IRC log of tagmem on 2006-05-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:00:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
17:00:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/09-tagmem-irc
17:01:00 [ht]
meeting: TAG telcon
17:01:01 [noah]
zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
17:01:01 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
17:01:05 [Norm]
->http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/05/02-minutes.html
17:01:11 [Vincent]
Vincent has joined #tagmem
17:01:12 [ht]
chair: vincent
17:01:24 [ht]
scribe: Henry S Thompson
17:01:29 [ht]
scribenick: ht
17:01:54 [Zakim]
+Vincent
17:02:05 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
17:02:05 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
17:02:41 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
17:02:41 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
17:03:00 [ht]
zakim, disconnect ht
17:03:00 [Zakim]
sorry, ht, I do not see a party named 'ht'
17:03:47 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
17:03:47 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
17:04:36 [Vincent]
tlr, you are welcome to join on the phone
17:05:00 [Zakim]
+TimBL
17:05:07 [Vincent]
May be the discussion on the State finding may be of interest to you
17:05:20 [timbl_]
timbl_ has joined #tagmem
17:05:23 [Vincent]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:05:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Raman, noah, DanC (muted), Norm, Vincent, TimBL
17:05:34 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
17:05:34 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
17:05:43 [Zakim]
+DOrchard
17:05:58 [timbl_]
Fortunately, HT has a girl^H^H^H^Hphone number in every port
17:06:13 [ht]
:-)
17:06:24 [Zakim]
+Thomas
17:06:48 [Zakim]
+HT
17:06:48 [dorchard]
dorchard has joined #tagmem
17:07:13 [ht]
zakim, who is on the call?
17:07:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Raman, noah, DanC (muted), Norm, Vincent, TimBL, DOrchard, Thomas (muted), HT
17:07:58 [ht]
Topic: Admin
17:08:06 [ht]
Next telcon 16 May
17:08:26 [DanC]
I seem to be available 16 May
17:08:48 [ht]
VQ: Regrets from DO, HST
17:09:25 [ht]
... TVR will scribe
17:09:53 [ht]
NM: Regrets for 23 May
17:10:23 [DanC]
ah. IRW2006 23 May. yup, that's where I'll be.
17:10:24 [ht]
VQ: Who else knows their situation that day?
17:11:04 [ht]
TBL: I'm at a workshop with Henry that day
17:11:14 [ht]
HST: So I am also engaged
17:11:41 [ht]
s/NM: Regrets/NM: At risk/
17:11:58 [ht]
DO: I'm still off that week
17:12:27 [ht]
VQ: May not be available 23 May either myself -- that call is clearly at risk, will confirm next week whether we cancel or not
17:12:56 [DanC]
(http://www.w3.org/2006/05/02-tagmem-minutes.html seems to have a member-only stylesheet ?)
17:12:58 [ht]
VQ: Minutes from last telcon: http://www.w3.org/2006/05/02-tagmem-minutes.html
17:13:08 [noah]
Thanks Norm, for making that change I requested.
17:13:11 [ht]
NW: I made the change NM requested and checked them back in
17:13:44 [Norm]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/05/02-minutes.html
17:14:09 [DanC]
(http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/05/02-minutes.html is white ; better; says draft)
17:14:33 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/05/02-minutes.html close enough for me.
17:14:53 [ht]
VQ: Those minutes -- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/05/02-minutes.html -- now approved
17:15:48 [ht]
Topic: Agenda for June f2f
17:15:59 [ht]
VQ: We need a good long session on security
17:16:26 [ht]
... Suggestion to invite Thomas Roessler by 'phone, and ??, in person
17:16:41 [ht]
... Plan to have that discussion on Tuesday, the second day
17:16:44 [tlr]
s/??/Ben Adida/
17:17:12 [DanC]
tlr, Tues OK for you?
17:17:54 [ht]
VQ: We'll start in the morning for the benefit of TLR calling in from Europe
17:18:02 [ht]
DC: Date is 13 June
17:18:21 [ht]
TLR: I've put that afternoon (European time) in my diary
17:18:44 [ht]
VQ: Since we have Ben coming, I expect we'll carry on into the afternoon
17:18:55 [ht]
TLR: I'll excuse myself at some point
17:19:10 [ht]
VQ: NW, can we have a phone in the meeting room?
17:19:38 [ht]
NW: Yes, provided we can get Zakim to call us -- I'll find out the number and get it in the zakim db
17:19:49 [ht]
DC: I can bring a Vonage box if necessary
17:20:08 [DanC]
(ndw, did you see my request to add net info to http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/06/12-logistics.html ? )
17:20:17 [ht]
ACTION: NW to check with venue hosts, fallback to DC/Vonage if no phone
17:21:08 [ht]
TBL, NW: Coordinating wrt rides to/from the meeting for those flying in to Logan
17:21:30 [ht]
s/NW: Coord/NM: Coord/
17:22:06 [ht]
DO: Coming in to Hartford (BDL)
17:22:57 [ht]
NM: Will check if I can carry everyone (DO, HST, TVR, NM, TBL)
17:23:58 [ht]
+ Bubbles!
17:24:12 [timbl_]
:)
17:26:08 [ht]
VQ: DC, access control on the agenda?
17:26:19 [ht]
DC: Maybe, we'll see
17:26:25 [ht]
Topic: State finding
17:26:42 [ht]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/state.html
17:26:52 [ht]
VQ: NW, have you reviewed this?
17:26:56 [ht]
NW: No, sorry
17:27:10 [ht]
VQ: ER was supposed to also, but not here
17:27:20 [DanC]
q+
17:27:44 [ht]
DO: I will be absent for two weeks . . . how about agenda item for 30 May?
17:27:56 [ht]
NM: When was last major change?
17:28:03 [ht]
DO: 19 April
17:28:35 [ht]
NM: Much improved from previous version
17:28:38 [Vincent]
ack danc
17:29:28 [ht]
DC: This is a big topic area. . .talk about my.yahoo.com?
17:29:30 [ht]
DO: No
17:30:11 [ht]
DC: If I bookmark my.yahoo.com showing latest (KC) Royals win, send it to my friend, he doesn't see what I see unless he's got the Royals registered as his favourite team
17:30:27 [timbl_]
q+
17:30:28 [ht]
DO: Didn't cover that as such, but [scribe missed]
17:30:44 [ht]
DC: Connects with TVR' s concern
17:30:54 [ht]
... TLR, you look at this?
17:30:59 [ht]
TLR: No
17:31:10 [ht]
DC: Because there's login state stuff
17:31:23 [ht]
DO: There's a bank account example
17:31:42 [ht]
... Section 8, session state, has this
17:32:01 [ht]
TBL: You show different ways of doing it
17:32:07 [ht]
... Do you conclude which is best?
17:32:44 [ht]
DO: No, give the tradeoffs, but do point out most apps don't do any of this, but use cookies
17:33:21 [ht]
TBL: So the impact on URIs -- if you bookmark it, with sessionid=5, and come back to it, you get Timed Out.
17:34:11 [DanC]
indeed, "session id timed out" is evil. let's please say so.
17:35:09 [ht]
TBL: Two choices: BankOfAmerica says -- you lose, and sends you to the homepage; BritAirways requires re-authorisation, but then _does_ send you where you were trying to go
17:35:22 [ht]
DO: I didn't cover that option, no
17:35:54 [ht]
HST only ever bookmarks the login page of his banks, because nothing else ever works
17:36:12 [dorchard]
DO: I covered the URL rewriting case, and the various examples including rewriting URIs including session ids.
17:36:34 [ht]
TBL: Moving around in a secure site, timeout shouldn't lose all your 'state', re-authenticating should allow you to continue
17:36:47 [ht]
q+ to mention shopping
17:37:20 [timbl_]
Goal: Reauthentication should not affect the transaction of navigation sequence.
17:37:21 [ht]
DO: So I should be more specific about what good app. design is in this regard, along the lines above
17:37:43 [ht]
... I touched on that, but should do more
17:37:52 [Vincent]
ack timbl
17:38:27 [ht]
TBL: PLH looked at this, but didn't get what it was about -- something up front clarifying this is about "When to use URLs and when to use cookies"
17:38:57 [DanC]
(pls do cut to the chase; be more controversial.)
17:39:04 [ht]
DO: As it stands it's not judgemental, rather a discussion of what the features of the alternative approaches are
17:39:11 [timbl_]
q-
17:39:57 [ht]
HST: PLH wasn't complaining about lack of judgement
17:40:10 [ht]
DC: I think more hard judgements are a good idea
17:40:19 [DanC]
(I think the non-judgemental style makes the relevant points hard to find.)
17:41:00 [ht]
TBL: A few 'blue boxes' [best practices, etc.] are a good idea, maybe use one for what we're discussing
17:41:24 [ht]
... Then there's the security issue
17:42:03 [ht]
DO: One reason people put stuff in the message body rather than the URI itself is precisely for security -- in the message SSL will cover it
17:42:22 [Vincent]
ack DanC
17:42:22 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to look at the state finding from a couple audiences: access control/javascript sandbox, @@, and @@
17:42:22 [DanC]
ack danc
17:42:28 [ht]
... ER scanned all the examples in that regard
17:43:06 [ht]
DC: Javascript/Sandbox [?] stuff is buzzing in this area
17:43:23 [ht]
... We can't cover everything, of course
17:43:57 [noah]
q?
17:43:58 [timbl_]
Subtitle?
17:44:03 [ht]
... What's in the title matters: JS and Access Control; URIs vs. Cookies; Mobile and Content Targetting
17:44:26 [Vincent]
ack ht
17:44:26 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to mention shopping
17:45:11 [DanC]
(usability tends to correlate to risk profiles, yeah.)
17:45:28 [timbl_]
The bank is a hair from losing me as a customer
17:45:38 [noah]
q+
17:45:45 [ht]
... Another way to be clearer is to take stronger positions
17:45:55 [noah]
q-
17:46:40 [ht]
HST: Note that where there's stronger commercial pressure, shopping sites, e.g. Amazon, Buy.com, do much better with bookmarking and/or resumption after timeout and reauth, because failure to do so has a real impact on sales
17:46:49 [ht]
DC: I did leave my bank over this issue
17:47:03 [timbl_]
By the way, Dave, if a session ID is a very large random number then the example should give one.
17:47:03 [ht]
HST: Folks like us are in the minority for the banks
17:47:26 [ht]
Topic: Single URI, Multiple content
17:47:36 [ht]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2006May/0011.html
17:47:54 [ht]
TVR: What kind of ground rules should we recommend
17:48:16 [ht]
... Wrt when you should keep the same URI, but ship different content based on header info
17:48:34 [ht]
... E.g. weather site sending different stuff to a mobile device
17:49:20 [ht]
... Where this breaks down is that mobile providers are saying "to get the right stuff from me, send the following as your user agent string"
17:49:52 [ht]
... Search engine bots tell sites they are bots, and get stuff to index on that basis
17:50:21 [ht]
... These two things don't work together, because the search results will _not_ be what the mobile user sees
17:50:53 [ht]
... Search engines sending lots of different UA strings seems like a very fragile way to go
17:51:10 [noah]
q+ to suggest (a) yes there's an issue (b) the criteria for the right answer are right there in the way Raman explains the use case
17:51:15 [ht]
... Maybe the current approach for natural language difference is a good model
17:51:32 [ht]
... There's a generic URL, which is the _only_ one you have to index
17:51:32 [timbl_]
q+ to suggest that part of the andwer for bots especially is publishing metatdat about the relationships beteween the various things available, (b) to say tht it is important to use both techniques. -- it is still important to send device independent information for storing and printing etc wioll want that.
17:52:28 [ht]
... If you tell your UA to ask for a particular language, then you'll get the right language version, but you can send the generic URI to a different language user and the right thing will happen
17:52:55 [DanC]
(hmm... mobile best practices is in last call, again... I wonder if it covers this...)
17:53:09 [ht]
... Not clear whether the problem will be for mobile or desktop down the road, because maybe there will be _more_ mobile browsers than desktop
17:53:16 [DanC]
q+
17:53:31 [Vincent]
ack noah
17:53:31 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to suggest (a) yes there's an issue (b) the criteria for the right answer are right there in the way Raman explains the use case
17:53:41 [ht]
... So core of proposal is that the generic URI always has the shared content
17:53:58 [DanC]
(I think mobile bp does cover this. http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#tc "Ensure that content provided by accessing a URI yields a thematically coherent experience when accessed from different devices." )
17:54:06 [ht]
NM: Agree with a lot of this, it's timely and we should say something about it
17:54:31 [DanC]
(seems to me the mobile BP WG is ahead of us, and we should provide input to what they're writing, rather than write our own)
17:55:18 [ht]
... Should emphasise that when you name your resources, if you think people will be tempted to try alternative UA strings, be very careful
17:55:24 [ht]
q+ to ask NM for clarification
17:55:49 [Vincent]
ack timbl
17:55:49 [Zakim]
timbl_, you wanted to suggest that part of the andwer for bots especially is publishing metatdat about the relationships beteween the various things available, (b) to say tht it
17:55:52 [Zakim]
... is important to use both techniques. -- it is still important to send device independent information for storing and printing etc wioll want that.
17:56:52 [ht]
TBL: Pointers to metadata are crucial, so you can put, at the related URI you are told about, info about the relationships between all the different versions
17:57:42 [DanC]
(yeah, much more common is that there will be 2 or 3 representations of a page: desktop, handheld-rich, and handheld-poor/SMS)
17:57:51 [ht]
... Extreme personalisation may be hard to describe, but the 90% case (multiple languages, large/small screen, all having the same information) should be easier
17:58:20 [ht]
... And the metadata can make clear that archiving only one (and which one) will be enough
17:58:37 [Zakim]
-Thomas
17:58:53 [DanC]
("guidelines on URI space" rings the issue 40 bell)
17:58:55 [ht]
TVR: So some advice about how to organise your URI space to minimise the problem (c.f. NM's comment)
17:59:35 [DanC]
( http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#URIGoodPractice-40 )
17:59:41 [ht]
... Bots had it simple at first -- .html yes, .cgi no
17:59:56 [DanC]
(not clear that issue 40 is distinguishable from issue 42. 1/2 ;-)
18:00:01 [ht]
... But now so much is generated on demand, that has broken down
18:00:38 [Vincent]
ack danc
18:00:45 [ht]
... This aspect of WebArch could stand to be emphasised
18:01:55 [ht]
DC: The MWPB doc does say something close to what TVR was saying
18:02:13 [ht]
s/MWPB/MWBP/
18:02:35 [ht]
... We should consider commenting on this, they have a good group and a lot of visibility
18:03:07 [ht]
TVR: Yes, say something there, but say something at the broader TAG level about organising your URI space
18:03:27 [ht]
DC: We do have issue 40, better to try that than 42, which is too open-ended
18:03:30 [Vincent]
ack ht
18:03:30 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to ask NM for clarification
18:04:48 [ht]
HST: I don't understand how choice of resource name influences others to use multiple UA strings or not
18:04:53 [DanC]
(well, /french/press-release1 is prolly worse than /press-release1.fr . wikipedia is learning this the hard way. W3C learned it the hard way with /Team/ and /Member/ and /Public/ )
18:05:03 [ht]
NM: Consider personal info, VCard style
18:05:23 [ht]
... Gearing up to do this, presuming different content for small vs large screen
18:05:32 [ht]
... These are related, not quite the same
18:05:49 [ht]
... I could use two different URIs, one for each
18:06:27 [ht]
... Search engines won't benefit from probing with different UA strings, because each resource has different content
18:06:54 [ht]
... But TVR points out the benefits of having a generic URI
18:07:00 [DanC]
q+ to note pain in wikipedia community around http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W3c vs http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/W3c as opposed to /wiki/W3c.en vs /wiki/W3c.fr
18:07:57 [ht]
... But once we _have_ a single URI which produces different content based on UA string, then the problem arises
18:08:30 [ht]
TVR: The problem arises if that's the _only_ URI, as long as every view has its own URI as well as the generic URI, the problem will be mitigated
18:09:05 [ht]
... Provided they are discoverable from the _normal_ hyperstructure of the Web
18:09:40 [Vincent]
ack DanC
18:09:40 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to note pain in wikipedia community around http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W3c vs http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/W3c as opposed to /wiki/W3c.en vs /wiki/W3c.fr
18:09:53 [noah]
Right, so there are in fact conflicting requirements: (a) I want one URI, to handle the situations where I want to send Tim a single link and he decides how to browse (b) I want separate URIs, so the user agent string won't become a de-facto part of the name and (c) I would prefer not to assign both generic and specific names to what is more or less the same resource, because I have to manage those names and their relationship.
18:10:43 [noah]
I do think we should do a finding and tell a story, but we should acknowledge going in that any answer is likely to be a compromise.
18:10:48 [ht]
DC: Language negotiation, wikipedia is struggling with having multiple domain names for the different languages, so they can't use conneg
18:11:40 [ht]
q+ to try to summarise
18:12:20 [ht]
DC: The wiki folk assumed more difference would arise between the different language definitions than actually did in practice
18:12:57 [ht]
VQ: There is a page in the French wikipedia a page for every village and town in France -- not clear it makes sense for that to be forced into English
18:13:37 [ht]
TVR: The canonical /generic document need not be in English -- it's the one that was authored originally
18:13:51 [DanC]
(yes, it's for the reasons VQ gives that wikipedia chose separate domans. but that turns out to completely prohibit conneg, whereas if they had done the URIs the other way, that wouldn't _require_ that they do conneg. though... hmm... it might interact poorly with wiki naming)
18:14:05 [timbl_]
300,000,000 m/s vs 300.000.000 m/s also
18:14:17 [ht]
VQ: The question is who will make the translation
18:14:24 [DanC]
but the information is the same, timbl, you can write it both ways on the page and everybody will get it.
18:14:30 [ht]
TVR: Not the right starting point
18:15:16 [ht]
TBL: W3C actually similar case -- home page and docs are translated, some events aren't
18:16:13 [ht]
... I had an interesting pblm when I tried to do the right thing with Cool URIs -- by adding .es version, I got angry mail from someone in Spain saying "don't force me to the spanish version, I want to read the original"
18:16:48 [dorchard]
reminds me of the same discussion in GEB. The dostoevsky (I think) used Letters for streets to protect people. But russians could figure out the streets. So should a translation use letters or street names? But that misses the whole perspective of what was going on. Maybe Dickens is the best translation.
18:16:56 [ht]
TVR: Right, not always right to remove control of what the user sees from the user
18:17:23 [ht]
TBL: Adding the metadata helps
18:17:40 [Vincent]
ack ht
18:17:40 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to try to summarise
18:20:19 [ht]
HST: So TBL and TVR not quite saying the same thing -- TVR says generic, plus specialised, with _ordinary hyperlinks_ from the generic one, so the search engine's normal behaviour will find them, whereas TBL was suggesting that connection might be in metadata
18:20:23 [noah]
q+ to distinguish crawler links from visible links
18:20:43 [ht]
TVR: Yes, that difference was there, but I think the two positions can be reconciled
18:21:04 [ht]
... E.g. if the metadata is <link>ed from the <head>, it can be done
18:21:28 [ht]
... If that becomes the convention of the Web, then the crawlers will get smart and follow them
18:21:49 [ht]
TBL: I think I discussed this in DesignIssues/Generic, maybe. . .
18:22:05 [timbl_]
http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic
18:22:09 [ht]
... But it's not clear how to get this rolling
18:22:18 [ht]
DC: You do it, get two friends, . .. .
18:22:29 [ht]
... when you get up to the 1000s, the bots will notice
18:22:31 [Vincent]
ack noah
18:22:31 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to distinguish crawler links from visible links
18:23:11 [ht]
NM: Visual distinction between a link I can click on, and a link a crawler can find but I can't see
18:23:27 [ht]
... I don't know how the tradeoffs would work in the mobile case
18:23:53 [timbl_]
q+ to clarify ... I woruld support metadat over visible links
18:23:53 [ht]
... Not clear that the Spanish use case and the Mobile use case admit to the same solution -- and that maybe invisible links help
18:24:21 [ht]
TVR: Sometimes visible, sometimes invisible is also a use case
18:24:41 [ht]
... So put them in link tags, and let the UA decide when to show them
18:25:07 [ht]
... Versus css-hidden <A> tags
18:25:16 [ht]
... No big difference at the 5000-foot level
18:25:30 [Vincent]
ack timbl
18:25:30 [Zakim]
timbl_, you wanted to clarify ... I woruld support metadat over visible links
18:25:53 [noah]
Noah would also like a minute at the end to give news on Boston/Amherst travel arrangements
18:26:10 [Vincent]
ok, noah
18:26:19 [DanC]
(metadata is only good enough if there's support in UAs.0
18:26:20 [DanC]
)
18:26:26 [ht]
TBL: I agree TVR and I are not far apart -- I'd prefer for these to be in the metadata, not wanting the spanish example to be taken as a preference for visible links
18:26:40 [ht]
HST +1 to DanC's comment
18:26:58 [DanC]
q+
18:27:07 [Vincent]
ack danc
18:27:22 [ht]
TVR: For the future -- something quite bounded in scope, without exposing us to problems long-term, that people will find helpful in addressing this problem
18:27:47 [ht]
DC: You've got a content-type / media-type action pending. ...
18:28:23 [ht]
TVR: I'm focussed on the topic at hand this month, prefer to do it first
18:28:46 [DanC]
(it's mildly inconvinenient, for me, to have draft findings without issue numbers.)
18:28:59 [ht]
VQ: I hear TVR offering to be editor for a document here, we support him to try to draft something here
18:29:34 [ht]
... Timetable?
18:29:44 [ht]
TVR: Rough first draft for f2f
18:30:19 [DanC]
(I'm happy to have misc actions etc. tracked under issue 42)
18:30:32 [ht]
VQ: We have a problem with this topic, and the state finding, that there is no issue number for them
18:31:09 [ht]
DC: We need a group decision to add issues to the issues list, with number _and_ name
18:31:31 [ht]
NM: Discuss names for these by email
18:31:58 [Zakim]
-DOrchard
18:33:38 [Zakim]
-Raman
18:33:39 [Zakim]
-TimBL
18:33:39 [Zakim]
-Norm
18:33:41 [Zakim]
-noah
18:33:43 [Zakim]
-Vincent
18:33:53 [Zakim]
-DanC
18:33:58 [Zakim]
-HT
18:33:59 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended
18:34:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were Raman, DanC, Norm, noah, Vincent, TimBL, DOrchard, Thomas, HT
18:35:43 [ht]
Present: Tim Berners-Lee, Dan Connolly, Noah Mendelsohn, David Orchard, Vincent Quint, TV Raman, Henry S. Thompson, Norm Walsh, Thomas Roessler (observer, in part)
18:35:54 [ht]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:35:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/09-tagmem-minutes.html ht
18:36:14 [ht]
RRSAgent, make logs team-visible
18:36:20 [ht]
zakim, bye
18:36:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem
18:36:26 [ht]
rrsagent, bye
18:36:26 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/09-tagmem-actions.rdf :
18:36:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: NW to check with venue hosts, fallback to DC/Vonage if no phone [1]
18:36:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/09-tagmem-irc#T17-20-17