IRC log of ddwg on 2006-07-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:43:32 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
07:43:47 [sboyera]
MEETING: workshop on DDR - Day 1
07:44:23 [sboyera]
07:44:46 [Andrea]
Hola Stephane
07:45:30 [sboyera]
Present: mimasa, stephane, Dan, DavidS, Ronan, Andrea, Rafael, Jose, Cedric
07:46:26 [sboyera]
Present Benett
07:46:47 [mimasa]
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07:47:15 [Andrea]
[richard from Enough Software is present. doesn't have access to the web client, AFAIK]
07:47:21 [sboyera]
Present pontus
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07:47:51 [Rotan]
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07:47:52 [sboyera]
Present Richard (Enough)
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07:49:16 [DKA]
ScribeNick: DKA
07:49:28 [DKA]
Scribe: Dan
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07:51:45 [DKA]
Rotan: Going to start the introductions.
07:51:48 [DKA]
07:51:50 [sboyera]
rrsagent, make log member
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rrsagent, make log public
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate sboyera
07:52:40 [DKA]
Rotan: Introduces self.
07:53:17 [DKA]
Rotan: our database which appears in a number of different formats is proprietary to us. We spend lots of time testing devices and accumulating information.
07:53:37 [DKA]
Rotan: That activity is a replication of effort between us and many others.
07:54:05 [DKA]
Rotan: More importantly, the mobile Web is not growing in the same way as the fixed Web. In the mobile space one piece of markup does not work on all devices.
07:54:42 [DKA]
Rotan: We believe that it should be possible for all people to create simple content for the mobile space. To that end we think there should be simple interfaces, etc...
07:55:04 [sboyera]
edouard marques - FT
07:55:37 [DKA]
Eduard: We have a solution to adapt content which doesn't satisfy us completely. We are looking to set up a new solution that would solve the issues of the existing solution. We think this workshop will help.
07:57:41 [DKA]
We are working on device descriptions in OMA and W3C. Our interestes are to facilitate the development of mobile applications. We have a content adaptation product as an open source initiative. We recognize the need of device descriptions for content adaptation to take place.
07:57:51 [RRSAgent]
07:58:03 [DKA]
We are interested that both OMA and W3C would be coordinated and that maintains compatibility between the two.
07:58:15 [sboyera]
jose: project name : morpheo
07:58:24 [Rotan]
Enrique Varela Couceiro
07:59:19 [Rotan]
Bennett Marks
07:59:20 [DKA]
Enrique: I am from Zandan, R&D director. We need not only information about markup language but how response is handled by the device to understand why things work on some devices but not others.
07:59:59 [DKA]
Bennett: I'm from Nokia. I'm also the vice-chair of OMA BAC MAE and former chair of OMA UAProf. Nokia's interest in this: we are quite active in producing UAProf profiles for every device we ship.
08:00:27 [DKA]
Bennett: we understand that UAProf has its problems. We hope that combining the learning that's going on in OMA and W3C we can apply some creative thinking here.
08:00:54 [DKA]
Bennett: one of the issues we're interested in here is that whatever we come up with here be inclusive.
08:01:44 [DKA]
Bennett: Some heavy-weight solutions tend to favor the major players. We also have to think about the small guy. Light-weight solutions as well as heavy-weight solitions. We're looking to see that the whole marketplace is represented.
08:02:06 [DKA]
[Andrea Trassati]
08:02:52 [DKA]
Andrea: I am a consltant. I have been working in WAP development since 1999. I started working with early WAP phones and have worked for the last 7 years on multi-channel services, web, wap SMS. I also worked on content delivery.
08:03:32 [DKA]
Andrea: During these years I have seen a lot of need for the development of these mobile services. In 2002 I started work on an open source project to try to help to make it possible to identify a stable framework.
08:04:04 [DKA]
Andrea: In the early days everyone was doing their own service. Key problems were in device detection. You need to know what the device can do.
08:04:52 [DKA]
Andrea: I have worked in WURLF -- open source project running since 2002. We kept it simple by using XML. Integrated with Java, PHP, ruby perl python etc...
08:05:11 [DKA]
Andrea: We track about 400 capabilities.
08:05:16 [bmarks]
08:05:34 [DKA]
08:06:03 [DKA]
Andrea: Core team is myself and Luca Passani but we have a global community providing information.
08:06:43 [DKA]
Andrea: We have a site on sourceforge -- 100 downloads per day of the XML file.
08:07:22 [DKA]
Andrea: We have been active in DDWG and we would be happy to see the wg to continue working. We would like to see more contributors. We want to have more users, and a bigger ecosystem. We want to keep covering the needs of our users.
08:07:28 [DKA]
Ronan Cremin
08:07:41 [DKA]
Ronan: I am from dotMobi
08:07:53 [DKA]
Ronan: We are not a technology company but we are supportive of ddwg
08:08:15 [DKA]
Ronan: Our stance on the repository is we would like to leverage existing information as much as possible.
08:08:22 [DKA]
Stephan Boyera
08:08:50 [Andrea]
[Stephan or Stephane?]
08:09:15 [Rotan]
08:09:16 [DKA]
Stephne: W3C is here to develop the Web to its full potential.
08:10:34 [DKA]
Flash networks. We are interested in the acceleration of content across mobile networks. We have our own repository. We would like to see as repository exist that contains as much information as possible. Having a trusted repository is crucial for us.
08:10:55 [DKA]
Mimasa: I am also working for W3C, based on Japan. I am a heavy mobile user myself.
08:11:41 [Rotan]
Bertrand Schmitt
08:11:42 [DKA]
Luca: I'm Luca Passani. I work for openwave. I find myself in the unusal position of dealing with W3C because helped create WURFL. W3C came to us so here I am.
08:12:51 [DKA]
Bertrand: We have our own database with over 1000 devices and detailed information. Our position considering the workshop. We believe that the repository should have additional information from what would be required for content rendering, such as MMS, streaming, ringtones, DRM, etc... Because this is part of the full user experience.
08:13:50 [DKA]
Bertrand: We believe that you need a trust authority to certify information. We think the wifi alliance is a good model. We need a central authority. Maybe W3C. Maybe dotMobi.
08:14:01 [Rotan]
Ignacio Marín
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08:15:51 [DKA]
Nacho: I am from CTIC. We are part of the Mobile Web Initiative, also participating in the MWBP.
08:15:56 [Rotan]
Rafael Casero
08:16:59 [DKA]
Rafael: We have developed services including our own device repository. We think a device repository will improve the user experience for the mobile Web.
08:17:15 [Rotan]
Cedric Kiss
08:17:27 [DKA]
Cedric: I'm also from W3C. I've been involved since January this year in W3C. I will be working on next charter for DDWG.
08:17:32 [Rotan]
Martin Jones
08:17:41 [DKA]
Martin: I'm from Volantis. [presents from slides]
08:19:31 [DKA]
Martin: I've been in the company from the beginning which was in 2000. The objective was bringing the Web to mobile devices. We have about 150 employees. We're active in W3C. We're keen on promoting anything that will help the market in terms of the Mobile Web. A free device repository could be seen as a threat to us but we also see a big upside to growing the mobile web as a market. Also there is lots of duplication of effort right now.
08:20:56 [DKA]
Martin: Our software adapts services for tens of millions of end users. We have a proprietary database with over 3000 devices. We track over 500 attributes per device. Some information is uniqe volantis information that couldn't be expressed in a standardized way but have of it could be.
08:22:20 [DKA]
Martin: Issues with DD sources: primary sources from device manufacturers and browser vendors are often missing, invalid, inaccurate, incomplete, inconsistent and/or inadequate.
08:22:54 [DKA]
Martin: There is a need for an authoriative source of device information.
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08:23:40 [DKA]
Martin: having a standard dd helps us but also helps the market grow.
08:24:02 [DKA]
Martin: [presents slide on thoughts on the proposed DDR]
08:25:01 [DKA]
Martin: Key issues: scoping, authority, extensibility, trust. Device manufacturers should be the main but not the exclusive source of DDR content.
08:25:16 [DKA]
[David Sanders]
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08:26:49 [DKA]
David: I work in OMA and 3GPP and have been working in the device descriptions working group. We have many operating companies. Each of these have different repositories which duplicate effort. I want to think about open source standards. How do we make a mind-shift? Trustworthiness of information is a key issue we need to think about.
08:27:02 [DKA]
David: I'd like to see a lot more participation in the DDWG as well.
08:28:17 [DaveS]
Dan has repsonsibility of mobile internet initiatives in Vodafone and also chairs the BPWG in MWI
08:29:04 [bmarks]
BPWG needs DD info to support best practices statements.
08:30:14 [DaveS]
This may also include information from OMA, e.g. base MIME types
08:30:38 [Rotan]
Richard Nkrumah
08:31:08 [DKA]
Richard: I am from a small software provider in Germany. Our product is a framework for developing applicaitons.
08:32:46 [DKA]
Richard: We have clients, widgets which can be styled with CSS. All of this is controlled by preprocessing. We are a big fan of open source technology. All of this is based on a device database of our own. We track information like what bugs the device have, etc...
08:33:44 [DKA]
Richard: Our next step is to create an interactive device database so users can upload their own descriptions of devices manually or through midlets. Device descriptions can be reviewed and customers can download stable versions of these capabilities.
08:34:02 [DKA]
Richard: offline access is important as well.
08:34:50 [Rotan]
Pontus Carlsson
08:35:42 [DKA]
Pontus: Drutt does a lot of device testing to maintain its repository. There is a lot of duplication here. We need this information to be available in a public DDR in a trustable and extensible way. We have been a member of DDWG from beginning and we hope to contribute to the next charter.
08:35:44 [Rotan]
Chris Abbott
08:36:18 [DKA]
Chris: I am from Mobile Phone Wizards. We just launched a publicly available device repository based on Web Services. We're an example of a small company you're trying to make the Mobile Web accessibile to.
08:37:28 [Luca_Passani]
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08:37:43 [DKA]
Chris: I have a content site that sells mobile content. In many cases you need to become an expert in order to deal with device descriptions. Everyone knows that UAProf does not go far enough. Even with some solutions such as wurlf you still need to know lots about the devices. We created a repository which can be queried using a web service.
08:38:00 [DKA]
Chris: Our repository can be used for free.
08:38:02 [Luca_Passani]
hi everyone. Sorry I was late. How do I add myself to the speaker queue? q+?
08:38:05 [Luca_Passani]
08:38:27 [sboyera]
there is no queue mngt
08:38:29 [sboyera]
let me add it
08:38:34 [Zakim]
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08:38:36 [Rotan]
(There's no speaker queue until we have concluded introductions)
08:38:42 [sboyera]
08:38:45 [Luca_Passani]
08:39:03 [sboyera]
any idea why my plus got dropped ?
08:39:04 [DKA]
Chris: Accept header seems to be ignored because it's not accurate because many smart phones tend to hide their capabilities.
08:39:13 [sboyera]
08:39:39 [DKA]
Chris: We've tackled a lot of the problems that are up for discussion and came up with solution so we'd like to throw that into the pot.
08:39:50 [DKA]
Chris: Why isn't Microsoft here?
08:40:38 [DKA]
Chris: There are lot of Microsof users that have been left out of the loop -- we want to bring those people in as well.
08:41:16 [DKA]
Chris: Necessity of trust in the data is proportional to the size of your client. A lot of programmers don't care if it's "verified" or just "mostly accurate".
08:41:44 [DKA]
Chris: Most programmers would only use 5 maybe 10 fields out of hundreds available.
08:42:18 [DKA]
Chris: As long as the information is mostly accurate then they can support most of the customers.
08:43:07 [DKA]
Chris: For example, MP3 support. We have mp3 in our repository but not "how" these are supported.
08:43:16 [DaveS]
Level of Trust in terms of available device information is a key discussion point for the workshop.
08:43:20 [DKA]
Chris: But our cusomers mostly do not need this additional information.
08:43:49 [DKA]
Chris: Our system is real-time as well.
08:43:49 [Rotan]
Njål Hansen Wilberg
08:43:57 [DKA]
08:44:40 [DKA]
08:45:18 [Rotan]
HHW: Want increased focus on device detection
08:45:20 [mimasa]
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08:45:25 [Rotan]
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08:47:13 [DaveS]
08:47:31 [Rotan]
ack luca
08:48:25 [RRSAgent]
08:48:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
08:49:09 [DKA]
Luca: I wanted to make it clear what Openwave's postion is wrt WURLF. WURLF is not a replacement of UAProf. WURFL builds on UAProf.
08:49:55 [DKA]
Luca: Some companies might start with WURFL but then move to a commercial system.
08:50:13 [Rotan]
q bmarks
08:50:16 [DKA]
Luca: If we specify the API to the DDR.
08:50:20 [Rotan]
q+ bmarks
08:50:44 [DKA]
Luca: One last point about trust.
08:51:48 [DKA]
Luca: The reason why WURFL is here is that we can bring the developer community to what we create as long as WURFL is part of it. But we cannot conflict with the open source nature of WURFL.
08:52:13 [Rotan]
ack dave
08:52:17 [DKA]
Rotan: The issue is you need to know what the trust is.
08:52:56 [DKA]
Dave: Two observations: We tried hard in the DD group not to focus on any particular implementations. We skipped around the trust debate. We are not saying that trusted data is a requirement.
08:53:32 [Rotan]
ack bm
08:53:34 [DKA]
Dave: 2. we haven't got Microsoft and we haven't got a lot of terminal vendors here. We haven't got content developers or tool vendors. Whatever we do in the next 2 days we have to remember that these guys aren't here.
08:55:01 [DaveS]
We need to consider Trust but we didn't discuss in detail
08:55:24 [DKA]
Bennett: 3 observations: In my mind there is a spectrum of models. Scope needs to be determined. Scope of UAProf is "user agent". If we are to say we are scoping ourselves to browser and browser type issues, that would drive us down a different route than "everything a device is capable of."
08:55:31 [DKA]
q to talk on scope
08:55:38 [DKA]
08:55:46 [DKA]
plus key is not working.
08:55:56 [Rotan]
q+ to talk on scope
08:56:00 [Rotan]
08:56:09 [Rotan]
q+ Dan, to talk on scope
08:56:14 [sboyera]
same problem here
08:56:24 [Andrea]
q+ to talk about WURFL's original scope and current scope
08:56:41 [sboyera]
08:57:00 [Luca_Passani]
08:57:01 [DKA]
Bennett: one of the things that made UAProf both forward looking and difficult was reliance on RDF. There is a huge smantic prooblem in bringing together the data in wurfl and the propritary databases. How do you deal with the semantics.
08:57:02 [Andrea]
q+ sboyera
08:57:11 [sboyera]
thanks !
08:57:41 [DKA]
Rotan: The issues of semantics have been raised.
08:58:03 [Rotan]
08:58:06 [Andrea]
08:58:10 [Rotan]
ack dan
08:58:10 [Zakim]
Dan, you wanted to talk on scope
09:02:11 [DKA]
Stephane: for dynamic properities there are technical issues to solve. We were missing a unified repository. We all agree that dynamic properties are very important. But the first step is having a homoginized and standards-based repository for the static data.
09:02:14 [sboyera]
09:02:40 [Rotan]
ack andrea
09:02:41 [Zakim]
Andrea, you wanted to talk about WURFL's original scope and current scope
09:02:50 [DKA]
Rotan: Issues we need to debate: What is the scope, what do we do with namespacing and dynmic properties.
09:03:57 [DKA]
Andrea: WURFL originally started with the scope of browsing but since 2002 the scope has become wider. We have more and more cabilities to track. Most of the participants said that the repository should be extensible. The point is that the repository should be extensible.
09:04:58 [DaveS]
09:05:31 [DKA]
Jose: We think that this could be a good opportunity to set up a general framework for device descriptions. In the W3C scope the capabilities to be defined would initially have to do with browsing but could be expanded.
09:06:28 [DKA]
Bennett: the architectural decisions you will make based on that scope are different.
09:06:32 [Rotan]
ack luca
09:07:35 [DKA]
Luca: For us as WURFL it's OK both ways. We can focus on the mobile Web or more. My point is about the semantics. I started from the other way -- I want something simple. Screen width 174.
09:08:03 [DKA]
Luca: UAProf and WURFL are at different levels.
09:08:33 [Rotan]
ack dan
09:08:41 [Rotan]
(Coffee next!)
09:09:08 [Rotan]
Dan: want this group to focus on the issues of browsing.
09:09:31 [Rotan]
Dan: Scope helps us make architectural decisions.
09:10:08 [DKA]
09:10:30 [DKA]
Dan: Exensibility is also key.
09:11:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
09:28:40 [sboyera]
Scribe: steph
09:28:48 [sboyera]
09:29:00 [sboyera]
Topic: PResentation from FT
09:29:14 [sboyera]
edouard Marques
09:31:23 [Rotan]
(Copies of presentation files will be circulated after presentations)
09:31:58 [RRSAgent]
09:32:50 [asamim]
Chair: Rotan
09:33:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
09:36:06 [sboyera]
q on slide 6
09:36:31 [Rotan]
q+ sboy, on slide 6
09:36:52 [Rotan]
q+ sboyera, on slide 6
09:36:55 [Luca_Passani]
09:37:03 [DaveS]
On slide 6 is the proposal to do validation and verification?
09:39:14 [DaveS]
09:39:43 [sboyera]
i was first !
09:39:56 [Andrea]
09:40:13 [Rotan]
q+ jose
09:40:21 [Rotan]
ack dan
09:41:12 [mimasa]
mimasa has joined #ddwg
09:42:42 [sboyera]
steph: don't understand left side of slide 6, validation and verif can be done per repository, but don't understand validation from a set of repositories ?
09:42:48 [Rotan]
ack dka
09:43:27 [sboyera]
Edouard : yes, the important part is validation, it may be hard to construct a profile from multiple rep. and check that
09:43:39 [sboyera]
rotan: difference between verification and validation
09:43:59 [sboyera]
luca: thank you, don't know why but thank you
09:44:14 [sboyera]
don't understand the right side
09:44:37 [sboyera]
3 different api for 3 repositories ?
09:44:42 [sboyera]
dont we need just one
09:44:47 [sboyera]
09:46:01 [bmarks]
09:46:06 [Rotan]
q+ Njal
09:46:18 [bmarks]
q bmarks
09:46:22 [sboyera]
edouard : yes there is a bracket, one api
09:46:39 [sboyera]
luca: automatic test ?
09:46:52 [bmarks]
q bmarks
09:46:59 [Andrea]
q+ bmarks
09:47:13 [sboyera]
edouard: verifycation of format of the data
09:47:18 [Rotan]
09:47:22 [Rotan]
ack luca
09:47:31 [sboyera]
edouard: validation and not verification
09:47:35 [Rotan]
ack daves
09:47:43 [sboyera]
dave: verification is important
09:47:59 [sboyera]
edouard: open question on how to do verif.
09:48:27 [sboyera]
dave: how to we achieve semantics in each rep.
09:48:28 [sboyera]
09:48:41 [sboyera]
and what are you new solutions ?
09:49:08 [sboyera]
ft is developping a new solution or want to fix existing solutions ?
09:49:23 [sboyera]
edouard: new solutions and not new technologies
09:49:34 [Rotan]
FT wants standardised semantics with reliable information
09:50:34 [Rotan]
09:51:05 [sboyera]
bennet: that's why in hte charter it said "device desc. evolution"
09:51:07 [Rotan]
BM: Want to build on existing material. Now message saying we would throw stuff away.
09:51:22 [sboyera]
09:51:45 [sboyera]
rotan: super repository relying on existing rep.
09:52:00 [Rotan]
ack jose
09:52:03 [sboyera]
edouard: tricky part to unify existing solutions, but this is the objectives
09:53:39 [sboyera]
steph: what is new is the hat, unification of exisiting repos.
09:54:40 [sboyera]
edouard: dynamic properties, personnal setup,... should be managed by the op. and not public
09:55:07 [Rotan]
09:55:54 [Rotan]
Edouard: much more advanced now in mobile info than in fixed info.
09:56:04 [Rotan]
ack njal
09:56:07 [sboyera]
edouard: i think the framework may benefit not only to mobile
09:56:25 [sboyera]
Njal: what is a device ? what is the definition ?
09:57:28 [sboyera]
otan: defined in the charter of the group
09:57:35 [sboyera]
09:58:17 [nacho]
09:58:19 [sboyera]
edouard: our position is to extend this definition
09:58:48 [sboyera]
rotan: we are all working under an umbrella
09:58:53 [sboyera]
the mwi umbrella
09:59:23 [Rotan]
ack bmarks
09:59:54 [sboyera]
Bennett: slide 6: interesting dynamic in the market : no DB used directly
09:59:59 [Luca_Passani]
10:00:09 [sboyera]
what are requirements ?
10:00:30 [sboyera]
none data used on real-time basis
10:00:37 [sboyera]
processed before
10:00:45 [sboyera]
that's why update is that hard
10:00:56 [sboyera]
the info is not updated on real-time
10:01:16 [sboyera]
Luca: wurfl is used that way
10:01:38 [sboyera]
bennett: important point
10:01:45 [sboyera]
about real time
10:02:15 [sboyera]
need a business model behing the update
10:02:39 [Andrea]
10:03:27 [sboyera]
jose: the api is independent of the rep.
10:03:29 [Andrea]
[developers download the XML and store it locally and then access data in real-time]
10:03:48 [sboyera]
yes it is what i thought and thus bennett point is right
10:03:49 [Andrea]
[some even have automatic checking and downloading of the XML]
10:03:59 [Rotan]
10:04:26 [Rotan]
ack nacho
10:04:27 [sboyera]
Topic: debate
10:04:41 [sboyera]
Nacho: static vs dynamic
10:04:56 [sboyera]
static things here today, would be dynamic tomorrow
10:05:15 [sboyera]
we should consider that
10:05:23 [sboyera]
10:06:40 [sboyera]
rotan: if the property is static or dynamic, the query can be the same
10:06:52 [sboyera]
then there is eventing
10:07:07 [sboyera]
Bennett: you are missing a point : where the info is coming from
10:07:32 [sboyera]
dynamic properties known only the device
10:07:46 [sboyera]
from architectural point, the device have to be included
10:07:56 [Andrea]
[DPE spec]
10:08:07 [sboyera]
dpe ?
10:08:19 [Andrea]
[device profile evolution, OMA spec]
10:08:26 [Rotan]
10:08:29 [Andrea]
10:08:49 [sboyera]
10:08:57 [Rotan]
q+ edouard
10:09:55 [bmarks]
q\ bmarks
10:10:00 [Andrea]
q+ bmarks
10:11:16 [sboyera]
rotan: scoping is very important
10:11:25 [sboyera]
luca: think that nacho point is valid
10:11:26 [Rotan]
ack luca
10:11:41 [sboyera]
we need to clarify
10:13:35 [sboyera]
jose: nightmare if different api for dynamic and static
10:14:02 [Andrea]
q+ to say that the dynamic profile should not be a problem for the DDR "consumer", but the DDR should take care of it transparently
10:14:38 [nacho]
+1 to what andrea will say
10:15:00 [sboyera]
q to say that it is so easy to consider the device as another source of device info
10:15:16 [Andrea]
q+ sboyera to say that it is so easy to consider the device as another source of device info
10:15:17 [nacho]
[but taking into account that it will transparently will have to deal with it]
10:16:10 [sboyera]
Bennett: addind a dimension : multiple browsers
10:16:26 [Luca_Passani]
10:16:30 [sboyera]
we should take into the picture
10:16:44 [Rotan2]
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10:16:47 [sboyera]
we are ignoring the separation between UA and device
10:18:51 [sboyera]
Chris: we solved this problem : different profiles, different instances of the same device
10:21:11 [Andrea]
10:21:13 [mimasa]
10:21:36 [Andrea]
ack sboyera
10:21:36 [Zakim]
sboyera, you wanted to say that it is so easy to consider the device as another source of device info
10:23:07 [Rotan2]
ack bmarks
10:23:16 [sboyera]
rotan: the UA string discussion should take place, use or not...
10:23:33 [sboyera]
Bennett: 3 dimensional space: dynamic properties, browsers and device
10:23:39 [Rotan2]
What is our scope with this space of multiple info sources?
10:23:46 [Rotan2]
10:23:48 [sboyera]
and we should scope in each dimension where we go
10:23:55 [Rotan2]
ack ed
10:24:21 [mimasa]
cf. cf. Client-Specific Web Services by Using User Agent Attributes:
10:24:37 [Rotan2]
Ed: wants to consider highly dynamic vs occassionally dynamic properties.
10:24:45 [sboyera]
edouard: dyn. properties : static properties which never change, semi-dynamic properties like installing a new UA, and highly-dynamic properties
10:25:04 [mimasa]
s/cf cf/cf/
10:25:40 [sboyera]
ed: very difficult for highly dynamic
10:26:07 [sboyera]
ed: for the snd type, operator getting the notice should be able to update the profile
10:26:09 [Rotan2]
ack andrea
10:26:09 [Zakim]
Andrea, you wanted to say that the dynamic profile should not be a problem for the DDR "consumer", but the DDR should take care of it transparently
10:26:22 [sboyera]
andrea: browser == a piece of software
10:26:53 [mimasa]
10:27:07 [sboyera]
lots of things can be installed. we should separate the physical aspect of the device and the software capabilities
10:28:24 [Rotan2]
ack luca
10:29:10 [sboyera]
luca: i think we should draw the line to not consider the dynamic part
10:29:42 [DaveS]
10:29:43 [sboyera]
api yes, if we want to waste our time we should go in the dyn. properties
10:30:09 [Rotan2]
q+ Bertrand
10:30:48 [sboyera]
bennett: i was not saying where should be the line, just defining the bound
10:31:03 [sboyera]
we have to understand the whole sace to make the reasonalbe decision
10:32:09 [sboyera]
andrea: the api should be simple, and the ddr should be able to find out the informatoin (comm with the device and so on)
10:32:44 [mimasa]
10:33:03 [sboyera]
andrea: we should focus on 10 or 20 properties and not go further and let the market do that
10:33:06 [Rotan2]
ack dave
10:33:36 [sboyera]
andrea: i'm thinking of 2 api : for developpers and for the ddr access
10:34:52 [sboyera]
dave: we have the api : query-response but not the other
10:35:03 [sboyera]
rotan: we will review the req. doc later
10:35:23 [Andrea]
10:35:28 [Rotan2]
ack bert
10:35:51 [sboyera]
bertand: we have 2 api, for developer api, and middleware api
10:36:05 [sboyera]
2 very different set of stuff
10:36:06 [mimasa]
10:36:38 [sboyera]
bertrand: we are forgetting to speak about the objectives at the end f the WS
10:37:13 [sboyera]
clear decision needeed: source of data, verification, public basic ddr
10:37:25 [sboyera]
10:37:28 [sboyera]
we will have to take actions at te end
10:38:24 [sboyera]
rotan: yes the aim to have a roadmap for the group (charter)
10:38:59 [sboyera]
richard: important point: vocabulary.
10:39:10 [sboyera]
vocabulary means structure, whaich structure for the ddr ?
10:39:19 [Luca_Passani]
10:40:15 [Luca_Passani]
10:41:23 [Rotan2]
ack luca
10:41:31 [sboyera]
luca: i understand the point
10:42:11 [sboyera]
but i don't see any exit
10:42:49 [sboyera]
but i think we should start with something practical
10:43:21 [sboyera]
[end of debate]
10:43:36 [sboyera]
Topic: round up : agenda for this afternoon
10:43:48 [mimasa]
10:43:56 [sboyera]
rotan: review of the dd-landscape
10:45:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
10:49:34 [Luca_Passani]
10:50:07 [sboyera]
bennett: missing in landscape: state that metadata need to be injected at different points in the delivery chain
10:50:17 [sboyera]
missing one dimension
10:53:01 [sboyera]
daves: different actors in the chain come at diffrent time ?
10:53:14 [sboyera]
bennett: yes, that's the missing part
10:53:44 [sboyera]
rotan: yes, please write it down
10:53:46 [Rotan2]
ack luca
10:54:00 [sboyera]
ACTION: bennett to review DD-landscape and send his comments
10:54:23 [sboyera]
luca: you are adding too much dimension
10:54:45 [sboyera]
a new dimension makes things far more complicated
10:55:16 [iaki]
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10:57:24 [sboyera]
bennett: defining the problem is a key action, where we cut the line
10:57:45 [sboyera]
is another problem, but cutting the line without considering the problem in a whole is a problem
10:57:56 [sboyera]
and the landscape should take all the dimensions
10:58:09 [sboyera]
rotan: agreed
10:59:17 [Rotan2]
10:59:23 [sboyera]
bennett: lots coming from barcelona WS
10:59:29 [Rotan2]
(Lunch next)
10:59:42 [sboyera]
the goal was to understand who is pyaing the cost and who is taking advantage
10:59:55 [sboyera]
to avoid mismatch
11:00:17 [sboyera]
hard to convince for indirect benefits and direct costs
11:00:25 [sboyera]
at nokia
11:00:56 [sboyera]
11:01:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
11:51:05 [cgi-irc]
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11:52:19 [Martin]
Martin has joined #ddwg
12:03:26 [RRSAgent]
12:07:38 [asamim]
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12:19:24 [RRSAgent]
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12:32:34 [Andrea]
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12:32:52 [Andrea]
scribenick: Andrea
12:33:01 [Andrea]
topic: MobileAware presentation
12:34:34 [Luca_Passani]
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12:37:15 [Andrea]
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12:42:13 [Luca_Passani]
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12:45:54 [Andrea]
DavidS: OMA is working on a central source for UAProfiles
12:46:07 [Andrea]
Rotan: aren't there just a few files?
12:46:13 [Andrea]
bmarks: I'd say about 100
12:46:18 [Andrea]
Andrea: how many from Nokia?
12:46:27 [Andrea]
Bennett: probably half of them
12:46:43 [Andrea]
12:48:28 [RRSAgent]
12:49:30 [sboyera]
12:51:03 [Andrea]
q+ sboyera
12:51:40 [sboyera]
thks Andrea for the plus-disable community
12:51:56 [DaveS]
12:51:57 [mimasa]
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12:52:06 [Andrea]
[I know you are a minority, but you still get the right to speak... sometimes... when I like that to happen. :D ]
12:52:16 [sboyera]
12:52:46 [mimasa]
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12:53:39 [Andrea]
Rotan: thank you for the attention
12:53:41 [Andrea]
ack Luca
12:54:02 [Andrea]
Luca: what do you mean by adoption by specialists?
12:54:22 [Andrea]
Rotan: specialists like us, can't adopt your solution, but we aknoledge the existence of WURFL
12:55:08 [DKA]
q to suggest open source vs. commercial software out of scope for this workshop.
12:55:13 [Andrea]
Luca: I disagree about the non-easy integration. With open-source you can hack the software just make it work with your solution. Often commercial products are the opposite
12:55:22 [Andrea]
q+ dka to suggest open source vs. commercial software out of scope for this workshop.
12:55:36 [DKA]
12:55:42 [bmarks]
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12:55:51 [bmarks]
q bmarks
12:56:06 [Andrea]
Rotan: commericial entities don't agree on this. We think that if there was a common interface it would be easier to integrate with existing products
12:56:08 [Andrea]
q+ bmarks
12:56:32 [Andrea]
DKA: I don't want to get into the war between OSS and commercial
12:57:30 [Andrea]
Rotan: I only said that it's hard to integrate commercial products and WURFL. If there was a common interface, then it would be easier
12:58:05 [Andrea]
Jose: aren't you using open-source software in your software?
12:58:26 [Andrea]
Rotan: yes, some things, such as DOM parser. But we some things can't be done at commercial grade. it's just pieces
12:59:28 [Andrea]
Luca: no I see your point. You are saying that it is hard to integrate OSS into commercial products.
12:59:53 [Andrea]
Rotan: the absence of an interface, then we could integrate OSS into a commercial product more easily
13:00:03 [Andrea]
Luca: I can live with that
13:00:05 [Andrea]
13:00:14 [Andrea]
ack sboyera
13:01:03 [Andrea]
Stephane: in my view in your picture of the DDR environment you're missing the "core repository" that should be open and freely available
13:01:35 [Andrea]
Rotan: it's missing because I meant to say that the core repository can be any of the ones listed
13:01:45 [Andrea]
... I was tempted to put W3C, but then did not
13:01:53 [Andrea]
ack daves
13:01:59 [Luca_Passani]
q+ jose
13:02:26 [Andrea]
DaveS: I think WURFL kinda falls into the proprietary source
13:02:39 [Andrea]
... what do you think is needed to make the environment work?
13:03:15 [Andrea]
Rotan: the gray arrows represente the queries. And generally you'll have a cache. And the red arrows represent the communication between the single DDR intances
13:03:37 [Andrea]
... there should also be some administration system to add information to some node and get the information spread
13:03:51 [Andrea]
DaveS: this is a DD community.
13:03:56 [Luca_Passani]
13:04:07 [Andrea]
... what about other entities?
13:05:01 [Andrea]
Rotan: there are still some management issues that need to be addressed
13:05:13 [Andrea]
... I don't see a single node as THE repository
13:05:39 [Andrea]
Bennett: what you are implying in this diagram, you mean that the DDR should also take care of the distributed system
13:05:55 [Andrea]
... this tends to be managed by big companies that ask for a lot of money for that
13:06:09 [Andrea]
... and then I wanted to comment about the usage of this data for marketing purposes
13:06:13 [Andrea]
ack bmarks
13:06:35 [Andrea]
... sometimes back, IBM, wanted to add capabilties about CSS in UAProf
13:06:59 [Andrea]
... but some device manufacturers were worried that competitors would make 1-to-1 comparisons
13:07:37 [Andrea]
... so marketing use can be a terrible disincentive
13:08:00 [Andrea]
... a lot of data that could have been very useful never got into UAProf for these reasons
13:08:15 [Andrea]
Rotan: I see your point
13:08:26 [Andrea]
... but anyone someone's going to do it anyway
13:08:42 [Andrea]
13:09:27 [Andrea]
Luca: thanks for your story, Bennett. I think this confirms that UAProf should not be left to manufacturers
13:10:31 [Andrea]
Bennett: what needs to be considered is that we should not build something that will give some power that he doesn't already has. If you build something that changes today's power, it will fail for political reasons
13:11:05 [Andrea]
... validation, verification and certification are three very important activities
13:11:44 [Andrea]
... WURFL is in a position in which you can do what you want, but when a standards body starts this kind of activity it will be taken into high consideration
13:11:58 [Andrea]
Eduard: who is leading this power balance, in your opinion?
13:12:09 [Andrea]
Bennet: I don't think I have a good answer to this question.
13:12:28 [Andrea]
... in OMA when these possible conditions arose, they were avoided.
13:12:37 [DKA]
13:12:40 [Andrea]
q+ dka
13:12:45 [Andrea]
q+ andrea
13:13:25 [asamim]
13:13:45 [Andrea]
... with DM there will be a significant power change.
13:13:55 [Andrea]
... and this is why it has never been really carried on
13:14:21 [Andrea]
... So I would like you to keep this in mind
13:14:25 [Andrea]
13:14:46 [Andrea]
dka: I am restating what Luca just said, but
13:14:59 [Andrea]
... we should be aware of the problems that you identified
13:15:14 [Andrea]
... if political issues are blocking innovation
13:15:32 [Andrea]
... WURFL has been a disruptive innovation
13:15:43 [Andrea]
... has been a disruptive innovation
13:15:51 [Andrea]
... even if this can be scary for Vodafone
13:16:08 [Andrea]
... we will see the market continue to innovate in pools and not all together
13:16:16 [Andrea]
... the group would like to create a cohesion
13:16:17 [Andrea]
13:16:23 [Andrea]
ack jose
13:16:37 [Andrea]
jose: do you support the idea of a single file, in your architecture?
13:16:54 [Andrea]
Rotan: any of the single nodes could be a single file, but what matters is that the interface is common
13:17:09 [Andrea]
s/interface/communication interface/
13:17:38 [Andrea]
ack dka
13:17:44 [Andrea]
q+ bernard
13:17:48 [Andrea]
ack luca
13:18:17 [Andrea]
Luca: I don't like your architecture because there are local caches and these represent another repository itself
13:18:30 [Andrea]
... in the aim of producing something useful for the community
13:18:40 [Andrea]
... we should focus on what you represented as a local cache
13:18:59 [Andrea]
Rotan: what I mean there is to cache the value of the screen size and not get on the network all the time to query the value
13:19:07 [Andrea]
... it's a technical solution
13:19:14 [Andrea]
Luca: even if it's simple, what is it?
13:19:46 [steph]
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13:20:28 [Andrea]
Rotan: it's just a local cache of the query and their results
13:20:43 [Andrea]
... it's only a performance mechanism
13:21:02 [Andrea]
Luca: is your aim to be able to replace WURFL with MobileAware without a problem?
13:21:07 [Andrea]
Rotan: that's our plan
13:21:43 [Andrea]
Luca: how do the two repositories communicate? they have different vocabularies
13:21:57 [Andrea]
Rotan: that's the semantics problem. We will work on it in step 2
13:22:04 [Andrea]
13:22:20 [Andrea]
q+ bmarks to say something
13:22:45 [steph]
13:23:12 [Luca_Passani]
13:23:17 [Andrea]
q+ steph
13:23:34 [Andrea]
Andrea: doesn't this activity show you (the manufacturers) that you should be more cooperative
13:24:10 [Andrea]
Bennett: we are now being able to quantify the value of UAProf
13:24:18 [steph]
ack andrea
13:24:18 [Andrea]
... but it is not so easy
13:24:28 [Andrea]
... and probably many others don't see that value
13:24:37 [Andrea]
Rotan: manufacturers don't want to release information too early
13:25:06 [jcantera]
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13:25:13 [Andrea]
... this makes it for us to be able to put the device description in our repository in time for the release
13:25:32 [Andrea]
s/makes it/makes it hard/
13:26:19 [Andrea]
Bennett: device information is not going to be released until the public release of the device itself
13:26:45 [Andrea]
Luca: but this goes back to my point of an external entity that will certify
13:27:00 [Andrea]
Bennett: they would not get the device early, anyway
13:27:33 [Andrea]
... honestly I don't think that this time problem is as big as the rest of the problems you identified here
13:28:22 [Andrea]
Rotan: in my picture you can see there is a published specification box and that could be the manufacturer and with this architucture the data would be delivered faster
13:28:53 [Andrea]
13:29:59 [Andrea]
Bennett: certainly working with manufacturers will shorten these delays and the manufacturer knows everythin about the device, of course
13:30:31 [Andrea]
Stephane: this group could suggest a set of tests
13:30:46 [Andrea]
Rotan: as soon as we will have a set of properties, we can work on the tests
13:31:33 [Andrea]
13:31:42 [Andrea]
ack bern
13:31:53 [Andrea]
Bertrand: I wanted to support Bennett's point
13:32:03 [Andrea]
... the distributed system might be too complex
13:33:17 [Andrea]
... we are running all kinds of tests, so of course manufacturers are the best ones to provide this kind of information
13:33:52 [Andrea]
13:34:06 [Andrea]
Rotan: wrt implementation we believe it could be done in phases
13:34:22 [rcasero]
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13:34:53 [Luca_Passani]
13:35:00 [Andrea]
... once we have an agreed interface we can talk about the architecture and environment in a step 2
13:36:05 [Andrea]
ack bm
13:36:05 [Zakim]
bmarks, you wanted to say something
13:36:31 [Andrea]
Bennett: I hear very very different views of what is going to happen
13:37:01 [Andrea]
.... Steph is talking about a few hundred capabilities for a few thousand devices. That is not so big
13:37:47 [Andrea]
... on the other hand, the image I hear from Rotan and others, they are talking about 500+ capabilities and multiple parameters and aspects for the same amount of devices
13:38:06 [Andrea]
... API would not change, but the internal architecture would be completely different
13:38:37 [Andrea]
... you NEED to decide what the internal architecture and scope is going to be now
13:38:54 [Andrea]
... if you look at UAProf and WURFl, you will see a lot of data that is out of the scope of mobile web
13:39:02 [Andrea]
... and those things will continue to be integrated
13:39:16 [Andrea]
... and this is the opposite of the problem I saw this morning
13:39:39 [Andrea]
... you are solving the problem you see nicely, but you don't solving the entire picture
13:39:45 [Andrea]
... is that good enough?
13:40:06 [Andrea]
Rotan: we would start with just a few properties for basic adaptation and then extend
13:40:31 [Andrea]
... we don't want to do 1 API for basic info and 1 for advanced. It would cost money, we would like to have 1 API that does basic AND specialized
13:40:45 [Andrea]
... there are small companies that would not have the resources
13:40:58 [Andrea]
Steph: there is a difference between the architecture and running a service
13:41:18 [Andrea]
... my feeling is that having the information available is different from running the web server to provide it
13:41:44 [Andrea]
... I am not completely sure that a picture as complex as Rotan's is needed
13:41:44 [Luca_Passani]
13:41:50 [Andrea]
ack steph
13:42:24 [mimasa]
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13:42:26 [Andrea]
Rotan: my picture could turn into reality in 10 years, but at least we can give something to the community soon, if we can provide a simple API
13:42:51 [Andrea]
... we would like to remove the human interaction for a few things and replace it with automatic tools
13:43:04 [mimasa]
13:43:12 [Andrea]
Steph: API and vocabulary should not be mixed
13:44:19 [Andrea]
Luca: in the future I see 5 basic capabilities with common names among different repositories and everyone extending their own way.
13:44:33 [Andrea]
... I just want to make sure we talk about something real and not too visionary
13:44:53 [Andrea]
13:44:56 [Andrea]
ack Luca
13:50:18 [Andrea]
Daves: Rotan, could you summarize the conclusions about device properties?
13:50:32 [Andrea]
Rotan: I would like to talk about it at the end of day 2, which is tomorrow
13:50:32 [mimasa]
13:51:17 [Andrea]
Rotan: briefly, last year, in Boston we summarized the results of the questionnaire about device capabilities
13:51:33 [mimasa]
Topic: Review of the DD Requirements
13:51:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
13:51:59 [Andrea]
... some companies were scared that revealing the capabilities considered most important could be a thread for them.
13:52:10 [Andrea]
... information was sent to Stephane privately and he released the results
13:52:50 [Andrea]
... about 20 or 30 properties were identified for a basic adaptation
13:53:13 [Andrea]
... that is the information that should be in the basic repository.
13:53:26 [Andrea]
... other entities will add information they like and need for mobile perfect
13:54:25 [Andrea]
Rotan: some of the properties are not part of UAProf
13:54:30 [Andrea]
... who is going to provide that information
13:56:08 [Andrea]
DaveS: OMA discussed the addition of more properties
13:56:14 [Andrea]
... and units, for example
13:56:59 [Andrea]
... what is expected from UAProf and OMA?
13:57:07 [Andrea]
... update the vocabulary?
13:57:20 [steph]
link to the properties survey result :
13:57:31 [Andrea]
Rotan: mapping what already exists to our list would be a first step, covering what already exists
13:57:37 [steph]
(w3c member only)
13:58:34 [Luca_Passani]
13:59:01 [Andrea]
DaveS: who is going to make the final decision about semantics and vocabulary? Is screen measured in pixel only?
13:59:11 [Andrea]
Bennett: I think UAProf is in the best position at this time
13:59:56 [Andrea]
... I am glad you had this discussion and captured
14:00:08 [Andrea]
... this is what is needed, but will UAProf have enough horsepower?
14:00:15 [Andrea]
DaveS: how about W3C?
14:00:38 [Andrea]
Bennett: what is here is already better of what was done for UAProf originally
14:01:25 [Andrea]
DaveS: then we should identify the vocabulary and then ask UAProf, WURFL, etc to comply
14:01:57 [Andrea]
Bennett: you probably need a public process and you need to have public hearing
14:02:15 [Andrea]
... in UAProf anyone can suggest new tags, even if most people don't know it
14:02:26 [Andrea]
... but then you need to have public hearing
14:02:31 [Andrea]
... put together a process and get it going
14:03:05 [Andrea]
DaveS: let's put together the process, and then the W3C will go to the OMA
14:03:21 [Andrea]
... how does WURFL relate to this process?
14:03:45 [Andrea]
Luca: that's what we came here for
14:04:30 [Andrea]
Rotan: in WURFL there's a name for a property. What we need to do is identify it and map it
14:05:00 [Andrea]
DaveS: it seems like there's a lot of concern about this. This should probably be a priority for the group
14:05:35 [Andrea]
Luca: WURFL was born as a tool. Later started to import UAProf and we think we will continue doing it
14:06:00 [Andrea]
Bennett: why bother, as long as UAProf is going to comply anyway?
14:06:41 [Andrea]
DaveS: we will identify some property names, WURFL should simply find a way to comply. Maybe change to those names
14:06:44 [Andrea]
Luca: that's possible
14:07:15 [Andrea]
Rotan: WURFL could actually make the communication interface compliant with DDR spec that does the mapping and leave the internal names as they are today
14:09:12 [Andrea]
Bennett: Bag is a pain
14:09:27 [Andrea]
Rotan: thanks for your experience, this is what we need
14:10:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
14:20:30 [mimasa]
(Rotan quickly goes through requirements)
14:22:48 [Andrea]
s/scribenick: Andrea/scribe: Andrea/
14:33:53 [Luca_Passani]
14:34:36 [Andrea]
Rotan: we don't have a charter for this group. Part of the activity of this workshop is to identify possible new items
14:35:21 [Andrea]
... we will need to define the vocabulary
14:35:32 [Andrea]
... and also identify how other internal things will be like
14:35:40 [Andrea]
... the API's
14:35:45 [Andrea]
... validation and trust
14:36:19 [Andrea]
... trying to design the perfect solution might take years and not produe anything in the near-term
14:36:49 [Andrea]
Luca: What I would be happy to hear tomorrow is identify those 5 capability names, talk about IDL and polish the requirements, of course
14:37:13 [Andrea]
... trust could be an integer for now and think about what to make with it later
14:37:47 [Andrea]
Bennett: as you look at other W3C activities such as DISelect and MediaQueries, how much overlap do you see?
14:38:07 [Andrea]
... and we are going back to the idea of where you inject the data. At what point of the process
14:38:20 [Andrea]
... would be good to see how these might overlap other works in W3C
14:38:30 [Andrea]
Rotan: DISelect and MediaQueries are currently the same
14:38:48 [Andrea]
Stephane: MediaQueries is for presentation and DIselect is for the layout
14:39:14 [Rotan2]
14:39:15 [Andrea]
Bennett: but this confirms my suspect is that there is overlap and the position in process chain is important
14:39:20 [Andrea]
ack Luca
14:39:24 [Rotan2]
ack luca
14:39:39 [Andrea]
Luca: I don't care about DISelect and MediaQueries. They seem too complicated
14:40:00 [Andrea]
Rotan: if someone builds an Xpath to query WURFL you're done
14:40:20 [Andrea]
Bennett: these could all be valid solutions to the same problem. W3C needs to rationalize
14:41:07 [Andrea]
... each of these technologies can seem to complicated to you, not so complicated to others. They all seem to cover the same topic and need to be rationalized
14:45:38 [Andrea]
(Rotan reviews the original charter deliverables and forecasted possible follow-ons)
14:48:19 [Andrea]
Luca: what do you mean by reference implementation?
14:48:37 [Andrea]
Rotan: I mean writing a piece of software that does what is described as the API's.
14:49:09 [Andrea]
... could be something that works with MediaQueries and DISelect
14:49:37 [Andrea]
... yesterday we talked for example about servlets and the fact that Tomcat is the reference implementation
14:50:00 [Andrea]
... this means that other implementations, to be compliant, will need to behave like Tomcat and not as you might interpret the specification
14:50:10 [Andrea]
14:50:21 [Andrea]
... in the beginning I think a prototype should be enough
14:50:48 [Andrea]
... people who's been lurking on the list, might start doing some real code
14:50:51 [ronan]
ronan has joined #ddwg
14:51:29 [Andrea]
Jose: we have some worries about other reference implementations that have been done based on W3C recommendations. We think that this was valid for browsers and should still apply
14:52:24 [Andrea]
... it could be an open-source project
14:52:37 [Andrea]
Rotan: I was talking about this last night with Stephane. I think it's a good idea
14:53:07 [Andrea]
Luca: WURFL could be a good candidate, it's a matter of resources
14:53:16 [Andrea]
Rotan: that's true for probably all of us
14:54:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
14:58:01 [Andrea]
Workshop ends. MWI gues presentation about MERFEO from Telefonica I+D
14:59:31 [Rotan2]
14:59:37 [Rotan2]
OK, that's it, I think. :)
15:00:03 [Rotan2]
15:03:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
15:13:37 [mimasa]
mimasa has joined #ddwg
15:14:42 [RRSAgent]
15:15:46 [mimasa]
s/gues /guest /
15:16:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
15:18:07 [asamim]
15:18:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
15:21:46 [mimasa]
s/Workshop ends/Workshop day 1 ends/
15:22:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
15:28:22 [asamim]
15:29:05 [asamim]
We'll start at 9AM tomorrow
15:29:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate asamim
15:29:38 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
15:29:38 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: bennett to review DD-landscape and send his comments [1]
15:29:38 [RRSAgent]
recorded in