IRC log of ua on 2006-05-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:55:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:55:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/18-ua-irc
17:55:34 [jallan]
zakim, this will be WAI_U
17:55:34 [Zakim]
ok, jallan; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
17:57:44 [jallan]
Meeting: W3C User Agent Teleconference for 18 May 2006
17:59:05 [JR]
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17:59:15 [parente]
parente has joined #ua
17:59:15 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
17:59:17 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:59:53 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
17:59:55 [Zakim]
-[IBM]
17:59:56 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
18:00:48 [Zakim]
+Jan_Richards
18:01:04 [Al]
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18:01:41 [JR]
Scribe:JR
18:01:54 [JR]
Chair: Jim Allan
18:02:08 [JR]
Regrets: Dave P.
18:02:18 [Al]
Zakim, call AlGilman-home
18:02:18 [Zakim]
ok, Al; the call is being made
18:02:19 [Zakim]
+AlGilman
18:02:57 [JR]
Agenda+ Action item review
18:03:12 [jallan]
Jim and Cathy work on action item http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2006AprJun/0052.html
18:03:19 [JR]
agenda+ Begin crafting comments to WCAG 2.0
18:04:14 [JR]
Zakim, take up agendum 1
18:04:14 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action item review" taken up [from JR]
18:04:36 [JR]
Topic: First action item
18:04:58 [JR]
JA: reports on conversation with CL
18:05:40 [JR]
JA: "programmatically determined" seems to take author away from technology
18:07:09 [JR]
Al: two parts: 1-on prog det as author responsbility: think of 2 views of content - rendered content and part that can go to automated ua
18:08:24 [JR]
Al: Al interprets as convey in notation that has a formal semantics
18:08:58 [JR]
Al: Should follow specs and fill in fields.
18:09:33 [JR]
JA: Just doesn't seem like this would be understandable by others who read.
18:12:21 [JR]
Al: we should be paying attention to what comes over wire from author's automation to the user's automation
18:13:21 [JR]
Al: THey didn't want to say "in attribute"...to tech specific
18:13:50 [JR]
Al: But in the end this is too indirect for authors to understand.
18:14:53 [JR]
JA: CL and JA just think that this boils down to use well formed, semantic, etc. markup
18:17:19 [JR]
JA: So are you saying you think things in WCAG should change?
18:17:34 [JR]
Al: Yes we should write some language suggestions.
18:19:36 [JR]
Al: By not separating user experience from data from server...the only things left are what's in user experience.
18:20:45 [jallan]
JR: its multipart, its a complex concept
18:22:57 [JR]
JA: For example wcag 1.3.4...
18:23:39 [JR]
JA: When you drill down...techs are use <stong> etc. instead of span bold.
18:26:39 [jallan]
Al: wcag is at a different level
18:26:52 [jallan]
success criteria is standalone - normative
18:27:08 [jallan]
don't need techniques, understanding, etc.
18:27:20 [jallan]
to meet the success criteria
18:28:00 [JR]
Al: Success criteria are only thing normative - but techs really reqd in some cases to understand...
18:28:22 [jallan]
JR: in AU had to invent another layer.
18:28:32 [jallan]
technology specific benchmark document
18:29:05 [jallan]
tool maker must go through wcag and state what their tool does to meet wcag
18:29:37 [jallan]
then the Authoring tool conformance statement becomes binding on themselves
18:30:23 [jallan]
they must match their (autoring tools) interpretation of what wcag checkpoints/success criteria mean
18:30:41 [jallan]
Al: very much what EARL has done.
18:30:53 [JR]
Al: shadi separates test objective from what was specifically tested
18:31:30 [JR]
Shadi = EARL
18:32:25 [JR]
Al: Years ago we had mtg with fed stats people about accessible stats...
18:32:56 [JR]
they found JAWS inspect command - it would read of all headers if header attribute used...otherwise not.
18:33:28 [JR]
Al: So some prog deter. things do reach user experience.
18:35:27 [JR]
Al: New idea: Has to do with what the user agent calls configurability...
18:36:22 [JR]
there are 2 kinds of controls in addition to what comes in over wire - view adjustments (eg view size) and the other is navigation.
18:38:45 [JR]
Al: WCAG seems to have ignored this somewhat.
18:41:55 [JR]
Al: ex, they ask you to make structure and presentation seperable, then they ask for sufficient contrast...even when ua is a ble to correct if struct and pres are seprated
18:43:43 [JR]
Al: SUggest using HTML version of the mail-in form to draft text.
18:44:00 [parente]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/comments/onlineform.html
18:44:14 [parente]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/comments/guidelines.php
18:46:12 [jallan]
action: Jim to rewrite prog det items to conform to wcag model
18:46:16 [parente]
there's also http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/comments/form.html
18:47:22 [JR]
Topic: 3rd action from last week: JA to Identify instances where wcag requires something of the
18:47:22 [JR]
author that really should be done by the user agent.
18:47:24 [Zakim]
-AlGilman
18:47:44 [JR]
JA: Decided to drop this.
18:47:52 [Al]
Al has left #ua
18:50:32 [JR]
JA: Other thing that came up on CG call was issue from compound documents...
18:51:36 [JR]
JA: Essentially Al revised some comments by JA to compund docs group...
18:52:27 [JR]
JA: Issue was what if in my UA I set 18pt font, what would happen with an SVG inside in 100x100 container in an xhtml
18:52:54 [JR]
JA: Something needs to be done (scrolling) etc.
18:53:46 [JR]
JA: They said not our prob.,,its the xhtml object.
18:54:16 [JR]
JA: But the browser may not know what's inside object so ewhat's inside needs to porovide.
18:57:54 [Zakim]
-[IBM]
18:57:56 [Zakim]
-Jan_Richards
18:57:58 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:58:00 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended
18:58:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, [IBM], Jan_Richards, AlGilman
18:58:09 [JR]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:58:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/18-ua-minutes.html JR
18:58:28 [JR]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:58:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/18-ua-minutes.html JR
18:58:42 [JR]
RRSAgent, set logs public
20:06:18 [JR]
JR has joined #ua
20:06:31 [JR]
Zakim, bye
20:06:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
20:06:36 [JR]
RRSAgent, bye
20:06:36 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/18-ua-actions.rdf :
20:06:36 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jim to rewrite prog det items to conform to wcag model [1]
20:06:36 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/18-ua-irc#T18-46-12