaki> category or the directionality data category *in their local usages*, it
14:35:30 <fsasaki> MUST be compliant with the external specifications referenced for ruby
14:35:30 <fsasaki> or directionality.]]
14:35:51 <YvesS> 2-2: If an application claims to process ITS markup for the ruby data category or the directionality data category, it MUST be compliant with the external specifications referenced for ruby or directionality.
14:36:28 <fsasaki> Richard: how about dropping this conformance clause?
14:36:43 <fsasaki> .. ITS is related to identifying what s.t. is
14:37:05 <fsasaki> Yves: yes, an ITS processor does not have to implement ruby display, also in the local case
14:37:49 <fsasaki> Richard: I had discussions what xml:lang means with the SSML people
14:38:06 <fsasaki> .. just talking about the markup is easier
14:38:17 <fsasaki> Yves: but we have to talk about the semantics
14:39:09 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3491
14:39:40 <YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0201
14:39:53 <fsasaki> Example 22 and 23)
14:40:13 <fsasaki> s/23)/23/
14:44:13 <fsasaki> Yves: do the ITS people agree with the example? Could we go back to i18n core with it?
14:44:28 <fsasaki> Christian: I'm fine with the examples
14:45:17 <fsasaki> Yves: resolution, we go back to the i18n core wg
14:46:03 <fsasaki> Felix: I will make that for this and all other i18n core resolved issues on the weekend or next week
14:46:24 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3494
14:46:43 <fsasaki> Yves: I would propose not to change the naming of the attribute , Martin and Felix convinced me
14:46:50 <fsasaki> .. everybody fine with that?
14:47:29 <fsasaki> Richard: the difference between ref and pointer is sometimes difficult
14:47:36 <fsasaki> .. to remember
14:47:52 <fsasaki> Christian: I followed the discussion, I think we should stick with the current names
14:48:08 <fsasaki> Yves: o.k.
14:48:26 <fsasaki> .. Felix, did you do your action item on the data type explanation?
14:48:30 <fsasaki> Felix: no, pending
14:48:53 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3495
14:49:02 <YvesS> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3495#c1
14:49:13 <fsasaki> (Proposal from Yves)
14:50:54 <fsasaki> Richard: will you not change the name of the data category?
14:51:12 <fsasaki> Yves: no, we did not planned to
14:51:29 <fsasaki> .. should I rework the wording?
14:52:55 <fsasaki> (discussion about terms like "phrasal" and "inline" elements, or other terminology)
14:55:50 <fsasaki> Yves: do the others like my rewording?
14:57:00 <fsasaki> Christian: I'm not fine with the name "elements within text". The explanatory text is fine
14:57:29 <fsasaki> (various terms proposals: sub flow, ...)
14:58:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/28-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
14:59:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/28-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
15:02:36 <fsasaki> Felix, Richard: you could  have examples in the definition section
15:02:56 <fsasaki> Richard: you also have to say that applications makes different uses of this
15:02:59 <fsasaki> .. which is fine
15:03:17 <fsasaki> action: Yves to reword http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3495#c1 taking today's discussion into account
15:03:38 <fsasaki> topic: call on Monday
15:03:42 <fsasaki> Yves: who can come?
15:04:21 <fsasaki> Christian, Diane, Richard: can't come
15:04:45 <fsasaki> Yves: so only Felix and me will be on the call
15:04:56 <fsasaki> topic: conference in London in November
15:06:02 <fsasaki> Christian: November 16 - 17
15:06:10 <fsasaki> Richard: overlaps with Unicode
15:07:11 <fsasaki> Felix: don't know if I can go to Unicode, but can't promise
15:07:21 <fsasaki> Richard: it's a good place to talk about ITS, I think
15:07:47 <fsasaki> Christian: we only need to say who could present
15:08:04 <fsasaki> .. they would be happy to let us talk
15:09:00 <fsasaki> Christian: could I answer them saying that we continue to discuss who would present
15:09:09 <fsasaki> Felix: I would propose you, Christian
15:09:18 <fsasaki> Christian: I'd like to check with Sebastian
15:09:36 <Zakim> -Christian
15:10:29 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3500#c2
15:10:32 <YvesS> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3495#c1
15:12:19 <fsasaki> Yves: example where directionality uses different markup
15:12:21 <fsasaki> <its:rules xmlns:its="http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its" its:version="1.0">
15:12:21 <fsasaki>  <its:dirRule dir="rtl" selector="//*[@direction='rtlText']"/>
15:12:21 <fsasaki> </its:rules>
15:12:51 <fsasaki> Richard: I would put the selector attribute first in the example
15:14:04 <fsasaki> Yves: o.k. , everybody is fine with that
15:14:25 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3502
15:14:36 <fsasaki> Yves proposal at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3502#c3
15:14:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/28-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
15:16:06 <fsasaki> Yves: how do we visualize that in the spec?
15:16:11 <fsasaki> Richard: good question
15:16:20 <fsasaki> .. I can show you what I did recently
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15:16:34 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-bidi.html
15:16:47 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-bidi.html#ri20030726.140315918
15:18:11 <fsasaki> Richard: if that does not work, you could have a picture
15:18:23 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-bidi.html#ri20060712.105633805
15:18:36 <fsasaki> action: editors to make the visualization of the directionality example work
15:18:42 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-bidi.html#ri20060712.10592785
15:19:47 <Zakim> -Richard
15:19:51 <Zakim> -Diane_Stoick
15:19:52 <Zakim> -Yves_Savourel
15:19:54 <Zakim> -Felix
15:19:55 <Zakim> I18N_ITS(EDIT)10:00AM has ended
15:19:56 <Zakim> Attendees were Yves_Savourel, Felix, Diane_Stoick, Richard, Christian
15:20:03 <r12a> r12a has left #i18nits
15:20:35 <fsasaki> present: Christian, Diane, Felix, Richard, Yves
15:20:46 <fsasaki> regrets: Andrzej, Sebastian
15:20:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/28-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
15:21:08 <fsasaki> Yves, I'll update the bugzilla entries now
15:36:27 <YvesS> I'm back.
15:36:33 <YvesS> yes, thanks.
15:36:40 <YvesS> You wanted to talk?
15:37:16 <fsasaki> as you like, now or Monday
15:37:37 <YvesS> now.
15:37:43 <YvesS> I can call if you want.
15:37:48 <fsasaki> o.k., let's see if zakim still works
15:37:53 <Zakim> I18N_ITS(EDIT)10:00AM has now started
15:37:54 <Zakim> +Felix
15:37:59 <YvesS> i come
15:38:33 <Zakim> + +1.303.516.aaaa
15:45:16 <fsasaki> Just updated http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/issues
16:04:19 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#rec-advance
16:04:38 <fsasaki> Duration of the implementation period: The announcement MUST indicate a minimal duration, before which the Working Group MUST NOT request a Call for Review of a Proposed Recommendation; this minimal duration is designed to allow time for comment. The announcement SHOULD also include the Working Group's estimate of the time expected to gather sufficient implementation data.
16:05:41 <fsasaki> PR: Duration of the review: The announcement begins a review period that MUST last at least four weeks.
16:07:26 <fsasaki> so mid september: finish last call
16:07:40 <fsasaki> closing all items, move to CR after that
16:13:59 <Zakim> - +1.303.516.aaaa
16:14:00 <Zakim> -Felix
16:14:01 <Zakim> I18N_ITS(EDIT)10:00AM has ended
16:14:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Felix, +1.303.516.aaaa
16:33:36 <fsasaki> rrsagent, bye
16:33:36 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/28-i18nits-actions.rdf :
16:33:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Working group to think through processing implications about applying ITS markup to other ITS markup [1]
16:33:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/28-i18nits-irc#T14-09-51
16:33:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves to reword http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3495#c1 taking today's discussion into account [2]
16:33:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/28-i18nits-irc#T15-03-17
16:33:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to make the visualization of the directionality example work [3]
16:33:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/28-i18nits-irc#T15-18-36
16:33:39 <fsasaki> zakim, bye
16:33:39 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18nits
16:33:43 <fsasaki> fsasaki has left #i18nits