IRC log of ua on 2006-07-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:43:49 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/13-ua-irc
17:44:00 [jallan]
chair: Jim Allan
17:57:22 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
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+[IBM]
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+Jim_Allan
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* jim jr zakim and rrs invited, entered chair
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+[IPcaller]
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+[IBM.a]
18:02:12 [cklaws]
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18:03:19 [JR]
Meeting: WAI UA
18:03:43 [JR]
Topic: 3.1 Toggle background images (P1)
18:04:39 [JR]
CL: Some IBM people playing with Div's and SPAN's used to look like widgets.
18:05:03 [JR]
JA: Bit of a different issue...
18:05:23 [JR]
JA: 3.1 is background image for the page not for indiv objects
18:06:37 [JR]
JR: CSS can be used to make real images
18:06:58 [JR]
CL: Yes and that's what we are working with.
18:08:00 [JR]
JR: I'm talking at full scale page, CL talking about discrete drawn objects looking like widgets
18:08:14 [JR]
CL: Yes and with javascript used to control behaviour
18:08:39 [JR]
JA: Maybe we need clarification...
18:08:46 [JR]
JA: Was thinking of full page...
18:08:57 [JR]
JA: but could apply to paragraph etc.
18:09:56 [JR]
JR: If backgrounds cleared on some "widgets" they will dissappear
18:10:08 [JR]
CL: Also problem in high contrast mode
18:11:01 [JR]
CL: In those cases, images would have to be provided if people had turned off css etc.
18:11:13 [JR]
CL: And devs don't want to do that.
18:12:10 [JR]
JA: WOW!
18:12:25 [JR]
JA: Not what CSS intended...
18:12:32 [JR]
CL: Yes but its coming.
18:13:49 [JR]
CL: Prob a web content thing to solve...
18:16:08 [jallan]
developers are leaving html objects behind, hacking the css, making things out of shapes and appling javascript to them
18:16:30 [jallan]
jr: this may be more of an author problem.
18:16:38 [JR]
JR: These things seem to be hacks - seems to be web content thing
18:16:59 [JR]
CL: Well toolkits are trying to standardize these drawing techniques
18:17:33 [JR]
JA: Widget set is like an API
18:17:46 [JR]
CL: But they have not figured out the inside...
18:18:06 [JR]
JA: So they aren't using SVG, perhaps since not well implemented
18:18:46 [JR]
JA: Scary for accessibility because popping in and out of toolits
18:19:28 [JR]
JA: Also not supporting OS level things like high contrast
18:19:40 [JR]
JA: Does make this a user agent problem
18:20:31 [jallan]
jr: user agents should support the widget set when it becomes standardized
18:20:59 [JR]
CL: DOJO is becoming well known, but other toolkits as well.
18:21:18 [JR]
JA: And no unifying group?
18:21:48 [JR]
CL: People didn't think style sheets would be used that way...
18:22:02 [JR]
JA: On divs almost need titles
18:22:11 [JR]
CL: Are doing that.
18:23:43 [jallan]
jr: does css need to be a core technology.
18:24:16 [jallan]
pp: but there is a still a need to turn off page level background images
18:24:57 [jallan]
jr: user agent may need to be able to make somethings high contrast
18:25:06 [jallan]
cl: through mark up?
18:25:38 [JR]
JA: Or widgets need to wrapped in super-divs with new roles...
18:25:59 [JR]
CL: Somewhat being done in the roadmap
18:26:07 [JR]
DHTML roadmap
18:26:20 [JR]
CL: Widgets son't usually have colours
18:27:18 [jallan]
jr: e.g. high contrast user yellow forground black background, how does that translate to the widgets.
18:27:24 [JR]
CL: So is this something that OS's have already done...
18:28:00 [JR]
JR: Think so from Windows high-contrast experience.
18:29:01 [jallan]
jr: some want applications to run in the borwser. raster drawing wrapped in divs and become actional objects in the browser
18:29:19 [JR]
CL: Will discuss more with Becky
18:30:24 [JR]
JA: So we may need clarification in 3.1 - are we talking about page level background images...
18:31:27 [JR]
CL: Right but unfortunately we already refer to CSS properties that could be done on element by element.
18:33:26 [JR]
Topic: 3.2 Toggle audio, video, animated images (P1)
18:34:10 [JR]
JA: JR had said how do you turn of sound independent of video.
18:34:36 [JR]
JA: But video with sound may have been handed off to embedded player
18:35:57 [jallan]
jr: we always come to the secondary player (pugins, objects, etc.)
18:36:45 [jallan]
jr: are we at the point of saying a browser is conformant to html and x or y.
18:37:10 [jallan]
jr: but if the browser cannot communicate with the plugins and allow control then it is not conformant
18:38:08 [JR]
JA: As we dance around v1.1, there is browser side and there is plugin side then there is part where they need to talk
18:39:13 [JR]
JA: Dream way back when was for conformance reports for all the little plugin players
18:40:16 [JR]
JA: Seems to be tied in to compound doc stuff...with all its different layers
18:41:03 [JR]
Topic: 3.3 Toggle animated or blinking text (P1)
18:41:57 [JR]
JA: To me this is confusing...since we say render as motionless then in examples we say turn off with escape
18:42:30 [JR]
JR: Thinks this is implicit, but we should add explicit technique about having setting for that.
18:43:02 [JR]
CL: Real problem is defn of animation.
18:43:53 [JR]
CL: Could be using Javascript, CSS
18:44:36 [JR]
JA: Do mention animation in Techniques
18:45:02 [JR]
oops: animation should have been Javascript
18:45:38 [JR]
CL: Flash is definatelyu beyond browsers control
18:48:13 [JR]
CL: Javascript alone is limitless in ways to create animation
18:49:13 [JR]
CL: So are you changing the techs?
18:49:37 [JR]
JA: Yes making changes to non-normative techniques that could become a note.
18:51:04 [JR]
JA: But we are having a problem that lots of issues coming up are not solvable at techniques level when changes required to notmative stuff
18:51:36 [JR]
JA: Before Xmas, we worked with Roadmap, we thought things were covered, but now seeing bigger holes.
18:52:26 [JR]
Topic: 3.4 Toggle scripts (P1)
18:52:47 [JR]
CL: Don't know why Applets included...
18:53:25 [JR]
CL: ActiveX very Windows specific
18:53:35 [JR]
CL: "Executable content includes scripts, applets, and ActiveX controls. This checkpoint does not apply to plug-ins; they are not part of content.
18:53:42 [JR]
" is weird.
18:54:32 [JR]
CL: THese things not in definition of content
18:55:08 [JR]
JA: Applet defintion is weird..UA doesn't execute applets, JVM does
18:55:31 [JR]
JA: Otherwise must be able to toggle ActiveX controls, Java, etc
18:57:38 [JR]
CL" All these things are plugins
18:59:56 [JR]
Aside: Bugzilla for Firefox development has UAAG bugs.
19:01:50 [JR]
JA: Next week Techs fo Guideline 4.
19:02:04 [JR]
JR: F2F?
19:02:33 [JR]
JA: Could be useful for 1.1 planning or should we move ahead on techniques.
19:03:33 [Zakim]
-[IBM.a]
19:03:51 [JR]
CL: Useful to talk to PF about the direction they want us go.
19:03:59 [Zakim]
-[IBM]
19:04:21 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:04:25 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
19:04:26 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended
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Attendees were [IBM], Jim_Allan, [IPcaller]
19:04:36 [JR]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:04:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/13-ua-minutes.html JR
19:04:43 [JR]
RRSAgent, set logs public
19:05:42 [JR]
zakim, bye
19:05:42 [Zakim]
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rrsagent, bye
19:05:47 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items