IRC log of dawg on 2006-06-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:18:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
13:18:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/06/06-dawg-irc
13:18:21 [kendallclark]
zakim, what conferences?
13:18:21 [Zakim]
I see no active conferences
13:18:22 [Zakim]
scheduled at this time is VB_VBPAG()9:00AM
13:18:39 [kendallclark]
zakim, this will be DAWG
13:18:39 [Zakim]
ok, kendallclark; I see SW_DAWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
13:21:38 [kendallclark]
agenda+ convene, take role, approve last meeting's minutes
13:21:40 [LeeF]
LeeF has joined #dawg
13:21:45 [kendallclark]
agenda+ track action items
13:22:05 [kendallclark]
agenda+ Semantics and complexity of SPARQL
13:22:07 [LeeF]
dangnabbit
13:22:15 [kendallclark]
agenda+ Namespace of builtin functions?
13:22:15 [LeeF]
tricksy spacebar
13:22:34 [kendallclark]
agenda+ Patel-Schneider's LC comments
13:22:55 [kendallclark]
agenda+ Next meeting when?
13:29:34 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has now started
13:29:41 [Zakim]
+??P0
13:29:43 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P0 is me
13:29:43 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
13:30:10 [Zakim]
+Kendall_Clark
13:30:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.372.aaaa
13:31:00 [Zakim]
+Elias_Torres
13:31:42 [Zakim]
+ericP
13:34:04 [patH]
patH has joined #dawg
13:34:42 [Zakim]
+PatH
13:34:46 [kendallclark]
zakim, who's on the phone?
13:34:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, Kendall_Clark, +1.650.372.aaaa, Elias_Torres, ericP, PatH
13:34:55 [kendallclark]
aaaa is FredZ
13:34:59 [kendallclark]
zakim, aaaa is FredZ
13:34:59 [Zakim]
+FredZ; got it
13:35:13 [ericP]
regrets: libby
13:35:37 [kendallclark]
Scribe: ericP
13:35:47 [ericP]
scribe: Elias
13:35:48 [kendallclark]
scribe: EliasT
13:36:38 [ericP]
chair: KendallC
13:36:38 [Zakim]
-Elias_Torres
13:36:49 [LeeF]
Zakim, what's the phone number?
13:36:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, LeeF.
13:36:55 [LeeF]
zakim, call info?
13:36:55 [Zakim]
I am sorry, LeeF; I do not know a number for info?
13:36:55 [kendallclark]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006AprJun/0102.html
13:37:04 [AndyS]
+1 617 761 6200
13:37:12 [Fred]
Fred has joined #dawg
13:37:13 [AndyS]
then 7333#
13:37:17 [kendallclark]
code: 7333#
13:37:29 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
13:37:41 [LeeF]
zakim, IBMCambridge is me
13:37:41 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
13:39:09 [AndyS]
CR exit process? Has anything moved on since the CR request?
13:40:20 [kendallclark]
zakim, pick a scribe?
13:40:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, kendallclark.
13:40:22 [kendallclark]
zakim, pick a scribe
13:40:22 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose FredZ
13:40:36 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
13:40:44 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #dawg
13:41:15 [ericP]
next meeting: same bat time, same bat channel scribe: FredZ
13:41:16 [EliasT]
Scribe: EliasT
13:41:21 [EliasT]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
13:41:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, Kendall_Clark, FredZ, ericP, PatH, LeeF, [IBMCambridge]
13:41:26 [EliasT]
Zakim, IBMCambridge is me
13:41:26 [Zakim]
+EliasT; got it
13:41:44 [AndyS]
The other bot is RRSAgent which tracks actions and makes the log
13:41:53 [EliasT]
Meeting: DAWG Weekly Meeting
13:42:01 [EliasT]
Chair: kendallclark
13:42:34 [ericP]
KendallC: [introducing the FredZ to scribing technique] record any decisions
13:42:55 [ericP]
... best effort to record what people say
13:43:14 [EliasT]
FredZ, http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
13:43:30 [EliasT]
FredZ, http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
13:43:41 [ericP]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006AprJun/0102 last working meeting
13:44:02 [ericP]
RESOLVED: accept last working group meeting record as a true record
13:45:25 [kendallclark]
zakim, next agendum
13:45:25 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "convene, take role, approve last meeting's minutes" taken up [from kendallclark]
13:45:33 [kendallclark]
zakim, take up 2
13:45:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up 2', kendallclark
13:45:41 [kendallclark]
zakim, next agendum
13:45:41 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, kendallclark
13:45:50 [kendallclark]
zakim, close agendum 1
13:45:50 [Zakim]
agendum 1, convene, take role, approve last meeting's minutes, closed
13:45:51 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:45:52 [Zakim]
2. track action items [from kendallclark]
13:46:33 [AndyS]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-RDFterm-equal
13:46:42 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#OperatorMapping Operator Mapping
13:48:57 [EliasT]
kendallclark: ericP did you propose text and tests to add boolean {boolean <> = !=} to SPARQL?
13:49:08 [EliasT]
ericP: I only sent email, have not checked in text to CVS
13:49:30 [EliasT]
AndyS: do tests exist?
13:49:43 [EliasT]
ericP: I wasn't paying too much attention.
13:51:37 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/mid/20060530062645.GS28271@w3.org aforementioned tests
13:53:13 [LeeF]
FILTER ?a = ?b = ?c .
13:53:19 [LeeF]
AndyS gets a parsing error
13:54:06 [LeeF]
so does ericP
13:54:11 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARQL?lang=perl&text=ASK+%7B+%3Ax+%3Ay+%3Az+FILTER+%28+%3Fa+%3D+%3Fb+%3D+%3Fc+%29+%7D&action=validate+text
13:55:21 [kendallclark]
*ah*
13:55:39 [EliasT]
ericP: FredZ proposes a syntax that would be ambigous. AndyS and ericP get parser errors.
13:55:45 [kendallclark]
Steve: sure, we just got started, really
13:55:53 [AndyS]
http://sparql.org/validator?query=SELECT+*%0D%0AWHERE%0D%0A+++%7B+FILTER+%28+%3Fa+%3D+%28%3Fb+%3D+%3Fc%29+%29+%7D&linenumbers=true
13:56:47 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARQL?lang=perl&text=ASK+%7B+%3Ax+%3Ay+%3Az+FILTER+%28+%3Fa+%3D+%28+%3Fb+%3D+%3Fc+%29+%29+%7D&action=validate+text
13:57:58 [Zakim]
+??P7
13:57:59 [EliasT]
Zakim, agenda
13:57:59 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', EliasT
13:58:05 [LeeF]
zakim, agenda?
13:58:05 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
13:58:06 [Zakim]
2. track action items [from kendallclark]
13:58:06 [SteveH]
Zakim, +??P7 is SteveH
13:58:07 [Zakim]
3. Semantics and complexity of SPARQL [from kendallclark]
13:58:08 [Zakim]
4. Namespace of builtin functions? [from kendallclark]
13:58:09 [Zakim]
5. Patel-Schneider's LC comments [from kendallclark]
13:58:10 [Zakim]
6. Next meeting when? [from kendallclark]
13:58:11 [Zakim]
sorry, SteveH, I do not recognize a party named '+??P7'
13:58:16 [SteveH]
Zakim, ??P7 is SteveH
13:58:16 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
13:58:21 [EliasT]
ACTION: LeeF to fix mimetype in json-reults [CONTINUES]
13:58:47 [EliasT]
ACTION: EricP to propose text and tests to add {boolean < >
13:58:47 [EliasT]
= !=
13:58:47 [EliasT]
boolean} to SPARQL [CONTINUES]
13:59:42 [LeeF]
looking now
14:00:14 [LeeF]
There's an incorrect reference to text/json in the document. that's my action.
14:00:21 [LeeF]
the mime type that we use is orthogonal to my action.
14:02:01 [EliasT]
ACTION: EliasT to submit mime-type registration for json-results.
14:03:29 [EliasT]
ACTION: AndyS: to draft of open-world = tests (unknown datatypes) [CONTINUES]
14:03:59 [LeeF]
ACTION -4
14:04:00 [ericP]
DONE
14:04:12 [LeeF]
ACTION: AndyS: to draft of open-world = tests (unknown datatypes) [DONE]
14:04:53 [AndyS]
A != B on RDF-terms is currently not(RDF-term-equals) which is not open world
14:05:57 [ericP]
1 != "1"^^foo:int
14:06:29 [EliasT]
AndyS: in an open-world is unknown.
14:07:03 [EliasT]
ericP: would like it to result in a error.
14:07:29 [ericP]
error is the tightest way to describe the result
14:07:31 [AndyS]
Currently :: not( 1 = "1"^^foo:int) => true
14:07:42 [kendallclark]
+1
14:08:34 [EliasT]
patH: if we give a specific error in the case, bots could use that to perform private world calculations.
14:08:49 [AndyS]
FILTER(?x=?y)
14:08:51 [kendallclark]
zakim, mute me
14:08:51 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:09:19 [SteveH]
FILTER(termEqual(?zx, ?Y))
14:09:32 [ericP]
FILTER(?x=?y || ?x SAMETERM ?y)
14:09:52 [ericP]
FILTER(?x=?y || ?x !SAMETERM ?y)
14:12:06 [kendallclark]
zakim, unmute me
14:12:06 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:15:13 [AndyS]
Issue: Things like FILTER (?x = <x>) currently work.
14:15:29 [AndyS]
which is intuitive.
14:15:34 [SteveH]
+1
14:16:47 [kendallclark]
zakim, next agendum
14:16:47 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "track action items" taken up [from kendallclark]
14:16:50 [EliasT]
ACTION: AndyS to resend a proposal to solve equality testing over email, ericP and patH to give eyes.
14:16:57 [kendallclark]
zakim, close 2
14:16:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close 2', kendallclark
14:17:01 [kendallclark]
zakim, close agendum 2
14:17:01 [Zakim]
agendum 2, track action items, closed
14:17:02 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:17:03 [Zakim]
3. Semantics and complexity of SPARQL [from kendallclark]
14:18:56 [kendallclark]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Jun/0008.html
14:19:03 [EliasT]
ACTION: AndyS to contribute a couple tests for computed-properties/virtual-prop/builtin. one using lists, and one not using lists [DONE]
14:19:10 [EliasT]
AndyS, was that right?
14:20:17 [SteveH]
UNION is not compositional, having variables that appear only in UNION blocks is legal
14:21:05 [AndyS]
More concrete example would be good - they showed it was compositionaly under the restrictions they assume.
14:22:25 [kendallclark]
message seems full of concrete examples of their main claims...
14:22:58 [kendallclark]
cool :)
14:23:48 [SteveH]
+1 to most conservative
14:25:02 [SteveH]
q+
14:25:14 [kendallclark]
q?
14:27:30 [EliasT]
Zakim, mute me
14:27:30 [Zakim]
EliasT should now be muted
14:28:00 [ericP]
ack SteveH
14:29:49 [AndyS]
SELECT * { pat OPT pat1 OPT pat2 }
14:30:11 [AndyS]
SELECT * { { pat OPT pat1 } OPT pat2 }
14:30:21 [ericP]
SELECT * { { pat OPT pat1 } . {} OPT pat2 }
14:31:11 [kendallclark]
we'll cover for you Elias :)
14:31:25 [kendallclark]
you slacker
14:31:28 [kendallclark]
-wink-
14:31:50 [ericP]
SELECT * { { pat OPT pat1 } { OPT pat2 } }
14:31:58 [ericP]
SELECT * { { pat OPT pat1 } { { } OPT pat2 } }
14:32:55 [AndyS]
(OPT (OPT pat pat1) pat2))
14:34:51 [AndyS]
http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2005/HPL-2005-170.html
14:48:26 [ericP]
2006-06-06T12:55:56Z <ericP> "Paradoxical SPARQL query?", "Mismatch with multiple OPTIONAL and grammar?"
14:49:07 [AndyS]
which is May 0009
14:49:41 [AndyS]
"FILTER evaluation problem" is Apr 0025
14:50:41 [Zakim]
-EliasT
14:51:26 [Zakim]
-LeeF
14:59:04 [AndyS]
OPT is binary - gives an interpretation of the query
14:59:29 [AndyS]
This goes back to an ealier dialog when they had a different design for optional
14:59:32 [kendallclark]
ACTION EricP: to send mail about 3-part interpretation of optionals
14:59:47 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #dawg
15:00:04 [kendallclark]
ACTION PatH: to kibbitz with EricP about 3-part interpretation of optionals
15:00:42 [kendallclark]
ACTION KendallC: to tell Martin Soto that we're considering his comments
15:01:01 [AndyS]
hence I believe its already been answered
15:03:22 [kendallclark]
ADJOURNED
15:03:35 [Zakim]
-Kendall_Clark
15:03:37 [Zakim]
-SteveH
15:03:43 [Zakim]
-FredZ
15:05:41 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please make logs world-readable
15:06:11 [EliasT]
rrsagent, please generate log
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please generate log', EliasT. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:06:24 [ericP]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:06:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/06/06-dawg-minutes.html ericP
15:08:22 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:08:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, ericP, PatH
15:13:58 [ericP]
( A OPT B) . (C OPT D)
15:14:19 [ericP]
vs. ((A OPT B) OPT D) . C
15:15:59 [AndyS]
(A OPT B OPT C)
15:16:11 [AndyS]
(OPT (OPT A B) C)
15:17:04 [ericP]
((A OPT B) OPT C)
15:17:14 [AndyS]
(A - B - C ) => (- (- A B) C)
15:18:51 [LeeF]
this is fun to watch without hearing the conversation. sort of hypnotizing.
15:19:06 [patH]
just wait until we get to D and E.
15:19:24 [ericP]
working backwords from ZZZ, we get ...
15:20:13 [patH]
binary makes it possible to write (A opt (B opt C)), I presume?
15:20:22 [patH]
That would be impossible with 'unary'
15:20:44 [patH]
Right.
15:20:47 [ericP]
{}
15:20:50 [AndyS]
Yes - because the brackets were added
15:21:01 [ericP]
{ OPT A }
15:21:29 [AndyS]
{} is true
15:21:34 [ericP]
[]
15:21:44 [AndyS]
{ OPT A } => { {} OPT A }
15:22:04 [ericP]
[[]]
15:22:12 [patH]
Yes, in logic (and)=true and (or) =false
15:22:57 [patH]
Gotta go.
15:23:01 [Zakim]
-PatH
15:23:17 [AndyS]
Thx PatH
15:23:36 [ericP]
http://unagi/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#OptionalMatchingDefn
15:23:47 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#OptionalMatchingDefn
15:24:23 [AndyS]
{ } OPTIONAL { pattern } => { { } OPTIONAL { pattern } }
15:25:43 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#GroupPatterns
15:26:34 [AndyS]
Add {} before 4.2
15:26:50 [AndyS]
and renumber / re-TOC rest of 4
15:31:31 [Zakim]
-ericP
15:31:48 [ericP]
odd
15:31:59 [AndyS]
Bye then :-)
15:32:11 [Zakim]
-AndyS
15:32:13 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
15:32:14 [Zakim]
Attendees were AndyS, Kendall_Clark, +1.650.372.aaaa, Elias_Torres, ericP, PatH, FredZ, LeeF, EliasT, SteveH
15:32:15 [ericP]
yeah, can't get back in
15:32:36 [AndyS]
Anyway - good point to get back to the agree plan - zakim is giving us a hint
15:32:43 [AndyS]
Maybe we ran over the slot time.
15:32:48 [ericP]
prolly
15:32:49 [LeeF]
you can get Zakim to allocate a room for you
15:33:04 [AndyS]
AndyS has left #dawg
15:33:29 [ericP]
afs, do you want to pick this up with voice? or continue in email...
15:37:00 [AndyS]
Prolly better to wait for your email and involve everyone in the discussion. Concrete examples (for the test suite as well?) will help other implementers
15:37:38 [AndyS]
(unless there is somethign you need for that email, of course)
17:14:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dawg
17:52:26 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #dawg