IRC log of xproc on 2006-07-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:49:19 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:49:21 [Norm]
zakim, this will be xproc
14:49:21 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:49:57 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
14:49:57 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
14:49:57 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
14:49:57 [Norm]
Date: 13 July 2006
14:49:57 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
14:49:58 [Norm]
14:50:00 [Norm]
Meeting: 28
14:51:38 [Alessandro]
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14:59:01 [Norm]
MSM, old ETA was today + 1 week :-)
14:59:49 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
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15:00:26 [MoZ]
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15:00:43 [Zakim]
15:00:54 [MoZ]
Zakim, what is the code?
15:00:54 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), MoZ
15:01:13 [Zakim]
15:01:42 [Zakim]
15:01:59 [Norm]
zakim, ??P3 is MoZ
15:01:59 [Zakim]
+MoZ; got it
15:02:28 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet, MoZ
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15:06:29 [Norm]
zakim, mute alex_milowski
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Alex_Milowski should now be muted
15:06:37 [Zakim]
15:06:37 [Norm]
zakim, unmute alex_milowski
15:06:39 [Zakim]
Alex_Milowski should no longer be muted
15:06:43 [AndrewF]
zakim, ? is AndrewF
15:06:43 [Zakim]
+AndrewF; got it
15:08:29 [MoZ]
MSM are you around ?
15:08:49 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:08:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet, MoZ, Alex_Milowski, AndrewF
15:09:35 [Norm]
Present: Alessandro, Mohamed, Norman, Paul, Alex, Andrew
15:09:39 [Norm]
Regrets: Murray
15:09:45 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:09:45 [Norm]
15:09:53 [Norm]
15:09:59 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous teleconference?
15:10:11 [Norm]
Norm, since they were never published
15:10:12 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: 20 July
15:10:12 [Norm]
Any regrets?
15:10:26 [Norm]
None given.
15:10:29 [Norm]
Topic: Face-to-face: 2-4 Aug 2006.
15:10:29 [Norm]
Registration is closed. Make sure your arrangements are in order.
15:10:42 [MSM]
zakim, please call Michael-Office
15:10:42 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
15:10:42 [MoZ]
hurray !
15:10:43 [Zakim]
15:11:27 [Norm]
Topic: Review of open action items
15:11:53 [Norm]
15:11:54 [Norm]
15:12:04 [Norm]
A-27-02: Norm to write up some straw syntaxes for some of the use cases
15:12:26 [Zakim]
15:12:27 [Norm]
15:12:40 [Norm]
A-23-02: Richard to write a syntax proposal
15:12:40 [rlopes]
zakim [IP is Rui
15:12:42 [Norm]
15:12:49 [Norm]
A-23-03: Norm to write a syntax proposal
15:12:50 [Norm]
15:12:54 [rlopes]
zakim, +[IP is Rui
15:12:54 [Zakim]
sorry, rlopes, I do not recognize a party named '+[IP'
15:12:55 [Norm]
A-13-01: MSM to draft a complete table; ETA: 20 July 2006
15:12:58 [Norm]
15:13:10 [Norm]
Topic: XProc syntax
15:13:15 [rlopes]
zakim, [IP is Rui
15:13:15 [Zakim]
+Rui; got it
15:14:10 [Norm]
Alex: I worked through some of my examples.
15:16:05 [Norm]
15:16:51 [Norm]
Alex: Maybe it's easier to look at the large document example
15:17:12 [Norm]
15:17:44 [Norm]
Norm: Is this the one you had in mind?
15:17:46 [Norm]
Alex: Yes
15:17:57 [Norm]
...There's one tweak, the 'from' attribute is wrong in this one.
15:18:25 [Norm]
...The idea is that you are selecting an expression (@select) over an input document (@over)
15:18:36 [Norm]
...The thing you select has to be an element, so that it can be made into a document.
15:18:48 [Norm]
...That's provide as input labeled "iteration" (@to)
15:19:08 [Norm]
...The output of the for-each is the input that's been processed.
15:19:37 [alexmilowski]
<p:for-each select="section" over="large-doc" to="iteration" replacement="transformed">
15:19:37 [alexmilowski]
<!-- input isn't needed here because this "for-each" has
15:19:37 [alexmilowski]
to iterate over elements. The input is identified by
15:19:37 [alexmilowski]
the 'over' attribute and the binding for each result
15:19:37 [alexmilowski]
element is specified by the 'to' attribute. -->
15:19:38 [alexmilowski]
<p:output name="final" from="large-document"/>
15:21:12 [Norm]
...So in this example, the output is a little funny
15:21:23 [Norm]
Some discussion which the scribe couldn't follow
15:23:44 [Norm]
Norm attempts to summarize
15:26:02 [Norm]
Alex: The way I've been using the output element is that there's a name for it and a from that refers to whatever you're labelling
15:26:11 [Norm]
...So what is the from?
15:26:22 [Norm]
...In the case of a normal step, it'd be something the component defined.
15:30:07 [Norm]
Norm and Alex attempt to come to an understanding...
15:30:49 [Norm]
Alex: The p:output can't be from 'transformed' because that's just the inner result. And it can't be 'large-doc' because it's not large-doc, it's large-doc after modification.
15:32:09 [alexmilowski]
15:33:21 [Norm]
Norm: This suggestion makes p:for-each something like a p:output in the sense that it defines a label for its output
15:34:09 [Norm]
Alex: I think an issue we should raise for later is whether there's some grand unification of this and iterating over documents. We should make sure we come back to that.
15:34:32 [Norm]
...It would be unfortunate if we couldn't extend this to the concept of iterating over sequences of documents
15:35:32 [Norm]
Norm: This example has multiple steps
15:36:10 [Norm]
Norm: You've used the explicit naming of each input and output as opposed to the alternative which was naming though the step name.
15:36:28 [Norm]
Alex: I said no defaults, no magic, no prefixing.
15:37:09 [Norm]
Norm: Ok, so that was a significant part of your proposal.
15:37:19 [Norm]
Alex: In the end, I think it might be very confusing to users.
15:37:23 [Norm]
Norm: I'm inclined to agree.
15:38:10 [MoZ]
Alex, are steps systematicaly anonymous ?
15:38:53 [Norm]
Norm: Anything else we should spend time discussing?
15:39:40 [Norm]
15:40:31 [Norm]
Alex: Most interesting bit is the p:url step
15:40:33 [alexmilowski]
15:40:45 [alexmilowski]
15:44:08 [Norm]
Alex: The url step performs an http action and possibly massages the result (based on content-type) to produce a well-formed XML result
15:44:24 [Norm]
Alex: The following steps cleanup and filter the result data.
15:45:08 [Norm]
Alex: There's nothing earth shattering here except for the retrieval step.
15:45:36 [Norm]
...I could have done this through XSLT using document() calls, but that would require XSLT to be able to handle HTML documents
15:47:03 [Norm]
Alessandro: the only thing I see are purely syntactic. What's the best name for these attributes, for example?
15:47:05 [Norm]
Naming is hard.
15:47:54 [Norm]
Alex: The naming issues and not having defaults haven't really been an issue for me. That makes me pretty comfortable with a first-round story that doesn't have any defaults.
15:48:32 [Norm]
15:49:00 [Norm]
Alex: The biggest thing to not here are the parameters.
15:49:20 [Norm]
...There's one input that contains two elements. I'm going to need those lots of times.
15:50:02 [Norm]
...So I grab them right at the beginning.
15:53:27 [Norm]
Alex: There's a whole question of if you use parameters, where are they available. Is it implicit or explicit? Etc.
15:53:43 [Norm]
Alex: This is a straight-through pipe. In fact it has to stream because the output of the last two steps can blow up to millions of elements.
15:54:49 [Norm]
Norm: Are you making parameters copies or pointers to a document?
15:54:53 [Norm]
Alex: I'm making copies.
15:57:29 [Norm]
Alex: There are two interesting things: I have a bunch of custom steps, how do we deal with those, and I have a need to reuse the inputs to the pipeline at a later part, what's the right way to do that? With parameters? Or an input dependency? And how would that work.
15:57:34 [Norm]
15:58:20 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
15:58:24 [Norm]
15:58:50 [Norm]
Scribe apologizes for rather poor minutes this week.
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16:04:08 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:04:11 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate Norm
16:04:36 [Norm]
Norm, remember to publish the $#@$#@ minutes!
16:05:53 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, Alex_Milowski, in XML_PMWG()11:00AM
16:05:57 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Norm, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet, MoZ, Alex_Milowski, AndrewF, Michael, [IPcaller], Rui
16:39:45 [MoZ]
Zakim, bye
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Rssagent, bye
17:44:27 [Norm]
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18:25:38 [MoZ]
Norm, i didn't notice at the f2f that there won't be any telcon in july, is this the case ?
18:25:47 [MoZ]
for xls
18:25:53 [MoZ]
18:40:14 [Norm]
I think so. I didn't really get a clear picture on that either
18:40:31 [Norm]
I'm just going to wait until another agenda comes out, I think :-)
19:09:16 [MoZ]
Norm, i was afraid that i lost some part of the discussion during f2f
19:09:23 [Norm]
I don't think so
19:09:32 [MoZ]
...but i didn't sleep that much ;)
19:11:00 [MoZ]
so it's official you will be at toronto, then montreal ?
19:12:18 [Norm]
19:14:13 [MoZ]
19:15:06 [Norm]
You bet!
19:26:30 [MoZ]
Extreme Anxiety is over...but what about Extreme Stress ?
19:30:58 [MoZ]
Norm, any idea of what Sharon was speaking about we she said that "if any member could help" or something like for the tests suite ?
19:31:08 [Norm]
Not off the top of my head
19:31:20 [Norm]
Extreme Stress grows ever more extreme :-)
19:31:29 [Norm]
There's a code-freeze for Java on Monday so I'm heads down bug fixing
19:31:59 [MoZ]
on what part are you working ?
19:32:02 [MoZ]
19:32:06 [MoZ]
is it ?
19:37:12 [MoZ]
JAXB too ?
19:41:39 [MoZ]
Norm, it's java 6 Rc ?
19:41:56 [Norm]
I'm working on JAXP 1.4 for Java 6 (whatever we call that these days)
19:43:15 [MoZ]
ok good luck with bugs..
19:50:18 [Norm]
21:59:22 [MoZ]
RSSAgent /help
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RSSAgent leave
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RSSAgent quit
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RSSAgent thanks
21:59:47 [MoZ]
RSSAgent, thanks
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RSSAgent, help
22:00:15 [MoZ]
RRSAgent bye
22:00:22 [MoZ]
RRSAgent, bye
22:00:22 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items