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13:44:22 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n ITS working group
13:44:24 <fsasaki> chair: Yves
13:44:27 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
13:44:33 <fsasaki> scribeNick: fsasaki
13:46:49 <YvesS> YvesS has joined #i18nits
13:48:33 <fsasaki> Hi Yves
13:50:06 <fsasaki> Yves, could we have another topic today "comments from i18n core on the ITS draft"?
13:52:24 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0001.html
13:52:27 <YvesS> Hi Felix.
13:53:05 <fsasaki> Hi Yves
13:53:38 <YvesS> Sure. We can do that at the start of the general discussion about feedback. continuing on the discussion about the title of the BP for example.
13:53:47 <fsasaki> o.k., thanks
13:59:58 <Zakim> I18N_TS()10:00AM has now started
14:00:02 <Zakim> +Felix
14:01:18 <Zakim> + +1.303.516.aaaa
14:02:05 <YvesS> zakim, 1.303516.aaaa is Yves
14:02:05 <Zakim> sorry, YvesS, I do not recognize a party named '1.303516.aaaa'
14:02:13 <YvesS> zakim, +1.303516.aaaa is Yves
14:02:16 <Zakim> sorry, YvesS, I do not recognize a party named '+1.303516.aaaa'
14:02:37 <fsasaki> regrets: Sebastian
14:02:57 <Zakim> + +44.560.072.aabb
14:03:00 <YvesS> zakim, who is here?
14:03:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see Felix, Yves, +44.560.072.aabb
14:03:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see YvesS, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki, r12a
14:04:47 <fsasaki> topic: action items
14:05:05 <fsasaki> action: Christian to check whether the inheritance / default comment should be a last call comment. (PENDING)
14:05:15 <fsasaki> action: Felix to draft a proposal about defaults for all data categories. (PENDING)
14:05:21 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
14:05:22 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:05:22 <Zakim> +Richard
14:05:23 <AZ> AZ has joined #i18nits
14:05:43 <Zakim> -Richard
14:06:16 <fsasaki> action: Andrzej and everybody who has time to look at OpenDocument for creating a section in the modularization (ONGOING)
14:06:32 <fsasaki> Andrzej: The schema is in RELAX NG
14:06:38 <fsasaki> .. which I don't know 
14:06:57 <fsasaki> .. open office 1.0 was DTD-based
14:07:08 <fsasaki> Yves: will you have time to work on that?
14:07:10 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
14:07:10 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:07:12 <Zakim> +Richard
14:07:22 <fsasaki> Andrzej: it will take me two weeks time
14:07:33 <fsasaki> .. I will not be on the call next week
14:07:39 <fsasaki> s/ONGOING/PENDING/
14:07:48 <fsasaki> action: Diane to look if there is any Boeing XML document type where ITS could be tried out. (PENDING)
14:07:54 <r12a> zakim, mute ishida
14:07:54 <Zakim> sorry, r12a, I do not see a party named 'ishida'
14:07:59 <fsasaki> action: Felix to check how to create path description with DOM. (DONE)
14:08:07 <r12a> zakim, mute richard
14:08:07 <Zakim> Richard should now be muted
14:08:31 <fsasaki> Felix: I only send a mail to Yves
14:08:35 <fsasaki> Yves: send it also to the group
14:08:38 <fsasaki> Felix: will do
14:08:47 <r12a> yes
14:08:55 <r12a> zakim, unmute richard
14:08:55 <Zakim> Richard should no longer be muted
14:09:03 <r12a> zakim, mute richard
14:09:03 <Zakim> Richard should now be muted
14:09:15 <YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0115.html
14:09:25 <fsasaki> action: Sebastian and Yves to look at the namespace issue mentioned at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0115.html (DONE)
14:09:47 <fsasaki> Yves: it does not affect mine or Sebastians implementation
14:10:05 <fsasaki> Felix: o.k., I will make a work-around in my implementation
14:10:20 <fsasaki> action: Yves to get back to Kara for feedback. (ONGOING)
14:10:30 <fsasaki> Yves: tried to get feedback, no answer yet.
14:10:45 <fsasaki> .. Andrzej, could you follow up with Kara?
14:10:49 <fsasaki> Andrzej: will do
14:11:02 <fsasaki> action: Andrzej to follow up with Kara on the terminology topic
14:11:10 <fsasaki> action: Yves to get DocBook feedback from Norm (PENDING)
14:11:30 <fsasaki> action: Yves to look into http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3126. (DONE)
14:11:35 <YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0003.html
14:11:38 <fsasaki> Yves: Felix wrote a proposal
14:12:11 <fsasaki> .. one was to change the wording, saying "we access the text *and* what it is pointing to"
14:12:38 <fsasaki> .. another proposal was to allow for a trigger which allows for deciding what is selected
14:12:53 <fsasaki> .. my problem is that we might point to a contant which is not translatable
14:13:00 <fsasaki> .. but itself it is localizable
14:14:07 <fsasaki> .. e.g. if you point to the same element?
14:14:28 <fsasaki> Felix: you could have two rules, one with the trigger, one without
14:14:43 <fsasaki> Yves: we should keep the discussion ongoing
14:14:56 <fsasaki> .. to get feedback from e.g. Sebastian
14:15:59 <fsasaki> topic: feedback for the ITS draft from i18n core
14:17:08 <r12a> zakim, unmute richard
14:17:08 <Zakim> Richard should no longer be muted
14:17:27 <fsasaki> Felix: i18n core is preparing comments, hopefully until next Wednesday
14:17:40 <fsasaki> Yves: fine with me, good to have new comments
14:17:50 <fsasaki> Richard: What I prepared so far are mostly editorial comments
14:18:11 <fsasaki> .. more important parts are put together in the normal way i18n core prepares comments
14:19:04 <fsasaki> topic: best practices title
14:20:36 <r12a> Internationalization Best Practises: Internationalizing XML Formats and Content
14:20:36 <r12a> Internationalization Best Practises: Internationalizing XML Schemas and Content
14:20:39 <fsasaki> Yves summarizes the proposal describe in the agenda
14:21:23 <fsasaki> Yves: I like the first one, it is generic
14:21:41 <fsasaki> .. some people don't make the link between DTD and schema
14:21:58 <fsasaki> .. does anybody have a problem in changing the title?
14:22:07 <fsasaki> .. as long as we have XML, i18n and BP in the title
14:22:14 <fsasaki> .. I am fine with the change
14:22:22 <fsasaki> Andrzej: I like xml internationalization
14:22:34 <fsasaki> Yves: it is very short and comes to the point
14:22:43 <fsasaki> Richard: but it is also very vague
14:22:57 <fsasaki> .. we (GEO?) try to make the titles more specific
14:23:45 <Zakim> +Christian
14:23:46 <fsasaki> .. identifying the technology and the topic area is important
14:24:01 <fsasaki> Christian: sorry for being late
14:24:14 <fsasaki> Yves summarizes the discussion for Christian
14:24:18 <r12a> Internationalization Best Practises: Internationalizing XML Formats and Content
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14:25:05 <GoutamSaha> GoutamSaha has joined #i18nits
14:25:13 <fsasaki> Yves: I propose to write a mail about the change to the list
14:25:46 <fsasaki> action: Yves to write a mail about the title proposal for the BP document
14:25:50 <YvesS> http://www.w3.org/International/its/techniques/its-techniques.html
14:25:54 <fsasaki> topic: change for the BP format
14:26:34 <fsasaki> Richard: one of the GEO BP documents has been finalized recently
14:26:42 <fsasaki> .. the way it looked
14:26:55 <fsasaki> .. Felix wanted me to get back to you what you think about them
14:27:09 <fsasaki> .. one change: we have a resources section at the end of every BP
14:27:56 <fsasaki> .. as you publish a BP document, the list gets out of date
14:28:07 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/technique-index#html
14:28:22 <fsasaki> Richard: the techniques index tells you how to do things
14:29:00 <fsasaki> .. the idea is to keep that up to date on a regular basis
14:29:37 <fsasaki> .. see e.g. the links to various RFCs for language identifiers
14:30:07 <fsasaki> Richard: so in summary: the proposal is to have a link to the techniques index in the ITS BP document
14:30:17 <fsasaki> .. the other change also has to do with resources
14:30:18 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20040429.094220724
14:30:38 <fsasaki> Richard: here you see a BP described
14:31:46 <fsasaki> Richard describes the structure of the BP document
14:32:07 <fsasaki> Richard: the question: we good do it in a GEO specific XSLT stylesheet
14:32:16 <fsasaki> .. or we could integrate it in the main XSLT stylesheet
14:32:33 <fsasaki> Yves: I don't see any problem with the changes
14:35:04 <Zakim> -Andrzej
14:35:30 <fsasaki> .. it is good to have this in one place
14:35:41 <AZ> Phone line wne dead - dialing again
14:35:45 <fsasaki> Felix: only one concern: Who would update the resource index?
14:36:11 <fsasaki> .. the index would not be in the hand of just the ITS group
14:36:32 <fsasaki> Yves: who would update the index?
14:36:39 <fsasaki> Richard: ITS would provide only the initial index
14:36:56 <fsasaki> .. in the BP document, with the link to the index on the i18n HP
14:36:58 <Zakim> +Andrzej
14:37:11 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-lang.html#ri20040429.094220724
14:37:57 <fsasaki> Richard: the link at the bottom of the page "additional resources" links to the index on the i18n HP
14:38:24 <fsasaki> .. the techniques index has not the same structure as the documents
14:38:46 <fsasaki> Yves: I don't see a large impact
14:39:36 <fsasaki> Felix: just be aware that the structure of the index is then not in the hand of ITS
14:39:50 <fsasaki> .. I like the index, only wanted to make you aware of it
14:40:09 <fsasaki> Yves: thanks for bringing up the topic, index, I don't see a problem
14:40:16 <fsasaki> .. Richard, go on, implement the changes
14:40:22 <fsasaki> Richard: thanks, will do
14:40:34 <fsasaki> .. there are some other things like various suptypes of sections
14:41:02 <fsasaki> Yves: most of the issues we will have with the BP doc will be finding some resources
14:41:15 <fsasaki> .. sometimes it is not easy to decompose the document in sections
14:41:27 <fsasaki> Richard: please come to GEO, we try what we can
14:41:44 <fsasaki> .. another question: if I want to change things, should I come to the ITS meetings
14:41:54 <fsasaki> .. or just talk to you, Yves?
14:42:16 <fsasaki> Yves: maybe first come to me, and we see if we should bother the group
14:42:28 <fsasaki> Felix: Please don't forget Diane :)
14:42:31 <fsasaki> Yves: o.k.
14:42:37 <fsasaki> topic: feedback on bugs
14:43:28 <r12a> Richard: I'd be happy for ITS folks to help with the index
14:43:44 <YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0002.html
14:44:06 <fsasaki> Felix proposal for resolutions for bugs
14:44:36 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0004.html
14:45:44 <fsasaki> Felix: how about looking at the proposals, giving feedback until next weeks call
14:45:51 <fsasaki> Yves: o.k. with me
14:46:05 <fsasaki> .. so if you have an issue with the answers, please start a thread
14:46:17 <fsasaki> .. we can then send the answers after next weeks meeting
14:46:41 <fsasaki> action: everybody to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0002.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JulSep/0004.html , to be sent after next weeks meeting
14:46:47 <fsasaki> topic: implementations
14:47:00 <fsasaki> Yves: I made some changes
14:47:07 <fsasaki> .. I think I get the same output as you do
14:47:22 <fsasaki> .. there are some issues: do we need to output the ITS elements themselves?
14:47:54 <fsasaki> .. currently, in the draft we don't say what we do for ITS content
14:48:07 <fsasaki> Richard: I have written a comment which is related to that
14:48:22 <fsasaki> .. e.g. you point to the locInfo information in the document
14:48:34 <fsasaki> .. it is not clear if that should be translated or not
14:49:05 <fsasaki> Yves: I was thinking that any ITS content should not be localizable
14:49:15 <fsasaki> Richard: that might be too much restriction
14:49:36 <fsasaki> .. I suggested if you have e.g. locInfoPointer
14:53:21 <YvesS> http://www.w3.org/TR/its/EX-locInfo-element-1.xml
14:54:49 <fsasaki> Felix proposes to have the rule "data category processing should exclude markup from that data category"
14:56:22 <fsasaki> Yves: the implementations we have today don't process ITS markup
14:56:32 <r12a> <Res>
14:56:32 <r12a>  <prolog>
14:56:32 <r12a>   <its:rules its:version="1.0">
14:56:32 <r12a>    <its:locInfoRule
14:56:32 <r12a>      locInfoType="description"
14:56:33 <r12a>      selector="//msg/data"
14:56:35 <r12a>      locInfoPointer="../notes"/>
14:56:37 <r12a>   </its:rules>
14:56:39 <r12a>  </prolog>
14:56:41 <r12a>  <body>
14:56:43 <r12a>   <msg id="FileNotFound">
14:56:45 <r12a>    <notes>Indicates that the resource file {0} could not be loaded.</notes>
14:56:47 <r12a>    <data>Cannot find the file {0}.</data>
14:56:49 <r12a>   </msg>
14:56:51 <r12a>   <msg id="DivByZero">
14:56:53 <r12a>    <notes>A division by 0 was going to be computed.</notes>
14:56:55 <r12a>    <data>Invalid parameter.</data>
14:56:56 <fsasaki> Richard explains the example
14:56:57 <r12a>   </msg>
14:56:59 <r12a>  </body>
14:57:01 <r12a> </Res>
14:58:10 <fsasaki> Yves: two actions: we have to think of that example
14:59:02 <fsasaki> .. and we have to discuss how the ITS markup works
14:59:30 <fsasaki> .. currently, I don't make any distinction how ITS markup is handled in my implementations
14:59:47 <fsasaki> action: Yves to fix the example Richard gave in the minutes
15:00:01 <fsasaki> topic: other business
15:00:10 <fsasaki> Christian: What is our current status?
15:00:44 <fsasaki> Felix: LC is finished, but we agreed to allow i18n core for comments
15:01:39 <fsasaki> Christian: my action item (01) is done, no LC comment will come
15:01:52 <fsasaki> Christian: I have a question on locInfoPointer
15:02:26 <fsasaki> Yves agrees with the explanation of the semantics of locInfoPointer
15:02:33 <AZ> I have to go
15:02:42 <GoutamSaha> Good Night Felix, Yves and All
15:02:56 <fsasaki> Richard: a question on locInfoRef pointer
15:03:09 <fsasaki> .. that must point to s.t. in the body of the text
15:03:13 <AZ> I have to go
15:03:21 <Zakim> -Andrzej
15:06:41 <Zakim> -Christian
15:09:15 <fsasaki> Richard: the formal definition of locInfoRefPointer just says "string", not URI
15:09:24 <fsasaki> topic: next call
15:09:52 <Zakim> -Richard
15:09:57 <Zakim> -Felix
15:10:05 <Zakim> -Yves
15:10:06 <Zakim> I18N_TS()10:00AM has ended
15:10:07 <Zakim> Attendees were Felix, Yves, Andrzej, Richard, Christian
15:10:12 <fsasaki> Yves: please comment on the spec until next meeting
15:10:30 <fsasaki> Felix: Regrets from me. I will send out the comments, looking at your minutes.
15:11:49 <fsasaki> present: Christian, Felix, Goutam, Richard, Yves
15:11:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/05-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
15:12:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/05-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
15:20:50 <r12a> r12a has left #i18nits