IRC log of xproc on 2006-07-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/13-xproc-irc

14:49:21 [Norm]

zakim, this will be xproc

14:49:21 [Zakim]

ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes

14:49:57 [Norm]

Meeting: XML Processing Model WG

14:49:57 [Norm]

Scribe: Norm

14:49:57 [Norm]

ScribeNick: Norm

14:49:57 [Norm]

Date: 13 July 2006

14:49:57 [Norm]

Chair: Norm

14:49:58 [Norm]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/07/13-agenda.html

14:50:00 [Norm]

Meeting: 28

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14:59:01 [Norm]

MSM, old ETA was today + 1 week :-)

14:59:49 [Zakim]

XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started

14:59:58 [Zakim]

+Norm

15:00:26 [MoZ]

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15:00:43 [Zakim]

+[ArborText]

15:00:54 [MoZ]

Zakim, what is the code?

15:00:54 [Zakim]

the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), MoZ

15:01:13 [Zakim]

+Alessandro_Vernet

15:01:42 [Zakim]

+??P3

15:01:59 [Norm]

zakim, ??P3 is MoZ

15:01:59 [Zakim]

+MoZ; got it

15:02:28 [Norm]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:02:28 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet, MoZ

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15:05:57 [Zakim]

+Alex_Milowski

15:06:29 [Norm]

zakim, mute alex_milowski

15:06:29 [Zakim]

Alex_Milowski should now be muted

15:06:37 [Zakim]

+??P41

15:06:37 [Norm]

zakim, unmute alex_milowski

15:06:39 [Zakim]

Alex_Milowski should no longer be muted

15:06:43 [AndrewF]

zakim, ? is AndrewF

15:06:43 [Zakim]

+AndrewF; got it

15:08:29 [MoZ]

MSM are you around ?

15:08:49 [Norm]

zakim, who's on the phone?

15:08:49 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet, MoZ, Alex_Milowski, AndrewF

15:09:35 [Norm]

Present: Alessandro, Mohamed, Norman, Paul, Alex, Andrew

15:09:39 [Norm]

Regrets: Murray

15:09:45 [Norm]

Topic: Accept this agenda?

15:09:45 [Norm]

-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/07/13-agenda.html

15:09:53 [Norm]

Accepted.

15:09:59 [Norm]

Topic: Accept minutes from the previous teleconference?

15:10:11 [Norm]

Norm, since they were never published

15:10:12 [Norm]

Topic: Next meeting: 20 July

15:10:12 [Norm]

Any regrets?

15:10:26 [Norm]

None given.

15:10:29 [Norm]

Topic: Face-to-face: 2-4 Aug 2006.

15:10:29 [Norm]

Registration is closed. Make sure your arrangements are in order.

15:10:42 [MSM]

zakim, please call Michael-Office

15:10:42 [Zakim]

ok, MSM; the call is being made

15:10:42 [MoZ]

hurray !

15:10:43 [Zakim]

+Michael

15:11:27 [Norm]

Topic: Review of open action items

15:11:53 [Norm]

A-27-01

15:11:54 [Norm]

Completed

15:12:04 [Norm]

A-27-02: Norm to write up some straw syntaxes for some of the use cases

15:12:26 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:12:27 [Norm]

Continued.

15:12:40 [Norm]

A-23-02: Richard to write a syntax proposal

15:12:40 [rlopes]

zakim [IP is Rui

15:12:42 [Norm]

Continued.

15:12:49 [Norm]

A-23-03: Norm to write a syntax proposal

15:12:50 [Norm]

Continued

15:12:54 [rlopes]

zakim, +[IP is Rui

15:12:54 [Zakim]

sorry, rlopes, I do not recognize a party named '+[IP'

15:12:55 [Norm]

A-13-01: MSM to draft a complete table; ETA: 20 July 2006

15:12:58 [Norm]

Continued.

15:13:10 [Norm]

Topic: XProc syntax

15:13:15 [rlopes]

zakim, [IP is Rui

15:13:15 [Zakim]

+Rui; got it

15:14:10 [Norm]

Alex: I worked through some of my examples.

15:16:05 [Norm]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jul/0002.html

15:16:51 [Norm]

Alex: Maybe it's easier to look at the large document example

15:17:12 [Norm]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jul/0016.html

15:17:44 [Norm]

Norm: Is this the one you had in mind?

15:17:46 [Norm]

Alex: Yes

15:17:57 [Norm]

...There's one tweak, the 'from' attribute is wrong in this one.

15:18:25 [Norm]

...The idea is that you are selecting an expression (@select) over an input document (@over)

15:18:36 [Norm]

...The thing you select has to be an element, so that it can be made into a document.

15:18:48 [Norm]

...That's provide as input labeled "iteration" (@to)

15:19:08 [Norm]

...The output of the for-each is the input that's been processed.

15:19:37 [alexmilowski]

<p:for-each select="section" over="large-doc" to="iteration" replacement="transformed">

15:19:37 [alexmilowski]

<!-- input isn't needed here because this "for-each" has

15:19:37 [alexmilowski]

to iterate over elements. The input is identified by

15:19:37 [alexmilowski]

the 'over' attribute and the binding for each result

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element is specified by the 'to' attribute. -->

15:19:38 [alexmilowski]

<p:output name="final" from="large-document"/>

15:21:12 [Norm]

...So in this example, the output is a little funny

15:21:23 [Norm]

Some discussion which the scribe couldn't follow

15:23:44 [Norm]

Norm attempts to summarize

15:26:02 [Norm]

Alex: The way I've been using the output element is that there's a name for it and a from that refers to whatever you're labelling

15:26:11 [Norm]

...So what is the from?

15:26:22 [Norm]

...In the case of a normal step, it'd be something the component defined.

15:30:07 [Norm]

Norm and Alex attempt to come to an understanding...

15:30:49 [Norm]

Alex: The p:output can't be from 'transformed' because that's just the inner result. And it can't be 'large-doc' because it's not large-doc, it's large-doc after modification.

15:32:09 [alexmilowski]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jul/0028.html

15:33:21 [Norm]

Norm: This suggestion makes p:for-each something like a p:output in the sense that it defines a label for its output

15:34:09 [Norm]

Alex: I think an issue we should raise for later is whether there's some grand unification of this and iterating over documents. We should make sure we come back to that.

15:34:32 [Norm]

...It would be unfortunate if we couldn't extend this to the concept of iterating over sequences of documents

15:35:32 [Norm]

Norm: This example has multiple steps

15:36:10 [Norm]

Norm: You've used the explicit naming of each input and output as opposed to the alternative which was naming though the step name.

15:36:28 [Norm]

Alex: I said no defaults, no magic, no prefixing.

15:37:09 [Norm]

Norm: Ok, so that was a significant part of your proposal.

15:37:19 [Norm]

Alex: In the end, I think it might be very confusing to users.

15:37:23 [Norm]

Norm: I'm inclined to agree.

15:38:10 [MoZ]

Alex, are steps systematicaly anonymous ?

15:38:53 [Norm]

Norm: Anything else we should spend time discussing?

15:39:40 [Norm]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jul/0017.html

15:40:31 [Norm]

Alex: Most interesting bit is the p:url step

15:40:33 [alexmilowski]

http://www.smallx.com/tideinfo/

15:40:45 [alexmilowski]

http://www.smallx.com/tideinfo-service/

15:44:08 [Norm]

Alex: The url step performs an http action and possibly massages the result (based on content-type) to produce a well-formed XML result

15:44:24 [Norm]

Alex: The following steps cleanup and filter the result data.

15:45:08 [Norm]

Alex: There's nothing earth shattering here except for the retrieval step.

15:45:36 [Norm]

...I could have done this through XSLT using document() calls, but that would require XSLT to be able to handle HTML documents

15:47:03 [Norm]

Alessandro: the only thing I see are purely syntactic. What's the best name for these attributes, for example?

15:47:05 [Norm]

Naming is hard.

15:47:54 [Norm]

Alex: The naming issues and not having defaults haven't really been an issue for me. That makes me pretty comfortable with a first-round story that doesn't have any defaults.

15:48:32 [Norm]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jul/0019.html

15:49:00 [Norm]

Alex: The biggest thing to not here are the parameters.

15:49:20 [Norm]

...There's one input that contains two elements. I'm going to need those lots of times.

15:50:02 [Norm]

...So I grab them right at the beginning.

15:53:27 [Norm]

Alex: There's a whole question of if you use parameters, where are they available. Is it implicit or explicit? Etc.

15:53:43 [Norm]

Alex: This is a straight-through pipe. In fact it has to stream because the output of the last two steps can blow up to millions of elements.

15:54:49 [Norm]

Norm: Are you making parameters copies or pointers to a document?

15:54:53 [Norm]

Alex: I'm making copies.

15:57:29 [Norm]

Alex: There are two interesting things: I have a bunch of custom steps, how do we deal with those, and I have a need to reuse the inputs to the pipeline at a later part, what's the right way to do that? With parameters? Or an input dependency? And how would that work.

15:57:34 [Norm]

s/work./work?/

15:58:20 [Norm]

Topic: Any other business?

15:58:24 [Norm]

None.

15:58:50 [Norm]

Scribe apologizes for rather poor minutes this week.

16:00:42 [Zakim]

-Norm

16:00:43 [Zakim]

-PGrosso

16:00:44 [Zakim]

-Rui

16:00:46 [Zakim]

-Alessandro_Vernet

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-MoZ

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-AndrewF

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-Michael

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16:04:08 [Norm]

rrsagent, set logs world-visible

16:04:11 [Norm]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:04:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/13-xproc-minutes.html Norm

16:04:36 [Norm]

Norm, remember to publish the $#@$#@ minutes!

16:05:53 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, Alex_Milowski, in XML_PMWG()11:00AM

16:05:57 [Zakim]

XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended

16:05:59 [Zakim]

Attendees were Norm, PGrosso, Alessandro_Vernet, MoZ, Alex_Milowski, AndrewF, Michael, [IPcaller], Rui

16:39:45 [MoZ]

Zakim, bye

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16:40:27 [MoZ]

Rssagent, bye

17:44:27 [Norm]

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18:25:38 [MoZ]

Norm, i didn't notice at the f2f that there won't be any telcon in july, is this the case ?

18:25:47 [MoZ]

for xls

18:25:53 [MoZ]

s/xls/xsl/

18:40:14 [Norm]

I think so. I didn't really get a clear picture on that either

18:40:31 [Norm]

I'm just going to wait until another agenda comes out, I think :-)

19:09:16 [MoZ]

Norm, i was afraid that i lost some part of the discussion during f2f

19:09:23 [Norm]

I don't think so

19:09:32 [MoZ]

...but i didn't sleep that much ;)

19:11:00 [MoZ]

so it's official you will be at toronto, then montreal ?

19:12:18 [Norm]

Yes!

19:14:13 [MoZ]

great

19:15:06 [Norm]

You bet!

19:26:30 [MoZ]

Extreme Anxiety is over...but what about Extreme Stress ?

19:30:58 [MoZ]

Norm, any idea of what Sharon was speaking about we she said that "if any member could help" or something like for the tests suite ?

19:31:08 [Norm]

Not off the top of my head

19:31:20 [Norm]

Extreme Stress grows ever more extreme :-)

19:31:29 [Norm]

There's a code-freeze for Java on Monday so I'm heads down bug fixing

19:31:59 [MoZ]

on what part are you working ?

19:32:02 [MoZ]

JAXP

19:32:06 [MoZ]

is it ?

19:37:12 [MoZ]

JAXB too ?

19:41:39 [MoZ]

Norm, it's java 6 Rc ?

19:41:56 [Norm]

I'm working on JAXP 1.4 for Java 6 (whatever we call that these days)

19:43:15 [MoZ]

ok good luck with bugs..

19:50:18 [Norm]

thanks!

21:59:22 [MoZ]

RSSAgent /help

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RSSAgent leave

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RSSAgent quit

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RSSAgent thanks

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RSSAgent, thanks

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RSSAgent, help

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RRSAgent bye

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RRSAgent, bye

22:00:22 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items