13:03:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18nits
13:03:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-irc
13:03:50 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n ITS working group
13:03:54 <fsasaki> chair: Yves
13:03:56 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
13:04:00 <fsasaki> scribeNick: fsasaki
13:04:30 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0073.html
13:50:59 <YvesS> YvesS has joined #i18nits
13:57:01 <fsasaki> Hi Yves, we just got a reply from the HTML WG, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0059.html . I would like to propose a joint call to them, would that be fine with you?
13:58:52 <YvesS> I suppose. When?
13:59:18 <fsasaki> I'll have to check their and our availablity. I'll write a reply
13:59:25 <YvesS> ok
13:59:34 <Zakim> I18N_TS()10:00AM has now started
13:59:41 <Zakim> +Yves_Savourel
14:00:01 <Zakim> -Yves_Savourel
14:00:02 <Zakim> +Yves_Savourel
14:00:03 <Zakim> +Felix
14:00:29 <Zakim> -Felix
14:00:37 <Zakim> +Felix
14:00:59 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18nits
14:01:05 <Zakim> -Felix
14:01:13 <YvesS> I see that :(
14:01:18 <fsasaki> zakim, dial felix-home
14:01:33 <Zakim> ok, fsasaki; the call is being made
14:01:35 <Zakim> -Yves_Savourel
14:01:37 <Zakim> +Yves_Savourel
14:01:39 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
14:01:49 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:01:51 <Zakim> -Yves_Savourel
14:01:53 <Zakim> +Yves_Savourel
14:02:05 <YvesS> zakim, who is here?
14:02:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Yves_Savourel
14:02:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see r12a, YvesS, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
14:02:33 <fsasaki> zakim, dial felix-home
14:02:37 <Zakim> ok, fsasaki; the call is being made
14:02:41 <Zakim> -Yves_Savourel
14:02:41 <r12a> zakim, hurry up please
14:02:43 <Zakim> +Yves_Savourel
14:02:47 <Zakim> +Felix
14:02:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'hurry up', r12a
14:02:53 <r12a> obviously
14:02:59 <fsasaki> zakim, drop felix
14:03:01 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
14:03:05 <Zakim> Felix is being disconnected
14:03:07 <Zakim> -Felix
14:03:11 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:04:29 <Zakim> +Richard
14:04:37 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
14:04:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Yves_Savourel, Richard
14:04:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see r12a, YvesS, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
14:05:45 <r12a> it = ?
14:05:45 <YvesS> Maybe you can talk through Yahoo messenger?
14:06:24 <fsasaki> Yves, did / do you have a telefone connection?
14:06:29 <YvesS> yes
14:06:47 <fsasaki> I'll try again
14:06:51 <fsasaki> zakim, dial felix-home
14:06:51 <Zakim> ok, fsasaki; the call is being made
14:06:52 <Zakim> +Felix
14:07:04 <YvesS> zakim, who is here?
14:07:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Yves_Savourel, Felix (muted), Richard
14:07:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see r12a, YvesS, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
14:07:22 <fsasaki> zakim, drop felix
14:07:29 <Zakim> Felix is being disconnected
14:07:33 <Zakim> -Felix
14:07:35 <chriLi> chriLi has joined #i18nits
14:07:57 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
14:07:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see Yves_Savourel, Richard
14:07:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see chriLi, r12a, YvesS, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
14:08:17 <Zakim> +??P3
14:08:21 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
14:08:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Yves_Savourel, Richard, ??P3
14:08:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see chriLi, r12a, YvesS, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
14:08:33 <Zakim> +Felix
14:08:36 <YvesS> zakim, ?P3 is ChiLi
14:08:41 <Zakim> sorry, YvesS, I do not recognize a party named '?P3'
14:08:45 <YvesS> zakim, ??P3 is ChiLi
14:08:51 <Zakim> +ChiLi; got it
14:10:27 <YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0069.html
14:10:31 <fsasaki> topic: i18n core comments
14:10:49 <fsasaki> Yves: we started discussion already
14:11:13 <fsasaki> .. we did 3466 which is about ruby markup
14:11:38 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3464
14:11:47 <fsasaki> "Allowing for xpath expressions to point to term definitions"
14:12:01 <fsasaki> Yves: maybe we did not see that use case comming
14:12:17 <fsasaki> .. it would work the same way as the locInfoPointer attribute
14:12:24 <fsasaki> .. it would resolve Richard's case?
14:12:28 <fsasaki> Richard: not sure
14:12:42 <fsasaki> .. there was a difference between locInfoPointer and termInfoPointer
14:12:55 <fsasaki> Yves: the mechanisms are the same, only what they point to
14:13:09 <fsasaki> Richard: locInfoPointer points to an attribute with an URI?
14:13:23 <fsasaki> Yves: no, you are reffering to locInfoRefPointer
14:13:37 <fsasaki> .. locInfoPointer points to the localization information
14:13:49 <fsasaki> .. in the case of termInfoRef, the terminology information
14:14:10 <fsasaki> Richard: how about a local version of this?
14:14:15 <fsasaki> Felix: that is: local XPath?
14:14:18 <fsasaki> Richard: yes
14:14:40 <GoutamSaha> GoutamSaha has joined #i18nits
14:15:13 <fsasaki> Yves: if we have termInfoPointer, we 
14:17:05 <fsasaki> .. should also have a local attribute for the other data categories
14:17:23 <fsasaki> Felix: we had never local attributes for pointing
14:17:42 <fsasaki> Richard: would be fine with me not having a local pointer attribute
14:18:11 <fsasaki> Christian: agree as well
14:18:18 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3463
14:18:39 <fsasaki> that would be resolved if we had termInfoPointer
14:18:45 <fsasaki> s/that/Yves: that
14:18:53 <fsasaki> .. because we could use the ID function of XPath
14:19:03 <fsasaki> Richard: it is a bit complicated to do it that way
14:19:38 <YvesS> terminfopointer="id(@def)"
14:20:23 <fsasaki> Yves: the termInfoPointer takes the value of the @def attributes and returns the node, e.g. the <termdef> node
14:20:37 <fsasaki> .. it is not very difficult to write
14:20:46 <fsasaki> Richard: looks simpler than other examples I saw
14:22:21 <fsasaki> Yves: the ID function works only if you have a DTD 
14:22:40 <fsasaki> Felix: it would work also for XML Schema, for RELAX NG it relies on optional features
14:22:54 <fsasaki> Yves: it works with XPath 1.0 as well
14:23:02 <fsasaki> .. everybody fine with that solution?
14:24:03 <fsasaki> [Yves and Richard go through the example  terminfopointer="id(@def)" again]
14:25:04 <fsasaki> Richard: this is a new attribute in the spec?
14:25:11 <fsasaki> Yves: yes, in the termRule element
14:25:27 <YvesS> example: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0064.html
14:26:12 <fsasaki> Felix: it is a new application of an existing mechanism, which we have e.g. for locInfoPointer
14:26:19 <fsasaki> Yves: for me, it is like an oversight
14:28:12 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3462
14:28:23 <fsasaki> "pointing to terms"
14:28:40 <fsasaki> Yves: some rewording basically
14:29:24 <fsasaki> Richard: it is editorial / substantive issue
14:29:33 <fsasaki> s/is/is an/
14:30:18 <fsasaki> Yves: I see no issue with the rewording
14:30:29 <fsasaki> Christian, Felix: fine
14:30:39 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3461
14:33:17 <fsasaki> s/61/60/
14:33:46 <fsasaki> Yves: everybody agreed with the proposal to change the names of the attributes
14:34:33 <fsasaki> .. we also agree on the proposal at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3461
14:35:47 <fsasaki> topic: comment 17 at http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
14:35:58 <fsasaki> Yves reads the comment
14:36:16 <fsasaki> Yves: I would be fine with that
14:36:39 <fsasaki> topic: comment 18
14:37:06 <fsasaki> Richard: this comment at http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/ tries to be more precise for termInfo
14:37:25 <fsasaki> Yves: I am fine with your text proposal
14:38:29 <fsasaki> Richard: the text bit:
14:38:30 <fsasaki> [[We think that we should say that the information at the end of the termInfo
14:38:30 <fsasaki> link is a definition or relevant text to support the understanding of the term
14:38:30 <fsasaki> identified.
14:38:31 <fsasaki> ]]
14:38:41 <fsasaki> [[If we are too vague about what is pointed to, we will lose the advantage we
14:38:41 <fsasaki> were aiming for of tools understanding what the ITS markup is saying.
14:38:42 <fsasaki> ]]
14:39:00 <fsasaki> Yves: the resolution: we will propose some concrete text for our answer
14:39:14 <fsasaki> Richard: that would be o.k., there is no need to change the name of the attribute
14:39:48 <fsasaki> Christian: you summarized last Friday discussion good, by saying pointing to a definition is not the only case
14:40:04 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3459
14:40:10 <fsasaki> "Use of elements"
14:40:57 <fsasaki> Richard: this comment is not only related to locInfo, but also to the span element
14:41:02 <fsasaki> Yves: yes
14:41:22 <r12a> and any others with natural language text
14:41:36 <fsasaki> Yves: we would allow span within span
14:41:58 <fsasaki> .. and span inside locInfo, and look into other places where you have translatable information in ITS
14:42:13 <fsasaki> Richard: we don't have a termDef to allow for definitions
14:42:59 <fsasaki> Yves: what I am not sure about: what about ruby markup?
14:43:10 <fsasaki> .. does it make sense to have span within ruby markup?
14:43:38 <fsasaki> Richard: Felix said at the last call that you can have inline elements in ruby text
14:43:54 <fsasaki> .. so people can do that, so they also can put a span in the text
14:44:17 <fsasaki> Yves: does it make sense to allow ruby markup in locInfo elements?
14:44:29 <fsasaki> Richard: that is a different question whether you put span into ruby
14:45:13 <fsasaki> Yves: yes
14:46:09 <fsasaki> Felix: having ruby with span is conform to the notion of "inline elements" described in the ruby TR
14:46:37 <fsasaki> Richard: but you would have to need to change the spec, since you need to add span to the content model
14:47:30 <fsasaki> action: Yves to look check what ITS elements can contain text and whether having inline elements makes sense for them
14:47:45 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3458
14:48:08 <fsasaki> Yves: you asked to say "the default for translation is yes"
14:48:58 <fsasaki> .. we already wrote what the defaults would be
14:49:44 <fsasaki> Felix: this is an oversight, we had defaults in our implementations already
14:49:52 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3457
14:50:11 <fsasaki> Yves: you proposed to use BCP 47
14:50:38 <fsasaki> Richard: We could just say "BCP 47", without "its successor"
14:51:20 <fsasaki> .. the BCP 47 is always for language, but it is represented by different RFCs
14:51:31 <fsasaki> Yves: all whose things are not official standards?
14:51:48 <fsasaki> Richard: there are two RFCs which wait for assignment of RFC numbers
14:51:56 <fsasaki> Yves: is it o.k. to mention them officially?
14:52:13 <fsasaki> Richard: you don't refer to them via the RFC number, but via the BCP number
14:52:19 <fsasaki> .. which is stable
14:53:10 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3456
14:53:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
14:53:58 <fsasaki> Yves: I proposed a small addition that would follow the text
14:54:09 <fsasaki> "It is generally recommended to avoid using attribute to store text, however,
14:54:09 <fsasaki> in this specific case, the need to provide the notes without interfering with
14:54:09 <fsasaki> the structure of the host document is outweighing the drawbacks of using an
14:54:09 <fsasaki> attribute.
14:54:50 <fsasaki> Richard: this is for local use?
14:54:52 <fsasaki> Yves: yes
14:55:25 <fsasaki> Richard: people who write a new format might say "let's use attributes"
14:55:37 <fsasaki> .. which is bad for new formats
14:56:04 <fsasaki> Yves: its:locInfo is only the "fallback" if you don't have the locInfo markup in your own schema
14:56:13 <fsasaki> Richard: is it clear here?
14:56:25 <fsasaki> Yves: it is made clear in the guideline / BP document
14:57:49 <fsasaki> .. the guidelines will say what 
14:58:32 <fsasaki> Felix: how about linking the BP and the ITS spec in this case?
14:58:40 <fsasaki> Richard: I'm not sure
14:59:05 <fsasaki> .. the ITS spec sounds like "if I want to have locNotes, I use the attributes"
15:00:34 <fsasaki> .. whereas elements would be preferable
15:00:59 <fsasaki> .. so at least you have to say: "don't just copy locInfo"
15:01:32 <fsasaki> topic: additional calls
15:01:54 <fsasaki> Yves: Richard, you said that you would be available on Friday, Monday, next Wednesday?
15:02:00 <fsasaki> Richard: thanks
15:02:12 <fsasaki> s/thanks/yes/
15:02:35 <fsasaki> Christian: Friday is fine, I'll check Monday
15:02:42 <YvesS> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product=ITS
15:03:58 <fsasaki> topic: language related issues
15:04:09 <fsasaki> Richard: let's look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0072.html in the next meeting
15:04:22 <Zakim> -ChiLi
15:04:56 <fsasaki> topic: editorial change: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473
15:05:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
15:05:41 <GoutamSaha> Good Night, Felix, Yves, Richard and All
15:05:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
15:06:13 <GoutamSaha> Bye
15:06:15 <fsasaki> Richard: Yves proposal at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3473 sounds good
15:06:31 <fsasaki> Felix: +1
15:07:11 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3479
15:08:37 <fsasaki> regrets: Andrzej
15:08:54 <fsasaki> present: Christian, Felix, Goutam, Richard, Yves
15:09:16 <fsasaki> Richard describes his text proposal
15:09:20 <fsasaki> Yves: fine with me
15:09:23 <fsasaki> Felix: +1
15:09:42 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3480
15:09:51 <fsasaki> Richard: also good for the next meeting
15:10:28 <fsasaki> topic: "translatability" renaming
15:10:53 <fsasaki> Yves: you want to reserve translatability for things which make translation easier
15:11:23 <fsasaki> .. but there are other contexts
15:11:41 <fsasaki> .. translatability is about what is translatable
15:12:01 <fsasaki> Richard: translatability enables translation
15:12:11 <Zakim> -Richard
15:12:18 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
15:12:18 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:12:55 <YvesS> zakim, who is here?
15:12:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Yves_Savourel, Felix
15:12:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see r12a, YvesS, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
15:13:08 <r12a> sorry, i got cut off
15:13:18 <r12a> and now it's saying that the passcode is no longer valid
15:13:18 <fsasaki> maybe we adjourn?
15:13:24 <r12a> i guess we should
15:13:26 <YvesS> ok
15:13:29 <fsasaki> o.k., thanks a lot!
15:13:30 <r12a> and take this up again in the nex tmtg
15:13:34 <YvesS> thank for the extra time
15:13:35 <fsasaki> o.k.
15:13:36 <r12a> cheers
15:14:18 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
15:20:55 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-policy-eds/2006Jul/0053.html
15:22:36 <r12a> r12a has left #i18nits
15:30:20 <Zakim> -Felix
15:30:22 <Zakim> -Yves_Savourel
15:30:24 <Zakim> I18N_TS()10:00AM has ended
15:30:26 <Zakim> Attendees were Yves_Savourel, Felix, Richard, ChiLi
15:30:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
17:33:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18nits
17:33:57 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-actions.rdf :
17:33:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves to look check what ITS elements can contain text and whether having inline elements makes sense for them [1]
17:33:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/19-i18nits-irc#T14-47-30
17:34:01 <fsasaki> fsasaki has left #i18nits