IRC log of HTMLTF on 2006-07-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:55:08 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-irc

12:55:15 [RalphS]

Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

12:55:18 [RalphS]

Chair: Ben

12:55:45 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jul/0005.html

12:56:08 [RalphS]

agenda+ Review of WWW2006

12:56:16 [RalphS]

agenda+ Status of various implementations

12:56:24 [RalphS]

agenda+ Status of various issues raised on the mailing list

13:00:26 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:00:27 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:00:28 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started

13:00:28 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:00:36 [RalphS]

Previous: 2006-05-15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006May/0019.html

13:01:00 [Zakim]

+Ralph

13:02:23 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

13:02:25 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

13:02:26 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

13:04:40 [RalphS]

Steven: I've given 2 talks in the past two months including RDFa

13:04:52 [briansuda]

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13:04:56 [RalphS]

... one to a Dutch HCI conference about future interfaces

13:05:11 [RalphS]

... I talked about how RDFa can improve the user experience by permitting the browser to do more

13:05:34 [RalphS]

... then gave a modified version of the same talk to a Web 2.0 conference

13:05:58 [RalphS]

... was less technical; I talked about how RDFa could mean less work for people producing Web sites

13:06:33 [RalphS]

... also, I was interviewed on radio and for print magazines; should be published in the next month

13:06:44 [RalphS]

... a business-oriented Dutch IT newsletter

13:07:14 [RalphS]

... I have a link to the radio interview on my home page

13:07:30 [MarkB_]

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13:07:40 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

13:08:02 [RalphS]

Steven: business people have been very receptive to the whole story

13:08:12 [EliasT]

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13:08:23 [RalphS]

zakim, ibm is EliasT

13:08:23 [Zakim]

sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'ibm'

13:08:26 [Zakim]

+??P14

13:08:30 [MarkB_]

zakim, i am ?

13:08:30 [Zakim]

+MarkB_; got it

13:08:32 [RalphS]

zakim, ibmCambridge is EliasT

13:08:32 [Zakim]

+EliasT; got it

13:08:33 [EliasT]

Zakim, ??P!4 is me

13:08:33 [Zakim]

sorry, EliasT, I do not recognize a party named '??P!4'

13:08:50 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p14 is MarkB

13:08:50 [Zakim]

I already had ??P14 as MarkB_, RalphS

13:09:08 [EliasT]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

13:09:08 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Steven, Ralph, Ben_Adida, EliasT, MarkB_

13:09:11 [RalphS]

Elias: I will be focussing on RDFa for IBM

13:10:18 [RalphS]

Elias: eh-LEE-us

13:10:52 [RalphS]

... Wayne Lee (IBM) just added RDFa support on top of jena; may have a demo later

13:11:04 [EliasT]

Wing Yung

13:11:10 [RalphS]

s/Wayne Lee/Wing Yung/

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13:11:55 [RalphS]

Scribe: Ralph

13:12:19 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#ActionSummary Previous Actions

13:12:48 [RalphS]

agenda?

13:13:11 [RalphS]

Ben: as we're in limbo between the two WGs let's focus on the implementations for now

13:13:53 [benadida]

Ralph: Guus and Tom Baker are out during July/August, so SWD starts in September

13:15:38 [wing]

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13:16:00 [RalphS]

Mark: the tutorial document has some things that do not quite match the spec

13:16:33 [RalphS]

Ralph: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/ SemWeb Deployment WG charter

13:16:44 [RalphS]

Ben: there is an aggressive schedule in the SWD charter

13:17:03 [RalphS]

... there are some hard issues raised on the mailing list

13:17:06 [EliasT]

Zakim, mute me

13:17:06 [Zakim]

EliasT should now be muted

13:17:25 [RalphS]

... but we should not try to resolve them until [SWD formally starts in] September

13:18:14 [RalphS]

... however, it's ok to fix things in editor's drafts

13:18:33 [RalphS]

Mark: it's just that people trying to implement RDFa have noted conflicting details between the two documents

13:18:49 [RalphS]

... things like the use of the role attribute

13:19:04 [RalphS]

... the primer uses role in a certain way but the spec doesn't talk about role

13:19:23 [benadida]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/

13:19:25 [RalphS]

Ben: the most important thing we can do for the next 6 weeks is update our issues list

13:19:30 [EliasT]

I sent a few bugs in the spec that don't require WG approval but need patching.

13:19:41 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jul/ TF mailing list

13:20:04 [EliasT]

Here are my comments

13:20:06 [EliasT]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0008.html

13:20:47 [RalphS]

Steven: there are some unanswered comments

13:20:59 [RalphS]

... we should make sure we've addressed comments

13:21:10 [EliasT]

Zakim, unmute me

13:21:10 [Zakim]

EliasT should no longer be muted

13:21:26 [RalphS]

Ben: Lee Feigenbaum also sent some spec comments

13:21:46 [EliasT]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html Lee's comments

13:21:50 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben update the issues list

13:23:58 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

13:24:09 [RalphS]

Ben: I propose to withdraw this as it was mostly for the Edinburg demos

13:24:17 [RalphS]

Ralph: is it not interesting outside of a demo context?

13:24:40 [RalphS]

Ben: but it's only useful to run the bookmarklet locally if you're also running a local Web server, due to javascript security sandboxing

13:25:04 [RalphS]

Mark: if a user chooses to configure it to run locally, would it be useful?

13:25:18 [RalphS]

Ben: but that configuration would open a security hole for other javascript

13:25:39 [RalphS]

Mark: I'm not sure there's no way to configure things to only support certain javascript

13:25:48 [RalphS]

Elias: do what tabulator does?

13:25:51 [EliasT]

http://esw.w3.org/topic/SparqlCalendarDemoUsage

13:26:16 [RalphS]

... signed applet base principal support

13:26:41 [RalphS]

Ben: bookmarklet does not the same one, but I'm glad to see the changes

13:27:04 [RalphS]

... if you want to give the bookmarklet any rights then the page you're viewing when you activate the bookmarklet would inherit the same rights

13:27:34 [RalphS]

... the attack paths are complicated but we should not recommend that people open these vulnerabilities

13:29:08 [RalphS]

Elias: though the name of the option 'signed.applets.codebase_principal_support' does imply signed applets, tabulator is not an applet and is using this option

13:29:29 [RalphS]

Ben: it does appear that the tabulator approach is much better than the previous hack

13:30:26 [RalphS]

Ben: our goal should be to help people try out RDFa

13:30:37 [RalphS]

-- action continues

13:31:00 [RalphS]

Mark: you'd also considered using greasemonkey

13:31:02 [RalphS]

Ben: yep

13:31:08 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]

13:31:10 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:31:25 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03]

13:31:27 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:31:46 [RalphS]

Ben: I got some great feedback from Steven on draft response

13:31:49 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]

13:31:51 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:31:55 [RalphS]

ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

13:32:02 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:32:16 [RalphS]

Steven: XHTML2 editors' draft is just about ready.

13:32:27 [RalphS]

... remaining issue is the new wording to describe role

13:32:40 [RalphS]

... hope to have the draft ready before the next telecon

13:32:52 [RalphS]

Ben: will this correct the spec mistakes?

13:33:13 [RalphS]

Mark: I'll have to check -- the issue we've been discussing is the wording for 'role'

13:34:20 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben fix content negotiation on his current personal Web hosting site to make http://ben.adida.net/card (w/o ".html") work again

13:34:26 [RalphS]

move to next agendum

13:34:26 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Review of WWW2006" taken up [from RalphS]

13:34:33 [RalphS]

Ben: there were 3 talks about RDFa

13:34:40 [RalphS]

... a W3C AC Meeting lightning talk

13:34:47 [RalphS]

... I've posted my slides

13:34:59 [RalphS]

@@ scribe to find URI

13:35:10 [RalphS]

... there was a lively discussion afterward

13:35:19 [RalphS]

... there were two talks at WWW2006 conference

13:35:20 [EliasT]

-> http://ben.adida.net/presentations/ Ben's Presentations for WWW2006

13:35:40 [RalphS]

... one from developer's point of view, other just from SemWeb point of view

13:35:53 [EliasT]

-> http://rdfa.info/category/presentations/ rdfa presentations

13:36:07 [RalphS]

... there were microformats talks before each one so I pointed out the additional benefits of RDFa, including scaling

13:37:07 [RalphS]

... a developer from AOL building widgets looking for general ways to describe data was interested in the features of RDFa over microformats

13:37:22 [RalphS]

... some questions about XHTML modules; we don't have complete answers to these yet

13:37:42 [EliasT]

Kevin Lawver of AOL

13:38:03 [RalphS]

... sweetwiki using RDFa; they gave me a bit of material to include in a slide

13:39:19 [RalphS]

Mark: it's a good time to come in with a full solution as people are starting to look at microformats more closely

13:39:33 [RalphS]

-> http://ws2006.wikisym.org/space/Paper%3E%3ESweetWiki-Semantic+WEb+Enabled+Technologies+in+Wiki Paper>>SweetWiki-Semantic WEb Enabled Technologies in Wiki

13:39:55 [RalphS]

-> http://sweetwiki.pbwiki.com/ sweetwiki

13:40:29 [RalphS]

Steven: the tone of the microformats presentations were "we create microformats and you use them"

13:41:16 [RalphS]

... in retrospect, about the CURIE debate, people really did not understand what the issues were

13:41:32 [RalphS]

... people really needed a tutorial about CURIEs before the debate

13:42:01 [RalphS]

... and the actual debate unraveled over things that were not specific to CURIEs

13:42:17 [RalphS]

Ben: if we drop CURIEs we lose a lot of our bnode support

13:42:24 [RalphS]

... so it's not just the IPTC issue

13:42:39 [RalphS]

Mark: I'm only proposing that in the XHTML2 spec we refer only to QName

13:42:49 [RalphS]

... we can update later assuming CURIE is a superset of QName

13:47:01 [RalphS]

Elias: it was good to focus on the differences added by RDFa

13:47:29 [RalphS]

... the philosophy if RDFa is what makes it important for us versus microformats; scaling, etc.

13:47:36 [RalphS]

s/ if / of /

13:47:57 [RalphS]

... the problem is in the timliness of the presentations; people are saying "but microformats are already here"

13:48:07 [RalphS]

... this just shows the urgency of our work

13:53:13 [RalphS]

close this agendum

13:53:24 [RalphS]

take up agendum 2

13:53:39 [RalphS]

Ben: my javascript implementation has been moved to www.w3.org

13:53:43 [EliasT]

Zakim, mute me

13:53:43 [Zakim]

EliasT should now be muted

13:53:54 [RalphS]

... I will send a summary about this to the WG

13:54:05 [RalphS]

... nothing much has changed since the end of May

13:54:16 [RalphS]

... there are now dated versions

13:54:25 [RalphS]

... I would really like to make this work in greasemonkey

13:54:34 [EliasT]

Zakim, unmute me

13:54:34 [Zakim]

EliasT should no longer be muted

13:54:52 [EliasT]

http://torrez.us/rdfa/ -> RDFa service.

13:55:11 [EliasT]

->http://rdflib.net/ Now part of RDFLib

13:55:30 [RalphS]

Elias: I wrote a sax-based parser to extract RDFa

13:55:34 [RalphS]

... the code was not complex

13:55:45 [EliasT]

http://ben.adida.net/card.xhtml

13:55:56 [RalphS]

... then I deployed a service to do this extraction

13:56:02 [RalphS]

... dumping the output as triples

13:56:17 [EliasT]

http://torrez.us/srevices/rdfa/[url]

13:56:33 [EliasT]

SELECT * FROM http://torrez.us/srevices/rdfa/[url] WHERE { ... }

13:57:00 [RalphS]

Elias: so now we can put RDFa anywhere in the Web and query it with SPARQL

13:57:23 [EliasT]

http://abdera.watson.ibm.com:8080/browser/

13:57:35 [EliasT]

http://wingerz.com/blog/?p=35

13:57:42 [RalphS]

... we just deployed a browser yesterday

13:57:51 [EliasT]

http://torrez.us/archives/2006/07/17/471/

13:57:58 [RalphS]

... see Wing's post

13:58:13 [RalphS]

... we implemented the ATOM protocol to post entries to our endpoint

13:58:17 [RalphS]

... we store these posts as RDF

13:58:37 [RalphS]

... if the content-type is XHTML we run the java parser and add more triples to the graph

13:58:43 [RalphS]

... we only store the RDF version

13:58:54 [EliasT]

http://abdera.watson.ibm.com:8080/browser/sparql/

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13:59:08 [RalphS]

^ a sparql endpoind

13:59:15 [RalphS]

s/poind/point/

13:59:16 [EliasT]

urn:lsid:abdera.watson.ibm.com:entries:397859049

13:59:20 [RalphS]

... click on graph

13:59:31 [RalphS]

... add the URI to ATOM entry

13:59:35 [RalphS]

... uncheck introspection

14:01:30 [RalphS]

Elias: what this shows is a data store service that you update using ATOM

14:01:39 [RalphS]

... and you extend this using RDFa

14:01:57 [Steven]

DOesn't seem to work in Opera

14:02:50 [RalphS]

I don't seem to be having much success with Mozilla either

14:03:08 [RalphS]

Elias: Tim Bray may demo this at OSCON

14:03:26 [RalphS]

... I've fixed all the bugs that TimB found

14:05:39 [RalphS]

Mark: I don't like that role is becoming rdf:type

14:06:49 [RalphS]

Ben: do we agree that rel does not use '[]'?

14:07:18 [RalphS]

Mark: yes, we only mention '[]' in the CURIE document where we say the brackets are only needed if there is a possibility of confusion between a URI and a CURIE

14:07:31 [RalphS]

... so the p=35 blog example is wrong

14:09:18 [RalphS]

Ben: the GRDDL transform for RDFa/XHTML2 will recognized the values of rel that are defined in the HTML spec and expand them to xhtml:<value>; other values for rel will be handled differently

14:10:43 [RalphS]

Elias: I am constantly faced with how to make embedding of RDF practical

14:10:45 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

14:11:09 [RalphS]

[adjourned]

14:11:11 [Zakim]

-EliasT

14:11:12 [Zakim]

-MarkB_

14:11:13 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:11:16 [Zakim]

-Ralph

14:11:17 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended

14:11:18 [Zakim]

Attendees were Steven, Ralph, Ben_Adida, MarkB_, EliasT

14:11:26 [benadida]

I just got disconnected

14:11:38 [benadida]

no more phone battery

14:11:48 [benadida]

can we meet next week same time?

14:12:19 [benadida]

did everyone get disconnected?

14:13:23 [EliasT]

we hung up.

14:13:32 [RalphS]

same time next week OK with me

14:13:47 [benadida]

next time I'll charge my phone more fully :)

14:13:56 [benadida]

Elias, thanks for a fantastic demo

14:14:00 [RalphS]

+1

14:14:46 [benadida]

send me an email list of people to credit?

14:14:58 [benadida]

sorry, I mean, send me, by email, a list of people to credit

14:15:32 [EliasT]

k. I willl.

14:17:19 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make this record public

14:17:27 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

14:17:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html RalphS

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