IRC log of ddwg on 2006-07-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:14:17 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
07:14:20 [ronan]
scribenick ronan
07:15:08 [bmarks]
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07:15:22 [asamim]
Meeting: Device Description Repository Workshop, day 2
07:15:36 [asamim]
Chair: Rotan
07:16:00 [ronan2]
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07:16:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
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07:16:54 [ronan2]
scribenick: ronan2
07:16:59 [ronan2]
scribe: ronan2
07:17:15 [asamim]
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07:22:48 [ronan2]
Rotan recaps some activities to date
07:22:53 [Luca_Passani]
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07:23:13 [ronan2]
DDR -- where does its scope end - what information should be in it
07:23:26 [ronan2]
If DDR is extensible, others can add to it
07:23:36 [ronan2]
But our scope is really the browser characteristics
07:23:51 [ronan2]
It is important that the architecture does not preclude extensions
07:24:10 [DKA]
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07:24:11 [ronan2]
We have to balance expediancy with practicalities
07:24:29 [ronan2]
Would be good to get something working as soon as possible, and extend as appropriate
07:25:01 [ronan2]
Mapping different pieces of information from different contributers could be a challenge, but it is important that we support this
07:25:30 [ronan2]
But it is important that the DDR can be seen as a single repository
07:25:50 [ronan2]
An important use case is the input of new information
07:26:09 [ronan2]
How to label the trust associated with this information
07:26:23 [ronan2]
A federated approach for information should give scalability
07:26:52 [ronan2]
The W3C will produce a recommendation -- it is not a standards body, though the recommendations carry the weight of standards
07:27:34 [ronan2]
Along with a recommendation should come a proof that what has been recommended will work
07:28:06 [ronan2]
The recommendation could be just that or we could actually make recommendations of interfaces, along with proof of concepts
07:28:38 [ronan2]
..with real data behind it
07:28:57 [ronan2]
DD version 2 may cover this
07:29:31 [ronan2]
Some have suggested that the basic info in the DD would be something that could be contributed from WURFL, OMA etc
07:29:50 [ronan2]
The other participants could use this as seeding activity and validate against their own data
07:30:00 [ronan2]
This would be starting core of data for DDR
07:30:03 [mimasa]
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07:30:28 [ronan2]
We have already discussed what we consider to be the basic required information for basic adaptation
07:30:35 [ronan2]
.. about a dozen attributes
07:31:11 [RRSAgent]
07:31:15 [ronan2]
Where this info actually resides is open for debate
07:32:02 [ronan2]
There is a link to the OMA liasion statement on the DDWG home page
07:32:14 [mimasa]
07:32:35 [ronan2]
We now need to lay out the charter for the next tranche of work
07:33:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
07:34:06 [ronan2]
The DDWG is a MWI initiative, so this should be our primary concern
07:34:21 [mimasa]
ScribeNick: ronan2
07:34:33 [ronan2]
Edward: raised an issue yesterday about whether this is limited to mobile browsing
07:35:04 [ronan2]
Rotan: The DDWG is a MWI initiative, so this should be our primary concern -- but we should not preclude non-mobile use cases
07:35:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
07:36:45 [ronan2]
Telefonic presenttation begins
07:36:53 [sboyera]
07:37:10 [ronan2]
07:37:25 [ronan2]
Presentation is about DDR design and implementation
07:37:39 [ronan2]
Given by Jose Cantera
07:39:24 [ronan2]
The technology around the repository is as important as the repository itself
07:39:42 [ronan2]
... but it is important not to reinvent the wheel
07:40:15 [ronan2]
Seemless integration with existing standards is very important, but there will be a need for new mechanisms
07:40:47 [Rotan]
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07:40:54 [ronan2]
Both UAProf and WURFL have some limitations
07:41:27 [ronan2]
E.g. UAProf lacks mandatory attributes
07:41:29 [mimasa]
s/scribenick ronan/ScribeNick: ronan2/
07:41:43 [ronan2]
WURFL lacks a central repository
07:41:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
07:42:35 [ronan2]
WURFL also lacks warranty and update notifications
07:43:09 [ronan2]
The DDR architecture should be open and extensible
07:43:48 [mimasa]
ScribeNick: ronan2
07:44:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
07:44:28 [sb2]
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07:45:00 [ronan2]
The DDR could solve the problem of having to copy WURFL files to multiple machines
07:46:27 [ronan2]
Proposes distributed federated model where different organizations maintain different chunks of information
07:46:43 [ronan2]
But all the complexity hidden by a set of standard APIs
07:47:13 [ronan2]
It is important that applications can override attributes
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07:49:09 [ronan3]
* I got kicked off
07:49:18 [ronan3]
scribenick ronan3
07:49:45 [cedric]
ScribeNick: ronan3
07:50:33 [ronan3]
Versioning of the data is important
07:51:58 [ronan3]
It is very important to support interop between the different repositories - e.g. a standard XML export format
07:52:39 [ronan3]
There should be support for multiple different ways to provision new devices
07:53:01 [Andrea]
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07:53:04 [Andrea]
07:53:06 [Andrea]
07:53:51 [ronan3]
Workflows will need to be defined around this
07:54:41 [ronan3]
There could be a model for pay-per-use
07:54:59 [ronan3]
.. associated with private device descriptions
07:55:55 [ronan3]
DDR security model should support a number of use cases
07:56:24 [ronan3]
Anonymous users, premium users, provisioning user, validating user, data manager
07:58:11 [ronan3]
DDR validation and trust
07:58:32 [ronan3]
Validation means ensuring that the device description is correct
07:59:09 [ronan3]
Data should not be made public until it is validated
07:59:35 [ronan3]
DDR APIs and tools
08:00:02 [ronan3]
OMG IDL should be used for the APIs
08:00:46 [ronan3]
Interfaces should be described WSDL
08:01:34 [ronan3]
Design of the APIs should be aligned with existing DIWG work
08:02:01 [ronan3]
There would probably be a set of web tools to manage this
08:02:19 [ronan3]
Relationship with OMA & UAProf
08:02:53 [ronan3]
Provisioning level data should be compatible at a minimum
08:03:40 [ronan3]
Reference Implementation
08:03:49 [ronan3]
Should be open source project
08:04:15 [ronan3]
Telefonica are committed to be involved in this
08:05:00 [ronan3]
MORFEO project can be used
08:05:26 [ronan3]
Rotan: W3C has not done this before, but it certainly is possible that we could do this as open source project
08:06:16 [ronan3]
Presentation ends
08:06:24 [ronan3]
08:06:48 [DKA]
08:07:12 [Luca_Passani]
08:07:15 [sboyera]
08:07:39 [ronan3]
Andrea: you said device inheritance is needed -- why is this?
08:07:53 [asamim]
08:08:02 [ronan3]
Andrea: thinks it should not be a requirement even though it was successfule for WURFL
08:08:10 [mimasa]
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08:08:18 [ronan3]
Jose: requirement is that the provisioning model is as easy as possible
08:08:19 [sboyera]
[any plus enable person can add Dan and i in the queue ?]
08:08:34 [RRSAgent]
08:08:47 [Rotan]
08:08:52 [Rotan]
ack and
08:09:01 [ronan3]
Andrea: as long as you have the device info in your repository, the admin can easily link related devices
08:09:10 [DKA]
08:09:30 [ronan3]
Andrea: device clustering -- if there is a model with no inheritance it will be easy to build device clusters
08:09:33 [sboyera]
[good try dan, i tried already]
08:09:44 [ronan3]
Andrea: inheritance is often a technical barrier
08:10:09 [sboyera]
[i tried lso opera and IE, this is not a problem related with the browser]
08:10:23 [Rotan]
q+ chris
08:10:38 [ronan3]
Jose: without inheritance how can your API indicate hierarchy of devices?
08:10:54 [ronan3]
Andrea: thinks that inheritance does not solve this problem
08:10:58 [DKA]
q ±
08:11:08 [ronan3]
Jose: inheritance and clustering are different
08:11:18 [sboyera]
08:11:43 [ronan3]
Jose: Branches and grouping are different
08:11:57 [Rotan]
q+ DKA
08:12:32 [ronan3]
Andrea: inheritance tree does not work e.g. some Samsung phones have the Nokia browser
08:12:45 [ronan3]
Andrea: this would not easily be covered by inheritance
08:13:01 [ronan3]
Rotan: proposes that we address this work as second charter
08:13:01 [bmarks]
q bmarks
08:13:13 [Andrea]
q+ bmarks
08:13:40 [bmarks]
q- bmarks
08:13:42 [Luca_Passani]
q+ dave
08:13:43 [Luca_Passani]
q+ dave
08:14:02 [Rotan]
ack chris
08:14:31 [ronan3]
Chris: says that inheritence should not be part of the model - encourages people not to put data in
08:15:17 [ronan3]
chris: any query is automatically a cluster - cluster does not need to be explicitly part of the model
08:16:01 [ronan3]
08:16:42 [Rotan]
ack dka
08:16:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
08:17:01 [ronan3]
DKA: Expresses support for Telefonica vision and method (open source framework)
08:17:08 [Rotan]
(Note we are having queue management problems because of the lack of a + symbol.)
08:17:17 [ronan3]
DKA: Would support this initiative if it happens with developers
08:17:42 [ronan3]
Luca: I invented inheritance in WURFL but it has been double edged sword
08:18:04 [Rotan]
08:18:08 [Rotan]
ack luca
08:18:10 [ronan3]
Luca: WURFL willl introduce modules to avoid multiple inheritance problem
08:18:14 [Rotan]
q+ steph
08:18:29 [ronan3]
Luca: API should not rely on fallback mechanism to be there
08:18:43 [ronan3]
Jose: I want to know the family of the device
08:19:25 [ronan3]
Andrea: how can you do this? Voda imposes its own specidications on J2ME specs for example
08:20:05 [ronan3]
Andrea: these families are specific to you -- may not be of use to anyone else
08:20:16 [mimasa-sp1]
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08:20:30 [ronan3]
sboyera: The application is what decides the 'family', not the repository
08:21:10 [ronan3]
Luca: doesn't understand why this belongs at API level
08:21:49 [ronan3]
Luca: it's important to provide just one way to do things
08:22:04 [ronan3]
Rotan: need to discuss this in 2nd charter
08:22:30 [ronan3]
bmarks: these are implementation issues -- not a good use of the group's time at this point
08:23:15 [ronan3]
sboyera: What is missing is technology of indexing -- what do we use to index the information? UA string?
08:23:32 [Andrea]
I also wanted to ask what Jose means by "Device deprecation". Did he mean "deprecation of device description"?
08:23:57 [ronan3]
sboyera: The vocabulary will cause a problem - how can we unify the properties beyond the initial 15 or so
08:24:19 [Andrea]
Lastly, why couldn't an open-source implementation provide signed DD's? If the open-source can establish a process, then DD's can be verified
08:24:21 [ronan3]
Jose: the W3C will not define the extensive vocabulary -- this will be done by OMA etc
08:24:22 [Rotan]
Observation, clustering can be external to the data (just like semweb annotation). Just an idea.
08:25:31 [ronan3]
Dave: what is the difference between the Telefonica vision and the current requirements? Seems like the vision is beyond current requirements? Are there any gaps?
08:26:00 [ronan3]
Jose: there may be gaps in provisioning, security and pay per view aspects of vision
08:26:40 [ronan3]
Dave: need to have requirements updated for charter 2
08:26:51 [ronan3]
Next presentation commences
08:27:20 [ronan3]
Presentation by Technosite
08:27:47 [ronan3]
"Strategies for tailoring web content for specific devices"
08:28:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa-sp1
08:29:05 [ronan3]
Disabled users have many problems with web access on mobile devices
08:29:14 [mimasa-sp1]
s/Presentation by Technosite/Topic: Presentation by Technosite/
08:29:15 [nacho]
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08:29:23 [ronan3]
Propose 2 solutions
08:29:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa-sp1
08:29:40 [ronan3]
1) Best practices
08:29:46 [ronan3]
2) Device descriptions
08:30:57 [bmarks]
q bmarks
08:31:29 [mimasa-sp1]
s/Telefonica presenttation begins/Topic: Telefonica presenttation/
08:31:48 [Rotan]
q+ bmarks
08:31:53 [bmarks]
08:31:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa-sp1
08:32:19 [ronan3]
List of best practices presented
08:32:20 [Rotan]
q+ to ask if accessibility community would maintain a ddr node with accessibility info
08:32:47 [mimasa-sp1]
08:33:49 [ronan3]
DDR should help adapt content to mobile devices and assistive technologies
08:34:04 [ronan3]
DDR should include accessibility/usability information
08:34:25 [ronan3]
There are h/w and s/w aspects to this
08:35:10 [ronan3]
Some assistive hardware and software solutions mentioned
08:35:50 [jcantera]
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08:35:57 [Rotan]
08:35:59 [ronan3]
Summary: it is important that the DDR takes into account assistive technologies
08:36:26 [sboyera]
ack dave
08:36:30 [sboyera]
ack steph
08:36:33 [ronan3]
... the needs of users with diabilities should be be considered
08:36:47 [ronan3]
Presentation ends
08:36:51 [Rotan]
08:36:58 [Rotan]
ack bmarks
08:37:09 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minutees', mimasa-sp1. Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:37:21 [Luca_Passani]
08:37:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa-sp1
08:37:46 [ronan3]
bmarks: Many man/machine and UI issues with phones are similar those problems we have on the PC
08:38:59 [ronan3]
bmarks: We are talking to a community that has to deal with the same issues - some of these issues will already occur in DD
08:39:00 [sboyera]
rrsagent, agenda ?
08:39:00 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'agenda '
08:39:19 [Luca_Passani]
08:39:23 [ronan3]
bmarks: It's a smaller increment in the mobile environment than in the PC environment
08:39:54 [ronan3]
bmarks: the question is how to best describe the techogies that are already being applied
08:40:23 [ronan3]
bmarks: There are other motivations for solving these problems in the mobile space that create synergies
08:40:50 [ronan3]
bmarks: the data should fit fairly well into the visions that have been described
08:40:50 [Rotan]
ack Rotan
08:40:50 [Zakim]
Rotan, you wanted to ask if accessibility community would maintain a ddr node with accessibility info
08:41:50 [ronan3]
Rotan: if the DDR is distributed, with multiple contributers, could we have a node of the DDR that contains the accessibility information -- question to presenter
08:41:53 [mimasa-sp1]
08:42:18 [ronan3]
Rotan: will the accessibility community use such a feature?
08:42:24 [mimasa-sp1]
08:43:55 [ronan3]
Rotan: we don't care where the data comes from as long as we know we can trust it
08:44:26 [ronan3]
08:44:40 [Rotan]
ack jc
08:45:24 [ronan3]
Jose: do you know the set of capabilities that will be needed for disability information? Will there be a module in vocabulary that will be devoted to this?
08:45:34 [Rotan]
08:47:05 [ronan3]
Jose: are there specific attributes that are related to accesibility?
08:47:09 [nacho]
08:47:52 [Andrea]
08:48:25 [ronan3]
Rotan: WAI has published guidelines in this area, but there is no machine readable information that would help adaptation
08:48:33 [ronan3]
Nacho: we should liase with WAI
08:49:29 [bmarks]
08:49:31 [ronan3]
Rotan: this information is useful only when it is in a node in the DDR
08:49:59 [ronan3]
... perhaps some agencies would populate this node and sponsor it
08:50:18 [mimasa-sp1]
08:50:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
08:50:32 [nacho]
[plus sign worked for me yesterday but not today... weird]
08:51:50 [Luca_Passani]
08:52:50 [ronan3]
Rotan: if we imagine that DDR exists, how does an author know what the properties mean? How does the authoring tool make sense of this? How do you get human readable information out of the DDR?
08:53:06 [ronan3]
Luca: you read the implemetation from a website
08:53:21 [sb]
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08:53:25 [Andrea]
[it seems to me like Ronan is filtering the minutes]
08:53:31 [sb]
08:53:39 [Andrea]
sb, you work
08:53:42 [ronan3]
Luca: documentation could be in XML, tools could import this
08:53:57 [Rotan]
08:54:01 [Rotan]
ack luca
08:54:31 [ronan3]
Rotan: should there be mechanism for adding international descriptions
08:54:39 [ronan3]
Dave: let's walk before we run
08:55:10 [jcantera]
08:55:29 [ronan3]
bmarks: had a similar problem with UAProfs and semantics
08:55:52 [Andrea]
jose, nuSOAP is not a full SOAP implementation. Unfortuntaly lacks some important things
08:56:01 [ronan3]
bmarks: as long as you have a semantic contract you allow the market place to layer on the extra stuff later
08:56:23 [ronan3]
bmarks: it would be a mistake to build this into the system -- it can be built on top
08:56:50 [ronan3]
bmarks: these are business opportunities that may come later, not something for the w3c
08:57:13 [ronan3]
Rotan: but what about an English description?
08:57:43 [ronan3]
bmarks: It's more important to establish the machine readable semantic contract
08:58:21 [ronan3]
Rotan: the meta data describes the data -- the meta meta data describes the data to a human, perhaps in an authoring tool
08:59:03 [ronan3]
When you get to 100's of attributes, the problem becomes serious
09:00:56 [ronan3]
Rotan: question about Telefonica presentation -- exporting the data from a node -- what about all the relationships in the data -- would you expect this data to be exportable?
09:01:37 [ronan3]
... If the data is a black box, the hierarchy information might not be useful to anybody else -- another node
09:01:40 [Andrea]
q+ bmarks
09:02:22 [ronan3]
Rotan: the XML format inherently has the hierarchy built into it
09:02:45 [ronan3]
Rotan: would you expect the meta data relationships between the nodes to be exported?
09:02:54 [ronan3]
Jose: thinks that the meta data should be exported
09:03:03 [Luca_Passani]
09:03:07 [Andrea]
q+ andrea to say something about exporting and importing
09:03:18 [Rotan]
ack bmarks
09:03:19 [ronan3]
bmarks: There is easy way to agree on flat node definition
09:04:08 [ronan3]
... there was a similar issue with UAProf -- they agreed that each node was standalone
09:04:25 [ronan3]
... This makes the data very big
09:05:08 [ronan3]
... You can't know a priori how the data will be used
09:05:27 [Rotan]
Nice phrases - "exportable single unit" and "atomic unit of export"
09:05:35 [Andrea]
09:05:36 [ronan3]
... So you have to go through the process of defining the atomic unit for export, otherwise it'll all fall apart
09:05:41 [Andrea]
+1 to Bennett
09:06:27 [ronan3]
... For machine readbility, the contract needs to travel with the node
09:06:43 [sb]
1 also
09:07:01 [Andrea]
s/1 also/+1 also/
09:07:08 [ronan3]
... UAProf wa criticized for verbosity but not for technical issues -- this is not b/w sensitive
09:07:30 [ronan3]
... Recommends that we don't try to manage the hierarchy
09:07:39 [ronan3]
... This is a business opportunity
09:08:00 [ronan3]
Luca: agrees with bmarks
09:08:56 [ronan3]
... We should stick to the API .. ignore the underlying implementations
09:09:27 [ronan3]
... Leave to each implementor how they want to model internally
09:09:48 [ronan3]
Rotan: surface level export is enough]
09:09:56 [ronan3]
Break for coffee
09:09:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
09:11:25 [mimasa-sp2]
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09:17:50 [RRSAgent]
09:22:18 [Martin2]
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09:23:00 [Martin2]
09:33:07 [RRSAgent]
09:33:52 [Andrea]
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09:34:03 [Andrea]
Topic: Mobile Phone Wizards presentation
09:34:47 [asamim]
ScribeNick: Andrea
09:34:59 [Andrea]
Topic: Mobile Phone Wizards presentation
09:35:05 [Andrea]
[thanks mimasa]
09:35:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
09:37:04 [Andrea]
njal: wanted to develop a service that would require 3 lines of code to integrate
09:37:20 [Andrea]
... real-time header analysis is key for us
09:37:54 [Andrea]
... would like to see the DDR as a definition of the box, but not what is inside
09:39:04 [Andrea]
Chris: understand the customer. Provide a PDF if the customer wants it, even if the device does not currently support it. The customer might install the acrobat reader later
09:39:35 [Andrea]
njal: our repository automatically updates itself
09:39:45 [Andrea]
... no need for update/batch procedures
09:40:17 [Andrea]
... provide may interfaces such as SOAP, POST, .NET
09:40:56 [Andrea]
Chris: admin interface allows for sync between different nodes
09:41:05 [Andrea]
... ability to resell access to the system
09:41:22 [Andrea]
njal: currently running on 4 main servers, 3 in Bergen, 1 in USA
09:41:50 [Andrea]
Chris: clients can rely on our servers or might want to have a local server for performance reasons, for example
09:44:06 [Andrea]
... the server is proactive in gathering device information
09:44:16 [Andrea]
... most common devices go to the top automatically
09:44:20 [Andrea]
09:45:04 [Andrea]
Bennett: how do you create profiles?
09:45:23 [Andrea]
njal: we do no testing. Sources are UAProf and getting on internet to get information
09:46:02 [Andrea]
Chris: try to make sure device info is correct, but don't have connections with manufacturers, for example
09:46:11 [Andrea]
Bennett: how many capabilities do you list?
09:46:16 [Andrea]
Chris: 200-300
09:46:56 [Andrea]
njal: when a new profile is detected in one of the servers, there is no need to search for it. gets added automatically
09:47:41 [Andrea]
Rotan: can you query if the data you're getting is data verified by you (Mobile Phone Wizards)
09:48:01 [Andrea]
Chris: there's a bit that says if data is from manual insert or automatic
09:48:19 [Andrea]
... you can query the "manual DB" or the automatic DB
09:48:27 [mimasa]
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09:48:38 [Andrea]
... you can query about a device or a specific device capability
09:48:53 [Andrea]
Bennett: when you index a device to a profile, how do you do the matching? 1 to 1?
09:49:17 [Andrea]
Chris: what I call an instance of a phone is the sum of all the HTTP headers
09:49:28 [Andrea]
... not necessarily all device of the model will match that instance
09:49:56 [Andrea]
... sessions tend not to change in time
09:50:14 [Andrea]
... we calculate the profile once and cache.
09:50:40 [Andrea]
09:51:50 [Andrea]
Chris: we have a lot of fields that will tell you is_series_60, is_xhtml, is_wml
09:51:56 [Andrea]
... seem really useful to us
09:52:14 [Andrea]
... tries to identify the browser and separately the JVM, for example
09:52:28 [Andrea]
... tries to identify the different software parts of the device
09:52:54 [Andrea]
ack Luca
09:53:32 [Andrea]
Luca: supporting a certain mime type does not mean the full support. xHTML is a good example, its support does not mean tables are supported
09:53:46 [Andrea]
Chris: we try to be very conservative
09:53:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
09:55:05 [Andrea]
Bennett: there is a lot of alternative about how you create data. Real testing, reading documentation, etc.
09:55:12 [Andrea]
... this all goes down to the trust metrics
09:55:37 [Andrea]
Chris: there is a trust system in our solution that is about how we get the data
09:56:11 [Andrea]
Bennett: algorythm can be very powerful, but there can always be some kind of exception
09:58:21 [Andrea]
09:58:59 [Andrea]
Chris: geo-location service. We cache ip ranges to make this faster
10:00:58 [Andrea]
10:07:16 [Andrea]
Rotan: how do you see yourself in this working group?
10:07:42 [Andrea]
njal: we would be happy to see a standard, but also fear the standard might be too different from our existing architecture
10:07:55 [Andrea]
Rotan: there is certainly a lack of standard in this field
10:08:20 [Andrea]
njal: I think we should start with standardizing the interface or might get into a work that is too big and too far in the future
10:09:00 [Andrea]
Rotan: your service seems like a live proof of concept
10:09:07 [Andrea]
... thank you for the presentation
10:09:27 [Andrea]
Topic: WALL overview
10:09:55 [Andrea]
Luca: this was not a planned introduction, but seemed like there was an interest
10:10:17 [Andrea]
(Rotan gives some extra cycles to his computer)
10:11:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
10:16:40 [Andrea]
Luca: WURFL could be considered by some as UAProf on steroids
10:16:55 [Andrea]
Bennett: someone else might think it's castrated UAProf
10:37:13 [Andrea]
Jose: do you think this satisfies all the needs?
10:37:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
10:37:50 [Andrea]
Luca: WALL is for people who don't know much about mobile or even nothing. They take WALL, build this HTML-like pages and WALL takes care of everything
10:38:02 [Andrea]
... if you are an operator or a big portal, you do it on your own
10:38:09 [Andrea]
... or take WALL as a basis and extend
10:38:35 [Rotan]
10:38:50 [Andrea]
jose: how about pagination? CSS?
10:39:00 [Andrea]
Luca: that's a feature that should be added in the future
10:39:33 [Andrea]
... on the other side, picking different CSS's, I thought about it, but never made it, because I think there are other ways to do it and not bind it to WALL and WURFL
10:39:47 [Andrea]
... JSTL gives you all the tool you need, for example
10:40:11 [Andrea]
Jose: maintaining a lot of if, then can be a pain
10:40:22 [Andrea]
Luca: correct, but WALL already takes away a lot of the complexity
10:40:27 [Andrea]
Rotan: ok, thank you Luca
10:41:14 [Andrea]
... WALL is not so different from the DISelect features
10:41:24 [Andrea]
Topic: open Debate
10:41:46 [Andrea]
Rotan: after some talks with the participants, I would like to start talking about the nature of the DDR
10:41:59 [Andrea]
... single database? WURFL-like, for example
10:42:42 [Andrea]
... feature requirements seem to actually aim for a framework where more entities can contribute and not a single central service
10:42:54 [Andrea]
... we should think about this framework
10:43:02 [Andrea]
... a federated DB can be a solution
10:43:15 [Andrea]
... provides the feature of multiple contributors
10:43:26 [Andrea]
... also brings conflicts that will need to be resolved
10:43:50 [Andrea]
... would provide the advantage of accessing different points of access, not a single place that might become unreachable
10:44:09 [Luca_Passani]
10:44:21 [Andrea]
... should we talk about this framework or should we limit our discussion about the communication interface?
10:44:52 [Andrea]
Stephane: if you want to work specifically on the API, then yes. If you want to consider an entire node, then you will need to talk the entire architecture
10:44:56 [Rotan]
10:45:13 [Andrea]
DaveS: I think it's important that we agree that we are not going to build a new database within the W3C
10:45:29 [Andrea]
... there are already existing realities such as WURFL that could be a node of this federated system
10:45:52 [Andrea]
... I think we need to clear up that we are not going to collect all the available data and make a new DB
10:45:54 [Rotan]
ack luca
10:45:55 [Andrea]
Rotan: right
10:46:14 [Andrea]
Stephane: are you against the idea of working on the basic idea of working on the basic properties
10:46:30 [Andrea]
DaveS: that's a different question. The prototype and the data collection are not the same
10:46:45 [Andrea]
... work on the 5 properties does not mean we are working on the database
10:47:12 [Andrea]
... the 5 properties should be in the next charter. Take WURFL, UAProf, etc and identify these properties
10:47:43 [Andrea]
... We support the idea of feeding an open-source initiative
10:48:04 [Andrea]
Bennett: I think we're confusing the vocabulary issue with the creation on the database
10:48:27 [Andrea]
... if you want to get into the business of the vocabulary, that does not have anything to do with "storing" it
10:48:52 [Andrea]
... if you get into the business of HOW architecture should look like, then I start having a problem with that.
10:49:06 [Andrea]
... I don't think the W3C is place to talk about how people should manage and scale data
10:49:32 [Luca_Passani]
10:49:37 [Andrea]
Rotan: my concern is that it should be clear that this repository is not replacing other existing ones
10:50:36 [Andrea]
Bennett: when you are describing a communication interface or protocol, you are not saying anything about how you store data
10:50:39 [Andrea]
... different things
10:50:47 [Andrea]
Luca: agree with Bennett and Dave 100%
10:52:12 [Andrea]
... we should work on the API and leave the rest to the implementors. Otherwise we will fight against other W3C technologies and OMA, etc.
10:52:33 [Andrea]
Bennett: at the past. CC/PP tells you how things should move around
10:53:32 [Andrea]
Luca: let's be practical
10:54:32 [sb]
10:54:34 [Andrea]
Bennett: the word Repository gives a certain idea
10:54:37 [Andrea]
q+ sb
10:54:40 [Andrea]
ack Luca
10:55:09 [Andrea]
... while here we are talking about the Device Description interface/protocol/access system
10:55:17 [Rotan]
10:55:18 [Andrea]
... we are not talking about _storing_
10:55:28 [Andrea]
... not the physical database
10:55:42 [Andrea]
... maybe the big problem you have is the original use of words
10:55:46 [Rotan]
ack sb
10:55:47 [Andrea]
Rotan: that's probably true
10:55:58 [Andrea]
Stephane: I have a different feeling.
10:56:11 [Andrea]
... the use of words is a consequence of the Barcelona Workshop
10:56:39 [Andrea]
... a need for a DD repository was described
10:57:21 [Andrea]
... the need described was that we did not want a big repository that would replace existing ones, but that a place where basic device properties would be gathered
10:57:27 [Luca_Passani]
10:57:43 [DKA]
10:57:46 [Andrea]
Yam: it could have been a Device Descriptions Framework
10:57:49 [Andrea]
q+ dka
10:58:01 [Andrea]
Stephane: Dan was there, what is your feeling
10:58:03 [Andrea]
ack dka
10:58:18 [Andrea]
Dan: first I want to say that the API should be a keyword in the re-charter
10:58:28 [Andrea]
... it needs to be established and draw consensus around that
10:58:58 [Andrea]
... and this is a separate issue if we should make a prototype, reference implementation or host the repository
10:59:09 [Andrea]
... the API will still be a valuable thing
10:59:14 [Andrea]
... and then the vocabulary
10:59:47 [Andrea]
... do I still feel the need for the repository? Yes
10:59:57 [Andrea]
... but it's still not clear to me who should build and run it
11:00:11 [sb]
11:00:28 [Andrea]
Bennett: I would propose that one thing seems clear to me, is that UAProf represents a place where the sematics formalism should stay
11:00:30 [Andrea]
q+ sb
11:00:41 [Andrea]
... there is no other place that captures the semantics
11:01:01 [Andrea]
... whatever vocabulary you come up with, it should be an OMA work item
11:01:06 [nacho]
11:01:12 [Andrea]
q+ nacho
11:01:19 [Andrea]
ack Luca
11:01:49 [Andrea]
Luca: it's ok that UAProf is where we agree on the semantics, but then this should not mean that UAProf should be the protocol
11:02:13 [Andrea]
... API for developers should be simple
11:02:30 [Andrea]
JuanJo: what about the syntax?
11:02:48 [Andrea]
Bennett: that's another thing. UAProf went through a lot of problems such as case matching
11:02:56 [Andrea]
... we have a lot of experience
11:03:26 [Andrea]
... we need to have a single place where the semantics is agreed
11:03:29 [Andrea]
11:03:33 [Andrea]
ack sb
11:03:43 [Andrea]
Stephane: we are not talking about how you retrive data
11:03:46 [Luca_Passani]
11:03:59 [Andrea]
... is this a topic we should work on?
11:04:39 [Andrea]
nacho: I would like to comment about the architecture...
11:04:53 [Andrea]
... key to the success to this is to have a simple API
11:05:04 [Andrea]
... that gives to people a vision of the node
11:05:24 [Andrea]
... and the API should be a request that lets me retrive a single DD or a set of DD
11:05:40 [Andrea]
... and leaves to me the implementation
11:05:41 [Andrea]
... and leaves to me the implementation
11:05:55 [Andrea]
... I could query another DDR in the background and then deal with the results
11:06:30 [Andrea]
Rotan: I think Luca wanted to say that the API should be the same when a client makes a request to the DDR and the API the DDR's use to communicate to each other
11:06:44 [Andrea]
... Also, we should do something that will not break everything in the future
11:07:01 [Andrea]
Bennett: jumping back to the import/export issuee
11:07:06 [Andrea]
... thinking out loud
11:07:11 [Rotan]
11:07:16 [Rotan]
ack nac
11:07:17 [Andrea]
... if you agree UAProf is the definition of the semantics
11:07:39 [Andrea]
... it seems to me that UAProf should be the transport method to communicate among DDR's
11:10:07 [Andrea]
... UAProf could be the universal interchange protocol
11:10:42 [Andrea]
s/interchange protocol/interchange system/
11:10:55 [Andrea]
... I think I propose UAProf as the format interchange system
11:10:55 [Rotan]
11:10:59 [Andrea]
ack Andrea
11:11:37 [Rotan]
The seed of DDWG - from the original MWI workshop -
11:12:24 [Andrea]
Andrea: how do you see the UAProf vocabulary as compared to the one that this WG might come up with
11:12:35 [Andrea]
Bennett: the original vocabulary was drafted in 1999
11:12:41 [Andrea]
... and was supposed to evolve
11:12:53 [Andrea]
... my own opinion is that it is now time to update it
11:13:39 [Andrea]
... probably on the OMA side there is a lack of transparency in this process.
11:14:32 [RRSAgent]
11:14:44 [Andrea]
Andrea: your proposal for UAProf as an interchange system is about the structure, right? Not the entire specification
11:14:52 [Andrea]
Bennett: correct, just the serialization
11:15:06 [Andrea]
Jose: some information might get lost using UAProf because it is lacking some information
11:15:26 [Andrea]
s/some information/some mechanisms to achive the full data we want to have/
11:15:51 [Andrea]
Bennett: I think this goes back to the discussion we had this morning. There seems to be a big disagreement
11:15:57 [Andrea]
... on what data we will have
11:16:00 [Andrea]
... in the DDR
11:16:04 [Andrea]
... that needs to be agreed
11:16:11 [Andrea]
... and then we can talk more about this
11:16:39 [Andrea]
JuanJo: we really want to have the ability to export data from the repository and import it into another repository EXACTLY as it was before exporting
11:17:56 [Andrea]
Rotan: session is over
11:18:00 [Andrea]
... meet after lunch
11:18:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
11:24:03 [asamim]
asamim has joined #ddwg
12:12:08 [RCasero]
RCasero has joined #ddwg
12:21:27 [ronan]
ronan has joined #ddwg
12:23:18 [mimasa]
mimasa has joined #ddwg
12:24:29 [RRSAgent]
12:26:55 [asamim]
asamim has joined #ddwg
12:29:14 [Luca_Passani]
Luca_Passani has joined #ddwg
12:30:00 [cedric]
cedric has joined #ddwg
12:33:04 [mimasa]
Topic: DDWG Charter discussion
12:43:58 [Rotan]
ScribeNick: Rotan
12:44:23 [asamim]
12:44:36 [Rotan]
(See summary doc that includes bullet points of items for inclusion in new charter)
12:45:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
12:46:31 [Rotan]
Rotan has joined #ddwg
12:46:57 [nacho]
nacho has joined #ddwg
12:47:23 [Rotan]
Luca: could add metadata later in WURFL. We define api to retrieve info. Up to other reposositories to provide interfaces.
12:47:30 [Rotan]
Quality and Trust costs money.
12:47:48 [Rotan]
BM: There's the business op. Added value. Pay-for-trust...
12:51:43 [Rotan]
Business ops come from creativity in implementations.
12:52:23 [Rotan]
Luca: I see many "implementations" in the s/w industry. Many DBs implementing variations on SQL... etc.
12:54:49 [Andrea]
Andrea has joined #ddwg
12:59:38 [Andrea]
13:01:07 [mimasa]
13:01:57 [Rotan]
Ambition - all freely given information should have some free DDR mechanism for getting this data.
13:02:45 [Rotan]
BM: W3C should take proactive stand on the rules associated with access to data.
13:03:24 [Luca_Passani]
13:03:27 [Rotan]
... Pay for value-add is OK.
13:04:30 [Rotan]
... Perhaps to enforce it, the published data would have to come out "copyleft". Any work/derived work must also be free.
13:04:45 [Rotan]
... But don't want to force the issue of defining a value add.
13:05:07 [Rotan]
q+ jj
13:05:20 [Rotan]
ack luca
13:06:06 [Rotan]
BM: People typically derive from UAProf, not use it directly.
13:06:34 [Luca_Passani]
13:06:36 [Rotan]
... Layer 1, UAProf should continue to be free.
13:06:56 [Rotan]
... Layer 2, should also be free.
13:07:10 [Rotan]
... Value add higher up is a commercial thing.
13:07:30 [Rotan]
13:07:52 [Andrea]
q- andrea
13:07:56 [Rotan]
ack jj
13:08:29 [Andrea]
13:09:53 [Rotan]
BM: If manufacturer incurs huge cost for no obvious benefit, then manufacturer pulls out.
13:10:27 [Andrea]
I think all this and Bennett's will to chat with us shows how much Nokia is ahead of other manufacturers pretending this is not interesting for them
13:10:46 [Rotan]
ack luca
13:10:49 [Andrea]
And this means developers and companies will develop contents and services for Nokia phones FIRST and maybe for other manufacturers
13:13:06 [Rotan]
Luca: if DDR not funded then it will never see the light.
13:13:28 [Rotan]
... If we just keep it to API definition then I (WURFL) can implement it, and the commercial companies too.
13:14:15 [Andrea]
13:14:48 [MartinJ]
13:16:44 [Andrea]
Wouldn't it be great if Nokia not only exported their docs as PDF, but also as "DDR compliant format"?
13:17:01 [Rotan]
ack mar
13:17:20 [Andrea]
Isn't it weird that SonyEricsson produces PDF's about their devices, but don't join this kind of activities?
13:17:34 [Andrea]
13:17:40 [Rotan]
MJ: Need to be careful not to enter into a copyleft situation where all derived info/processes must also be free
13:18:58 [Rotan]
BM: Data available directly through DDR should be of the same level of freedom of access as the initial published data.
13:20:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
13:21:35 [Rotan]
RH: Have to be careful not to extend freedom into value-add area or it will kill the commercial opportunities.
13:22:04 [Rotan]
BM: Here representing Mom&Pop who will never be able to pay for such data.
13:22:28 [Rotan]
Luca: which is why I think W3C could be asked to implement a node of the DDR to have this data.
13:23:26 [Rotan]
RH: Steering Council anticipated a possible cost associated with this work, such as hosting a node.
13:24:20 [Rotan]
... Commercials invoved to grow the market.
13:28:03 [asamim]
asamim has joined #ddwg
13:28:15 [asamim]
13:28:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
13:41:00 [mimasa2]
mimasa2 has joined #ddwg
13:43:59 [jcantera]
jcantera has joined #ddwg
13:44:27 [Rotan]
Brainstorming ideas will be summarised in final bullet points of charter ideas.
13:44:56 [Rotan]
ack jc
13:46:57 [Rotan]
JC: Hard to mandate a policy in W3C.
13:47:43 [Rotan]
RH: Especially if Rec is open, royalty free, means policy would have no teeth.
13:48:28 [Andrea]
13:49:17 [Luca_Passani]
13:51:36 [Rotan]
RH: Steering Council has also asked us to consider the role of the UA string.
13:51:50 [Rotan]
AT: And need to consider separation of browser and device.
13:52:02 [Rotan]
ack and
13:52:05 [Rotan]
ack luc
13:52:38 [Rotan]
Luca: Perhaps use the entire set of headers as (part of) the key.
13:53:04 [Andrea]
13:53:08 [Rotan]
... Any info from the request used as part of the recognition process.
13:54:06 [Rotan]
Chris: That won't work in practice. Headers changing over time, difficult to recognise the device just on headers.
13:54:22 [Rotan]
.. They change even during a single session.
13:54:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
13:55:02 [Rotan]
BM: Would accept that header scanning is just a best-effort recognition. A hack. The only one available today.
13:55:16 [Rotan]
... This is not something that W3C should be pursuing.
13:55:37 [Rotan]
... Those headers are not there to do what we want.
13:55:50 [Rotan]
.. Unlikely to get any new header installed. Years.
13:56:28 [Rotan]
Luca: Up to implementer to decide what to do with the headers.
13:58:00 [Rotan]
RH: Think we should a deterministic query.
13:59:51 [Rotan]
13:59:55 [Luca_Passani]
13:59:57 [Rotan]
q+ dave
14:00:52 [Rotan]
q+ to suggest domain issue
14:01:29 [Rotan]
BM: But need to consider at least two dimensions. Device and browser.
14:01:48 [Rotan]
... If I install a different browser, the characteristics will change.
14:02:03 [Rotan]
... Requirement is to separate out device from UA definition.
14:02:27 [Rotan]
... Come up with objective algorithmic way to identify a device.
14:02:53 [Rotan]
... The hacks have to be resolved with a real W3C-supported approach to device recognition.
14:03:03 [Rotan]
... The SC is asking us to solve the problem.
14:03:10 [Rotan]
Luca: could be a new header?
14:03:15 [Rotan]
14:03:43 [Rotan]
BM: But there are a whole lot of reasons why a new header might not be the answer.
14:04:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
14:05:47 [mimasa2]
14:06:11 [Rotan]
ack and
14:06:13 [Rotan]
ack luc
14:06:16 [Rotan]
ack dav
14:06:49 [Rotan]
Yam: And also the dynamic properties.
14:07:18 [Luca_Passani]
14:07:20 [Luca_Passani]
14:08:40 [Rotan]
ack rot
14:08:40 [Zakim]
Rotan, you wanted to suggest domain issue
14:11:30 [Rotan]
Ed: Maybe we are to reliant on the HTTP protocols. What about streaming clients etc?
14:11:41 [Rotan]
... Need to be open to other technologies.
14:11:54 [Andrea]
s/are to/are too/
14:12:06 [Rotan]
Luca: we could have other ids for other things.
14:12:08 [Rotan]
ack luc
14:12:11 [mimasa2]
mimasa2 has joined #ddwg
14:12:54 [Rotan]
Luca: we have UAProf header but not useful because not all devices have it, and dereference to useless data.
14:13:11 [Rotan]
... Some manufacturers will never follow the technologies.
14:13:31 [Rotan]
... Perhaps we should accept that hacking will continue in order to address this.
14:13:42 [Rotan]
BM: So we get restricted because of sloppy manufacturers.
14:13:47 [Andrea]
The bottom line, again, is that Nokia helps developers and companies, they will produce contents and service for Nokia. If the others don't, they will keep being number 2
14:14:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
14:16:46 [Rotan]
BM: Have a clear policy (based in time) of update and versioning.
14:17:03 [Rotan]
... If you do ongoing update of Top N properties you need to interlock with OMA.
14:17:17 [Rotan]
... For example, an update each January 1st.
14:17:23 [Rotan]
... People need to know what to expect.
14:17:34 [Rotan]
.... This is a lesson we learned in OMA.
14:17:43 [asamim]
14:18:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
14:19:34 [Luca_Passani]
14:22:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
14:24:07 [mimasa]
Rotan: please send your comments to
14:25:23 [mimasa]
... thanks everyone for attending the Workshop
14:26:06 [mimasa]
... thanks T I+D for excellent host
14:26:20 [mimasa]
Workshop adjourned
14:26:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
14:33:25 [asamim]
rrsagent, excuse us
14:33:25 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items