12:55:08 RRSAgent has joined #HTMLTF 12:55:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-irc 12:55:15 Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force 12:55:18 Chair: Ben 12:55:45 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jul/0005.html 12:56:08 agenda+ Review of WWW2006 12:56:16 agenda+ Status of various implementations 12:56:24 agenda+ Status of various issues raised on the mailing list 13:00:26 zakim, dial steven-617 13:00:27 ok, Steven; the call is being made 13:00:28 SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started 13:00:28 +Steven 13:00:36 Previous: 2006-05-15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006May/0019.html 13:01:00 +Ralph 13:02:23 +Ben_Adida 13:02:25 -Ben_Adida 13:02:26 +Ben_Adida 13:04:40 Steven: I've given 2 talks in the past two months including RDFa 13:04:52 briansuda has joined #htmltf 13:04:56 ... one to a Dutch HCI conference about future interfaces 13:05:11 ... I talked about how RDFa can improve the user experience by permitting the browser to do more 13:05:34 ... then gave a modified version of the same talk to a Web 2.0 conference 13:05:58 ... was less technical; I talked about how RDFa could mean less work for people producing Web sites 13:06:33 ... also, I was interviewed on radio and for print magazines; should be published in the next month 13:06:44 ... a business-oriented Dutch IT newsletter 13:07:14 ... I have a link to the radio interview on my home page 13:07:30 MarkB_ has joined #htmltf 13:07:40 +[IBMCambridge] 13:08:02 Steven: business people have been very receptive to the whole story 13:08:12 EliasT has joined #htmltf 13:08:23 zakim, ibm is EliasT 13:08:23 sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'ibm' 13:08:26 +??P14 13:08:30 zakim, i am ? 13:08:30 +MarkB_; got it 13:08:32 zakim, ibmCambridge is EliasT 13:08:32 +EliasT; got it 13:08:33 Zakim, ??P!4 is me 13:08:33 sorry, EliasT, I do not recognize a party named '??P!4' 13:08:50 zakim, ??p14 is MarkB 13:08:50 I already had ??P14 as MarkB_, RalphS 13:09:08 Zakim, who's on the phone? 13:09:08 On the phone I see Steven, Ralph, Ben_Adida, EliasT, MarkB_ 13:09:11 Elias: I will be focussing on RDFa for IBM 13:10:18 Elias: eh-LEE-us 13:10:52 ... Wayne Lee (IBM) just added RDFa support on top of jena; may have a demo later 13:11:04 Wing Yung 13:11:10 s/Wayne Lee/Wing Yung/ 13:11:37 benadida has joined #htmltf 13:11:55 Scribe: Ralph 13:12:19 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#ActionSummary Previous Actions 13:12:48 agenda? 13:13:11 Ben: as we're in limbo between the two WGs let's focus on the implementations for now 13:13:53 Ralph: Guus and Tom Baker are out during July/August, so SWD starts in September 13:15:38 wing has joined #htmltf 13:16:00 Mark: the tutorial document has some things that do not quite match the spec 13:16:33 Ralph: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/ SemWeb Deployment WG charter 13:16:44 Ben: there is an aggressive schedule in the SWD charter 13:17:03 ... there are some hard issues raised on the mailing list 13:17:06 Zakim, mute me 13:17:06 EliasT should now be muted 13:17:25 ... but we should not try to resolve them until [SWD formally starts in] September 13:18:14 ... however, it's ok to fix things in editor's drafts 13:18:33 Mark: it's just that people trying to implement RDFa have noted conflicting details between the two documents 13:18:49 ... things like the use of the role attribute 13:19:04 ... the primer uses role in a certain way but the spec doesn't talk about role 13:19:23 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/ 13:19:25 Ben: the most important thing we can do for the next 6 weeks is update our issues list 13:19:30 I sent a few bugs in the spec that don't require WG approval but need patching. 13:19:41 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jul/ TF mailing list 13:20:04 Here are my comments 13:20:06 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0008.html 13:20:47 Steven: there are some unanswered comments 13:20:59 ... we should make sure we've addressed comments 13:21:10 Zakim, unmute me 13:21:10 EliasT should no longer be muted 13:21:26 Ben: Lee Feigenbaum also sent some spec comments 13:21:46 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html Lee's comments 13:21:50 ACTION: Ben update the issues list 13:23:58 ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] 13:24:09 Ben: I propose to withdraw this as it was mostly for the Edinburg demos 13:24:17 Ralph: is it not interesting outside of a demo context? 13:24:40 Ben: but it's only useful to run the bookmarklet locally if you're also running a local Web server, due to javascript security sandboxing 13:25:04 Mark: if a user chooses to configure it to run locally, would it be useful? 13:25:18 Ben: but that configuration would open a security hole for other javascript 13:25:39 Mark: I'm not sure there's no way to configure things to only support certain javascript 13:25:48 Elias: do what tabulator does? 13:25:51 http://esw.w3.org/topic/SparqlCalendarDemoUsage 13:26:16 ... signed applet base principal support 13:26:41 Ben: bookmarklet does not the same one, but I'm glad to see the changes 13:27:04 ... if you want to give the bookmarklet any rights then the page you're viewing when you activate the bookmarklet would inherit the same rights 13:27:34 ... the attack paths are complicated but we should not recommend that people open these vulnerabilities 13:29:08 Elias: though the name of the option 'signed.applets.codebase_principal_support' does imply signed applets, tabulator is not an applet and is using this option 13:29:29 Ben: it does appear that the tabulator approach is much better than the previous hack 13:30:26 Ben: our goal should be to help people try out RDFa 13:30:37 -- action continues 13:31:00 Mark: you'd also considered using greasemonkey 13:31:02 Ben: yep 13:31:08 ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] 13:31:10 -- continues 13:31:25 ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03] 13:31:27 -- continues 13:31:46 Ben: I got some great feedback from Steven on draft response 13:31:49 ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] 13:31:51 -- continues 13:31:55 ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] 13:32:02 -- continues 13:32:16 Steven: XHTML2 editors' draft is just about ready. 13:32:27 ... remaining issue is the new wording to describe role 13:32:40 ... hope to have the draft ready before the next telecon 13:32:52 Ben: will this correct the spec mistakes? 13:33:13 Mark: I'll have to check -- the issue we've been discussing is the wording for 'role' 13:34:20 ACTION: Ben fix content negotiation on his current personal Web hosting site to make http://ben.adida.net/card (w/o ".html") work again 13:34:26 move to next agendum 13:34:26 agendum 1. "Review of WWW2006" taken up [from RalphS] 13:34:33 Ben: there were 3 talks about RDFa 13:34:40 ... a W3C AC Meeting lightning talk 13:34:47 ... I've posted my slides 13:34:59 @@ scribe to find URI 13:35:10 ... there was a lively discussion afterward 13:35:19 ... there were two talks at WWW2006 conference 13:35:20 -> http://ben.adida.net/presentations/ Ben's Presentations for WWW2006 13:35:40 ... one from developer's point of view, other just from SemWeb point of view 13:35:53 -> http://rdfa.info/category/presentations/ rdfa presentations 13:36:07 ... there were microformats talks before each one so I pointed out the additional benefits of RDFa, including scaling 13:37:07 ... a developer from AOL building widgets looking for general ways to describe data was interested in the features of RDFa over microformats 13:37:22 ... some questions about XHTML modules; we don't have complete answers to these yet 13:37:42 Kevin Lawver of AOL 13:38:03 ... sweetwiki using RDFa; they gave me a bit of material to include in a slide 13:39:19 Mark: it's a good time to come in with a full solution as people are starting to look at microformats more closely 13:39:33 -> http://ws2006.wikisym.org/space/Paper%3E%3ESweetWiki-Semantic+WEb+Enabled+Technologies+in+Wiki Paper>>SweetWiki-Semantic WEb Enabled Technologies in Wiki 13:39:55 -> http://sweetwiki.pbwiki.com/ sweetwiki 13:40:29 Steven: the tone of the microformats presentations were "we create microformats and you use them" 13:41:16 ... in retrospect, about the CURIE debate, people really did not understand what the issues were 13:41:32 ... people really needed a tutorial about CURIEs before the debate 13:42:01 ... and the actual debate unraveled over things that were not specific to CURIEs 13:42:17 Ben: if we drop CURIEs we lose a lot of our bnode support 13:42:24 ... so it's not just the IPTC issue 13:42:39 Mark: I'm only proposing that in the XHTML2 spec we refer only to QName 13:42:49 ... we can update later assuming CURIE is a superset of QName 13:47:01 Elias: it was good to focus on the differences added by RDFa 13:47:29 ... the philosophy if RDFa is what makes it important for us versus microformats; scaling, etc. 13:47:36 s/ if / of / 13:47:57 ... the problem is in the timliness of the presentations; people are saying "but microformats are already here" 13:48:07 ... this just shows the urgency of our work 13:53:13 close this agendum 13:53:24 take up agendum 2 13:53:39 Ben: my javascript implementation has been moved to www.w3.org 13:53:43 Zakim, mute me 13:53:43 EliasT should now be muted 13:53:54 ... I will send a summary about this to the WG 13:54:05 ... nothing much has changed since the end of May 13:54:16 ... there are now dated versions 13:54:25 ... I would really like to make this work in greasemonkey 13:54:34 Zakim, unmute me 13:54:34 EliasT should no longer be muted 13:54:52 http://torrez.us/rdfa/ -> RDFa service. 13:55:11 ->http://rdflib.net/ Now part of RDFLib 13:55:30 Elias: I wrote a sax-based parser to extract RDFa 13:55:34 ... the code was not complex 13:55:45 http://ben.adida.net/card.xhtml 13:55:56 ... then I deployed a service to do this extraction 13:56:02 ... dumping the output as triples 13:56:17 http://torrez.us/srevices/rdfa/[url] 13:56:33 SELECT * FROM http://torrez.us/srevices/rdfa/[url] WHERE { ... } 13:57:00 Elias: so now we can put RDFa anywhere in the Web and query it with SPARQL 13:57:23 http://abdera.watson.ibm.com:8080/browser/ 13:57:35 http://wingerz.com/blog/?p=35 13:57:42 ... we just deployed a browser yesterday 13:57:51 http://torrez.us/archives/2006/07/17/471/ 13:57:58 ... see Wing's post 13:58:13 ... we implemented the ATOM protocol to post entries to our endpoint 13:58:17 ... we store these posts as RDF 13:58:37 ... if the content-type is XHTML we run the java parser and add more triples to the graph 13:58:43 ... we only store the RDF version 13:58:54 http://abdera.watson.ibm.com:8080/browser/sparql/ 13:59:06 briansuda has joined #htmltf 13:59:08 ^ a sparql endpoind 13:59:15 s/poind/point/ 13:59:16 urn:lsid:abdera.watson.ibm.com:entries:397859049 13:59:20 ... click on graph 13:59:31 ... add the URI to ATOM entry 13:59:35 ... uncheck introspection 14:01:30 Elias: what this shows is a data store service that you update using ATOM 14:01:39 ... and you extend this using RDFa 14:01:57 DOesn't seem to work in Opera 14:02:50 I don't seem to be having much success with Mozilla either 14:03:08 Elias: Tim Bray may demo this at OSCON 14:03:26 ... I've fixed all the bugs that TimB found 14:05:39 Mark: I don't like that role is becoming rdf:type 14:06:49 Ben: do we agree that rel does not use '[]'? 14:07:18 Mark: yes, we only mention '[]' in the CURIE document where we say the brackets are only needed if there is a possibility of confusion between a URI and a CURIE 14:07:31 ... so the p=35 blog example is wrong 14:09:18 Ben: the GRDDL transform for RDFa/XHTML2 will recognized the values of rel that are defined in the HTML spec and expand them to xhtml:; other values for rel will be handled differently 14:10:43 Elias: I am constantly faced with how to make embedding of RDF practical 14:10:45 -Ben_Adida 14:11:09 [adjourned] 14:11:11 -EliasT 14:11:12 -MarkB_ 14:11:13 -Steven 14:11:16 -Ralph 14:11:17 SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended 14:11:18 Attendees were Steven, Ralph, Ben_Adida, MarkB_, EliasT 14:11:26 I just got disconnected 14:11:38 no more phone battery 14:11:48 can we meet next week same time? 14:12:19 did everyone get disconnected? 14:13:23 we hung up. 14:13:32 same time next week OK with me 14:13:47 next time I'll charge my phone more fully :) 14:13:56 Elias, thanks for a fantastic demo 14:14:00 +1 14:14:46 send me an email list of people to credit? 14:14:58 sorry, I mean, send me, by email, a list of people to credit 14:15:32 k. I willl. 14:17:19 rrsagent, please make this record public 14:17:27 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:17:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html RalphS 14:18:57 benadida has left #htmltf 16:05:00 Zakim has left #HTMLTF