IRC log of i18ncore on 2006-05-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:55:45 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc

13:55:53 [felix-amsterdam]

meeting: i18n core working group

13:55:56 [felix-amsterdam]

chair: Francois

13:56:00 [felix-amsterdam]

scribe: Felix

13:56:10 [felix-amsterdam]

scribeNick: felix-amsterdam

13:56:58 [felix-amsterdam]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006May/0010.html

14:00:26 [Zakim]

I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started

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+[IPcaller]

14:01:06 [r12a]

r12a has joined #i18ncore

14:01:15 [r12a]

i'll be there shortly

14:01:26 [felix-amsterdam]

o.k.

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14:03:34 [felix-amsterdam]

hi francois, many thanks for sending the agenda

14:04:24 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:04:32 [fyergeau]

zakim, [ is fyergeau

14:04:32 [Zakim]

+fyergeau; got it

14:04:58 [r12a]

zakim, dial ishida

14:04:58 [Zakim]

ok, r12a; the call is being made

14:05:00 [Zakim]

+Ishida

14:05:40 [r12a]

zakim, mute ishida

14:05:40 [Zakim]

Ishida should now be muted

14:05:47 [r12a]

hi

14:05:51 [fyergeau]

Hi

14:05:56 [r12a]

eating lunch

14:06:13 [r12a]

but ok to start

14:06:35 [r12a]

did you see my agenda request ?

14:07:17 [r12a]

zakim, unmute ishida

14:07:17 [Zakim]

Ishida should no longer be muted

14:07:24 [felix-amsterdam]

action: all to look at charmod resid test suite and gather feedback

14:07:24 [fyergeau]

zakim, who is here?

14:07:24 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Felix (muted), fyergeau, Ishida

14:07:26 [Zakim]

On IRC I see fyergeau, r12a, RRSAgent, Zakim, felix-amsterdam

14:07:31 [felix-amsterdam]

francois: no new feedback

14:07:35 [felix-amsterdam]

.. this will be ongoing

14:07:59 [felix-amsterdam]

action: all to give feedback on the LTLI draft (ONGOING)

14:08:25 [felix-amsterdam]

action: Francois, ping Martin about when we can make the tests public (ONGOING)

14:08:34 [felix-amsterdam]

francois: did not hear from Martin

14:09:23 [felix-amsterdam]

s/not hear/hear/

14:09:31 [felix-amsterdam]

.. all pages are no accessible

14:09:40 [felix-amsterdam]

.. as for hosting: that will be o.k. as well

14:09:53 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: problem is: we need somebody to edit it or change s.t.

14:09:59 [felix-amsterdam]

.. in the W3C side, everybody can do that

14:10:14 [felix-amsterdam]

Francois: there are system dependencies which are part of the tests

14:10:28 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: we could probably do that in W3C as well

14:10:43 [felix-amsterdam]

.. another problem: How to accept tests from his Organization

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.. since they are not a member of W3C?

14:11:07 [felix-amsterdam]

.. again a patent policy problem

14:11:26 [felix-amsterdam]

Francois: do we say *we* maintain a test suite?

14:11:57 [felix-amsterdam]

"as soon as the following conditions are met:": no need for *us* to procude the test suite

14:12:19 [felix-amsterdam]

francois: so no requirement to have a W3C test suite

14:12:37 [Zakim]

+Karunesh_Arora

14:12:43 [karuneshvijay]

karuneshvijay has joined #i18Ncore

14:13:44 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', felix-amsterdam. Try /msg RRSAgent help

14:15:37 [felix-amsterdam]

francois: for XML we have a test suite. It's hosted by MIT

14:15:53 [felix-amsterdam]

.. MIT is a member, and there were some processes to accept that as a contribution.

14:16:02 [felix-amsterdam]

s/MIT/MIST/

14:16:31 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: one question: is a non w3c test suite sufficient to get through CR?

14:17:26 [r12a]

s/MIST/NIST/

14:18:10 [r12a]

three main possible scenarios:

14:18:35 [r12a]

[1] stays on martin\s servers and just point to those tests over there to fulfill CR criteria

14:19:03 [r12a]

[2] stays on martins servers, but we call them W3C tests

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[3] move the tests to W3C servers so taht we can handle maintenance more easily

14:19:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-minutes.html felix-amsterdam

14:19:50 [r12a]

each scenario 1 -3 probably involves increasing administrative complexity

14:20:16 [r12a]

ACTION: RI, FS, determine what is the minimal course necessary to pass CR

14:20:32 [felix-amsterdam]

felix: I will send a mail to plh

14:20:41 [fyergeau]

Correction: XML test suite is now hosted at W3C

14:21:15 [felix-amsterdam]

s/It's hosted by/It was hosted by/

14:21:27 [felix-amsterdam]

action: Felix to find out where the tests from Martin are (DROPPED)

14:21:46 [felix-amsterdam]

francois: I mentioned to Martin a start / presentation page, he said I'd be a good idea

14:22:01 [felix-amsterdam]

action: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws-i18n

14:22:35 [felix-amsterdam]

action: Mary to review http://www.w3.org/TR/its/ after 18 May before 30 June (ONGOING)

14:22:44 [felix-amsterdam]

action: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (PENDING)

14:23:49 [r12a]

zakim, mute ishida

14:23:49 [Zakim]

Ishida should now be muted

14:24:08 [felix-amsterdam]

action: Felix to implement discussion results from the i18n-comments list (DONE)

14:24:16 [felix-amsterdam]

action: Felix to create examples for defined terms (DONE)

14:24:28 [r12a]

zakim, unmute ishida

14:24:28 [Zakim]

Ishida should no longer be muted

14:24:42 [felix-amsterdam]

action: Felix to ask for a review extension for WCAG (DONE)

14:24:52 [felix-amsterdam]

topic: Charmod resid / charmod norm

14:26:09 [felix-amsterdam]

topic: i18n activity restructuring

14:26:24 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: we thought of i18n activity restructuring

14:26:36 [felix-amsterdam]

.. which AC reps at the AC meeting will see

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.. it is a discussion, not decided yet

14:26:53 [r12a]

http://www.w3.org/International/Activity.html

14:27:14 [felix-amsterdam]

richard: take a look at the bottom of the document

14:29:16 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: benefit is both for core and the spec work

14:29:35 [felix-amsterdam]

.. key benefit: we have been slow with charmod because we have other stuff on the radar

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.. on the other hand, spec work sometimes takes time from the review work

14:30:28 [felix-amsterdam]

.. separating out the core work from the specification work will help a lot

14:30:54 [felix-amsterdam]

.. web services work will probably be finished very quickly

14:31:22 [felix-amsterdam]

Francois: What will happen for specs which are a REC?

14:34:25 [felix-amsterdam]

richard: we have to think about that as well

14:34:45 [felix-amsterdam]

Francois: I like the proposal, only life after REC needs to be made clearer

14:34:55 [Zakim]

-Felix

14:34:59 [felix-amsterdam]

.. if there is a version 2.0 of a spec and there is a working group, that's o.k.

14:35:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-minutes.html felix-amsterdam

14:36:00 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:36:49 [felix-amsterdam]

richard: we will also stagger meetings / telefone conferences

14:37:00 [felix-amsterdam]

.. e.g. a charmod call every two weeks

14:37:28 [felix-amsterdam]

.. key benefit would be that work on specific topics is more focused, not distracted by other people

14:38:03 [felix-amsterdam]

francois: so the new core working group will be not under patent policy?

14:38:06 [felix-amsterdam]

richard: yes

14:38:36 [felix-amsterdam]

.. it would be beneficial to many people who want to join core

14:38:54 [felix-amsterdam]

francois: one problem: this goes for the AC, and there is a call for participation

14:39:13 [felix-amsterdam]

.. there is a risc that there is not enough participation to start a working group

14:39:30 [felix-amsterdam]

richard: for core that's no risk, we have the GEO folks

14:39:45 [felix-amsterdam]

.. for the ws working group, we need to have enough support to generate a working group

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.. I think we don't need to have a huge working group

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.. as for charmod, it would be maybe only three people

14:41:17 [felix-amsterdam]

richard: everybody fine with the proposal?

14:41:21 [felix-amsterdam]

.. (people on this call)

14:41:26 [felix-amsterdam]

no objection

14:41:41 [karuneshvijay]

yes

14:42:03 [felix-amsterdam]

topics: LTLI

14:42:12 [felix-amsterdam]

Francois: Felix implemented many changes

14:43:10 [felix-amsterdam]

Felix: Addison send new comments, please have a look

14:43:24 [felix-amsterdam]

Francois: so we send a publication request on Thursday

14:43:39 [felix-amsterdam]

.. anything else on LTLI?

14:44:03 [felix-amsterdam]

.. nice to see the progress, if you have comments, please send them in

14:44:38 [felix-amsterdam]

action: Felix to send a re-publication request for the LTLI draft

14:44:49 [felix-amsterdam]

s/LTLI draft/LTLI draft on Thursday/

14:45:05 [felix-amsterdam]

topic: first letter discussion

14:45:16 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: it is a pseudo element

14:45:34 [felix-amsterdam]

francois: there was a call for details, and a lot of mail about the Indic languages

14:45:46 [felix-amsterdam]

.. discussion on the www-international list

14:45:56 [felix-amsterdam]

.. should we write a Note about this?

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.. the CSS people seem to be very reluctant to make changes

14:46:18 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: Erika and I talked about it

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.. she asked me about (indic) examples, but not major changes for the spec

14:46:52 [felix-amsterdam]

.. maybe we should push for a stronger wording

14:47:11 [felix-amsterdam]

Francois: the examples show that "first letter, just one unicode character" is not sufficient

14:47:52 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: the default grapheme cluster rule would not cope with Indian scripts, would it?

14:47:56 [felix-amsterdam]

Francois: I'm not sure

14:48:09 [felix-amsterdam]

.. this should be checked

14:48:25 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: currently we say:

14:49:03 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard quotes the current text on "first letter"

14:49:05 [r12a]

original text:

14:49:06 [r12a]

Some languages may have specific rules about how to treat certain letter

14:49:06 [r12a]

# combinations. In Dutch, for example, if the letter combination "ij" appears

14:49:06 [r12a]

# at the beginning of a word, both letters should be considered within the

14:49:06 [r12a]

# :first-letter pseudo-element.

14:49:18 [r12a]

first proposal:

14:49:18 [r12a]

Note: In some cases the :first-letter pseudo-element should include more

14:49:19 [r12a]

than just the first non-punctuation code point on a line. For example,

14:49:19 [r12a]

combining characters must be kept with their base character. Additionally,

14:49:19 [r12a]

some languages may have specific rules about how to treat certain letter

14:49:19 [r12a]

combinations. In Dutch, for example, if the letter combination "ij"

14:49:21 [r12a]

appears at the beginning of an element, both letters should be considered

14:49:23 [r12a]

within the ::first-letter pseudo-element. The UA should include at least

14:49:25 [r12a]

the entire default grapheme cluster as defined by [UAX 29 Text Boundaries]

14:49:27 [r12a]

and may include more than that as appropriate.

14:50:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-minutes.html felix-amsterdam

14:51:24 [felix-amsterdam]

Francois: we where proposing "default grapheme cluster" as the base line

14:51:46 [felix-amsterdam]

.. they (CSS group) did not want to have that as a normative part, which is regretable

14:51:57 [felix-amsterdam]

.. because it does not cover many common things

14:52:05 [felix-amsterdam]

.. maybe we should push back now

14:52:29 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: karunesh, Vijay, is where a language specific varitation of what a first letter is?

14:53:14 [felix-amsterdam]

.. in latin scripts, there is language specific variations on how first letters shoud be treated, e.g. "ij" in Dutch

14:53:37 [felix-amsterdam]

.. the question is: are there language specific variations of first letter styling for various indic scripts?

14:55:01 [felix-amsterdam]

Karunesh: If you use Dev., the rules would be the same

14:55:16 [felix-amsterdam]

.. the situation might be different for other (indic)scripts

14:55:45 [felix-amsterdam]

Karunesh: the grapheme cluster seems to be an approriate unit

14:56:00 [felix-amsterdam]

karunesh gives some examples

14:56:16 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: gathering this information sounds interesting

14:56:41 [felix-amsterdam]

Karunesh: we are investigating from many specialists

14:56:51 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: Should we set up a wiki for this?

14:57:00 [felix-amsterdam]

Francois: good idea

14:58:21 [felix-amsterdam]

Karunesh: wiki sounds also good to me

14:58:30 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: would be good to involve the Unicode list

14:58:41 [felix-amsterdam]

.. many people on that list could make some input on this

14:59:10 [felix-amsterdam]

Richard: I'll put out another blog entry on this, which will point to the new wiki, and send a mail to the Unicode list about this

14:59:37 [felix-amsterdam]

action: Richard to create a wiki on "first letter", post a blog and write a mail to the Unicode list about it

15:00:27 [felix-amsterdam]

topic: other business

15:00:42 [felix-amsterdam]

francois: next week no meeting

15:00:54 [karuneshvijay]

richard : would you stay on phone for a minute after telecon

15:01:14 [Zakim]

-fyergeau

15:01:47 [Zakim]

-Felix

15:02:17 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-minutes.html felix-amsterdam

15:03:25 [felix-amsterdam]

present: Felix, Francois, Karunesh, Richard, Vijay

15:03:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-minutes.html felix-amsterdam

15:05:08 [Zakim]

-Ishida

15:05:09 [Zakim]

I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended

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Attendees were [IPcaller], Felix, fyergeau, Ishida, Karunesh_Arora

15:05:13 [karuneshvijay]

\quit

15:22:40 [r12a]

r12a has left #i18ncore

15:47:45 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #i18ncore

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-actions.rdf :

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: all to look at charmod resid test suite and gather feedback [1]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-07-24

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: all to give feedback on the LTLI draft (ONGOING) [2]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-07-59

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Francois, ping Martin about when we can make the tests public (ONGOING) [3]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-08-25

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: RI, FS, determine what is the minimal course necessary to pass CR [4]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-20-16

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to find out where the tests from Martin are (DROPPED) [5]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-21-27

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws-i18n [6]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-22-01

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mary to review http://www.w3.org/TR/its/ after 18 May before 30 June (ONGOING) [7]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-22-35

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (PENDING) [8]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-22-44

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to implement discussion results from the i18n-comments list (DONE) [9]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-24-08

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to create examples for defined terms (DONE) [10]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-24-16

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to ask for a review extension for WCAG (DONE) [11]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-24-42

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to send a re-publication request for the LTLI draft [12]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-44-38

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Richard to create a wiki on "first letter", post a blog and write a mail to the Unicode list about it [13]

15:47:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-59-37