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13:34:18 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n core working group
13:34:25 <fsasaki> chair: Francois
13:34:28 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
13:34:32 <fsasaki> scribeNick: fsasaki
13:34:58 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Jul/0019.html
14:01:58 <fyergeau> fyergeau has joined #i18ncore
14:02:03 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
14:02:10 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:02:54 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18ncore
14:03:24 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
14:03:24 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:03:25 <Zakim> +Richard
14:03:28 <Zakim> +Felix
14:03:58 <Zakim> -Felix
14:04:06 <Zakim> +Felix
14:09:24 <Zakim> +Karunesh_Arora
14:10:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:10:15 <fyergeau> zakim, [ is fyergeau
14:10:15 <Zakim> +fyergeau; got it
14:11:36 <fsasaki> Francois: last meetings minutes - any comments?
14:11:39 <fsasaki> .. nothing
14:11:40 <fsasaki> topic: action items
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14:12:15 <fsasaki> action: Everybody to look at input mode discussion (ONGOING)
14:12:31 <fsasaki> Felix: I had a short look, what should we do now
14:12:58 <fsasaki> Richard: It will come up in the XHTML review again
14:13:07 <fsasaki> .. but other people might have input here
14:13:13 <fsasaki> Francois: let's keep it ongoing
14:13:27 <fsasaki> action: all to look at charmod resid test suite and gather feedback (PENDING)
14:14:02 <fsasaki> action: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (PENDING)
14:14:14 <fsasaki> action: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws-i18n (ONGOING)
14:14:18 <fsasaki> Mary: working on that
14:14:37 <fsasaki> ... should I just start a second document on the policy?
14:14:47 <fsasaki> Francois: Felix asked what remains in the first document
14:15:12 <fsasaki> Mary: it would describe how the headers look like
14:15:37 <fsasaki> Francois: why having two documents?
14:15:56 <fsasaki> Mary: since you might implement the stuff with a different framework
14:17:07 <fsasaki> Francois: it is more difficult to do more than one document
14:17:54 <fsasaki> Felix: it might help the adoption to have a separate document, how the other policy domains do
14:19:42 <fsasaki> .. Mary, could you edit both documents?
14:19:55 <fsasaki> Mary: it depends, we have to see
14:20:17 <fsasaki> Francois: could we start with one document, and see what happens
14:20:26 <fsasaki> Mary: see if we need two documents
14:21:08 <fsasaki> Franois: the actoin item is ongoing?
14:21:10 <fsasaki> Mary: Yes
14:21:15 <fsasaki> s/Franois/Francois/
14:21:28 <fsasaki> action: Richard to create a wiki on "first letter"  (DONE)
14:21:33 <fsasaki> Richard: not a wiki, though
14:21:36 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/notes/firstletter.html
14:22:04 <fsasaki> Richard: the current wikis are a pain to edit as they get long
14:23:06 <fsasaki> .. I have a hybrid between a wiki and a mailing system
14:24:16 <fsasaki> .. Karunesh, do you think that is useful?
14:24:44 <fsasaki> Karunesh: The current way will also work
14:25:19 <fsasaki> .. I will make some comments
14:25:28 <fsasaki> Richard: sent it to www-international
14:25:47 <fsasaki> Francois: very nice, but more work for Richard
14:26:33 <fsasaki> action: Richard to review XHTML Basic 1.1 (ONGOING)
14:26:55 <fsasaki> s/1.1/1.1 and XHTML Modularization/
14:27:14 <fsasaki> topic: LTLI discussion
14:27:26 <fsasaki> Francois: Mark is not here
14:27:29 <fsasaki> Felix: I'll ping him again
14:28:39 <fsasaki> Francois: we cannot go on without Mark
14:29:12 <fsasaki> action: Felix to ping Mark on LTLI discussion
14:30:11 <fsasaki> Felix: how about matching - should LTLI discuss matching, not normatively?
14:30:41 <fsasaki> Richard: if it is not normative, it should not be in LTLI
14:30:49 <fsasaki> Felix: it was just brought up a while ago
14:31:15 <fsasaki> Francois: LTLI could identify use cases for matching on the web
14:31:22 <fsasaki> .. that is more BP than normative spec
14:31:41 <fsasaki> Richard: not sure
14:31:47 <fsasaki> .. this could slow things down for LTLI
14:31:58 <fsasaki> .. this could slow things down
14:32:07 <fsasaki> Francois: that's a worthy point
14:33:38 <fsasaki> Felix: summary: people at the call currently think explanatory material on matching should not be on LTLI
14:34:42 <fsasaki> Francois: that's all for this week
14:34:51 <fsasaki> topic: ws i18n progress
14:35:07 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-ws-i18n-20050914/
14:35:34 <Zakim> +??P11
14:35:43 <fsasaki> Francois: already handled during action items
14:36:14 <fsasaki> topic: LTLI (now with Mark)
14:36:51 <fyergeau> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2006JulSep/0004.html
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14:41:05 <fsasaki> Francois: discussion state: we need use cases for LTLI
14:41:35 <fsasaki> Francois describes a use case which uses the browsers language
14:41:53 <fsasaki> Richard: we agreed that xml:lang will not be used for local, right?
14:41:55 <fsasaki> Mark: no
14:42:17 <fsasaki> .. you could either deny xml:lang
14:42:35 <fsasaki> .. or is it as the core of locale, and get other information from somewhere else
14:42:46 <fsasaki> .. the latter seems to be more practical
14:43:02 <fsasaki> .. "locale" has no well established meaning like language
14:43:24 <fsasaki> .. e.g. for some people, locale definitions requires at least three countries
14:43:43 <fsasaki> .. e.g. the nationality of a user, the place of transaction, the place of the user etc.
14:43:59 <fsasaki> .. "locale" is an amorphous set of preferences
14:44:18 <fsasaki> .. I think, the core part is language
14:44:52 <fsasaki> .. so people would add other fields for their requirements
14:45:06 <fsasaki> Richard: should we say "a core for locale"
14:45:13 <fsasaki> .. or "the key indicator"?
14:45:15 <fsasaki> Francois: both
14:45:30 <fsasaki> .. it is core, but you can use it also as an indication
14:45:42 <fsasaki> Richard: that is: the other aspects of the locale
14:45:54 <fsasaki> Mark: take a look at time zone
14:46:36 <fsasaki> Francois: what is the use case for time zone on the web?
14:46:46 <fsasaki> .. to give time indications in the users time zone?
14:46:51 <fsasaki> Mark: yes
14:47:07 <fsasaki> .. e.g. for news to say "this happened three hours ago" or "two o'clock"
14:47:24 <fsasaki> .. sometimes you don't do that
14:47:38 <fsasaki> Francois: time zone is the most independent from language, so its outside the core
14:47:47 <fsasaki> .. the same holds for currency
14:48:00 <fsasaki> s/../Mark:/
14:48:15 <fsasaki> Francois: for most languages you can make a good guess
14:48:30 <fsasaki> Richard: what is "a locale"?
14:48:49 <fsasaki> Francois: we already agreed that it depends on the application
14:49:13 <fsasaki> Richard: so the locale is not something you can label?
14:49:24 <fsasaki> Mark: the notion of locale is very amorphous
14:50:44 <fsasaki> Francois: you want locale identifiers so that a recipient is able to do s.t. with it
14:51:03 <fsasaki> .. it is a collective thing
14:51:15 <fsasaki> .. it applies to a group of people
14:51:41 <fsasaki> Richard: one could say "a locale groups together types of information and values that defines the interaction in a particular situation"
14:51:50 <fsasaki> .. but we refer to the usage of a particular
14:51:54 <fsasaki> .. label
14:52:58 <fsasaki> Francois: we need to distingush locale identifiers versus their meaning in different contexts
14:53:28 <fsasaki> Felix: we said two weeks ago that locale is always related to processes (interactions), whereas language is kind of static
14:53:41 <fsasaki> Richard: I wanted to say "xml:lang provides a component of the locale information"
14:54:31 <fsasaki> Mark: in most cases the core of the locale is provided by 3066
14:54:39 <fsasaki> .. if you look at Java
14:54:46 <fsasaki> .. posix adds a charset to the notion of locale
14:54:52 <fsasaki> .. but the core is really the language
14:55:20 <fsasaki> .. there is variance in the industry
14:55:27 <fsasaki> .. but not for the core of locale
14:55:40 <fsasaki> Richard: "the core of the locale is given by RFC 3066bis"
14:56:02 <fsasaki> .. that is: locale is a larger thing, and language is only a part of it
14:56:16 <fsasaki> .. as you think about locale identification
14:56:30 <fsasaki> Mark: I don't think if we should be too precise in the language
14:56:40 <fsasaki> .. that is: saying that xml:lang provides the core of the locale
14:56:47 <fsasaki> .. and for many applications that is sufficient
14:57:16 <fsasaki> .. you just want to cover the 99% cases
14:57:43 <fsasaki> Richard: I liked the way Mark phrased it
14:58:05 <fsasaki> Francois: posix locale is a problem
14:59:39 <fsasaki> .. you may need various ISO standards . We have to make sure that this work
15:01:05 <fsasaki> [discussion on posix versus other locale identifiers between Mark and Francois]
15:01:22 <fsasaki> Mark: if you specify the country
15:02:28 <Zakim> -Mark
15:02:34 <fsasaki> .. you need additional information
15:02:50 <fsasaki> Richard: could someone summarize where we are now?
15:03:02 <fsasaki> Francois: I could try, but I would be biased
15:03:33 <fsasaki> Richard: we could set up a wiki
15:05:30 <fsasaki> action: Richard to create a wiki for the LTLI discussion, Francois to make a summary of the current discussion
15:05:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
15:05:56 <fsasaki> topic: other business
15:06:06 <Zakim> -fyergeau
15:06:06 <fsasaki> Felix: charmod, I'll bring it up on the mailing list
15:06:08 <Zakim> -Mary
15:06:09 <Zakim> -Richard
15:06:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
15:06:13 <Zakim> -Felix
15:06:23 <Zakim> -Karunesh
15:06:24 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
15:06:27 <Zakim> Attendees were [IBM], Richard, Felix, Mary, Vijay, [IPcaller], fyergeau, Mark
15:07:16 <fsasaki> present: Felix, Francois, Karunesh, Mark, Richard, Vijay
15:07:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
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