13:55:45 RRSAgent has joined #i18ncore 13:55:45 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc 13:55:53 meeting: i18n core working group 13:55:56 chair: Francois 13:56:00 scribe: Felix 13:56:10 scribeNick: felix-amsterdam 13:56:58 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006May/0010.html 14:00:26 I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started 14:00:27 +[IPcaller] 14:01:06 r12a has joined #i18ncore 14:01:15 i'll be there shortly 14:01:26 o.k. 14:02:46 fyergeau has joined #i18ncore 14:03:34 hi francois, many thanks for sending the agenda 14:04:24 +[IPcaller] 14:04:32 zakim, [ is fyergeau 14:04:32 +fyergeau; got it 14:04:58 zakim, dial ishida 14:04:58 ok, r12a; the call is being made 14:05:00 +Ishida 14:05:40 zakim, mute ishida 14:05:40 Ishida should now be muted 14:05:47 hi 14:05:51 Hi 14:05:56 eating lunch 14:06:13 but ok to start 14:06:35 did you see my agenda request ? 14:07:17 zakim, unmute ishida 14:07:17 Ishida should no longer be muted 14:07:24 action: all to look at charmod resid test suite and gather feedback 14:07:24 zakim, who is here? 14:07:24 On the phone I see Felix (muted), fyergeau, Ishida 14:07:26 On IRC I see fyergeau, r12a, RRSAgent, Zakim, felix-amsterdam 14:07:31 francois: no new feedback 14:07:35 .. this will be ongoing 14:07:59 action: all to give feedback on the LTLI draft (ONGOING) 14:08:25 action: Francois, ping Martin about when we can make the tests public (ONGOING) 14:08:34 francois: did not hear from Martin 14:09:23 s/not hear/hear/ 14:09:31 .. all pages are no accessible 14:09:40 .. as for hosting: that will be o.k. as well 14:09:53 Richard: problem is: we need somebody to edit it or change s.t. 14:09:59 .. in the W3C side, everybody can do that 14:10:14 Francois: there are system dependencies which are part of the tests 14:10:28 Richard: we could probably do that in W3C as well 14:10:43 .. another problem: How to accept tests from his Organization 14:10:50 .. since they are not a member of W3C? 14:11:07 .. again a patent policy problem 14:11:26 Francois: do we say *we* maintain a test suite? 14:11:57 "as soon as the following conditions are met:": no need for *us* to procude the test suite 14:12:19 francois: so no requirement to have a W3C test suite 14:12:37 +Karunesh_Arora 14:12:43 karuneshvijay has joined #i18Ncore 14:13:44 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', felix-amsterdam. Try /msg RRSAgent help 14:15:37 francois: for XML we have a test suite. It's hosted by MIT 14:15:53 .. MIT is a member, and there were some processes to accept that as a contribution. 14:16:02 s/MIT/MIST/ 14:16:31 Richard: one question: is a non w3c test suite sufficient to get through CR? 14:17:26 s/MIST/NIST/ 14:18:10 three main possible scenarios: 14:18:35 [1] stays on martin\s servers and just point to those tests over there to fulfill CR criteria 14:19:03 [2] stays on martins servers, but we call them W3C tests 14:19:28 [3] move the tests to W3C servers so taht we can handle maintenance more easily 14:19:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-minutes.html felix-amsterdam 14:19:50 each scenario 1 -3 probably involves increasing administrative complexity 14:20:16 ACTION: RI, FS, determine what is the minimal course necessary to pass CR 14:20:32 felix: I will send a mail to plh 14:20:41 Correction: XML test suite is now hosted at W3C 14:21:15 s/It's hosted by/It was hosted by/ 14:21:27 action: Felix to find out where the tests from Martin are (DROPPED) 14:21:46 francois: I mentioned to Martin a start / presentation page, he said I'd be a good idea 14:22:01 action: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws-i18n 14:22:35 action: Mary to review http://www.w3.org/TR/its/ after 18 May before 30 June (ONGOING) 14:22:44 action: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (PENDING) 14:23:49 zakim, mute ishida 14:23:49 Ishida should now be muted 14:24:08 action: Felix to implement discussion results from the i18n-comments list (DONE) 14:24:16 action: Felix to create examples for defined terms (DONE) 14:24:28 zakim, unmute ishida 14:24:28 Ishida should no longer be muted 14:24:42 action: Felix to ask for a review extension for WCAG (DONE) 14:24:52 topic: Charmod resid / charmod norm 14:26:09 topic: i18n activity restructuring 14:26:24 Richard: we thought of i18n activity restructuring 14:26:36 .. which AC reps at the AC meeting will see 14:26:44 .. it is a discussion, not decided yet 14:26:53 http://www.w3.org/International/Activity.html 14:27:14 richard: take a look at the bottom of the document 14:29:16 Richard: benefit is both for core and the spec work 14:29:35 .. key benefit: we have been slow with charmod because we have other stuff on the radar 14:30:03 .. on the other hand, spec work sometimes takes time from the review work 14:30:28 .. separating out the core work from the specification work will help a lot 14:30:54 .. web services work will probably be finished very quickly 14:31:22 Francois: What will happen for specs which are a REC? 14:34:25 richard: we have to think about that as well 14:34:45 Francois: I like the proposal, only life after REC needs to be made clearer 14:34:55 -Felix 14:34:59 .. if there is a version 2.0 of a spec and there is a working group, that's o.k. 14:35:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-minutes.html felix-amsterdam 14:36:00 +[IPcaller] 14:36:49 richard: we will also stagger meetings / telefone conferences 14:37:00 .. e.g. a charmod call every two weeks 14:37:28 .. key benefit would be that work on specific topics is more focused, not distracted by other people 14:38:03 francois: so the new core working group will be not under patent policy? 14:38:06 richard: yes 14:38:36 .. it would be beneficial to many people who want to join core 14:38:54 francois: one problem: this goes for the AC, and there is a call for participation 14:39:13 .. there is a risc that there is not enough participation to start a working group 14:39:30 richard: for core that's no risk, we have the GEO folks 14:39:45 .. for the ws working group, we need to have enough support to generate a working group 14:39:59 .. I think we don't need to have a huge working group 14:40:10 .. as for charmod, it would be maybe only three people 14:41:17 richard: everybody fine with the proposal? 14:41:21 .. (people on this call) 14:41:26 no objection 14:41:41 yes 14:42:03 topics: LTLI 14:42:12 Francois: Felix implemented many changes 14:43:10 Felix: Addison send new comments, please have a look 14:43:24 Francois: so we send a publication request on Thursday 14:43:39 .. anything else on LTLI? 14:44:03 .. nice to see the progress, if you have comments, please send them in 14:44:38 action: Felix to send a re-publication request for the LTLI draft 14:44:49 s/LTLI draft/LTLI draft on Thursday/ 14:45:05 topic: first letter discussion 14:45:16 Richard: it is a pseudo element 14:45:34 francois: there was a call for details, and a lot of mail about the Indic languages 14:45:46 .. discussion on the www-international list 14:45:56 .. should we write a Note about this? 14:46:08 .. the CSS people seem to be very reluctant to make changes 14:46:18 Richard: Erika and I talked about it 14:46:35 .. she asked me about (indic) examples, but not major changes for the spec 14:46:52 .. maybe we should push for a stronger wording 14:47:11 Francois: the examples show that "first letter, just one unicode character" is not sufficient 14:47:52 Richard: the default grapheme cluster rule would not cope with Indian scripts, would it? 14:47:56 Francois: I'm not sure 14:48:09 .. this should be checked 14:48:25 Richard: currently we say: 14:49:03 Richard quotes the current text on "first letter" 14:49:05 original text: 14:49:06 Some languages may have specific rules about how to treat certain letter 14:49:06 # combinations. In Dutch, for example, if the letter combination "ij" appears 14:49:06 # at the beginning of a word, both letters should be considered within the 14:49:06 # :first-letter pseudo-element. 14:49:18 first proposal: 14:49:18 Note: In some cases the :first-letter pseudo-element should include more 14:49:19 than just the first non-punctuation code point on a line. For example, 14:49:19 combining characters must be kept with their base character. Additionally, 14:49:19 some languages may have specific rules about how to treat certain letter 14:49:19 combinations. In Dutch, for example, if the letter combination "ij" 14:49:21 appears at the beginning of an element, both letters should be considered 14:49:23 within the ::first-letter pseudo-element. The UA should include at least 14:49:25 the entire default grapheme cluster as defined by [UAX 29 Text Boundaries] 14:49:27 and may include more than that as appropriate. 14:50:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-minutes.html felix-amsterdam 14:51:24 Francois: we where proposing "default grapheme cluster" as the base line 14:51:46 .. they (CSS group) did not want to have that as a normative part, which is regretable 14:51:57 .. because it does not cover many common things 14:52:05 .. maybe we should push back now 14:52:29 Richard: karunesh, Vijay, is where a language specific varitation of what a first letter is? 14:53:14 .. in latin scripts, there is language specific variations on how first letters shoud be treated, e.g. "ij" in Dutch 14:53:37 .. the question is: are there language specific variations of first letter styling for various indic scripts? 14:55:01 Karunesh: If you use Dev., the rules would be the same 14:55:16 .. the situation might be different for other (indic)scripts 14:55:45 Karunesh: the grapheme cluster seems to be an approriate unit 14:56:00 karunesh gives some examples 14:56:16 Richard: gathering this information sounds interesting 14:56:41 Karunesh: we are investigating from many specialists 14:56:51 Richard: Should we set up a wiki for this? 14:57:00 Francois: good idea 14:58:21 Karunesh: wiki sounds also good to me 14:58:30 Richard: would be good to involve the Unicode list 14:58:41 .. many people on that list could make some input on this 14:59:10 Richard: I'll put out another blog entry on this, which will point to the new wiki, and send a mail to the Unicode list about this 14:59:37 action: Richard to create a wiki on "first letter", post a blog and write a mail to the Unicode list about it 15:00:27 topic: other business 15:00:42 francois: next week no meeting 15:00:54 richard : would you stay on phone for a minute after telecon 15:01:14 -fyergeau 15:01:47 -Felix 15:02:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-minutes.html felix-amsterdam 15:03:25 present: Felix, Francois, Karunesh, Richard, Vijay 15:03:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-minutes.html felix-amsterdam 15:05:08 -Ishida 15:05:09 I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended 15:05:10 Attendees were [IPcaller], Felix, fyergeau, Ishida, Karunesh_Arora 15:05:13 \quit 15:22:40 r12a has left #i18ncore 15:47:45 Zakim has left #i18ncore 15:47:51 I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-actions.rdf : 15:47:51 ACTION: all to look at charmod resid test suite and gather feedback [1] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-07-24 15:47:51 ACTION: all to give feedback on the LTLI draft (ONGOING) [2] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-07-59 15:47:51 ACTION: Francois, ping Martin about when we can make the tests public (ONGOING) [3] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-08-25 15:47:51 ACTION: RI, FS, determine what is the minimal course necessary to pass CR [4] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-20-16 15:47:51 ACTION: Felix to find out where the tests from Martin are (DROPPED) [5] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-21-27 15:47:51 ACTION: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws-i18n [6] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-22-01 15:47:51 ACTION: Mary to review http://www.w3.org/TR/its/ after 18 May before 30 June (ONGOING) [7] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-22-35 15:47:51 ACTION: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod norm (PENDING) [8] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-22-44 15:47:51 ACTION: Felix to implement discussion results from the i18n-comments list (DONE) [9] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-24-08 15:47:51 ACTION: Felix to create examples for defined terms (DONE) [10] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-24-16 15:47:51 ACTION: Felix to ask for a review extension for WCAG (DONE) [11] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-24-42 15:47:51 ACTION: Felix to send a re-publication request for the LTLI draft [12] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-44-38 15:47:51 ACTION: Richard to create a wiki on "first letter", post a blog and write a mail to the Unicode list about it [13] 15:47:51 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-i18ncore-irc#T14-59-37