14:51:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:51:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/02-rif-irc
14:51:37 <ChrisW> zakim, this is rif
14:51:37 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; that matches SW_RIF()11:00AM
14:51:37 <cgi-irc> cgi-irc has joined #rif
14:51:58 <sandro> rrsagent, make record public
14:52:03 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:52:07 <sandro> rrsagent, make minutes
14:52:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/02-rif-minutes.html sandro
14:52:23 <sandro> rrsagent, make record public
14:52:40 <ChrisW> rrsagent, bake me a cake as fast as you can
14:52:40 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'bake me a cake as fast as you can', ChrisW.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:52:55 <cgi-irc> cgi-irc has joined #rif
14:53:00 <sandro> rrsagent, pour me a hot bath
14:53:00 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'pour me a hot bath', sandro.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:54:21 <pfps> pfps has joined #rif
14:54:28 <cgi-irc> cgi-irc has joined #rif
14:55:02 <MarkusK> MarkusK has joined #rif
14:56:01 <FrankMcCabe> FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
14:56:31 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
14:56:47 <Donald_Chapin> Donald_Chapin has joined #rif
14:57:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
14:57:20 <AlexKozlenkov> AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif
14:57:54 <Zakim> +[Fujitsu]
14:58:04 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, fujitsu is me
14:58:05 <Zakim> +FrankMcCabe; got it
14:58:16 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:58:17 <Zakim> +David_Hirtle
14:58:21 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
14:58:22 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
14:58:44 <josb> josb has joined #rif
14:58:47 <Zakim> +[LMU]
14:58:51 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
14:59:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
14:59:09 <Allen> Allen has joined #rif
14:59:12 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
14:59:16 <Zakim> +??P8
14:59:20 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
14:59:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P25, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro, DavidHirtle, PaulaP (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), ??P8
14:59:34 <pfps> zakim, ??P8 is me
14:59:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see Allen, josb, AxelPolleres, DaveReynolds, AlexKozlenkov, LeoraMorgenstern, Donald_Chapin, FrankMcCabe, MarkusK, pfps, Harold, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW, Hassan,
14:59:40 <Zakim> ... DavidHirtle, PaulaP, Francois, mdean, sandro, Keeper
14:59:42 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
14:59:43 <sandro> zakim, ??P25 is Francoise
14:59:46 <Zakim> +[DERI]
14:59:47 <sandro> zakim, ??P25 is Francois
14:59:50 <Zakim> +Francoise; got it
14:59:52 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
14:59:56 <Zakim> I already had ??P25 as Francoise, sandro
15:00:00 <Zakim> +Allen_Ginsberg
15:00:00 <sandro> Zakim, Francoise is Francois
15:00:04 <Zakim> -Allen_Ginsberg
15:00:09 <sandro> zakim, mute Francois
15:00:10 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:00:12 <Zakim> +Francois; got it
15:00:22 <Zakim> Francois should now be muted
15:00:23 <igor> igor has joined #rif
15:00:24 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:00:36 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:37 <ChrisW> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:00:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:00:55 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:00:58 <Allen> zakim, mute me
15:01:02 <FrancoisBry> FrancoisBry has joined #rif
15:01:05 <Zakim> +Allen_Ginsberg
15:01:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:23 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:01:24 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:01:29 <Zakim> +??P34
15:01:33 <Zakim> +Igor_Mozetic
15:01:33 <igor> zakim, mute me
15:01:49 <Zakim> Igor_Mozetic should now be muted
15:01:51 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AxelPolleres (14%), ??P34 (92%)
15:02:26 <Zakim> -??P34
15:02:33 <FrancoisBry> zakim ??P25 is me
15:02:40 <JosDeRoo> JosDeRoo has joined #rif
15:02:42 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:55 <FrancoisBry> zakim please mute me
15:02:55 <Zakim> +??P17
15:02:58 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P17)
15:03:05 <pfps> but can you sing along?  :-)
15:03:06 <sandro> FrancoisBry, you'll need to say "Zakim, Francois is me".
15:03:10 <Donald_Chapin> zakim, mute me
15:03:11 <Zakim> sorry, Donald_Chapin, I do not see a party named 'Donald_Chapin'
15:03:16 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:03:16 <FrancoisBry> zakim Francois is me
15:03:21 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
15:03:26 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (49%), ChrisW (27%)
15:03:27 <sandro> You need the comma, FrancoisBry.
15:03:37 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (5%), [IPcaller] (43%), ChrisW (10%)
15:03:41 <FrancoisBry> zakim, Francois is me
15:03:41 <Zakim> +FrancoisBry; got it
15:03:49 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:03:53 <FrancoisBry> zakim, please mute me.
15:03:55 <Zakim> FrancoisBry was already muted, FrancoisBry
15:04:17 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
15:04:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrancoisBry (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro, DavidHirtle, PaulaP (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), pfps, josb (muted), Harold, ChrisW,
15:04:27 <Deborah_Nichols> Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:04:32 <Zakim> ... MarkusK (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), AxelPolleres (muted), Igor_Mozetic (muted), Dave_Reynolds (muted)
15:04:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see JosDeRoo, FrancoisBry, igor, Allen, josb, AxelPolleres, DaveReynolds, AlexKozlenkov, LeoraMorgenstern, Donald_Chapin, FrankMcCabe, MarkusK, pfps, Harold, RRSAgent,
15:04:41 <Zakim> ... Zakim, ChrisW, Hassan, DavidHirtle, PaulaP, mdean, sandro, Keeper
15:04:47 <Zakim> +??P13
15:04:52 <AlexKozlenkov> AlexKozlenkov joined
15:04:52 <AlexKozlenkov> AlexKozlenkov joined
15:04:59 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:05:03 <johnhall> johnhall has joined #rif
15:05:05 <Zakim> +Deborah_Nichols
15:05:48 <igor> igor has joined #rif
15:05:55 <AlexKozlenkov> yes I am
15:05:55 <AlexKozlenkov> yes I am
15:06:06 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:10 <Zakim> +??P43
15:06:16 <johnhall> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:06:16 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
15:06:27 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:06:27 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:06:39 <Donald_Chapin> zakim P43 is me
15:06:42 <AlexKozlenkov> AlexKozlenkov zakim joined
15:06:45 <ChrisW> zakim, ??p13 is alexKozlenkov
15:06:45 <Zakim> +alexKozlenkov; got it
15:06:55 <Donald_Chapin> zakim, p43 is me
15:06:55 <Zakim> sorry, Donald_Chapin, I do not recognize a party named 'p43'
15:07:04 <sandro> Zakim, ??P42 is Donald_Chapin
15:07:04 <Zakim> I already had ??P42 as johnhall, sandro
15:07:10 <Zakim> + +87362aaaa
15:07:11 <sandro> Zakim, ??P43 is Donald_Chapin
15:07:11 <Zakim> +Donald_Chapin; got it
15:07:15 <Zakim> +??P45
15:07:20 <SaidTabet> SaidTabet has joined #RIF
15:07:27 <Donald_Chapin> zakim, mute me
15:07:27 <Zakim> Donald_Chapin should now be muted
15:07:38 <sandro> Zakim, alexKozlenkov is AlexKozlenkov 
15:07:38 <Zakim> +AlexKozlenkov; got it
15:07:53 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
15:07:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrancoisBry (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro, DavidHirtle, PaulaP (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), pfps, josb (muted), Harold, ChrisW,
15:07:57 <Zakim> ... MarkusK (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), AxelPolleres (muted), Igor_Mozetic (muted), Dave_Reynolds (muted), AlexKozlenkov, Mike_Dean, Deborah_Nichols (muted), johnhall (muted),
15:08:01 <Zakim> ... Donald_Chapin (muted), +87362aaaa, JosDeRoo
15:08:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see SaidTabet, igor, johnhall, Deborah_Nichols, JosDeRoo, FrancoisBry, Allen, josb, AxelPolleres, DaveReynolds, AlexKozlenkov, LeoraMorgenstern, Donald_Chapin,
15:08:11 <Zakim> ... FrankMcCabe, MarkusK, pfps, Harold, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW, Hassan, DavidHirtle, PaulaP, mdean, sandro, Keeper
15:08:27 <mdean> Scribe:  Mike Dean
15:08:31 <mdean> ScribeNick: mdean
15:08:51 <mdean> Topic: Admin
15:08:57 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/att-0112/01-part
15:09:16 <mdean> RESOLVED:  accept minutes
15:09:26 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/att-0120/18-rif-minutes.html
15:09:47 <mdean> includes revisions based on comments
15:09:52 <mdean> RESOLVED:  accepted
15:09:55 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/
15:10:14 <mdean> now have an action tracker - will now be used for tracking actions
15:10:40 <PaulV> PaulV has joined #rif
15:11:13 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:12:03 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:12:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrancoisBry (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro, DavidHirtle, PaulaP (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), pfps, josb (muted), Harold, ChrisW,
15:12:07 <Zakim> ... MarkusK (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), AxelPolleres (muted), Igor_Mozetic (muted), Dave_Reynolds (muted), AlexKozlenkov, Mike_Dean, Deborah_Nichols (muted), johnhall (muted),
15:12:10 <Zakim> ... Donald_Chapin (muted), +87362aaaa, JosDeRoo (muted)
15:12:11 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
15:12:58 <Zakim> + +353121781aabb
15:13:07 <sandro> zakim, +87362aaaa is Christian
15:13:07 <Zakim> +Christian; got it
15:13:17 <mdean> pfps:  bug in action tracker:  actions can have no topics
15:13:35 <mdean> ... e.g. action ID 1
15:13:50 <mdean> ... precludes actions by topic
15:14:00 <mdean> Chair:  ChrisW
15:14:10 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, unmute me
15:14:10 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
15:14:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
15:14:24 <sandro> zakim, ack 
15:14:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'ack', sandro
15:14:27 <mdean> Leora:  still working on actions 1 and 2
15:14:30 <sandro> ack +87362aaaa
15:14:32 <sandro> ack LeoraMorgenstern 
15:14:45 <mdean> Leora:  questions on FOL
15:14:56 <mdean> ChrisW:  defer discussion to later in agenda
15:15:10 <mdean> Sandro:  actions 3, 4, 6 continued
15:15:22 <LeoraMorgenstern> mdean, not questions on FOL, questions on what we'd like in the draft proposal for FOL
15:15:26 <mdean> csma:  action 9 and 10 continued
15:15:50 <mdean> ChrisW:  any amendments to agenda?
15:16:46 <sandro> Zakim, +353121781aabb is PaulVincent
15:16:46 <Zakim> +PaulVincent; got it
15:16:48 <mdean> ChrisW:  no
15:16:55 <mdean> Topic:  F2F meetings
15:17:18 <mdean> Sandro:  tomorrow is deadline for signing up for bus from airport
15:17:22 <PaulaP> no news
15:17:25 <sandro> REMINDER: TOMORROW IS THE DEADLINE FOR SIGNING UP FOR THE AIRPORT BUS
15:17:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:17:37 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:17:37 <mdean> Topic:  F2F 4
15:17:46 <mdean> ChrisW:  poll is now closed
15:18:25 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38457/f2f4dates/results
15:19:06 <sandro> 5-6 October, McLean, Virginia, US - MITRE Proposal 	5 	1 	5 	4 	4 	2
15:19:06 <sandro> 16-17 October, McLean, Virginia, US - MITRE Proposal 	4 	4 	3 	1 	7 	2
15:19:06 <sandro> 2-3 November, McLean, Virginia, US - MITRE Proposal 	2 	4 	4 	3 	7 	1
15:19:06 <sandro> 4-5 November, Athens, Georgia, US - At ISWC 		1 	4 	6 	10 	
15:19:45 <mdean> ChrisW:  10 prefer ISWC colocation, 6 second highest - nobody objects - looks like clear favorite
15:20:08 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:20:39 <mdean> csma:  do not have clear local organizer
15:20:51 <PaulaP> how about funding?
15:20:52 <mdean> pfps:  volunteered to handle local arrangements
15:21:15 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:21:16 <mdean> ... or at least contact and interface with conference center
15:21:50 <mdean> ChrisW:  this will require each attendee to register and pay registration fee
15:22:05 <mdean> ... will accept credit cards
15:22:23 <mdean> ACTION (pfps):  set up page with information
15:22:53 <mdean> ChrisW:  email from Daniel Schwabe regarding arrangements for iswc
15:23:17 <mdean> pfps:  aware of at least 2 options for accepting credit cards
15:23:52 <mdean> ChrisW:  tutorials start on the 5th - workshops still not decided (1 day only)
15:24:12 <sandro> q- PaulVincent
15:24:23 <mdean> ... conference dates are correct - tutorials on Nov 5, not Nov 4
15:24:44 <mdean> RESOLVED:  f2f4 at ISWC
15:24:47 <AlexKozlenkov> how much is the registration fee?
15:25:02 <PaulaP> +1
15:25:03 <mdean> ChrisW:  thanks to mitre folks for nice proposal - will consider for future meetings
15:25:09 <sandro> +1 thanks for MITRE for their offier!
15:25:18 <AxelPolleres> +1 (for csma and me ;-) )
15:25:20 <sandro> topic: Liasons
15:25:28 <mdean> Topic:  liaisons
15:25:37 <mdean> ChrisW:  status of SPARQL?
15:25:52 <mdean> Sandro:  up in the air - Semantic Web Activity reorg hasn't happened yet
15:25:59 <JosDeRoo> it is PR
15:26:28 <josb> candidate
15:26:29 <mdean> ... SPARQL may be at CR for a while
15:26:33 <josb> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/
15:27:12 <mdean> ChrisW:  XQuery/XPath?
15:27:33 <mdean> ChrisW:  CL in ISO equivalent of Last Call
15:27:42 <mdean> ChrisW:  PRR?
15:27:50 <mdean> csma:  recent meeting
15:28:15 <mdean> Paul:  csma should have good presentation at F2F - hope to have update for F2F
15:28:17 <Donald_Chapin> Nothing new
15:28:21 <mdean> ChrisW:  SBVR?
15:28:34 <mdean> ChrisW:  ODM?
15:28:35 <JosDeRoo> re SPARQL http://www.w3.org/News/2006#x20060406a
15:28:58 <mdean> ... presentation at OMG meeting - in OMG equivalent of Last Call
15:29:06 <mdean> Topic:  Use Cases and Requirements
15:29:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim,  please unmute me
15:29:14 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
15:29:24 <mdean> ChrisW:  Leora questions on actions
15:29:43 <mdean> Leora:  what do we mean by FOL?
15:29:57 <mdean> ... specify requirements not syntax
15:30:17 <mdean> ... but some syntax needed for examples
15:30:35 <mdean> ... Question 2:  should we just use Common Logic?
15:30:52 <sandro> q+ to say Any FOL, and not CL
15:31:03 <mdean> ChrisW:  question previously raised by Michael
15:31:10 <mdean> ChrisW:  CL is fine
15:31:26 <mdean> ... may add or subtract features as necessary
15:31:48 <josb> how is CL the standard for RDF?
15:31:49 <mdean> Leora:  will start with CL
15:32:20 <josb> q+
15:32:46 <mdean> Sandro:  some concerns about differences between CL and FOL from Peter?
15:32:52 <mdean> pfps:  don't know
15:33:09 <FrankMcCabe> q+
15:33:22 <sandro> ack sandro
15:33:22 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say Any FOL, and not CL
15:33:42 <Zakim> + +1.617.699.aacc
15:33:48 <mdean> pfps:  RDF is based on non-standard FOL that shares some features with underlying semantics of CL
15:33:51 <sandro> Peter: RDF is based on a non-standard view of FOL, which it shares with CL
15:34:00 <SaidTabet> zakim, +1.617.699.aacc is me
15:34:00 <Zakim> +SaidTabet; got it
15:34:11 <mdean> ChrisW:  no standard FOL other than CL
15:34:35 <sandro> q+ to suggest there are FOL standards, eg TPTP
15:34:36 <mdean> ... CL designed to be very flexible, and allows fragments
15:34:55 <FrancoisBry> +q
15:34:59 <mdean> ChrisW:  start with CL, get refinement from WG - can narrow if needed
15:35:00 <FrancoisBry> q+
15:35:10 <ChrisW> q?
15:35:12 <josb> ack me
15:35:35 <mdean> josb:  what is motivation for using CL?
15:35:51 <mdean> ... why diverge from textbook definitions
15:36:34 <mdean> ... can substitute symbols as needed for web
15:37:31 <mdean> pfps:  CL is not yet an ISO standard
15:37:39 <FrancoisBry> q-
15:37:46 <ChrisW> q?
15:38:01 <mdean> Leora:  can use vanilla FOL and CL and then pick
15:38:12 <sandro> q-
15:38:13 <mdean> Sandro:  pick vanilla FOL that works with some theorem prover
15:38:36 <mdean> Frank:  disagree that you can't define FOL without syntax
15:38:41 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
15:38:46 <mdean> ... enumerate features
15:39:08 <mdean> ... versions of CL have been in standards process for almost a decade
15:39:26 <mdean> ... why do we need to define FOL if it's not on our roadmap?
15:39:26 <sandro> (Note syntax for TPTP which is a sort of de-facto FOL interchange format, tptp.org
15:39:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> q-
15:39:38 <josb> Some textbook:
15:39:43 <FrankMcCabe> q-
15:39:52 <mdean> ChrisW:  stop discussion - group can respond to Leora's action
15:39:52 <josb> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0387942580/qid=1146584341/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-3762612-0543939?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
15:39:59 <josb> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0122384520/qid=1146584361/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-3762612-0543939?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
15:40:06 <josb> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0387945938/qid=1146584328/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-3762612-0543939?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
15:40:21 <mdean> Leora:  describe critical success factor
15:40:21 <FrancoisBry> FrancoisBry has joined #rif
15:40:26 <josb> s/textbook/textbooks which define FOL/
15:40:43 <mdean> ... confused by new document from Paula
15:40:54 <mdean> ... what is CSF for FOL?
15:41:52 <mdean> csma:  earlier discussion about whether FOL is CSF or requirement
15:41:54 <PaulaP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Towards_a_Rule_Interchange_Format%3A_Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors%2C_Requirements
15:42:05 <PaulaP> here FOL is a requirement
15:42:09 <mdean> ... if requirement, need to identify CSF on which it depends
15:42:39 <mdean> ChrisW:  a little vague - needs to be clarified
15:42:58 <ChrisW> q>
15:42:59 <mdean> PaulP:  got it
15:43:00 <ChrisW> q?
15:43:23 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Towards_a_Rule_Interchange_Format%3A_Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors%2C_Requirements
15:43:25 <mdean> Topic:  CSF Goals and Requirements from Paula
15:43:45 <FrankMcCabe> q+
15:44:01 <SaidTabet> zakim, mute me
15:44:01 <Zakim> SaidTabet should now be muted
15:44:02 <mdean> ChrisW:  published Friday, not extensive time to review
15:44:26 <mdean> Frank:  interesting list, but didn't meet Frank's requirements
15:44:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:44:28 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:44:48 <mdean> ... most of list is technical requirements about product
15:45:12 <mdean> ... for CSF, consider whether you addressing builder of spec or users
15:45:20 <mdean> ... too much internal, not enough external
15:45:25 <mdean> ... wrote own CSFs
15:45:49 <mdean> ... goal:  wide scale adoption
15:45:59 <mdean> ... CSF:  relevant to users
15:46:05 <mdean> ... not FOL or whatever
15:46:10 <ChrisW> Frank's list: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors_and_Requirements
15:46:25 <mdean> ... may have subrequirements
15:46:40 <mdean> ... e.g. support for production rules
15:47:08 <FrancoisBry> Is the difference between 'critical sucess factor' and 'requirement' worth being discussed at length? 
15:47:37 <mdean> ... may well have multiple? CSFs
15:47:48 <PaulaP> q+ 
15:47:49 <mdean> ... try not to pre-guess solutions
15:48:11 <mdean> ... Paul's list nice as requirements, but not CSFs
15:49:05 <DavidHirtle> s/Paul's/Paula's
15:49:20 <mdean> ... want to avoid confusion soundness and completeness
15:49:35 <mdean> ... write from customer's point of view
15:50:13 <Hassan> I agree with Frank that ultimately, RIF's success will depend on its usability
15:50:52 <mdean> ... would add Paula's requirements to this list, linking to use cases important, desiderata are also nice
15:51:35 <ChrisW> q?
15:51:40 <mdean> ... borrowed some from Paula, but somewhat different style
15:51:44 <ChrisW> ack frank
15:51:46 <ChrisW> ack paula
15:51:58 <mdean> Paula:  wide-scale adoption implied by expressiveness
15:52:08 <mdean> ... sounds a bit too general
15:52:17 <mdean> ... applicable to all W3C work not just RIF
15:52:51 <mdean> Frank:  good point, but could see situation where someone has a tantrum saying feature X must bein RIF
15:53:18 <mdean> ... how does the group semi-rationally decide on including that feature in RIF?
15:53:44 <mdean> ... strong basis:  if too expensive or nobody understands it
15:53:59 <sandro> q>
15:54:01 <sandro> q?
15:54:05 <mdean> ... motherhood and apple pie, but useful as background to reinforce future discussions
15:54:20 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:54:24 <mdean> ... [explanation of motherhood and apple pie]
15:54:39 <sandro> "motherhood" and "apple pie" are, idiomatically, things which are so good that no one would ever argue against them.
15:55:02 <mdean> ... cost of implementation is important consideration
15:55:20 <DaveReynolds> ack me
15:55:29 <Hassan> Frank's making sense to me ...
15:56:07 <mdean> Dave:  ... [missed it - sorry]
15:56:51 <mdean> ChrisW:  goal 1 identical
15:56:55 <sandro> Dave: Frank's "1.2 Widescale Adoption" includes much of what I said in my e-mail to Paula
15:57:06 <mdean> ... expressiveness is way to achieve widescale adoption
15:57:31 <mdean> ... consistency with W3C specs important goal for RIF
15:57:57 <ChrisW> q?
15:57:59 <mdean> ... would like to see more discussion at goal level
15:58:28 <mdean> csma:  Paula's goal equivalent to Dave Reynold's interchanges can be meaning preserving
15:58:52 <ChrisW> DaveR's proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/0005
15:59:08 <mdean> ... what is perceived difference between Dave's proposal for foundation and Frank's compatibility with W3C standards?
15:59:23 <mdean> Sandro:  pretty similar - perhaps W3C standards and vision
15:59:38 <mdean> ... include things that other Working Group have hinted at
15:59:46 <mdean> ... middle ground - may be too nebulous
15:59:53 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:59:59 <DaveReynolds> ack me
16:00:01 <mdean> ... comments from group?
16:00:40 <mdean> Dave:  isn't this covered by logic preserving?
16:01:07 <mdean> ... semantics preserving and conformance covered under rule exchange
16:01:30 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:01:31 <DavidHirtle> q+
16:01:36 <mdean> ChrisW:  what about extensibility?
16:02:01 <PaulaP> +1 to Chris' comment on conformance
16:02:04 <mdean> ... not just about sound, but anticipating different extensions
16:02:10 <ChrisW> q?
16:02:15 <mdean> s/sound/soundness/
16:03:10 <PaulaP> q+
16:03:12 <mdean> Hirtle:  perhaps need more goals - OWL had 8
16:04:02 <mdean> Paula:  need concrete goals, CSFs, and requirements
16:04:23 <DavidHirtle> one other thing: "Level of expressiveness" doesn't much sound like a goal, but I'm sure it could be rephrased
16:04:27 <Hassan> q+
16:04:34 <PaulaP> q-
16:04:39 <mdean> Frank:  trying to avoid prejudging the outcome - focus on problem
16:04:41 <DavidHirtle> q-
16:04:56 <mdean> ... somewhat fuzzy, but otherwise get lost in weeds
16:05:02 <FrancoisBry> What are your "right questions", Frank????
16:06:03 <mdean> csma:  covering production rules is probably too fuzzy
16:06:17 <Uli> Uli has joined #rif
16:06:23 <mdean> ... concrete version would be like concrete syntax for PRR
16:06:51 <DavidHirtle> (for comparison, OWL's goals: http://www.w3.org/TR/webont-req/#section-goals)
16:06:53 <mdean> Frank:  working with Paula - views are complementary and can be merged into 1
16:06:59 <Zakim> -SaidTabet
16:07:02 <mdean> ... hoping to merge
16:07:19 <PaulaP> q?
16:07:27 <mdean> csma:  statement requirements in such a way that they are useful for design
16:07:43 <ChrisW> ack hassan
16:07:55 <sandro> I wonder if it's time to have Frank and Paula go off and come up with a consensus document between them?     Do they have enough guidance from us?
16:07:55 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:08:12 <sandro> (Or do they need a 3rd?)
16:08:14 <mdean> Hassan:  also don't see contradiction - external usage is important
16:08:55 <sandro> q?
16:08:59 <mdean> ... reduce search space
16:09:25 <mdean> ... willing to help if needed
16:09:25 <DaveReynolds> ack me
16:09:39 <Hassan> q-
16:09:40 <mdean> Dave:  quite a few are compatible
16:10:05 <mdean> ... but emphasis on simplicity vs. specificity
16:10:20 <Hassan> It will require work
16:10:23 <mdean> ... trivial merge loses criteria for specific expressivity requirements
16:11:02 <mdean> Frank:  buy-in from everybody needed as we progress
16:11:12 <mdean> ... some requirements may not fit into overall picture
16:11:32 <mdean> csma:  need more complete picture
16:11:42 <mdean> ... to identify incompatibilities
16:11:47 <Zakim> +??P7
16:12:09 <Uli> zakim, ??P7 is uli
16:12:09 <Zakim> +uli; got it
16:12:27 <mdean> ChrisW:  can Frank and Paula agree on goals?
16:12:32 <mdean> ... without requirements for now
16:13:09 <mdean> Sandro:  also include requirements that have been discussed
16:13:27 <mdean> ChrisW:  agree first on initial set of goals
16:14:20 <mdean> ACTION (Frank, Paula):  propose goals - within next couple days if possible - for discussion next week
16:14:36 <mdean> Topic:  Technical Design
16:14:42 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/0068.html
16:15:15 <mdean> Chris:  design for extensibility
16:15:30 <mdean> ... out for over a week
16:16:04 <mdean> csma:  like the proposal quite a lot - authors did a good job
16:16:22 <mdean> ... orthogonal to extensibility mechanism - could be complemented by it
16:16:41 <mdean> ... staging design
16:16:47 <Hassan> q+
16:17:05 <mdean> ... extensibility should also be discussed
16:17:11 <sandro> Frank/Paula goal recorded as http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/actions/11
16:17:22 <mdean> ChrisW:  doesn't provide extensibility
16:18:03 <ChrisW> ack hassan
16:18:25 <mdean> Hassan:  like grammar-based, family of languages approach
16:18:34 <Harold> q+
16:18:40 <mdean> ... achieve extensions by adding new (composible) grammar rules
16:18:48 <Hassan> q-
16:18:49 <ChrisW> ack harold
16:19:07 <mdean> Harold:  discussion 2 months ago:  modular extensions not appropriate for logic
16:19:16 <mdean> ... different than programming languages
16:19:28 <MichaelKifer> q+
16:19:32 <mdean> s/logic/layers of logic languages/
16:19:57 <mdean> ... some ideas for adding negation, etc.
16:20:11 <mdean> csma:  extension mechanism should be added or clarified
16:20:36 <sandro> Harold -- there are two kinds of programming language extensions -- in unix Volume 2 and Volume 3.   Volume 3 are just more C code and anyone could do -- they do not add expressive power.   Volume 2 require system changes -- they do add expressive power.
16:21:10 <FrancoisBry> Xor is good for bewtter expression and better processing. 
16:21:44 <mdean> Kifer:  hint at extensibility mechanism in taxonomy of semantic and syntactic features
16:23:53 <Uli> where would this attribute be attached to?
16:23:56 <ChrisW> q?
16:24:02 <MichaelKifer> q-
16:24:03 <ChrisW> ack michael
16:24:24 <mdean> Hassan:  how are we proceeding with this idea?
16:24:43 <mdean> ChrisW:  discussing, silence generally interpreted as agreement
16:25:08 <mdean> ... discuss via email, will add to agenda next week
16:25:32 <mdean> ... seem to be moving to a menu approach
16:25:57 <mdean> Kifer:  may have initial proposal for a taxonomy in a couple weeks
16:27:17 <mdean> csma:  email lists good for discussion, including counter proposals
16:27:39 <Harold> Sandro -- right, so I guess we meant Volume 2: in logic "system changes" correspond to transit to more expressive logics by adding syntax and semantics.
16:27:40 <ChrisW> q?
16:27:42 <mdean> Hassan:  working on new proposal
16:27:47 <mdean> Topic:  AOB
16:27:58 <PaulV> Bye
16:27:59 <mdean> adjourned
16:28:03 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:28:04 <Zakim> -FrancoisBry
16:28:05 <Zakim> -uli
16:28:06 <Zakim> -Donald_Chapin
16:28:07 <Zakim> -Allen_Ginsberg
16:28:08 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
16:28:09 <Zakim> -josb
16:28:10 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/02-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:28:10 <Zakim> -Igor_Mozetic
16:28:12 <Zakim> -DavidHirtle
16:28:14 <Zakim> -JosDeRoo
16:28:16 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
16:28:17 <igor>  bye
16:28:18 <Zakim> -PaulVincent
16:28:20 <Zakim> -AlexKozlenkov
16:28:22 <Zakim> -pfps
16:28:24 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:28:26 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:28:28 <Zakim> -Deborah_Nichols
16:28:30 <Zakim> -Harold
16:28:32 <Zakim> -MarkusK
16:28:34 <Zakim> -johnhall
16:28:56 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:28:59 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:34:35 <Zakim> -PaulaP
16:34:37 <Zakim> -FrankMcCabe
16:35:40 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:35:41 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:35:43 <Zakim> -Christian
16:35:45 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:35:46 <Zakim> Attendees were Hassan_Ait-Kaci, FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, DavidHirtle, PaulaP, pfps, Allen_Ginsberg, josb, Harold, ChrisW, MarkusK, AxelPolleres, Igor_Mozetic,
16:35:50 <Zakim> ... Dave_Reynolds, FrancoisBry, Mike_Dean, Deborah_Nichols, johnhall, Donald_Chapin, AlexKozlenkov, JosDeRoo, Michael_Kifer, Christian, PaulVincent, Gary_Hallmark, SaidTabet, uli
16:41:52 <der> der has joined #rif
18:34:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rif