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14:49:21 <Norm> zakim, this will be xproc
14:49:21 <Zakim> ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:49:57 <Norm> Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
14:49:57 <Norm> Scribe: Norm
14:49:57 <Norm> ScribeNick: Norm
14:49:57 <Norm> Date: 13 July 2006
14:49:57 <Norm> Chair: Norm
14:49:58 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/07/13-agenda.html
14:50:00 <Norm> Meeting: 28
14:51:38 <Alessandro> Alessandro has joined #xproc
14:57:32 <PGrosso> PGrosso has joined #xproc
14:59:01 <Norm> MSM, old ETA was today + 1 week :-)
14:59:49 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:58 <Zakim> +Norm
15:00:26 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #xproc
15:00:43 <Zakim> +[ArborText]
15:00:54 <MoZ> Zakim, what is the code?
15:00:54 <Zakim> the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), MoZ
15:01:13 <Zakim> +Alessandro_Vernet
15:01:42 <Zakim> +??P3
15:01:59 <Norm> zakim, ??P3 is MoZ
15:01:59 <Zakim> +MoZ; got it
15:02:28 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet, MoZ
15:04:22 <alexmilowski> alexmilowski has joined #xproc
15:05:49 <AndrewF> AndrewF has joined #xproc
15:05:57 <Zakim> +Alex_Milowski
15:06:29 <Norm> zakim, mute alex_milowski
15:06:29 <Zakim> Alex_Milowski should now be muted
15:06:37 <Zakim> +??P41
15:06:37 <Norm> zakim, unmute alex_milowski
15:06:39 <Zakim> Alex_Milowski should no longer be muted
15:06:43 <AndrewF> zakim, ? is AndrewF
15:06:43 <Zakim> +AndrewF; got it
15:08:29 <MoZ> MSM are you around ?
15:08:49 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:08:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet, MoZ, Alex_Milowski, AndrewF
15:09:35 <Norm> Present: Alessandro, Mohamed, Norman, Paul, Alex, Andrew
15:09:39 <Norm> Regrets: Murray
15:09:45 <Norm> Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:09:45 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/07/13-agenda.html
15:09:53 <Norm> Accepted.
15:09:59 <Norm> Topic: Accept minutes from the previous teleconference?
15:10:11 <Norm> Norm, since they were never published
15:10:12 <Norm> Topic: Next meeting: 20 July
15:10:12 <Norm> Any regrets?
15:10:26 <Norm> None given.
15:10:29 <Norm> Topic: Face-to-face: 2-4 Aug 2006.
15:10:29 <Norm> Registration is closed. Make sure your arrangements are in order.
15:10:42 <MSM> zakim, please call Michael-Office
15:10:42 <Zakim> ok, MSM; the call is being made
15:10:42 <MoZ> hurray !
15:10:43 <Zakim> +Michael
15:11:27 <Norm> Topic: Review of open action items
15:11:53 <Norm> A-27-01
15:11:54 <Norm> Completed
15:12:04 <Norm> A-27-02: Norm to write up some straw syntaxes for some of the use cases
15:12:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:12:27 <Norm> Continued.
15:12:40 <Norm> A-23-02: Richard to write a syntax proposal
15:12:40 <rlopes> zakim [IP is Rui
15:12:42 <Norm> Continued.
15:12:49 <Norm> A-23-03: Norm to write a syntax proposal
15:12:50 <Norm> Continued
15:12:54 <rlopes> zakim, +[IP is Rui
15:12:54 <Zakim> sorry, rlopes, I do not recognize a party named '+[IP'
15:12:55 <Norm> A-13-01: MSM to draft a complete table; ETA: 20 July 2006
15:12:58 <Norm> Continued.
15:13:10 <Norm> Topic: XProc syntax
15:13:15 <rlopes> zakim, [IP is Rui
15:13:15 <Zakim> +Rui; got it
15:14:10 <Norm> Alex: I worked through some of my examples.
15:16:05 <Norm> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jul/0002.html
15:16:51 <Norm> Alex: Maybe it's easier to look at the large document example
15:17:12 <Norm> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jul/0016.html
15:17:44 <Norm> Norm: Is this the one you had in mind?
15:17:46 <Norm> Alex: Yes
15:17:57 <Norm> ...There's one tweak, the 'from' attribute is wrong in this one.
15:18:25 <Norm> ...The idea is that you are selecting an expression (@select) over an input document (@over)
15:18:36 <Norm> ...The thing you select has to be an element, so that it can be made into a document.
15:18:48 <Norm> ...That's provide as input labeled "iteration" (@to)
15:19:08 <Norm> ...The output of the for-each is the input that's been processed.
15:19:37 <alexmilowski>  <p:for-each select="section" over="large-doc" to="iteration" replacement="transformed">
15:19:37 <alexmilowski>       <!-- input isn't needed here because this "for-each" has
15:19:37 <alexmilowski>            to iterate over elements.  The input is identified by
15:19:37 <alexmilowski>            the 'over' attribute and the binding for each result
15:19:37 <alexmilowski>            element is specified by the 'to' attribute. -->
15:19:38 <alexmilowski>       <p:output name="final" from="large-document"/>
15:21:12 <Norm> ...So in this example, the output is a little funny
15:21:23 <Norm> Some discussion which the scribe couldn't follow
15:23:44 <Norm> Norm attempts to summarize
15:26:02 <Norm> Alex: The way I've been using the output element is that there's a name for it and a from that refers to whatever you're labelling
15:26:11 <Norm> ...So what is the from?
15:26:22 <Norm> ...In the case of a normal step, it'd be something the component defined.
15:30:07 <Norm> Norm and Alex attempt to come to an understanding...
15:30:49 <Norm> Alex: The p:output can't be from 'transformed' because that's just the inner result. And it can't be 'large-doc' because it's not large-doc, it's large-doc after modification.
15:32:09 <alexmilowski> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jul/0028.html
15:33:21 <Norm> Norm: This suggestion makes p:for-each something like a p:output in the sense that it defines a label for its output
15:34:09 <Norm> Alex: I think an issue we should raise for later is whether there's some grand unification of this and iterating over documents. We should make sure we come back to that.
15:34:32 <Norm> ...It would be unfortunate if we couldn't extend this to the concept of iterating over sequences of documents
15:35:32 <Norm> Norm: This example has multiple steps
15:36:10 <Norm> Norm: You've used the explicit naming of each input and output as opposed to the alternative which was naming though the step name.
15:36:28 <Norm> Alex: I said no defaults, no magic, no prefixing.
15:37:09 <Norm> Norm: Ok, so that was a significant part of your proposal.
15:37:19 <Norm> Alex: In the end, I think it might be very confusing to users.
15:37:23 <Norm> Norm: I'm inclined to agree.
15:38:10 <MoZ> Alex, are steps systematicaly anonymous ?
15:38:53 <Norm> Norm: Anything else we should spend time discussing?
15:39:40 <Norm> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jul/0017.html
15:40:31 <Norm> Alex: Most interesting bit is the p:url step
15:40:33 <alexmilowski> http://www.smallx.com/tideinfo/
15:40:45 <alexmilowski> http://www.smallx.com/tideinfo-service/
15:44:08 <Norm> Alex: The url step performs an http action and possibly massages the result (based on content-type) to produce a well-formed XML result
15:44:24 <Norm> Alex: The following steps cleanup and filter the result data.
15:45:08 <Norm> Alex: There's nothing earth shattering here except for the retrieval step.
15:45:36 <Norm> ...I could have done this through XSLT using document() calls, but that would require XSLT to be able to handle HTML documents
15:47:03 <Norm> Alessandro: the only thing I see are purely syntactic. What's the best name for these attributes, for example?
15:47:05 <Norm> Naming is hard.
15:47:54 <Norm> Alex: The naming issues and not having defaults haven't really been an issue for me. That makes me pretty comfortable with a first-round story that doesn't have any defaults.
15:48:32 <Norm> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jul/0019.html
15:49:00 <Norm> Alex: The biggest thing to not here are the parameters.
15:49:20 <Norm> ...There's one input that contains two elements. I'm going to need those lots of times.
15:50:02 <Norm> ...So I grab them right at the beginning.
15:53:27 <Norm> Alex: There's a whole question of if you use parameters, where are they available. Is it implicit or explicit? Etc.
15:53:43 <Norm> Alex: This is a straight-through pipe. In fact it has to stream because the output of the last two steps can blow up to millions of elements.
15:54:49 <Norm> Norm: Are you making parameters copies or pointers to a document?
15:54:53 <Norm> Alex: I'm making copies.
15:57:29 <Norm> Alex: There are two interesting things: I have a bunch of custom steps, how do we deal with those, and I have a need to reuse the inputs to the pipeline at a later part, what's the right way to do that? With parameters? Or an input dependency? And how would that work.
15:57:34 <Norm> s/work./work?/
15:58:20 <Norm> Topic: Any other business?
15:58:24 <Norm> None.
15:58:50 <Norm> Scribe apologizes for rather poor minutes this week.
16:00:42 <Zakim> -Norm
16:00:43 <Zakim> -PGrosso
16:00:44 <Zakim> -Rui
16:00:46 <Zakim> -Alessandro_Vernet
16:00:47 <Zakim> -MoZ
16:00:47 <Zakim> -AndrewF
16:00:51 <PGrosso> PGrosso has left #xproc
16:00:52 <Zakim> -Michael
16:00:57 <alexmilowski> alexmilowski has left #xproc
16:04:08 <Norm> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:04:11 <Norm> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/13-xproc-minutes.html Norm
16:04:36 <Norm> Norm, remember to publish the $#@$#@ minutes!
16:05:53 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Alex_Milowski, in XML_PMWG()11:00AM
16:05:57 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
16:05:59 <Zakim> Attendees were Norm, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet, MoZ, Alex_Milowski, AndrewF, Michael, [IPcaller], Rui
16:39:45 <MoZ> Zakim, bye
16:39:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xproc
16:40:27 <MoZ> Rssagent, bye
17:44:27 <Norm> Norm has joined #xproc
18:24:52 <MoZ> Rssagent, quit
18:25:38 <MoZ> Norm, i didn't notice at the f2f that there won't be any telcon in july, is this the case ?
18:25:47 <MoZ> for xls
18:25:53 <MoZ> s/xls/xsl/
18:40:14 <Norm> I think so. I didn't really get a clear picture on that either
18:40:31 <Norm> I'm just going to wait until another agenda comes out, I think :-)
19:09:16 <MoZ> Norm, i was afraid that i lost some part of the discussion during f2f
19:09:23 <Norm> I don't think so
19:09:32 <MoZ> ...but i didn't sleep that much ;)
19:11:00 <MoZ> so it's official you will be at toronto, then montreal ?
19:12:18 <Norm> Yes! 
19:14:13 <MoZ> great
19:15:06 <Norm> You bet!
19:26:30 <MoZ> Extreme Anxiety is over...but what about Extreme Stress ?
19:30:58 <MoZ> Norm, any idea of what Sharon was speaking about we she said that "if any member could help" or something like for the tests suite ?
19:31:08 <Norm> Not off the top of my head
19:31:20 <Norm> Extreme Stress grows ever more extreme :-)
19:31:29 <Norm> There's a code-freeze for Java on Monday so I'm heads down bug fixing
19:31:59 <MoZ> on what part are you working ?
19:32:02 <MoZ> JAXP 
19:32:06 <MoZ> is it ?
19:37:12 <MoZ> JAXB too ?
19:41:39 <MoZ> Norm, it's java 6 Rc ?
19:41:56 <Norm> I'm working on JAXP 1.4 for Java 6 (whatever we call that these days)
19:43:15 <MoZ> ok good luck with bugs..
19:50:18 <Norm> thanks!
21:59:22 <MoZ> RSSAgent /help
21:59:30 <MoZ> RSSAgent leave
21:59:35 <MoZ> RSSAgent quit
21:59:40 <MoZ> RSSAgent thanks
21:59:47 <MoZ> RSSAgent, thanks
21:59:59 <MoZ> RSSAgent, help
22:00:15 <MoZ> RRSAgent bye
22:00:22 <MoZ> RRSAgent, bye
22:00:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items