IRC log of htmltf on 2006-05-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:56:41 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/05/01-htmltf-irc
12:56:48 [Zakim]
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12:56:52 [RalphS]
zakim, this will be rdf
12:56:52 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, RalphS
12:56:56 [RalphS]
zakim, this will be html
12:56:56 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, RalphS
13:00:01 [Steven]
zakim, list
13:00:01 [Zakim]
I see WAI_PFWG(roadmap)9:00AM active
13:00:02 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are MWI_DDWG()9:00AM, Team_SysWeb()8:00AM
13:00:56 [benadida]
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13:01:01 [benadida]
be right there
13:02:04 [Steven]
Hmm, calendar request for the call expired?
13:03:35 [RalphS]
working on it
13:03:48 [benadida]
should I not call in in the meantime?
13:03:59 [Steven]
nowhere to call to :-)
13:04:05 [benadida]
ahah
13:04:06 [RalphS]
zakim, this will be html
13:04:06 [Zakim]
ok, RalphS, I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM already started
13:04:12 [benadida]
that's me
13:04:18 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
13:04:18 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:04:19 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
13:04:20 [RalphS]
zakim, who's on the call?
13:04:21 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida
13:04:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ben_Adida
13:04:34 [Zakim]
+Ralph
13:04:34 [benadida]
yeah, zakim loves me, he really loves me
13:04:37 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
13:04:38 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida
13:04:55 [Steven]
zakim, drop steven
13:04:55 [Zakim]
sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'steven'
13:05:03 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
13:05:03 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:05:05 [Zakim]
+Steven
13:06:53 [RalphS]
Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML
13:06:55 [RalphS]
Chair: Ben
13:06:59 [RalphS]
Topic Action Review
13:07:11 [RalphS]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0070.html
13:07:30 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]
13:07:33 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:07:41 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
13:07:44 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:07:59 [RalphS]
Ben: work with DanC pre-empted things
13:08:04 [RalphS]
ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:08:14 [RalphS]
-- continues
13:08:19 [RalphS]
Steven: it's being worked on
13:08:46 [RalphS]
Regrets: Mark (UK holiday)
13:10:02 [RalphS]
Ben: does HTML WG have a deadline?
13:10:18 [RalphS]
Steven: we have a face-to-face shortly after WWW2006
13:11:03 [RalphS]
Topic: Outstanding Issues
13:11:59 [MarkB_]
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13:12:05 [RalphS]
Steven: regrets for next week
13:12:09 [Zakim]
+Mark_Birbeck
13:13:18 [RalphS]
Ben: in 2 weeks (10 days before WWW2006) I propose we use the telecon to review WWW2006 presentation
13:13:50 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben, Mark be ready on 15 May to discuss WWW2006 presentations
13:14:31 [RalphS]
Mark: 15 May is the day before XTech and I'm doing an RDF/a presentation there
13:14:51 [RalphS]
... Steven is doing a tutorial
13:15:06 [RalphS]
... AJAX being discussed on Monday, I'm involved in that too
13:15:24 [RalphS]
Steven: my tutorial is on 16 May (Tuesday)
13:15:31 [RalphS]
s/on Monday/on Tuesday/
13:16:44 [RalphS]
Mark: we should use different examples in our sessions so it doesn't sound like the same pitch repeated
13:17:04 [RalphS]
Ben: propose that the presenters send an outline this week of their presentations
13:18:32 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben, Mark, Steven send outlines of their XTech and WWW2006 presentations this week
13:19:09 [RalphS]
s/different/same/
13:19:30 [RalphS]
Mark: if we've agreed that calendar examples in the primer are good illustrations of RDF/a we should all use them
13:19:45 [RalphS]
s/doesn't sound/sounds/
13:20:06 [RalphS]
Mark: good to sound coordinated so we might get blogged
13:23:46 [RalphS]
Ben: the hGRDDL idea that DanC and I came up with last week might be a bridge to microformat folk
13:26:14 [Steven]
11 slides starting http://www.w3.org/2006/Talks/05-16-steven-XHTML2-XForms/#metadata
13:26:53 [Steven]
(THat was my action item fulfilled)
13:27:00 [Steven]
s/TH/Th/
13:27:40 [RalphS]
Ben: the hGRDDL idea allows domain-specific apps to be built
13:29:04 [RalphS]
Mark: I've recently been looking into the information resource vs. non-information resource issue
13:29:29 [RalphS]
... I'll explain in mail
13:30:20 [RalphS]
... the question arises whenever metadata is embedded in the document it describes
13:31:07 [RalphS]
... many metadata embedding formats require the application to have domain-specific knowledge
13:31:40 [RalphS]
Ben: DanC and I spent Thursday hacking GetCal
13:38:42 [benadida]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues#nested-metas-and-links
13:39:05 [benadida]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Mar/0060
13:39:26 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make this record public
13:39:57 [RalphS]
Mark: I'd like to take up the role attribute first
13:40:10 [RalphS]
Steven: issues 4 and 7 are really one issue
13:41:15 [RalphS]
... when I did the RSS example I came to the conclusion that role as rdf:type solved a number of problems and made things easier to write
13:41:43 [RalphS]
Mark: my original thought was to use the class attribute
13:41:58 [RalphS]
... the words "class" and "type" are almost synonymous
13:42:06 [RalphS]
... role connotes a purpose
13:42:19 [RalphS]
... e.g. exchanging one script for a different one gives same functionality
13:42:34 [RalphS]
... so 'role' might be of type 'hint'
13:42:54 [RalphS]
... I've come back around to thinking that the role something plays does not necessarily mean it has that type
13:43:19 [RalphS]
... by making class= serve this function we get closer to microformats and to Ian Davis' Embedded RDF proposal
13:43:51 [RalphS]
Ben: playing devil's advocate, class= is currently playing a kind of local role
13:44:25 [RalphS]
... the namespace for class values is the local document
13:45:10 [RalphS]
... so harder to move from class="vEvent" to class="html:vEvent"
13:45:35 [RalphS]
... but maybe this is ok; can say that html:vEvents _in this document_ are styled in a particular way
13:45:55 [RalphS]
Steven: class has so much existing usage that I'd prefer to leave it alone and choose a new attribute
13:46:19 [RalphS]
Ben: role= could create two triples: both xhtml:role and rdf:type
13:46:42 [RalphS]
Mark: should do xhtml:role anyway -- the question is whether xhtml:role is rdfs:subPropertyOf of rdf:type
13:46:58 [RalphS]
... to me it doesn't feel that to play the role of a toolbar is the same as _being_ a toolbar
13:47:15 [RalphS]
Ben: xhtml:class could also be rdfs:subPropertyOf rdf:type
13:47:29 [RalphS]
... an author might be able to use either one
13:47:46 [RalphS]
Mark: I do think we need to say something about class attribute; it's too close to having semantic meaning
13:48:30 [RalphS]
... I think xhtml:class should definitely be subPropertyOf rdf:type
13:48:42 [RalphS]
Steven: we're talking about the whole world's use of class
13:49:06 [RalphS]
Mark: processors that want to draw conclusions from unqualified markup are on their own
13:49:25 [RalphS]
Ben: people will complain if we generate triples without telling folk
13:50:16 [RalphS]
Ralph: we'll regret it in the future if we specify that some markup generates triples that really do not mean anything
13:50:38 [RalphS]
Mark: I think it would be a mistake not to define some behavior of class=
13:50:48 [RalphS]
... lots of people have been using it correctly for years
13:51:45 [RalphS]
Ben: do we agree that role= should generate some triples?
13:51:52 [RalphS]
Mark: yes, xh2:role
13:52:01 [RalphS]
... the question is whether xh2:role is also rdf:type
13:52:17 [RalphS]
... I was hoping the community would comment on whether role is rdf:type or not
13:52:45 [RalphS]
... folk who are good at logic and semantics may care
13:53:24 [RalphS]
Ben: my personal opinion is that defining triples only for xh2:role and not xh2:class would feel wierd
13:54:09 [RalphS]
Mark: because we don't know what the current deployed values of rel, rev, and class are then maybe the unqualified properties are only in the local namespace of the document
13:55:56 [RalphS]
Ralph: yes, I've been nervous for a long time about imputing semantics on existing markup when it's not completely clear that the author meant those semantics
13:57:31 [RalphS]
... perhaps a specific profile value gives us a way to handle the author's intent
13:58:45 [RalphS]
Ben: profile could be a way to handle the hGRDDL idea; a profile for XHTML1 that says this document is intended to have transformations
13:59:02 [RalphS]
... in XHTML1, rel='next' really does mean rel='html:next'
13:59:29 [RalphS]
... so we handle legacy XHTML markup by adding a profile that does that next -> html:next transformation
13:59:45 [RalphS]
... we specify that the transformations happen before RDF/a processing
13:59:53 [RalphS]
... which keeps RDF/a more regular
14:00:12 [RalphS]
Steven: will people have to write xhtml2:index in the future?
14:00:24 [RalphS]
Ben: no, we'd define an XHTML2 profile that takes care of that
14:01:04 [RalphS]
... this allows RDF/a to be generic but handle language-specific conventions in the languages themselves
14:01:37 [RalphS]
Ralph: that does seem to put the burden in the more appropriate places
14:03:36 [RalphS]
s/thoughts/summary of role discussion/
14:03:40 [Zakim]
-Ralph
14:03:45 [Zakim]
-Steven
14:03:46 [Zakim]
-Mark_Birbeck
14:03:46 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
14:03:48 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
14:03:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ben_Adida, Ralph, Steven, Mark_Birbeck
14:04:02 [benadida]
Ben: taking the hGRDDL idea further, we can decide that:
14:04:13 [benadida]
... 1) CURIEs always resolve to the current URI as the base namespace
14:04:27 [benadida]
... 2) each language has a default profile
14:05:03 [benadida]
... 3) for example, XHTML1 has a profile which transforms <ul></ul> into an rdf:Bag, class="" into rdfs:type, rel="next" into rel="xh:next", etc...
14:05:20 [benadida]
... 4) if XHTML2 wants to have its own special values, then it can have its own hGRDDL profile
14:05:39 [benadida]
... 5) if Google wants rel="nofollow", they can define a Google profile that makes that work
14:05:59 [benadida]
... Basically, all language specific syntactic sugar can be come part of the pre-processing by profile
14:06:03 [benadida]
and that's it :)
14:06:23 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:06:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/05/01-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
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