15:02:05 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 15:02:05 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/04-xproc-irc 15:02:07 Norm, this was already XML_PMWG()11:00AM 15:02:07 ht has joined #xproc 15:02:09 ok, Norm; that matches XML_PMWG()11:00AM 15:02:16 AndrewF has joined #xproc 15:02:22 zakim, please call ht-781 15:02:22 ok, ht; the call is being made 15:02:24 +Ht 15:02:27 zakim, what's the passcode? 15:02:27 the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), Norm 15:02:50 +Norm 15:02:51 zakim, please call Michael-Office 15:02:51 ok, MSM; the call is being made 15:02:52 +Michael 15:03:01 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 15:03:01 Scribe: Norm 15:03:01 ScribeNick: Norm 15:03:01 Date: 4 May 2006 15:03:01 Chair: Norm 15:03:02 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/05/04-agenda.html 15:03:32 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:03:32 On the phone I see Alessandro_Vernet, PGrosso, rlopes, Ht, Norm, Michael 15:03:38 +??P34 15:03:45 [The noise always stops when you ask about it!] 15:03:45 zakim, ??P34 is AndrewF 15:03:45 +AndrewF; got it 15:04:04 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:04:05 On the phone I see Alessandro_Vernet, PGrosso, rlopes, Ht, Norm, Michael, AndrewF 15:05:28 Alessandro, are you expecting Erik today? 15:05:37 richard has joined #xproc 15:06:02 +??P0 15:06:06 zakim, ? is richard 15:06:06 +richard; got it 15:06:10 Norm, I don't expect to see Erik here today 15:06:20 Ok 15:07:07 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:07:07 On the phone I see Alessandro_Vernet, PGrosso, rlopes, Ht, Norm, Michael, AndrewF, richard 15:07:41 Present: Alessandro, Andrew, Henry, Michael, Norman, Paul, Richard, Rui 15:07:49 Regrets: Erik, Mohamed 15:07:59 topic: Administrivia 15:08:12 Topic: Accept this agenda? 15:08:12 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/05/04-agenda.html 15:08:18 Accepted 15:08:22 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous teleconference? 15:08:22 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/04/27-minutes.html 15:08:29 Accepted 15:08:35 Topic: Next meeting: 11 May telcon 15:08:35 Any regrets? 15:08:50 Andrew is on vacation 11, 18 May 15:08:59 Michael is away for 11, 18, 25 May 15:09:10 +Alex_Milowski 15:09:13 Paul is away 11 May 15:09:19 Henry is away 18 May 15:09:32 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 15:09:33 Present: Alessandro, Andrew, Henry, Michael, Norman, Paul, Richard, Rui, Alex 15:09:56 Topic: Face-to-face meeting 15:10:07 Registration: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38398/XProcFTF2/ 15:10:39 Local arrangements: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/08/02-04-f2f.html 15:11:41 That's the beginnings of a local arrangements page, more details to follow 15:11:59 Topic: Open action items 15:12:29 A-18-01 is continued 15:12:49 A-17-02 is in progress 15:13:39 A-13-01 is continued 15:14:10 New ETA: 15 June 2006 15:14:42 Topic: Issue 3113: Does the pipeline engine act as a resource manager? 15:14:52 ->http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3113 15:15:27 Richard: I posted a couple of messages today, but looking at the example the email was talking about: XSLT importing a document produce somewhere else. 15:15:35 Richard: This is a conventional temporary file problem 15:16:04 Richard: Simply store things in files with generated names and then convey that name elsewhere. 15:16:34 +Murray_Maloney 15:16:57 Richard: There are other examples, such as XIncluding things. 15:17:09 Richard: You can simply transform the documents to refer to the generated file names. 15:18:07 Richard: As a concrete proposal for the temporary file system; I suggest a component that takes a document as input, stores it somewhere, and returns the URI that it used. 15:18:17 Alex: Do we have to do anything about this? 15:20:07 Norm: I don't think consensus is moving towards support for this proposal 15:20:24 HT: We'll need to spec quite carefully our story about pipeline parameters, variables, and their relationship to component and step variables. 15:20:43 HT: We've been postponing that for some time. But to make the workarounds work most gracefully, that mechanism is going to have to be there. 15:21:06 Proposal: No, the pipeline engine is not required to act as a resource manager. 15:21:32 Accepted 15:22:09 Norm asks HT to expand on his pipeline/parameter variable story 15:22:44 HT: Consider that I want to do something like this: take the output of Richards write input to temp file component and mediate between that and a component that will substitute the value into a document. 15:23:12 HT: I have a general purpose component that has two parameters, an XPath and a string. Wherever the XPath matches, it replaces what it finds with the string. 15:23:30 HT: The obvious thing to do is set the value of attributes or the text content of elements. 15:23:52 HT: Now I can get very close to doing the XInclude example if only I can get the result of Richards temporary component into a variable so that I can get it into a parameter. 15:24:02 -Michael 15:24:26 q+ 15:24:37 HT: That's appealing to some fairly natural concepts of pipeline variables and ways of using pipeline variables to supply component parameters 15:24:37 zakim, please call Michael-Office 15:24:38 ok, MSM; the call is being made 15:24:39 +Michael 15:25:06 ack Alessandro 15:25:12 ack alexmilowski 15:25:51 Alex: I wanted to second what Henry said. This is an important use case for lots of piplines I've built. I need to be able to bind to variables in a uniform way and be able to point into documents and update them. 15:26:00 Alex: Deleting whole subtrees is an example. 15:26:22 Alex: Renaming elements and attributes, namespaces, etc. 15:27:39 Norm: I think it's important to make sure that we get the framework right to support all the kinds of components that we need. 15:28:57 q+ 15:29:04 ACTION: Norm to create an issue for this 15:29:13 ACTION: Alex to send mail describing his ideas about variables 15:29:15 ack richard 15:29:37 Richard: I wanted to mention a relationship between variable mechanisms and one of the issues that came up with the resource manager issue. 15:29:54 Richard: If some component writes something to a temporary file, it's important that a component consuming it not try to read it before it's done. 15:30:14 Richard: Using a variable to communicate the location of the temporary files gives you a mechanism for managing that. 15:30:42 Richard: If a component can't start before the variable is set, then the process is managed by that variable. 15:31:22 Richard: You might use variables for other kinds of synchronization as well if we did that. 15:32:04 Norm: From the end of this discussion last week, how do we identify the inputs and outputs. By naming the endpoints or the things that flow through the pipe. 15:32:36 Norm: From the list, I think consensus is moving towards identifying the end points. 15:32:37 q+ 15:33:13 HT: Having worked for a while with the alternative, I think this is the right thing to do but we need to live with it for a while. 15:33:31 HT: It's not as immediately obvious what a graceful surface syntax is going to be. 15:33:38 s/obvious/obvious to see/ 15:33:42 ack alexmilowski 15:34:01 Alex: Internally, this is the right model. I'm just not convinced that there aren't cases where there are implicit connections to happen. 15:34:18 Alex: But I'm willing to push that off to the future. 15:34:38 HT: Absolutely. 15:35:21 HT: You don't want to see any of the low-level stuff at the authoring level 15:35:52 Richard: Abbreviation still leaves the question of what to do for the low-level syntax. 15:36:28 Richard: Recall that there are two ways to do this: by having names on each input/output or by naming the steps and having standard names for the inputs/outputs on each component 15:36:45 Alex: We can work on the shortcuts after we have a full syntax. 15:37:29 Richard: I think you're basically right. There's an obvious back-door into a resource manager if you give all the inputs/outputs names that are URIs. 15:38:48 Unabbreviated abstract syntax consists of 1) pipe((OutputPort)origin, (InputPort)destination); 15:38:49 MSM has joined #xproc 15:39:26 2) step((Component)component,(List of Param)params); 15:39:53 Norm expresses some concern about readability of a naming scheme that relies on knowledge of the underlying component input/output names. 15:40:02 s/);/(String)name);/ 15:40:47 3) Component(action, (List of InputPort)inputs,(List of OutputPort)outputs,(List of String)Params) 15:41:28 HT: Definition of a component in some implementation independent way 15:41:43 HT A step is a binding to a component 15:41:51 HT: A pipe is a connection from an orgin to a destination 15:42:44 HT: In order to specify a pipe, you need to know the name of the step and the name of the port for each connection 15:43:03 HT: Note that ports have constant names and all that need to have ad hoc names are steps 15:43:28 HT: All components should have standard names for their primary input and primary output 15:44:36 s/standard names/universal standard names/ 15:44:57 Norm: I think I hear consensus that we're going to take a stab at this by naming the endpoints that are bolted together. 15:45:14 I gave an XML syntax for this way of expressing it in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Apr/0119.html 15:48:39 topic: Issue 3118: Should an implementation of the language be allowed to perform caching? 15:48:49 ->http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3118 15:49:25 Absolutely 15:50:33 Norm: I propose that in light of our decision about the "functionality" of components, this is purely a quality-of-implementation issue 15:50:42 Accepted. 15:51:37 topic: Issue 3114: Are explicit dependencies required? 15:51:45 ->http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3114 15:53:51 Richard: I think there's a simple synch. mechansim: have a component that waits until it has received a whole document. 15:54:00 Richard: Then you use that component as input. 15:54:22 Richard: Suppose you wanted to stop an XSLT component from running until some document had been generated. Then you could not give it its stylesheet until that document was ready. 15:54:34 q+ 15:54:41 Richard: You could do that by passing the stylesheet through some component that waits until another document is fully written. 15:54:57 Murray: How is it going to do that? By checking that it exists and is closed? 15:55:16 Richard: I imagine that this is a special purpose component that reads the document. 15:55:49 Richard: The mechanism for sync. can probably be achieved by components in the pipeline. 15:55:54 ack alexmilowski 15:56:17 Alex: In some sense I agree that having input dependencies is a great way to do this. But that may be confusing to users. 15:56:30 Alex: But if we do synch. components then we have to deal with deadlock and other non-trivial issues. 15:57:54 Murray: It occurs to me that if we had a p:depends element that named an input and an output then we could describe the dependency 15:58:10 Murray: In addition to resolving the dependencies, it would provide an opportunity to rename things. 15:58:40 Topic: Face-to-face meeting 15:59:05 Murray: There's updated information on the page provided. In the comments section of the registration, please indicate how you planned to arrive and how you'd hope to travel. 15:59:21 Murray: I'll send suggestions for how to get from the airport to here. 15:59:40 Murray: This is a four-seasons resort area, so book rooms early. 16:00:55 HST has discharged his action 16:01:06 -Murray_Maloney 16:01:07 -rlopes 16:01:08 -Norm 16:01:09 -PGrosso 16:01:09 -Ht 16:01:11 -Alex_Milowski 16:01:12 -richard 16:01:14 -AndrewF 16:01:14 -Alessandro_Vernet 16:01:17 PGrosso has left #xproc 16:01:18 -Michael 16:01:19 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended 16:01:21 Attendees were Alessandro_Vernet, PGrosso, [IPcaller], Ht, rlopes, Norm, Michael, AndrewF, richard, Alex_Milowski, Murray_Maloney 16:01:24 ADJOURNED 16:01:28 alexmilowski has left #xproc 16:01:33 rrsagent, set logs member-visible 16:01:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:01:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/04-xproc-minutes.html Norm 16:04:59 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 16:05:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:05:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/04-xproc-minutes.html Norm 16:12:53 ht? 16:15:40 To send email about the abstract syntax 16:15:49 Ok, cool. 16:15:50 If you didn't give me an action, so much the better :-) 16:15:53 :-) 16:16:04 I wanted to ask about that for the minutes, so I'll cut-and-paste 16:20:51 hmm, ht, nothing here yet 16:20:53 can you paste it in? 16:21:15 stand by 16:22:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006May/0012.html 16:22:38 :-) 16:26:49 I hope that shows up eventually 16:56:02 rrsagent, bye 16:56:02 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/04-xproc-actions.rdf : 16:56:02 ACTION: Norm to create an issue for this [1] 16:56:02 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/04-xproc-irc#T15-29-04 16:56:02 ACTION: Alex to send mail describing his ideas about variables [2] 16:56:02 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/04-xproc-irc#T15-29-13 16:56:04 zakim, bye 16:56:04 Zakim has left #xproc