IRC log of dawg on 2006-05-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:27:07 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:27:07 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/09-dawg-irc

14:27:21 [AndyS_]

SteveH : I agree with almost all your testing email - just checking out the final few out

14:27:47 [SteveH]

AndyS_, great. I checked most of them against the spec, but some I was a bit unsure about

14:28:00 [kendall]

zakim, what conference is this?

14:28:00 [Zakim]

no conference has been selected, kendall

14:28:26 [kendall]

zakim, this will be DAWG

14:28:26 [Zakim]

ok, kendall; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

14:28:35 [patH]

so, are we staRTING?

14:28:45 [kendall]

heh, i'm just trying to bootup :)

14:28:52 [patH]

OK, I'LL WAIT.

14:28:58 [kendall]

doing all the DanC stuff I took for granted -wink-0

14:28:59 [patH]

sorry about uppercase there.

14:29:32 [kendall]

agenda+ convene

14:29:54 [kendall]

agenda+ future meeting times

14:30:04 [kendall]

btw, i need a scribe, didn't see one in last meeting's minutes...

14:30:14 [kendall]

agenda+ JSON results format status

14:30:24 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started

14:30:24 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:30:26 [kendall]

agenda+ punctuationSyntax: bnodes in predicates

14:30:32 [kendall]

agenda+ valueTesting

14:30:38 [kendall]

agenda+ test suite maintenance

14:30:49 [kendall]

heh, that's enough for now I gather

14:31:03 [kendall]

ericP: can you scribe?

14:31:08 [Zakim]

+Kendall_Clark

14:31:17 [kendall]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:31:17 [Zakim]

On the phone I see EricP, Kendall_Clark

14:31:28 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:31:44 [kendall]

DanC: couldn't find it in the minutes

14:32:03 [Zakim]

+??P22

14:32:06 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:32:11 [AndyS_]

zakim, ??P22 is me

14:32:11 [Zakim]

+AndyS_; got it

14:32:43 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006AprJun/att-0052/18-dawg-minutes.html minutes 18 Apr

14:32:59 [DanC]

"Lee or Jeen to scribe"

14:33:07 [Zakim]

+ +1.603.459.aaaa

14:33:20 [AndyS_]

SteveH - I agreed with the extendedType tests though - because I don't follow the spec and have an action open on it

14:33:56 [Souri]

Souri has joined #dawg

14:34:06 [AndyS_]

Andy has dialed in!

14:34:17 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 1

14:34:17 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "convene" taken up [from kendall]

14:34:23 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:34:23 [Zakim]

On the phone I see EricP, Kendall_Clark, DanC, AndyS_, PatH, +1.603.459.aaaa

14:34:36 [DanC]

Zakim, aaaa is Souri

14:34:36 [Zakim]

+Souri; got it

14:35:22 [DanC]

ACTION EricP: get well.

14:35:56 [DanC]

Scribe: DanC

14:36:02 [DanC]

Chair: Kendall

14:36:42 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006AprJun/att-0052/18-dawg-minutes.html minutes 18 Apr

14:37:39 [DanC]

AFS: I sent a correction re # of actions...

14:37:44 [DanC]

KC: I think this is the corrected version

14:38:07 [DanC]

RESOLVED: to approve minutes 18 Apr

14:38:17 [kendall]

zakim, next agendum

14:38:17 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "future meeting times" taken up [from kendall]

14:39:16 [DanC]

KC: our scheduled time overlaps with RIF. it's not clear how much of an actual problem that is, but it's at least a potential problem.

14:39:41 [DanC]

KC: how about an hour earlier?

14:40:20 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:40:29 [SteveH]

Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH

14:40:29 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

14:40:33 [SteveH]

Zakim, mute me

14:40:33 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

14:40:40 [AndyS_]

I'm happy to move -1 hour.

14:40:45 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

14:40:45 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

14:40:50 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

14:40:50 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

14:40:53 [DanC]

DC: how about 9:30am Boston time, year round?

14:41:14 [DanC]

(or at least over this summer)

14:41:25 [AndyS_]

(14:30 BST(GMTDT) , 13:30 GMT)

14:41:45 [DanC]

hmm... 60, 90, or 120 minutes? weekly, every-other-week, or monthly?

14:42:01 [AndyS_]

CET is +1 hour to that.

14:43:00 [DanC]

PatH: I lean toward frequent meetings and make them short if there's not much to do

14:43:21 [SteveH]

as long as the mail goes out I will rememebr to dial in

14:43:58 [DanC]

PROPOSED: to meet Tuesdays 9:30am Boston time for 60 to 90 minutes, starting 16 May 2006 until further notice

14:44:13 [SteveH]

2nd'd

14:44:26 [DanC]

so RESOLVED.

14:44:54 [kendall]

next agendum

14:45:10 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 3

14:45:10 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "JSON results format status" taken up [from kendall]

14:45:19 [DanC]

EricP: I expect to get this done tomorrow.

14:45:26 [kendall]

zakim, next agendum

14:45:26 [Zakim]

agendum 3 was just opened, kendall

14:46:58 [SteveH]

I'm muted

14:47:41 [kendall]

zakim, next agendum

14:47:41 [kendall]

zakim, next agendum

14:47:41 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

14:47:41 [kendall]

zakim, unmute SteveH

14:47:41 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "punctuationSyntax: bnodes in predicates" taken up [from kendall]

14:47:43 [Zakim]

agendum 4 was just opened, kendall

14:47:45 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark was not muted, kendall

14:47:46 [kendall]

DanC: looked for records re: disallowing bnodes in predicate position

14:47:46 [Zakim]

SteveH should no longer be muted

14:47:48 [DanC]

ACTION: EricP to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/json-sparql/ [CONTINUES]

14:47:48 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 4

14:47:48 [DanC]

Topic: punctuationSyntax: bnodes in predicate

14:47:48 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "punctuationSyntax: bnodes in predicates" taken up [from kendall]

14:47:51 [DanC]

KC: I saw mail from Steve today

14:47:53 [DanC]

q+

14:48:03 [kendall]

DanC: couldn't find any explicit decision to that effect

14:48:29 [kendall]

DanC: Latest grammar includes bnodes in predicate position

14:49:02 [DanC]

Subject: Re: more on bnodes in predicate positions

14:49:02 [DanC]

Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 17:26:36 -0500

14:49:31 [kendall]

DanC: As of 11 Nov, bnodes were in

14:49:56 [SteveH]

Zakim, unmute me

14:49:56 [Zakim]

SteveH was not muted, SteveH

14:49:57 [kendall]

patH: may have last come up under rdfSemantics issue

14:50:28 [Souri]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0305.html

14:50:52 [libby]

libby has joined #dawg

14:50:59 [kendall]

hi libby

14:51:08 [kendall]

NP :)

14:52:31 [DanC]

hmm... we RESOLVED "that SPARQL QL editor's draft 1.623 section 2.5 addresses issue rdfSemantics and is sufficient to postpone issue owlDisjunction", and bnodes are out there.

14:52:58 [DanC]

change was made in 1.629 2006/01/30 17:38:14

14:53:31 [kendall]

SteveH: remembers discussion of this, colleagues suggest that the restriction is somewhat confusing

14:53:48 [DanC]

I thnk I should edit the issues list to show that the 26 Jan decision re rdfSemantics also affects punctuationSyntax

14:54:02 [kendall]

DanC: I'd be happy for you to do that.

14:54:28 [DanC]

SH: I'm getting feedback that prohibiting bnodes in Verb is inconvenient

14:54:41 [DanC]

EricP: there's [something involving * that the scribe didn't really catch]

14:55:11 [DanC]

AndyS: it would change the semantics...

14:55:31 [DanC]

PatH: yes, it might work, but then it wouldn't work with OWL...

14:55:40 [DanC]

... but OWL might change in that direction too.

14:56:24 [DanC]

SH: there are approved tests that are relevant

14:57:14 [DanC]

AndyS: those tests don't test the semantics

14:58:36 [DanC]

ACTION AndyS: find tests with bnodes in predicates and mark them as syntax errors (and unapproved until we approve them)

14:59:24 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#punctuationSyntax

15:00:01 [kendall]

zakim, agenda+ comments on RIF use cases

15:00:03 [Zakim]

agendum 7 added

15:00:33 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: edit http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#punctuationSyntax to show ammendment 26 Jan http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/att-0298/26-dawg-minutes.html

15:00:45 [kendall]

ACTION Kendall: to mark valuetesting as open on issues list (i.e., to really learn how to handle issues list)

15:02:33 [DanC]

KC: how do we re-sync editors drafts with published TRs?

15:02:56 [DanC]

DC: well, you can ask to do an updated CR, or go back to WD, or ask for PR

15:03:02 [kendall]

zakim, next agendum

15:03:07 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "valueTesting" taken up [from kendall]

15:03:30 [DanC]

EricP: no progress; pls continue. eta 2 weeks

15:03:41 [kendall]

zakim, next agendum

15:03:41 [Zakim]

agendum 5 was just opened, kendall

15:03:48 [kendall]

zakim, take up next agendum

15:03:48 [Zakim]

agendum 5 was just opened, kendall

15:04:00 [ericP]

zakim, take up agendum 6

15:04:00 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "test suite maintenance" taken up [from kendall]

15:04:31 [DanC]

DC: my action went to Andy last week.

15:05:06 [AndyS_]

ACTION: AndyS: to draft of open-world = tests

15:05:33 [AndyS_]

ACTION: AndyS to contribute a couple tests for computed-properties/virtual-prop/builtin. one using lists, and one not using lists

15:05:43 [DanC]

yes, DONE, ACTION: EricP and Jeen to fix OPTIONAL coding

15:05:55 [DanC]

ACTION: EricP to propose text and tests to add {boolean < > = != boolean} to SPARQL [CONTINUES]

15:06:07 [ericP]

action -8

15:06:31 [ericP]

oops

15:06:33 [ericP]

wrong one

15:06:41 [kendall]

zakim, next agendum

15:06:41 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "valueTesting" taken up [from kendall]

15:06:48 [ericP]

ACTION: EricP to propose text and tests to add {boolean < > = != boolean} to SPARQL [CONTINUES]

15:06:49 [kendall]

zakim, take up agendum 6

15:06:50 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "test suite maintenance" taken up [from kendall]

15:06:53 [kendall]

zakim, take up agendum 7

15:06:53 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "comments on RIF use cases" taken up [from kendall]

15:07:39 [DanC]

KC: still interested?

15:07:55 [DanC]

PatH: yes, still interested; no progress yet

15:08:37 [DanC]

ACTION PatH: review RIF use cases; eta 2 weeks

15:08:56 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006AprJun/0039.html Sven's review of RIF Use Cases

15:09:08 [kendall]

ACTION PatH: to review RIF UC&R doc by roughly the 30th

15:09:12 [DanC]

PatH: ah... that's during WWW2006, so more like 30th

15:09:35 [kendall]

zakim, close agendum 7

15:09:35 [Zakim]

agendum 7, comments on RIF use cases, closed

15:09:39 [Zakim]

I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:

15:09:40 [Zakim]

5. valueTesting [from kendall]

15:09:44 [DanC]

Zakim, take up mime

15:09:45 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'take up mime', DanC

15:09:49 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/mid/20060421165157.GI26709@w3.org

15:09:50 [kendall]

zakim, close agendum 5

15:09:50 [Zakim]

agendum 5, valueTesting, closed

15:09:52 [Zakim]

I see nothing remaining on the agenda

15:09:58 [DanC]

Topic: MIME type registrations

15:10:00 [kendall]

zakim, agenda+ mime type issues

15:10:01 [Zakim]

agendum 8 added

15:10:07 [DanC]

ACTION: EricP to respond to [9]Dirk on MIME type stuff [DONE]

15:10:18 [kendall]

zakim, open agenda 8

15:10:18 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "mime type issues" taken up [from kendall]

15:10:23 [DanC]

ACTION EricP: to follow up on mime type requests [CONTINUES]

15:10:39 [AndyS_]

Nearby but different http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0443.html

15:11:15 [DanC]

EricP's action to "follow up" is to ask the W3C/IETF liaison to do the registration

15:11:45 [DanC]

AFS: there's this stuff of \u escapes... ok, yes, separable from mime types

15:11:49 [kendall]

AndyS: when do escape rules apply?

15:11:58 [DanC]

(sounds like punctuationSyntax should get opened again around \u)

15:12:48 [kendall]

slow chair didn't follow much of that... hope someone did :)

15:12:49 [DanC]

AFS: the layering between, e.g., \u and variable names is tricky; breaks traditional parser layering

15:13:26 [DanC]

(I suggest you re-open punctuationSyntax to address comments re \u escapes, KC)

15:13:47 [kendall]

yeah, since that way I may figure out what the issue is. :>

15:14:10 [DanC]

EricP: [something that sounded like a good test case, involving \u in quoted strings]

15:14:20 [DanC]

Zakim, mute my dog

15:14:20 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'mute my dog', DanC

15:14:45 [ericP]

ASK { ?s ?p "hi \"mom\"" |

15:14:47 [AndyS_]

zakim does not understand relative "my"

15:14:47 [kendall]

better than me trying to mute a noisy DC neighborhood!

15:15:13 [ericP]

ASK { ?s ?p "hi \u0023mom\u0023" |

15:15:21 [DanC]

>>> ord('"')

15:15:21 [DanC]

34

15:15:39 [ericP]

ASK { ?s ?p "hi \u0022mom\u0022" |

15:15:55 [DanC]

>>> hex(ord('"'))

15:15:55 [DanC]

'0x22'

15:16:12 [kendall]

Is that legal by the spec currently?

15:16:15 [DanC]

(regardless of what the answer is, it clearly merits a test case)

15:16:20 [kendall]

yes

15:17:44 [DanC]

AFS: yes, the spec gives an answer here, but one that is hard to implement

15:18:13 [DanC]

PatH: indeed, I'd prefer that "hi \u0022mom\u0022" were treated as "hi "mom"" which is not cool

15:18:27 [DanC]

EricP: this makes query generation a bit harder

15:18:51 [AndyS_]

Example: ?a\u0020x

15:19:14 [kendall]

it's obviously open IMO! :)

15:19:27 [DanC]

KC: ok, punctuationSyntax is open.

15:19:47 [DanC]

(anybody have a pointer to a relevant message from the comments achive?)

15:20:03 [Souri]

Question: Isn't "I said \"Hello World\"" a valid plain literal?

15:20:05 [AndyS_]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0443.html

15:21:12 [AndyS_]

#Is this comment\u0020 legal

15:21:20 [ericP]

# \u000d SELECT ...

15:21:43 [DanC]

(for the minutes, the comment relevant to bnodes in predicate is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2006Apr/0002.html , Test/grammar question Geoff Chappell (Thursday, 6 April) . I suppose we've answered him, though we haven't done the [OK?] dance. dunno if we need to.)

15:22:57 [DanC]

AFS: consider the case of writing a query with kanji characters in variable names from a us-ascii keyboard

15:22:59 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#escIRI

15:23:55 [DanC]

A.6 Escape sequences in IRI references, prefixed names and variable names

15:24:00 [ericP]

[[

15:24:02 [ericP]

These escape sequences are not included in the grammar below. Only escape sequences for characters that would be legal at that point in the grammar may be given. For example, the variable "?x\u0020y" is not legal (\u0020 is a space and is not permitted in a variable name).

15:24:06 [ericP]

\\

15:24:17 [ericP]

oh weak, no close bracket

15:25:21 [DanC]

DanC: note while this \u stuff looks wierd, but it's the result of a negotiation with the I18N WG

15:26:03 [DanC]

EricP: I'm more worried about backslashes in comments than [missed]

15:26:26 [DanC]

REQUEST FOR TESTCASE [ # \u000d SELECT ... ]

15:29:08 [DanC]

ACTION: AndyS write tests for \u details

15:29:22 [AndyS_]

NB // This is not legal Java \u because the \u is illegal

15:29:31 [AndyS_]

NB // This is legal Java \u0020

15:30:34 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

15:30:34 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SteveH

15:30:47 [SteveH]

sorry, no can do

15:31:02 [DanC]

regrets ericp, afs for 16 May due to XTech

15:31:41 [DanC]

PROPOSED: to meet Tuesdays 9:30am Boston time for 60 to 90 minutes, starting 30 May 2006 until further notice

15:31:49 [DanC]

RESOLVED

15:31:53 [DanC]

EricP to scribe 30 May

15:32:28 [Zakim]

-Souri

15:32:29 [SteveH]

bye

15:32:31 [Zakim]

-PatH

15:32:32 [Zakim]

-Kendall_Clark

15:32:32 [Zakim]

-DanC

15:32:35 [Zakim]

-SteveH

15:32:50 [DanC]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:32:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/09-dawg-minutes.html DanC

15:32:54 [kendall]

Do the bots need to be dismissed?

15:33:05 [DanC]

not really; they get bored and wander off after a while

15:33:09 [kendall]

cool

15:33:11 [DanC]

RRSAgent, stop