14:54:51 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 14:54:51 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/06/22-xproc-irc 14:55:02 Meeting: XML Processing model telcon 14:55:23 Chair: Henry S Thompson 14:55:39 Scribe: Henry S Thompson 14:55:53 ScribeNick: ht 14:57:32 Topic: Attendance 14:58:52 Alessandro has joined #xproc 14:59:02 Alessandro has left #xproc 15:00:02 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 15:00:15 Alessandro has joined #xproc 15:00:35 +Alex_Milowski 15:00:57 rlopes has joined #xproc 15:01:04 zakim, please call ht781 15:01:06 I am sorry, ht; I do not know a number for ht781 15:01:10 zakim, please call ht-781 15:01:10 ok, ht; the call is being made 15:01:12 +Ht 15:01:27 +Murray_Maloney 15:01:28 +[IPcaller] 15:01:29 Zakim, [IP is Alessandro 15:01:29 +Alessandro; got it 15:02:26 richard has joined #xproc 15:02:57 +??P30 15:02:59 zakim, ? is richard 15:02:59 +richard; got it 15:03:58 zakim, who is on the call? 15:03:58 On the phone I see MoZ, Alex_Milowski, Ht, Murray_Maloney, Alessandro, richard 15:04:42 xproc 15:05:02 97762 15:05:07 yes, but the bridge is stating "invalid pass" 15:05:21 Zakim, what is the code ? 15:05:21 the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), MoZ 15:05:22 do the # thing to get amy then, don't waste time. . . 15:05:32 ok 15:06:46 zakim, who is on the call? 15:06:46 On the phone I see MoZ, Alex_Milowski, Ht, Murray_Maloney, Alessandro, richard 15:06:57 +[IPcaller] 15:07:13 zakim, +[ is rlopes 15:07:13 sorry, ht, I do not recognize a party named '+[' 15:07:17 Zakim, [IP is Rui 15:07:17 +Rui; got it 15:08:00 zakim, who is on the call? 15:08:00 On the phone I see MoZ, Alex_Milowski, Ht, Murray_Maloney, Alessandro, richard, Rui 15:08:16 Topic: Agenda 15:08:55 Accepted 15:09:07 Topic: Minutes of 2006-06-15 15:09:17 No comment, silence gives consent, accepted. 15:09:32 Topic: Call next week 15:09:50 MM regrets for 29 June and 6 July 15:10:09 RT regrets for 6 and 13 July 15:10:25 Topic: F2F 2--4 August 15:10:59 Accommodation is going fast, if you're not booked, do so ASAP! 15:11:35 MM: Rocklin Inn is closest to the meeting venue at MM's 15:11:47 ... Estimating 9 participants 15:12:21 Topic: Review of open action items 15:12:38 No progress on any of the open items 15:13:24 Topic: Syntax of the pipeline language 15:13:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006May/0087.html 15:14:30 HST: Three levels for names: 15:14:42 1) The pipeline itself ; 15:14:54 2) Components may declare required parameters 15:15:09 3) Authors may need variables to park things in 15:15:39 AM's email directly addresses (3) 15:16:08 HST: Does AM's proposal also address (2)? 15:16:53 RT: 4th category has been discussed -- XSLT parameters -- not required by component or pipeline, but used in a particular stylesheet, for example 15:17:09 q+ 15:17:32 HST: Yes, that's a separate use case, and AM's mechanism addresses it 15:18:17 MM: Late binding on the table? E.g. bind 'foo' to date, at pipeline invocation or only as referenced 15:18:59 AM: Been discussed. . .dynamic binding at a particular point, but not re-evaluated thereafter 15:19:36 ... but lazy values not as such 15:20:06 for me only functions can give different results 15:20:07 RT: User needs to do that explicitly, with e.g. a small component which produces the current date/time in an small XML document 15:20:45 date() for date and current() for current node for example 15:20:47 AM: I think we agreed no iteration of a 'while (condition) ...' variety for v1, so, no 15:20:59 ack alex 15:21:38 AM: My email, and HST's simple pipeline -- let+params+vars makes simple progress from that 15:22:01 RT: While working on conditional for my simple syntax proposal, same problems come up 15:22:22 q+ to put two kinds of 'values' on the table 15:23:03 AM: This topic actually involves the larger question of flow vs. sequence semantics. . . 15:23:25 ... If there's a primary input, my proposal works as written 15:23:59 ... If that can't be assumed, then things get more complicated 15:24:02 ack ht 15:24:02 ht, you wanted to put two kinds of 'values' on the table 15:24:56 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Jun/0029.html 15:27:40 HST: Two kinds of named values: constants, or simple values pulled via XPath from documents on the one hand, and (sequences of) infosets on the other 15:28:08 ... Should these both use the same kind of binding mechanism? They don't in the sum of the proposals on the table at the moment 15:28:41 RT: The first thing to note about this example, somewhat irritatingly, is that the conditional itself has to declare a name for its output 15:29:57 ... Assumes as have others that default context for XPaths is the primary input 15:30:58 ... A bit verbose as it stands, but if we allow the default rule that w/o an explicit input, you get the primary output of the previous step, etc. 15:31:47 ... So here we have a name being 'bound' by the conditional -- e.g. the 'result' of the conditional 15:33:00 ... So last week we observed that we have components defining names, and steps binding those names 15:33:22 ... But pipelines themselves do both 15:33:44 ... Conditional is similar -- it both names the output _and_ binds something to it in each branch 15:34:29 ... Perhaps we should separate out the idea of scopes within which names exist, and binding of values to names 15:34:57 AM: Several issues -- two-part names, or full hierarchical 15:36:28 ... We could go all the way to a path-like name which lets you address any step by navigating to it, or we could just use the ordinary ID/IDREF story 15:36:56 ... What I don't like is having to use paths for names depending on what the pipeline looks like 15:36:57 q+ 15:37:14 MSM has joined #xproc 15:37:39 RT: Well, I didn't want to have to make up names for every output of every step 15:39:49 HST, RT: Steps are instances of components 15:40:15 ... The XSLT _component_ has a 'member' called 'stylesheet' 15:40:57 ... So every XSLT _step_ gives us a name [step-name].stylesheet, for the stylesheet for the named step 15:41:29 HST: It's always only a two-part name, never a richer path. . . 15:43:04 AM: I think of steps using components, which doesn't seem to be consistent with what you have above, but that's actually a distraction at this point 15:43:13 ... I also don't like the '.' separator 15:44:06 ... Worried that once we start including pipelines inside pipelines, etc., we'll need a general reference mechanism 15:45:06 RT: Don't think we should allow that -- if you want to get at an input or output of a sub-pipe, the sub-pipe itself has to expose that at the sub-pipe surface 15:46:02 AM: You're missing the lesson from XML Schema -- you need to be able to refer to every part of the complex structure, for example for debugging, documenting, labelling intermediate results, etc. 15:46:56 RT: I see what you're saying, so yes, the naming approach I've proposed could generalize to pipe.step.port, etc. 15:47:18 ... There's some potential for confusion between step names and port names, in that case . . . 15:47:41 AM: I also want names for inputs, even if the pipeline _language_ doesn't need them 15:48:01 RT: Yes, again, can do, as long as we're careful wrt namespaces 15:48:27 AM: So we need to step back and generalize -- carefully consider what we want to be able to name, in general 15:48:39 ... and build it in from the beginning 15:49:24 RT: Indeed, and that's an argument for scoped names, and against ID/IDREF, otherwise composition might produce conflict 15:49:57 MM: Multiple dots? 15:50:21 RT: Only one in the language itself, but multiple for addressing 'from outside' as it were 15:50:53 MM: Public vs. private? You're proposing inputs and outputs are public, what about variable? 15:51:11 RT: In the language, as I'm proposing, only outputs are 'public' in that sense 15:52:07 AM: I agree with MM, referring to vars and params still need ways to point to them, so you can ask about them 15:54:02 MM: [book example which the scribe didn't catch -- please put in email!] 15:54:28 RT: You seem to be adding dependency on values, as well as documents 15:54:39 q+ to say blackboard 15:55:24 q+ 15:56:03 MM: ... I'm going to record something in a set of variables, each with a different, but related, name, one per chapter 15:58:00 ack ht 15:58:00 ht, you wanted to say blackboard 15:58:04 ack alex 15:58:56 MM has responded to RT's component example by email, please have a look 15:58:59 -Murray_Maloney 15:59:02 -Alessandro 15:59:04 -richard 15:59:06 -Rui 15:59:07 alexmilowski has left #xproc 15:59:08 -MoZ 15:59:10 -Alex_Milowski 15:59:10 rlopes has left #xproc 16:00:24 rrsagent, make logs world-visible 16:00:35 rrsagent, produce minutes 16:00:35 I'm logging. I don't understand 'produce minutes', ht. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:02:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/06/22-xproc-minutes.html ht 16:05:00 disconnecting the lone participant, Ht, in XML_PMWG()11:00AM 16:05:03 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended 16:05:04 Attendees were MoZ, Alex_Milowski, Ht, Murray_Maloney, [IPcaller], Alessandro, richard, Rui 16:08:22 MoZ, only one 'm' in Mohamed ? 16:08:26 for your name? 16:08:37 or is the w3c database wrong? 17:59:53 Zakim has left #xproc