12:46:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
12:46:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/04/24-htmltf-irc
12:46:23 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF
12:46:28 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF
12:46:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #htmltf
12:46:37 <RalphS> zakim, this will be rdf
12:46:37 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
12:46:49 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make record public
12:47:03 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0044.html
12:47:19 <RalphS> RalphS has changed the topic to: HTML TF 24 April agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0044.html
12:47:49 <RalphS> Previous: 2006-04-18 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0035.html
12:56:18 <Steven> Steven has joined #htmltf
12:57:24 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
12:57:31 <Zakim> +Ralph
13:01:11 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:01:11 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:01:12 <Zakim> +Steven
13:04:29 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
13:04:36 <benadida> benadida has joined #htmltf
13:04:40 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
13:06:13 <RalphS> Steven: most HTML authors think the words "tag" and "element" mean the same thing
13:07:36 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
13:08:00 <RalphS> Topic: Action Review
13:08:33 <Zakim> +??P5
13:08:40 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben draft mail to Guus and David regarding continuation of HTML TF work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:08:43 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
13:08:43 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
13:08:50 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]
13:08:53 <RalphS> -- continues
13:09:00 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
13:09:03 <RalphS> -- continues
13:09:13 <RalphS> ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:09:16 <RalphS> -- continues
13:10:32 <RalphS> Mark: I'm going through and collecting all the little decisions to update the separate RDF/A spec doc
13:10:38 <RalphS> Topic: RDFa Primer Draft
13:11:17 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-04-24-rdfa-primer 24 April Primer editors' draft
13:11:46 <RalphS> Ben: need further checking to be sure we've addressed all comments
13:12:19 <RalphS> ... the new section 2 side-steps the issue of HTML frag ids (also) naming physical objects
13:12:54 <RalphS> Steven: I agree that #frag ids in HTML docs should be able to refer to non-information-resources
13:14:30 <RalphS> Ben: some people hold the position that #frag in an HTML document cannot name physical objects
13:14:53 <RalphS> ... Pat Hayes says such URIs can be either documents or physical objects; it doesn't matter
13:16:21 <RalphS> Mark: it seems odd to me to treat the HTML resource space in this special way
13:17:36 <RalphS> Ben: DanC has said that if an HTML document does not contain id="car" then it's ok to refer to a physical car with "#car"
13:17:53 <RalphS> Mark: then what happens later if the id is added to the document?
13:19:27 <RalphS> Ralph: my understanding of the TAG's position is that the server distinguishes between information resource and non-information resource by returning 200 or 303
13:19:53 <RalphS> ... so doc#car refers to an information resource if the server returns 200
13:20:08 <RalphS> ... and if doc#car is meant to refer to a physical object, the server should return 303
13:20:31 <RalphS> ... I'm trying to understand if this is deployable
13:22:08 <RalphS> Ben: I hope to ask the SWBPD WG for reviewers to read this new draft starting Wednesday
13:23:26 <RalphS> ... with a target to get WG to approve publishing at its 8 May telecon
13:23:58 <RalphS> Ben: in the new section 2 I use role attribute to signal rdf:type
13:24:06 <RalphS> Steven: I saw that and liked it
13:24:37 <RalphS> PROPOSE to ask the SWBPD WG to review this editor's draft and submit for publication
13:24:50 <RalphS> (no objection)
13:25:02 <RalphS> RESOLVED to ask the SWBPD WG to review this editor's draft and submit for publication
13:25:08 <RalphS> Steven: what about section 5?
13:25:31 <RalphS> Ben: I was planning to leave it as is for this version
13:25:41 <RalphS> ... I would like to re-engage the Dublin Core community
13:25:51 <RalphS> ... and add a Dublin Core section in a future version
13:26:11 <RalphS> Steven: I think it would be nice to have summaries of some of the main vocabularies that people are likely to use
13:26:58 <RalphS> Mark: Google Calendar has a nice data structuring convention
13:27:08 <RalphS> ... can be read by both RSS and ATOM
13:27:37 <RalphS> ... so iCal folk can use this immediately
13:30:03 <MarkB_> http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/protocol.html
13:30:20 <MarkB_> http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/common-elements.html
13:30:50 <MarkB_> e.g., http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/common-elements.html#gdEmail
13:31:00 <RalphS> Ben: it would be great to have examples based on Google's gdata vocabulary
13:31:38 <RalphS> Mark: since we agreed last week that rel can have multiple values, it's easy to markup in multiple vocabularies
13:32:22 <RalphS> Topic: meta and link referring only to parent
13:32:42 <RalphS> Steven: about= on head rang bells
13:33:05 <RalphS> Mark: about= on head was a recent idea; we've not yet settled ths
13:33:09 <RalphS> s/ths/this/
13:33:26 <RalphS> Mark: about="" on head isn't resolved
13:33:26 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues#head-about
13:34:37 <RalphS> Ben: I had a proposal to specify a default about="" on the HTML root element
13:35:04 <RalphS> ... this would make meta and link in the head work as before
13:35:30 <RalphS> ... might be good to add default about="" to body as well, though this isn't needed for backward compatibility
13:35:50 <RalphS> Mark: I think it will make the processing rules easier if we specify that body has a default about=""
13:36:52 <RalphS> ... rather than specifying that the default subject is the current document, we specify that the processor looks up the tree to find the first about attribute
13:37:24 <RalphS> ... so some other language, e.g. SVG, could change the default subject by adding their own 'about' if they wish
13:37:48 <RalphS> Steven: this does solve the problem but I'd hoped we would not have to make special cases
13:38:04 <RalphS> ... so if we can find a better solution, I might prefer it
13:38:29 <RalphS> Ben: so introducing the special case on body may be too much
13:39:00 <RalphS> Steven: the proposal to add default about="" to body is new and I don't see the justification
13:39:57 <RalphS> Ben: meta and link in the head have previously referred to the whole document so adding about="" to the head is an obvious solution
13:40:10 <RalphS> Mark: let's separate the head and body issues
13:40:29 <RalphS> ... I'm proposing to make things consistent
13:41:09 <RalphS> ... how do you generally declare the rule that the default subject is the current document
13:41:24 <RalphS> ... we could eliminate a rule elsewhere by using the same technique on body as on head
13:42:03 <RalphS> Ben: we could add the about="" default to _both_ the root HTML element and the HEAD element
13:42:20 <RalphS> ... this makes frames also refer to the current page
13:42:28 <RalphS> ... and avoids special-case for body
13:43:12 <RalphS> Mark: this would work except for a problem with other rules such as xml:base
13:43:35 <RalphS> ... if head contains xml:base then the subject should be the base URI
13:44:12 <RalphS> s/xml:/html:/
13:44:17 <RalphS> s/xml:/html:/
13:44:50 <MarkB_> <html>
13:44:50 <MarkB_>   <head>
13:44:50 <MarkB_>     <meta ... />
13:44:50 <MarkB_>     <base ... />
13:44:50 <MarkB_>   </head>
13:44:51 <MarkB_>   .
13:44:53 <RalphS> Ben: but html:base has no children
13:44:53 <MarkB_>   .
13:44:55 <MarkB_>   .
13:44:57 <MarkB_> </html>
13:45:23 <RalphS> Ben: it's OK if HTML defines other ways to establish the current URI
13:46:17 <RalphS> Mark: an RDF/A processor has to find html:base to know the document's URI
13:47:41 <RalphS> Ben: I'm confused why the triples refer to the html:base value
13:48:03 <RalphS> ... there is still a document at the (non-base) URI
13:48:14 <RalphS> ... so we have to think carefully about the semantics of html:base
13:48:34 <RalphS> ... why should the subject of the triples change from the URI at which the document was fetched?
13:49:37 <RalphS> Mark: html:base changes the base for relative URIs cited within the document
13:50:11 <RalphS> ... about="" is by definition relative to the "current URI" of the document
13:50:18 <RalphS> ... and html:base can change the current URI
13:51:37 <RalphS> Mark: we need a rule to say what happens in the absence of an about attribute
13:52:32 <RalphS> Ben: so to get compatibility for meta and link is to add an explicit about="" to head
13:53:08 <RalphS> Mark: the reason for this is that meta and link refer explicitly to their parent
13:55:41 <RalphS> Steven: if we add implicit about="" to the head for backward compatibility then whatever we do to the HTML root element we should say does not change the HEAD element
13:56:07 <RalphS> Mark: so if you want to make statements about whatever you named in the root, you put those statements in the body
13:57:23 <RalphS> Mark: think of the example posted to the list a few weeks ago from someone who wanted to use the RDF/A syntax in an OWL document to avoid having to repeat attributes
13:58:25 <RalphS> Ben: so we're sticking with the rule that the processor searches up the tree to find about=
13:58:48 <RalphS> ... the only change we make is to add explicit about="" on head, which can be overridden by user
13:59:07 <RalphS> Mark: I will put this in my XHTML1 schema
13:59:32 <RalphS> RESOLVED: we're sticking with the rule that the processor searches up the tree to find about= and add explicit about="" to head
13:59:50 <RalphS> Ben: who should have the action to think about the HTML namespace URI issue?
14:00:06 <RalphS> Steven: propose SWBPD takes this issue
14:00:21 <RalphS> ... but doesn't this go away with CURIEs?
14:00:54 <RalphS> Ben: we want CURIEs to be backwards-compatible with QNames
14:01:02 <RalphS> [adjourned]
14:01:04 <Zakim> -Ralph
14:01:06 <Zakim> -MarkB_
14:01:07 <Zakim> -Steven
14:01:08 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
14:01:09 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
14:01:11 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Steven, Ben_Adida, MarkB_
14:01:19 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:01:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/24-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
14:01:27 <RalphS> zakim, bye
14:01:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #htmltf
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15:04:36 <Steven> Steven has left #htmltf