IRC log of xproc on 2006-05-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:02:05 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:02:07 [Zakim]
Norm, this was already XML_PMWG()11:00AM
15:02:07 [ht]
ht has joined #xproc
15:02:09 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; that matches XML_PMWG()11:00AM
15:02:16 [AndrewF]
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15:02:22 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
15:02:22 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
15:02:24 [Zakim]
15:02:27 [Norm]
zakim, what's the passcode?
15:02:27 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), Norm
15:02:50 [Zakim]
15:02:51 [MSM]
zakim, please call Michael-Office
15:02:51 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
15:02:52 [Zakim]
15:03:01 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:03:01 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
15:03:01 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
15:03:01 [Norm]
Date: 4 May 2006
15:03:01 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
15:03:02 [Norm]
15:03:32 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Alessandro_Vernet, PGrosso, rlopes, Ht, Norm, Michael
15:03:38 [Zakim]
15:03:45 [PGrosso]
[The noise always stops when you ask about it!]
15:03:45 [Norm]
zakim, ??P34 is AndrewF
15:03:45 [Zakim]
+AndrewF; got it
15:04:04 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Alessandro_Vernet, PGrosso, rlopes, Ht, Norm, Michael, AndrewF
15:05:28 [Norm]
Alessandro, are you expecting Erik today?
15:05:37 [richard]
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15:06:02 [Zakim]
15:06:06 [richard]
zakim, ? is richard
15:06:06 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
15:06:10 [Alessandro]
Norm, I don't expect to see Erik here today
15:06:20 [Norm]
15:07:07 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:07:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Alessandro_Vernet, PGrosso, rlopes, Ht, Norm, Michael, AndrewF, richard
15:07:41 [Norm]
Present: Alessandro, Andrew, Henry, Michael, Norman, Paul, Richard, Rui
15:07:49 [Norm]
Regrets: Erik, Mohamed
15:07:59 [Norm]
topic: Administrivia
15:08:12 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:08:12 [Norm]
15:08:18 [Norm]
15:08:22 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous teleconference?
15:08:22 [Norm]
15:08:29 [Norm]
15:08:35 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: 11 May telcon
15:08:35 [Norm]
Any regrets?
15:08:50 [Norm]
Andrew is on vacation 11, 18 May
15:08:59 [Norm]
Michael is away for 11, 18, 25 May
15:09:10 [Zakim]
15:09:13 [Norm]
Paul is away 11 May
15:09:19 [Norm]
Henry is away 18 May
15:09:32 [alexmilowski]
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15:09:33 [Norm]
Present: Alessandro, Andrew, Henry, Michael, Norman, Paul, Richard, Rui, Alex
15:09:56 [Norm]
Topic: Face-to-face meeting
15:10:07 [Norm]
15:10:39 [Norm]
Local arrangements:
15:11:41 [Norm]
That's the beginnings of a local arrangements page, more details to follow
15:11:59 [Norm]
Topic: Open action items
15:12:29 [Norm]
A-18-01 is continued
15:12:49 [Norm]
A-17-02 is in progress
15:13:39 [Norm]
A-13-01 is continued
15:14:10 [Norm]
New ETA: 15 June 2006
15:14:42 [Norm]
Topic: Issue 3113: Does the pipeline engine act as a resource manager?
15:14:52 [Norm]
15:15:27 [Norm]
Richard: I posted a couple of messages today, but looking at the example the email was talking about: XSLT importing a document produce somewhere else.
15:15:35 [Norm]
Richard: This is a conventional temporary file problem
15:16:04 [Norm]
Richard: Simply store things in files with generated names and then convey that name elsewhere.
15:16:34 [Zakim]
15:16:57 [Norm]
Richard: There are other examples, such as XIncluding things.
15:17:09 [Norm]
Richard: You can simply transform the documents to refer to the generated file names.
15:18:07 [Norm]
Richard: As a concrete proposal for the temporary file system; I suggest a component that takes a document as input, stores it somewhere, and returns the URI that it used.
15:18:17 [Norm]
Alex: Do we have to do anything about this?
15:20:07 [Norm]
Norm: I don't think consensus is moving towards support for this proposal
15:20:24 [Norm]
HT: We'll need to spec quite carefully our story about pipeline parameters, variables, and their relationship to component and step variables.
15:20:43 [Norm]
HT: We've been postponing that for some time. But to make the workarounds work most gracefully, that mechanism is going to have to be there.
15:21:06 [Norm]
Proposal: No, the pipeline engine is not required to act as a resource manager.
15:21:32 [Norm]
15:22:09 [Norm]
Norm asks HT to expand on his pipeline/parameter variable story
15:22:44 [Norm]
HT: Consider that I want to do something like this: take the output of Richards write input to temp file component and mediate between that and a component that will substitute the value into a document.
15:23:12 [Norm]
HT: I have a general purpose component that has two parameters, an XPath and a string. Wherever the XPath matches, it replaces what it finds with the string.
15:23:30 [Norm]
HT: The obvious thing to do is set the value of attributes or the text content of elements.
15:23:52 [Norm]
HT: Now I can get very close to doing the XInclude example if only I can get the result of Richards temporary component into a variable so that I can get it into a parameter.
15:24:02 [Zakim]
15:24:26 [alexmilowski]
15:24:37 [Norm]
HT: That's appealing to some fairly natural concepts of pipeline variables and ways of using pipeline variables to supply component parameters
15:24:37 [MSM]
zakim, please call Michael-Office
15:24:38 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
15:24:39 [Zakim]
15:25:06 [Norm]
ack Alessandro
15:25:12 [Norm]
ack alexmilowski
15:25:51 [Norm]
Alex: I wanted to second what Henry said. This is an important use case for lots of piplines I've built. I need to be able to bind to variables in a uniform way and be able to point into documents and update them.
15:26:00 [Norm]
Alex: Deleting whole subtrees is an example.
15:26:22 [Norm]
Alex: Renaming elements and attributes, namespaces, etc.
15:27:39 [Norm]
Norm: I think it's important to make sure that we get the framework right to support all the kinds of components that we need.
15:28:57 [richard]
15:29:04 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to create an issue for this
15:29:13 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to send mail describing his ideas about variables
15:29:15 [Norm]
ack richard
15:29:37 [Norm]
Richard: I wanted to mention a relationship between variable mechanisms and one of the issues that came up with the resource manager issue.
15:29:54 [Norm]
Richard: If some component writes something to a temporary file, it's important that a component consuming it not try to read it before it's done.
15:30:14 [Norm]
Richard: Using a variable to communicate the location of the temporary files gives you a mechanism for managing that.
15:30:42 [Norm]
Richard: If a component can't start before the variable is set, then the process is managed by that variable.
15:31:22 [Norm]
Richard: You might use variables for other kinds of synchronization as well if we did that.
15:32:04 [Norm]
Norm: From the end of this discussion last week, how do we identify the inputs and outputs. By naming the endpoints or the things that flow through the pipe.
15:32:36 [Norm]
Norm: From the list, I think consensus is moving towards identifying the end points.
15:32:37 [alexmilowski]
15:33:13 [Norm]
HT: Having worked for a while with the alternative, I think this is the right thing to do but we need to live with it for a while.
15:33:31 [Norm]
HT: It's not as immediately obvious what a graceful surface syntax is going to be.
15:33:38 [Norm]
s/obvious/obvious to see/
15:33:42 [Norm]
ack alexmilowski
15:34:01 [Norm]
Alex: Internally, this is the right model. I'm just not convinced that there aren't cases where there are implicit connections to happen.
15:34:18 [Norm]
Alex: But I'm willing to push that off to the future.
15:34:38 [Norm]
HT: Absolutely.
15:35:21 [Norm]
HT: You don't want to see any of the low-level stuff at the authoring level
15:35:52 [Norm]
Richard: Abbreviation still leaves the question of what to do for the low-level syntax.
15:36:28 [Norm]
Richard: Recall that there are two ways to do this: by having names on each input/output or by naming the steps and having standard names for the inputs/outputs on each component
15:36:45 [Norm]
Alex: We can work on the shortcuts after we have a full syntax.
15:37:29 [Norm]
Richard: I think you're basically right. There's an obvious back-door into a resource manager if you give all the inputs/outputs names that are URIs.
15:38:48 [ht]
Unabbreviated abstract syntax consists of 1) pipe((OutputPort)origin, (InputPort)destination);
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15:39:26 [ht]
2) step((Component)component,(List of Param)params);
15:39:53 [Norm]
Norm expresses some concern about readability of a naming scheme that relies on knowledge of the underlying component input/output names.
15:40:02 [ht]
15:40:47 [ht]
3) Component(action, (List of InputPort)inputs,(List of OutputPort)outputs,(List of String)Params)
15:41:28 [Norm]
HT: Definition of a component in some implementation independent way
15:41:43 [Norm]
HT A step is a binding to a component
15:41:51 [Norm]
HT: A pipe is a connection from an orgin to a destination
15:42:44 [Norm]
HT: In order to specify a pipe, you need to know the name of the step and the name of the port for each connection
15:43:03 [Norm]
HT: Note that ports have constant names and all that need to have ad hoc names are steps
15:43:28 [Norm]
HT: All components should have standard names for their primary input and primary output
15:44:36 [ht]
s/standard names/universal standard names/
15:44:57 [Norm]
Norm: I think I hear consensus that we're going to take a stab at this by naming the endpoints that are bolted together.
15:45:14 [richard]
I gave an XML syntax for this way of expressing it in
15:48:39 [Norm]
topic: Issue 3118: Should an implementation of the language be allowed to perform caching?
15:48:49 [Norm]
15:49:25 [Alessandro]
15:50:33 [Norm]
Norm: I propose that in light of our decision about the "functionality" of components, this is purely a quality-of-implementation issue
15:50:42 [Norm]
15:51:37 [Norm]
topic: Issue 3114: Are explicit dependencies required?
15:51:45 [Norm]
15:53:51 [Norm]
Richard: I think there's a simple synch. mechansim: have a component that waits until it has received a whole document.
15:54:00 [Norm]
Richard: Then you use that component as input.
15:54:22 [Norm]
Richard: Suppose you wanted to stop an XSLT component from running until some document had been generated. Then you could not give it its stylesheet until that document was ready.
15:54:34 [alexmilowski]
15:54:41 [Norm]
Richard: You could do that by passing the stylesheet through some component that waits until another document is fully written.
15:54:57 [Norm]
Murray: How is it going to do that? By checking that it exists and is closed?
15:55:16 [Norm]
Richard: I imagine that this is a special purpose component that reads the document.
15:55:49 [Norm]
Richard: The mechanism for sync. can probably be achieved by components in the pipeline.
15:55:54 [Norm]
ack alexmilowski
15:56:17 [Norm]
Alex: In some sense I agree that having input dependencies is a great way to do this. But that may be confusing to users.
15:56:30 [Norm]
Alex: But if we do synch. components then we have to deal with deadlock and other non-trivial issues.
15:57:54 [Norm]
Murray: It occurs to me that if we had a p:depends element that named an input and an output then we could describe the dependency
15:58:10 [Norm]
Murray: In addition to resolving the dependencies, it would provide an opportunity to rename things.
15:58:40 [Norm]
Topic: Face-to-face meeting
15:59:05 [Norm]
Murray: There's updated information on the page provided. In the comments section of the registration, please indicate how you planned to arrive and how you'd hope to travel.
15:59:21 [Norm]
Murray: I'll send suggestions for how to get from the airport to here.
15:59:40 [Norm]
Murray: This is a four-seasons resort area, so book rooms early.
16:00:55 [ht]
HST has discharged his action
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16:01:17 [PGrosso]
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XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Alessandro_Vernet, PGrosso, [IPcaller], Ht, rlopes, Norm, Michael, AndrewF, richard, Alex_Milowski, Murray_Maloney
16:01:24 [Norm]
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16:01:33 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs member-visible
16:01:42 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
16:04:59 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:05:04 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
16:12:53 [Norm]
16:15:40 [ht]
To send email about the abstract syntax
16:15:49 [Norm]
Ok, cool.
16:15:50 [ht]
If you didn't give me an action, so much the better :-)
16:15:53 [Norm]
16:16:04 [Norm]
I wanted to ask about that for the minutes, so I'll cut-and-paste
16:20:51 [Norm]
hmm, ht, nothing here yet
16:20:53 [Norm]
can you paste it in?
16:21:15 [ht]
stand by
16:22:33 [ht]
16:22:38 [ht]
16:26:49 [Norm]
I hope that shows up eventually
16:56:02 [Norm]
rrsagent, bye
16:56:02 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
16:56:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Norm to create an issue for this [1]
16:56:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:56:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alex to send mail describing his ideas about variables [2]
16:56:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:56:04 [Norm]
zakim, bye
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