IRC log of rif on 2006-05-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:34 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:51:34 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/02-rif-irc
14:51:37 [ChrisW]: zakim, this is rif
14:51:37 [Zakim]: ok, ChrisW; that matches SW_RIF()11:00AM
14:51:37 [cgi-irc]: cgi-irc has joined #rif
14:51:58 [sandro]: rrsagent, make record public
14:52:03 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
14:52:07 [sandro]: rrsagent, make minutes
14:52:07 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/02-rif-minutes.html sandro
14:52:23 [sandro]: rrsagent, make record public
14:52:40 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, bake me a cake as fast as you can
14:52:40 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'bake me a cake as fast as you can', ChrisW. Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:52:55 [cgi-irc]: cgi-irc has joined #rif
14:53:00 [sandro]: rrsagent, pour me a hot bath
14:53:00 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'pour me a hot bath', sandro. Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:54:21 [pfps]: pfps has joined #rif
14:54:28 [cgi-irc]: cgi-irc has joined #rif
14:55:02 [MarkusK]: MarkusK has joined #rif
14:56:01 [FrankMcCabe]: FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
14:56:31 [Zakim]: +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
14:56:47 [Donald_Chapin]: Donald_Chapin has joined #rif
14:57:19 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
14:57:20 [AlexKozlenkov]: AlexKozlenkov has joined #rif
14:57:54 [Zakim]: +[Fujitsu]
14:58:04 [FrankMcCabe]: zakim, fujitsu is me
14:58:05 [Zakim]: +FrankMcCabe; got it
14:58:16 [Zakim]: +Sandro
14:58:17 [Zakim]: +David_Hirtle
14:58:21 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
14:58:22 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has joined #rif
14:58:44 [josb]: josb has joined #rif
14:58:47 [Zakim]: +[LMU]
14:58:51 [Zakim]: +Leora_Morgenstern
14:59:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
14:59:09 [Allen]: Allen has joined #rif
14:59:12 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
14:59:16 [Zakim]: +??P8
14:59:20 [sandro]: zakim, who is here?
14:59:26 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ??P25, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro, DavidHirtle, PaulaP (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), ??P8
14:59:34 [pfps]: zakim, ??P8 is me
14:59:35 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Allen, josb, AxelPolleres, DaveReynolds, AlexKozlenkov, LeoraMorgenstern, Donald_Chapin, FrankMcCabe, MarkusK, pfps, Harold, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW, Hassan,
14:59:40 [Zakim]: ... DavidHirtle, PaulaP, Francois, mdean, sandro, Keeper
14:59:42 [Zakim]: +pfps; got it
14:59:43 [sandro]: zakim, ??P25 is Francoise
14:59:46 [Zakim]: +[DERI]
14:59:47 [sandro]: zakim, ??P25 is Francois
14:59:50 [Zakim]: +Francoise; got it
14:59:52 [Zakim]: +[NRCC]
14:59:56 [Zakim]: I already had ??P25 as Francoise, sandro
15:00:00 [Zakim]: +Allen_Ginsberg
15:00:00 [sandro]: Zakim, Francoise is Francois
15:00:04 [Zakim]: -Allen_Ginsberg
15:00:09 [sandro]: zakim, mute Francois
15:00:10 [Harold]: zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:00:12 [Zakim]: +Francois; got it
15:00:22 [Zakim]: Francois should now be muted
15:00:23 [igor]: igor has joined #rif
15:00:24 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
15:00:36 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:00:37 [ChrisW]: zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:00:51 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:00:55 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
15:00:58 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
15:01:02 [FrancoisBry]: FrancoisBry has joined #rif
15:01:05 [Zakim]: +Allen_Ginsberg
15:01:21 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:01:23 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:01:24 [sandro]: zakim, who is talking?
15:01:29 [Zakim]: +??P34
15:01:33 [Zakim]: +Igor_Mozetic
15:01:33 [igor]: zakim, mute me
15:01:49 [Zakim]: Igor_Mozetic should now be muted
15:01:51 [Zakim]: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AxelPolleres (14%), ??P34 (92%)
15:02:26 [Zakim]: -??P34
15:02:33 [FrancoisBry]: zakim ??P25 is me
15:02:40 [JosDeRoo]: JosDeRoo has joined #rif
15:02:42 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:02:55 [FrancoisBry]: zakim please mute me
15:02:55 [Zakim]: +??P17
15:02:58 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P17)
15:03:05 [pfps]: but can you sing along? :-)
15:03:06 [sandro]: FrancoisBry, you'll need to say "Zakim, Francois is me".
15:03:10 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, mute me
15:03:11 [Zakim]: sorry, Donald_Chapin, I do not see a party named 'Donald_Chapin'
15:03:16 [sandro]: zakim, who is talking?
15:03:16 [FrancoisBry]: zakim Francois is me
15:03:21 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is talking?
15:03:26 [Zakim]: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (49%), ChrisW (27%)
15:03:27 [sandro]: You need the comma, FrancoisBry.
15:03:37 [Zakim]: ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (5%), [IPcaller] (43%), ChrisW (10%)
15:03:41 [FrancoisBry]: zakim, Francois is me
15:03:41 [Zakim]: +FrancoisBry; got it
15:03:49 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
15:03:53 [FrancoisBry]: zakim, please mute me.
15:03:55 [Zakim]: FrancoisBry was already muted, FrancoisBry
15:04:17 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is here?
15:04:25 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FrancoisBry (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro, DavidHirtle, PaulaP (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), pfps, josb (muted), Harold, ChrisW,
15:04:27 [Deborah_Nichols]: Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:04:32 [Zakim]: ... MarkusK (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), AxelPolleres (muted), Igor_Mozetic (muted), Dave_Reynolds (muted)
15:04:34 [Zakim]: On IRC I see JosDeRoo, FrancoisBry, igor, Allen, josb, AxelPolleres, DaveReynolds, AlexKozlenkov, LeoraMorgenstern, Donald_Chapin, FrankMcCabe, MarkusK, pfps, Harold, RRSAgent,
15:04:41 [Zakim]: ... Zakim, ChrisW, Hassan, DavidHirtle, PaulaP, mdean, sandro, Keeper
15:04:47 [Zakim]: +??P13
15:04:52 [AlexKozlenkov]: AlexKozlenkov joined
15:04:52 [AlexKozlenkov]: AlexKozlenkov joined
15:04:59 [Zakim]: +Mike_Dean
15:05:03 [johnhall]: johnhall has joined #rif
15:05:05 [Zakim]: +Deborah_Nichols
15:05:48 [igor]: igor has joined #rif
15:05:55 [AlexKozlenkov]: yes I am
15:05:55 [AlexKozlenkov]: yes I am
15:06:06 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:06:10 [Zakim]: +??P43
15:06:16 [johnhall]: zakim, ipcaller is me
15:06:16 [Zakim]: +johnhall; got it
15:06:27 [johnhall]: zakim, mute me
15:06:27 [Zakim]: johnhall should now be muted
15:06:39 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim P43 is me
15:06:42 [AlexKozlenkov]: AlexKozlenkov zakim joined
15:06:45 [ChrisW]: zakim, ??p13 is alexKozlenkov
15:06:45 [Zakim]: +alexKozlenkov; got it
15:06:55 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, p43 is me
15:06:55 [Zakim]: sorry, Donald_Chapin, I do not recognize a party named 'p43'
15:07:04 [sandro]: Zakim, ??P42 is Donald_Chapin
15:07:04 [Zakim]: I already had ??P42 as johnhall, sandro
15:07:10 [Zakim]: + +87362aaaa
15:07:11 [sandro]: Zakim, ??P43 is Donald_Chapin
15:07:11 [Zakim]: +Donald_Chapin; got it
15:07:15 [Zakim]: +??P45
15:07:20 [SaidTabet]: SaidTabet has joined #RIF
15:07:27 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, mute me
15:07:27 [Zakim]: Donald_Chapin should now be muted
15:07:38 [sandro]: Zakim, alexKozlenkov is AlexKozlenkov
15:07:38 [Zakim]: +AlexKozlenkov; got it
15:07:53 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is here?
15:07:53 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FrancoisBry (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro, DavidHirtle, PaulaP (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), pfps, josb (muted), Harold, ChrisW,
15:07:57 [Zakim]: ... MarkusK (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), AxelPolleres (muted), Igor_Mozetic (muted), Dave_Reynolds (muted), AlexKozlenkov, Mike_Dean, Deborah_Nichols (muted), johnhall (muted),
15:08:01 [Zakim]: ... Donald_Chapin (muted), +87362aaaa, JosDeRoo
15:08:06 [Zakim]: On IRC I see SaidTabet, igor, johnhall, Deborah_Nichols, JosDeRoo, FrancoisBry, Allen, josb, AxelPolleres, DaveReynolds, AlexKozlenkov, LeoraMorgenstern, Donald_Chapin,
15:08:11 [Zakim]: ... FrankMcCabe, MarkusK, pfps, Harold, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW, Hassan, DavidHirtle, PaulaP, mdean, sandro, Keeper
15:08:27 [mdean]: Scribe: Mike Dean
15:08:31 [mdean]: ScribeNick: mdean
15:08:51 [mdean]: Topic: Admin
15:08:57 [ChrisW]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/att-0112/01-part
15:09:16 [mdean]: RESOLVED: accept minutes
15:09:26 [ChrisW]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/att-0120/18-rif-minutes.html
15:09:47 [mdean]: includes revisions based on comments
15:09:52 [mdean]: RESOLVED: accepted
15:09:55 [ChrisW]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/
15:10:14 [mdean]: now have an action tracker - will now be used for tracking actions
15:10:40 [PaulV]: PaulV has joined #rif
15:11:13 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:12:03 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:12:03 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FrancoisBry (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), FrankMcCabe, Sandro, DavidHirtle, PaulaP (muted), Leora_Morgenstern (muted), pfps, josb (muted), Harold, ChrisW,
15:12:07 [Zakim]: ... MarkusK (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), AxelPolleres (muted), Igor_Mozetic (muted), Dave_Reynolds (muted), AlexKozlenkov, Mike_Dean, Deborah_Nichols (muted), johnhall (muted),
15:12:10 [Zakim]: ... Donald_Chapin (muted), +87362aaaa, JosDeRoo (muted)
15:12:11 [Zakim]: +Michael_Kifer
15:12:58 [Zakim]: + +353121781aabb
15:13:07 [sandro]: zakim, +87362aaaa is Christian
15:13:07 [Zakim]: +Christian; got it
15:13:17 [mdean]: pfps: bug in action tracker: actions can have no topics
15:13:35 [mdean]: ... e.g. action ID 1
15:13:50 [mdean]: ... precludes actions by topic
15:14:00 [mdean]: Chair: ChrisW
15:14:10 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, unmute me
15:14:10 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
15:14:13 [LeoraMorgenstern]: q+
15:14:24 [sandro]: zakim, ack
15:14:24 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'ack', sandro
15:14:27 [mdean]: Leora: still working on actions 1 and 2
15:14:30 [sandro]: ack +87362aaaa
15:14:32 [sandro]: ack LeoraMorgenstern
15:14:45 [mdean]: Leora: questions on FOL
15:14:56 [mdean]: ChrisW: defer discussion to later in agenda
15:15:10 [mdean]: Sandro: actions 3, 4, 6 continued
15:15:22 [LeoraMorgenstern]: mdean, not questions on FOL, questions on what we'd like in the draft proposal for FOL
15:15:26 [mdean]: csma: action 9 and 10 continued
15:15:50 [mdean]: ChrisW: any amendments to agenda?
15:16:46 [sandro]: Zakim, +353121781aabb is PaulVincent
15:16:46 [Zakim]: +PaulVincent; got it
15:16:48 [mdean]: ChrisW: no
15:16:55 [mdean]: Topic: F2F meetings
15:17:18 [mdean]: Sandro: tomorrow is deadline for signing up for bus from airport
15:17:22 [PaulaP]: no news
15:17:25 [sandro]: REMINDER: TOMORROW IS THE DEADLINE FOR SIGNING UP FOR THE AIRPORT BUS
15:17:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
15:17:37 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:17:37 [mdean]: Topic: F2F 4
15:17:46 [mdean]: ChrisW: poll is now closed
15:18:25 [ChrisW]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38457/f2f4dates/results
15:19:06 [sandro]: 5-6 October, McLean, Virginia, US - MITRE Proposal 5 1 5 4 4 2
15:19:06 [sandro]: 16-17 October, McLean, Virginia, US - MITRE Proposal 4 4 3 1 7 2
15:19:06 [sandro]: 2-3 November, McLean, Virginia, US - MITRE Proposal 2 4 4 3 7 1
15:19:06 [sandro]: 4-5 November, Athens, Georgia, US - At ISWC 1 4 6 10
15:19:45 [mdean]: ChrisW: 10 prefer ISWC colocation, 6 second highest - nobody objects - looks like clear favorite
15:20:08 [Zakim]: +Gary_Hallmark
15:20:39 [mdean]: csma: do not have clear local organizer
15:20:51 [PaulaP]: how about funding?
15:20:52 [mdean]: pfps: volunteered to handle local arrangements
15:21:15 [GaryHallmark]: GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:21:16 [mdean]: ... or at least contact and interface with conference center
15:21:50 [mdean]: ChrisW: this will require each attendee to register and pay registration fee
15:22:05 [mdean]: ... will accept credit cards
15:22:23 [mdean]: ACTION (pfps): set up page with information
15:22:53 [mdean]: ChrisW: email from Daniel Schwabe regarding arrangements for iswc
15:23:17 [mdean]: pfps: aware of at least 2 options for accepting credit cards
15:23:52 [mdean]: ChrisW: tutorials start on the 5th - workshops still not decided (1 day only)
15:24:12 [sandro]: q- PaulVincent
15:24:23 [mdean]: ... conference dates are correct - tutorials on Nov 5, not Nov 4
15:24:44 [mdean]: RESOLVED: f2f4 at ISWC
15:24:47 [AlexKozlenkov]: how much is the registration fee?
15:25:02 [PaulaP]: +1
15:25:03 [mdean]: ChrisW: thanks to mitre folks for nice proposal - will consider for future meetings
15:25:09 [sandro]: +1 thanks for MITRE for their offier!
15:25:18 [AxelPolleres]: +1 (for csma and me ;-) )
15:25:20 [sandro]: topic: Liasons
15:25:28 [mdean]: Topic: liaisons
15:25:37 [mdean]: ChrisW: status of SPARQL?
15:25:52 [mdean]: Sandro: up in the air - Semantic Web Activity reorg hasn't happened yet
15:25:59 [JosDeRoo]: it is PR
15:26:28 [josb]: candidate
15:26:29 [mdean]: ... SPARQL may be at CR for a while
15:26:33 [josb]: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/
15:27:12 [mdean]: ChrisW: XQuery/XPath?
15:27:33 [mdean]: ChrisW: CL in ISO equivalent of Last Call
15:27:42 [mdean]: ChrisW: PRR?
15:27:50 [mdean]: csma: recent meeting
15:28:15 [mdean]: Paul: csma should have good presentation at F2F - hope to have update for F2F
15:28:17 [Donald_Chapin]: Nothing new
15:28:21 [mdean]: ChrisW: SBVR?
15:28:34 [mdean]: ChrisW: ODM?
15:28:35 [JosDeRoo]: re SPARQL http://www.w3.org/News/2006#x20060406a
15:28:58 [mdean]: ... presentation at OMG meeting - in OMG equivalent of Last Call
15:29:06 [mdean]: Topic: Use Cases and Requirements
15:29:14 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, please unmute me
15:29:14 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
15:29:24 [mdean]: ChrisW: Leora questions on actions
15:29:43 [mdean]: Leora: what do we mean by FOL?
15:29:57 [mdean]: ... specify requirements not syntax
15:30:17 [mdean]: ... but some syntax needed for examples
15:30:35 [mdean]: ... Question 2: should we just use Common Logic?
15:30:52 [sandro]: q+ to say Any FOL, and not CL
15:31:03 [mdean]: ChrisW: question previously raised by Michael
15:31:10 [mdean]: ChrisW: CL is fine
15:31:26 [mdean]: ... may add or subtract features as necessary
15:31:48 [josb]: how is CL the standard for RDF?
15:31:49 [mdean]: Leora: will start with CL
15:32:20 [josb]: q+
15:32:46 [mdean]: Sandro: some concerns about differences between CL and FOL from Peter?
15:32:52 [mdean]: pfps: don't know
15:33:09 [FrankMcCabe]: q+
15:33:22 [sandro]: ack sandro
15:33:22 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to say Any FOL, and not CL
15:33:42 [Zakim]: + +1.617.699.aacc
15:33:48 [mdean]: pfps: RDF is based on non-standard FOL that shares some features with underlying semantics of CL
15:33:51 [sandro]: Peter: RDF is based on a non-standard view of FOL, which it shares with CL
15:34:00 [SaidTabet]: zakim, +1.617.699.aacc is me
15:34:00 [Zakim]: +SaidTabet; got it
15:34:11 [mdean]: ChrisW: no standard FOL other than CL
15:34:35 [sandro]: q+ to suggest there are FOL standards, eg TPTP
15:34:36 [mdean]: ... CL designed to be very flexible, and allows fragments
15:34:55 [FrancoisBry]: +q
15:34:59 [mdean]: ChrisW: start with CL, get refinement from WG - can narrow if needed
15:35:00 [FrancoisBry]: q+
15:35:10 [ChrisW]: q?
15:35:12 [josb]: ack me
15:35:35 [mdean]: josb: what is motivation for using CL?
15:35:51 [mdean]: ... why diverge from textbook definitions
15:36:34 [mdean]: ... can substitute symbols as needed for web
15:37:31 [mdean]: pfps: CL is not yet an ISO standard
15:37:39 [FrancoisBry]: q-
15:37:46 [ChrisW]: q?
15:38:01 [mdean]: Leora: can use vanilla FOL and CL and then pick
15:38:12 [sandro]: q-
15:38:13 [mdean]: Sandro: pick vanilla FOL that works with some theorem prover
15:38:36 [mdean]: Frank: disagree that you can't define FOL without syntax
15:38:41 [LeoraMorgenstern]: q+
15:38:46 [mdean]: ... enumerate features
15:39:08 [mdean]: ... versions of CL have been in standards process for almost a decade
15:39:26 [mdean]: ... why do we need to define FOL if it's not on our roadmap?
15:39:26 [sandro]: (Note syntax for TPTP which is a sort of de-facto FOL interchange format, tptp.org
15:39:27 [LeoraMorgenstern]: q-
15:39:38 [josb]: Some textbook:
15:39:43 [FrankMcCabe]: q-
15:39:52 [mdean]: ChrisW: stop discussion - group can respond to Leora's action
15:39:52 [josb]: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0387942580/qid=1146584341/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-3762612-0543939?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
15:39:59 [josb]: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0122384520/qid=1146584361/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-3762612-0543939?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
15:40:06 [josb]: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0387945938/qid=1146584328/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-3762612-0543939?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
15:40:21 [mdean]: Leora: describe critical success factor
15:40:21 [FrancoisBry]: FrancoisBry has joined #rif
15:40:26 [josb]: s/textbook/textbooks which define FOL/
15:40:43 [mdean]: ... confused by new document from Paula
15:40:54 [mdean]: ... what is CSF for FOL?
15:41:52 [mdean]: csma: earlier discussion about whether FOL is CSF or requirement
15:41:54 [PaulaP]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Towards_a_Rule_Interchange_Format%3A_Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors%2C_Requirements
15:42:05 [PaulaP]: here FOL is a requirement
15:42:09 [mdean]: ... if requirement, need to identify CSF on which it depends
15:42:39 [mdean]: ChrisW: a little vague - needs to be clarified
15:42:58 [ChrisW]: q>
15:42:59 [mdean]: PaulP: got it
15:43:00 [ChrisW]: q?
15:43:23 [ChrisW]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Towards_a_Rule_Interchange_Format%3A_Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors%2C_Requirements
15:43:25 [mdean]: Topic: CSF Goals and Requirements from Paula
15:43:45 [FrankMcCabe]: q+
15:44:01 [SaidTabet]: zakim, mute me
15:44:01 [Zakim]: SaidTabet should now be muted
15:44:02 [mdean]: ChrisW: published Friday, not extensive time to review
15:44:26 [mdean]: Frank: interesting list, but didn't meet Frank's requirements
15:44:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
15:44:28 [Zakim]: Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:44:48 [mdean]: ... most of list is technical requirements about product
15:45:12 [mdean]: ... for CSF, consider whether you addressing builder of spec or users
15:45:20 [mdean]: ... too much internal, not enough external
15:45:25 [mdean]: ... wrote own CSFs
15:45:49 [mdean]: ... goal: wide scale adoption
15:45:59 [mdean]: ... CSF: relevant to users
15:46:05 [mdean]: ... not FOL or whatever
15:46:10 [ChrisW]: Frank's list: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors_and_Requirements
15:46:25 [mdean]: ... may have subrequirements
15:46:40 [mdean]: ... e.g. support for production rules
15:47:08 [FrancoisBry]: Is the difference between 'critical sucess factor' and 'requirement' worth being discussed at length?
15:47:37 [mdean]: ... may well have multiple? CSFs
15:47:48 [PaulaP]: q+
15:47:49 [mdean]: ... try not to pre-guess solutions
15:48:11 [mdean]: ... Paul's list nice as requirements, but not CSFs
15:49:05 [DavidHirtle]: s/Paul's/Paula's
15:49:20 [mdean]: ... want to avoid confusion soundness and completeness
15:49:35 [mdean]: ... write from customer's point of view
15:50:13 [Hassan]: I agree with Frank that ultimately, RIF's success will depend on its usability
15:50:52 [mdean]: ... would add Paula's requirements to this list, linking to use cases important, desiderata are also nice
15:51:35 [ChrisW]: q?
15:51:40 [mdean]: ... borrowed some from Paula, but somewhat different style
15:51:44 [ChrisW]: ack frank
15:51:46 [ChrisW]: ack paula
15:51:58 [mdean]: Paula: wide-scale adoption implied by expressiveness
15:52:08 [mdean]: ... sounds a bit too general
15:52:17 [mdean]: ... applicable to all W3C work not just RIF
15:52:51 [mdean]: Frank: good point, but could see situation where someone has a tantrum saying feature X must bein RIF
15:53:18 [mdean]: ... how does the group semi-rationally decide on including that feature in RIF?
15:53:44 [mdean]: ... strong basis: if too expensive or nobody understands it
15:53:59 [sandro]: q>
15:54:01 [sandro]: q?
15:54:05 [mdean]: ... motherhood and apple pie, but useful as background to reinforce future discussions
15:54:20 [DaveReynolds]: q+
15:54:24 [mdean]: ... [explanation of motherhood and apple pie]
15:54:39 [sandro]: "motherhood" and "apple pie" are, idiomatically, things which are so good that no one would ever argue against them.
15:55:02 [mdean]: ... cost of implementation is important consideration
15:55:20 [DaveReynolds]: ack me
15:55:29 [Hassan]: Frank's making sense to me ...
15:56:07 [mdean]: Dave: ... [missed it - sorry]
15:56:51 [mdean]: ChrisW: goal 1 identical
15:56:55 [sandro]: Dave: Frank's "1.2 Widescale Adoption" includes much of what I said in my e-mail to Paula
15:57:06 [mdean]: ... expressiveness is way to achieve widescale adoption
15:57:31 [mdean]: ... consistency with W3C specs important goal for RIF
15:57:57 [ChrisW]: q?
15:57:59 [mdean]: ... would like to see more discussion at goal level
15:58:28 [mdean]: csma: Paula's goal equivalent to Dave Reynold's interchanges can be meaning preserving
15:58:52 [ChrisW]: DaveR's proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/0005
15:59:08 [mdean]: ... what is perceived difference between Dave's proposal for foundation and Frank's compatibility with W3C standards?
15:59:23 [mdean]: Sandro: pretty similar - perhaps W3C standards and vision
15:59:38 [mdean]: ... include things that other Working Group have hinted at
15:59:46 [mdean]: ... middle ground - may be too nebulous
15:59:53 [DaveReynolds]: q+
15:59:59 [DaveReynolds]: ack me
16:00:01 [mdean]: ... comments from group?
16:00:40 [mdean]: Dave: isn't this covered by logic preserving?
16:01:07 [mdean]: ... semantics preserving and conformance covered under rule exchange
16:01:30 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:01:31 [DavidHirtle]: q+
16:01:36 [mdean]: ChrisW: what about extensibility?
16:02:01 [PaulaP]: +1 to Chris' comment on conformance
16:02:04 [mdean]: ... not just about sound, but anticipating different extensions
16:02:10 [ChrisW]: q?
16:02:15 [mdean]: s/sound/soundness/
16:03:10 [PaulaP]: q+
16:03:12 [mdean]: Hirtle: perhaps need more goals - OWL had 8
16:04:02 [mdean]: Paula: need concrete goals, CSFs, and requirements
16:04:23 [DavidHirtle]: one other thing: "Level of expressiveness" doesn't much sound like a goal, but I'm sure it could be rephrased
16:04:27 [Hassan]: q+
16:04:34 [PaulaP]: q-
16:04:39 [mdean]: Frank: trying to avoid prejudging the outcome - focus on problem
16:04:41 [DavidHirtle]: q-
16:04:56 [mdean]: ... somewhat fuzzy, but otherwise get lost in weeds
16:05:02 [FrancoisBry]: What are your "right questions", Frank????
16:06:03 [mdean]: csma: covering production rules is probably too fuzzy
16:06:17 [Uli]: Uli has joined #rif
16:06:23 [mdean]: ... concrete version would be like concrete syntax for PRR
16:06:51 [DavidHirtle]: (for comparison, OWL's goals: http://www.w3.org/TR/webont-req/#section-goals)
16:06:53 [mdean]: Frank: working with Paula - views are complementary and can be merged into 1
16:06:59 [Zakim]: -SaidTabet
16:07:02 [mdean]: ... hoping to merge
16:07:19 [PaulaP]: q?
16:07:27 [mdean]: csma: statement requirements in such a way that they are useful for design
16:07:43 [ChrisW]: ack hassan
16:07:55 [sandro]: I wonder if it's time to have Frank and Paula go off and come up with a consensus document between them? Do they have enough guidance from us?
16:07:55 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:08:12 [sandro]: (Or do they need a 3rd?)
16:08:14 [mdean]: Hassan: also don't see contradiction - external usage is important
16:08:55 [sandro]: q?
16:08:59 [mdean]: ... reduce search space
16:09:25 [mdean]: ... willing to help if needed
16:09:25 [DaveReynolds]: ack me
16:09:39 [Hassan]: q-
16:09:40 [mdean]: Dave: quite a few are compatible
16:10:05 [mdean]: ... but emphasis on simplicity vs. specificity
16:10:20 [Hassan]: It will require work
16:10:23 [mdean]: ... trivial merge loses criteria for specific expressivity requirements
16:11:02 [mdean]: Frank: buy-in from everybody needed as we progress
16:11:12 [mdean]: ... some requirements may not fit into overall picture
16:11:32 [mdean]: csma: need more complete picture
16:11:42 [mdean]: ... to identify incompatibilities
16:11:47 [Zakim]: +??P7
16:12:09 [Uli]: zakim, ??P7 is uli
16:12:09 [Zakim]: +uli; got it
16:12:27 [mdean]: ChrisW: can Frank and Paula agree on goals?
16:12:32 [mdean]: ... without requirements for now
16:13:09 [mdean]: Sandro: also include requirements that have been discussed
16:13:27 [mdean]: ChrisW: agree first on initial set of goals
16:14:20 [mdean]: ACTION (Frank, Paula): propose goals - within next couple days if possible - for discussion next week
16:14:36 [mdean]: Topic: Technical Design
16:14:42 [ChrisW]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/0068.html
16:15:15 [mdean]: Chris: design for extensibility
16:15:30 [mdean]: ... out for over a week
16:16:04 [mdean]: csma: like the proposal quite a lot - authors did a good job
16:16:22 [mdean]: ... orthogonal to extensibility mechanism - could be complemented by it
16:16:41 [mdean]: ... staging design
16:16:47 [Hassan]: q+
16:17:05 [mdean]: ... extensibility should also be discussed
16:17:11 [sandro]: Frank/Paula goal recorded as http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/actions/11
16:17:22 [mdean]: ChrisW: doesn't provide extensibility
16:18:03 [ChrisW]: ack hassan
16:18:25 [mdean]: Hassan: like grammar-based, family of languages approach
16:18:34 [Harold]: q+
16:18:40 [mdean]: ... achieve extensions by adding new (composible) grammar rules
16:18:48 [Hassan]: q-
16:18:49 [ChrisW]: ack harold
16:19:07 [mdean]: Harold: discussion 2 months ago: modular extensions not appropriate for logic
16:19:16 [mdean]: ... different than programming languages
16:19:28 [MichaelKifer]: q+
16:19:32 [mdean]: s/logic/layers of logic languages/
16:19:57 [mdean]: ... some ideas for adding negation, etc.
16:20:11 [mdean]: csma: extension mechanism should be added or clarified
16:20:36 [sandro]: Harold -- there are two kinds of programming language extensions -- in unix Volume 2 and Volume 3. Volume 3 are just more C code and anyone could do -- they do not add expressive power. Volume 2 require system changes -- they do add expressive power.
16:21:10 [FrancoisBry]: Xor is good for bewtter expression and better processing.
16:21:44 [mdean]: Kifer: hint at extensibility mechanism in taxonomy of semantic and syntactic features
16:23:53 [Uli]: where would this attribute be attached to?
16:23:56 [ChrisW]: q?
16:24:02 [MichaelKifer]: q-
16:24:03 [ChrisW]: ack michael
16:24:24 [mdean]: Hassan: how are we proceeding with this idea?
16:24:43 [mdean]: ChrisW: discussing, silence generally interpreted as agreement
16:25:08 [mdean]: ... discuss via email, will add to agenda next week
16:25:32 [mdean]: ... seem to be moving to a menu approach
16:25:57 [mdean]: Kifer: may have initial proposal for a taxonomy in a couple weeks
16:27:17 [mdean]: csma: email lists good for discussion, including counter proposals
16:27:39 [Harold]: Sandro -- right, so I guess we meant Volume 2: in logic "system changes" correspond to transit to more expressive logics by adding syntax and semantics.
16:27:40 [ChrisW]: q?
16:27:42 [mdean]: Hassan: working on new proposal
16:27:47 [mdean]: Topic: AOB
16:27:58 [PaulV]: Bye
16:27:59 [mdean]: adjourned
16:28:03 [Zakim]: -Gary_Hallmark
16:28:04 [Zakim]: -FrancoisBry
16:28:05 [Zakim]: -uli
16:28:06 [Zakim]: -Donald_Chapin
16:28:07 [Zakim]: -Allen_Ginsberg
16:28:08 [Zakim]: -Michael_Kifer
16:28:09 [Zakim]: -josb
16:28:10 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:10 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/02-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:28:10 [Zakim]: -Igor_Mozetic
16:28:12 [Zakim]: -DavidHirtle
16:28:14 [Zakim]: -JosDeRoo
16:28:16 [Zakim]: -Dave_Reynolds
16:28:17 [igor]: bye
16:28:18 [Zakim]: -PaulVincent
16:28:20 [Zakim]: -AlexKozlenkov
16:28:22 [Zakim]: -pfps
16:28:24 [Zakim]: -Leora_Morgenstern
16:28:26 [Zakim]: -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:28:28 [Zakim]: -Deborah_Nichols
16:28:30 [Zakim]: -Harold
16:28:32 [Zakim]: -MarkusK
16:28:34 [Zakim]: -johnhall
16:28:56 [Zakim]: -Mike_Dean
16:28:59 [Zakim]: -AxelPolleres
16:34:35 [Zakim]: -PaulaP
16:34:37 [Zakim]: -FrankMcCabe
16:35:40 [Zakim]: -Sandro
16:35:41 [Zakim]: -ChrisW
16:35:43 [Zakim]: -Christian
16:35:45 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:35:46 [Zakim]: Attendees were Hassan_Ait-Kaci, FrankMcCabe, Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, DavidHirtle, PaulaP, pfps, Allen_Ginsberg, josb, Harold, ChrisW, MarkusK, AxelPolleres, Igor_Mozetic,
16:35:50 [Zakim]: ... Dave_Reynolds, FrancoisBry, Mike_Dean, Deborah_Nichols, johnhall, Donald_Chapin, AlexKozlenkov, JosDeRoo, Michael_Kifer, Christian, PaulVincent, Gary_Hallmark, SaidTabet, uli
16:41:52 [der]: der has joined #rif
18:34:59 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rif