IRC log of rif on 2006-04-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:47:35 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:47:35 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-rif-irc
14:47:40 [sandro]: rrsagent, make record public
14:47:58 [sandro]: chair: Chris Welty
14:48:07 [sandro]: RRSAgent, make minutes
14:48:07 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-rif-minutes.html sandro
14:48:27 [patranja]: patranja has joined #rif
14:48:54 [sandro]: (Excellent question for Ilona, Paula.)
14:49:11 [PaulaP]: thanks :)
14:50:56 [MarkusK]: MarkusK has joined #rif
14:52:22 [FrankMcCabe]: FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
14:55:00 [PhilippeB]: PhilippeB has joined #rif
14:55:48 [sandro]: zakim, this is rif
14:55:48 [Zakim]: ok, sandro; that matches SW_RIF()11:00AM
14:55:59 [sandro]: zakim, who is here?
14:55:59 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MoZ, ??P35, Sandro
14:56:00 [Zakim]: On IRC I see PhilippeB, FrankMcCabe, MarkusK, PaulaP, RRSAgent, Zakim, sandro, csma, Francois, MoZ, Keeper
14:56:24 [Francois]: zakim,
14:56:24 [Zakim]: I don't understand '', Francois
14:56:29 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
14:56:46 [Zakim]: +??P3
14:56:52 [Zakim]: +Philippe_Bonnard (was ??P3)
14:57:04 [sandro]: zakim, ??P25 is Francois
14:57:04 [Zakim]: I already had ??P25 as Ian, sandro
14:57:05 [PhilippeB]: Zakim, mute me
14:57:05 [Zakim]: Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted
14:57:05 [Zakim]: +??P37
14:57:07 [sandro]: zakim, ??P35 is Francois
14:57:07 [Zakim]: +Francois; got it
14:57:13 [sandro]: zakim, who is talking
14:57:13 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is talking', sandro
14:57:18 [IanH]: IanH has joined #rif
14:57:25 [csma]: zakim, ??P37 is me
14:57:25 [Zakim]: +csma; got it
14:57:26 [sandro]: zakim, who is talking?
14:57:36 [Zakim]: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MoZ (23%), Sandro (100%)
14:57:41 [MoZ]: mute me
14:57:43 [Francois]: zakim, please mute me.
14:57:43 [Zakim]: Francois should now be muted
14:57:48 [MoZ]: Zakim, mute me
14:57:48 [Zakim]: MoZ should now be muted
14:58:15 [MoZ]: sandro, sorry cheap phone !
14:58:21 [Zakim]: + +1.703.717.aaaa
14:58:22 [Zakim]: +??P38
14:58:28 [Zakim]: +Chris_Welty (was +1.703.717.aaaa)
14:58:28 [DavidHirtle]: DavidHirtle has joined #rif
14:58:44 [sandro]: Is it a speaker phone, MoZ?
14:58:55 [Allen]: Allen has joined #rif
14:59:09 [Zakim]: +PaulaP
14:59:16 [MoZ]: sandro, yes
14:59:31 [Hassan]: Hassan has joined #rif
14:59:32 [Zakim]: +[NRCC]
14:59:40 [Zakim]: +Allen_Ginsberg
14:59:47 [Harold]: zakim, [NRCC] is me
14:59:47 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
14:59:51 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
14:59:51 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:00:09 [sandro]: Moz, Okay, yeah, speakerphones that work on conference calls are very expensive if they work at all. :-)
15:00:09 [PhilippeB]: Zakim, unmute me
15:00:09 [Zakim]: Philippe_Bonnard should no longer be muted
15:00:12 [Zakim]: +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:00:23 [Zakim]: +[Fujitsu]
15:00:30 [FrankMcCabe]: zakim, fujitsu is me
15:00:30 [Zakim]: +FrankMcCabe; got it
15:00:36 [Zakim]: +David_Hirtle
15:01:01 [Darko]: Darko has joined #rif
15:01:13 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:01:13 [MoZ]: Zakim, who is muted ?
15:01:14 [Zakim]: I see MoZ, Francois, IanH, PaulaP, Allen_Ginsberg, David_Hirtle muted
15:01:16 [csma]: scribe: philippeB
15:01:25 [PhilippeB]: Zakim, mute me
15:01:25 [Zakim]: Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted
15:01:45 [csma]: zakim, who is on the call?
15:01:45 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MoZ (muted), Francois (muted), Sandro, Philippe_Bonnard (muted), csma, Chris_Welty, IanH (muted), PaulaP (muted), Harold, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:01:48 [Zakim]: ... (muted), FrankMcCabe, David_Hirtle (muted), MarkusK (muted)
15:01:55 [SaidTabet]: SaidTabet has joined #RIF
15:02:23 [Zakim]: +Darko_Anicic
15:02:29 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:02:43 [Zakim]: +Said_Tabet
15:02:47 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:02:54 [SaidTabet]: zakim, mute me
15:02:54 [Zakim]: Said_Tabet should now be muted
15:02:55 [PhilippeB]: CSMA: next meeting on thusday
15:03:04 [Darko]: zakim, mute me
15:03:04 [Zakim]: Darko_Anicic should now be muted
15:03:23 [Zakim]: +??P46
15:03:24 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P46)
15:03:36 [sandro]: [DONE] ACTION: Christian will investigate RIF Telecon overlapping with DAWG/SPARQL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action04]
15:03:38 [Zakim]: + +1.973.473.aabb
15:03:55 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, aabb is me
15:03:59 [Zakim]: +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:04:07 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
15:04:07 [Zakim]: LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:04:21 [PhilippeB]: csma: overlapping with SPARQL. Done.
15:05:05 [sandro]: PhilippeB, you can let me take care of recording which actions are done or not done.
15:05:13 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, unmute me
15:05:13 [Zakim]: LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
15:05:17 [sandro]: (I'm set up to cut & paste them)
15:05:27 [PhilippeB]: csam: proposal to accept the last minute. proposed to postponed
15:05:38 [LeoraMorgenstern]: about the minutes --- some action items weren't there
15:06:27 [sandro]: ACTION Leora: set up draft proposal on what we mean by FOL
15:06:38 [sandro]: ACTION Leora: Write up CSF for FOL
15:06:48 [sandro]: (these were from last time, but not recorded.)
15:06:50 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
15:06:50 [Zakim]: LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:07:05 [sandro]: csma: We'll put those in retro-actively.
15:07:14 [MalaMehrotra]: MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
15:07:25 [Zakim]: -Sandro
15:07:54 [Zakim]: +Mala_Mehrotra
15:08:24 [PhilippeB]: csma: f2f meeting 4, last day for proposal
15:08:44 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:09:37 [Deborah_Nichols]: Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:09:50 [sandro]: ACTION: Sandro set up straw-poll on F2F4 (MITRE - 3 different dates - and Peter/ISWC)
15:10:20 [csma]: q?
15:10:24 [Zakim]: +Deborah_Nichols
15:11:04 [PhilippeB]: Chris: straw-poll, indicate the preference between the 4 proposals
15:11:04 [csma]: ack deb
15:11:49 [PaulaP]: one vote per organization?
15:12:06 [PaulaP]: ok
15:12:21 [PhilippeB]: csma: Straw-poll -> it is not a vote, just possibilities indication
15:13:10 [sandro]: Deborah_Nichols: Will we have phone call-in ability for F2F3?
15:13:31 [sandro]: [DONE] ACTION: Sandro to set up registration page for F2F3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-rif-minutes.html#action03]
15:13:33 [PhilippeB]: csma: sandro action regarding the transportation
15:13:35 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38457/f2f3reg/
15:13:45 [csma]: q?
15:13:47 [PhilippeB]: sandro: action done
15:14:17 [johnhall]: johnhall has joined #rif
15:14:47 [johnhall]: sorry, can't get on audio yet
15:14:49 [PhilippeB]: csma: a form per individual, not organization.
15:15:20 [MoZ]: csma, me too, i'm interest by telcon ability
15:15:31 [edbark]: edbark has joined #rif
15:15:33 [sandro]: Paula: I think we'll have a conference phone open the whole day, but I'm not sure.
15:15:35 [PhilippeB]: paula: phone possibiities not set yet
15:15:47 [SaidTabet]: same question for IRC please
15:16:00 [sandro]: ACTION: Paula to check on phone-call-in capability, and if we'll have a speaker phone, and network?
15:16:02 [PhilippeB]: ACTION: paula checking phone possibilities and speaker phone
15:16:10 [PhilippeB]: csma: what about IRC ?
15:16:18 [sandro]: rrsagent, drop action 5
15:16:20 [Zakim]: +Ed_Barkmeyer
15:16:29 [PhilippeB]: ACTION: paula check IRC too
15:17:07 [sandro]: topic: Liaisons
15:17:07 [MoZ]: liason with Xquery is difficult
15:17:14 [MoZ]: because of overlapping
15:17:26 [sandro]: ack MoZ
15:18:07 [Zakim]: +Gary_Hallmark
15:18:43 [PhilippeB]: moz: XQuery and XSL telcon in the same time ...?. nduce probleme of liaison with XQuery
15:18:59 [sandro]: zakim, mute MoZ
15:18:59 [Zakim]: MoZ should now be muted
15:19:53 [csma]: ack john
15:20:24 [Zakim]: -Ed_Barkmeyer
15:20:38 [GaryHallmark]: GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:21:05 [PhilippeB]: csma: Design constraint
15:21:14 [Zakim]: +Ed_Barkmeyer
15:21:21 [PhilippeB]: csma: sandro name of pure prolog
15:21:46 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Horn_Logic
15:22:35 [PhilippeB]: sandor: propsal of a name -> "horn prolog"
15:22:36 [csma]: q?
15:22:41 [FrankMcCabe]: I think ordered horn logic is better
15:22:53 [sandro]: ack Hassan
15:23:01 [Hassan]: Zakim, unmute me
15:23:01 [Zakim]: Hassan_Ait-Kaci was not muted, Hassan
15:24:33 [JosDeRoo]: JosDeRoo has joined #rif
15:24:38 [Harold]: q+
15:25:09 [Francois]: Francois has joined #rif
15:25:21 [Francois]: +q
15:25:31 [Francois]: q+
15:26:05 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:26:14 [johnhall]: zakim, ipcaller is me
15:26:14 [Zakim]: +johnhall; got it
15:26:24 [johnhall]: zakim, mute me
15:26:24 [Zakim]: johnhall should now be muted
15:26:53 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:27:00 [MoZ]: +1 ordered horn clauses
15:27:29 [IanH]: -1 to calling it a logic!
15:27:40 [Zakim]: +Michael_Kifer
15:28:05 [edbark]: I like Horn Prolog == Horn intersect Prolog
15:28:26 [Francois]: zakim, please unmute me
15:28:26 [Zakim]: Francois should no longer be muted
15:28:36 [Francois]: zxakim, mute me
15:28:42 [Francois]: zakim, mute me
15:28:42 [Zakim]: Francois should now be muted
15:28:49 [Francois]: zakim, unmute me
15:28:49 [Zakim]: Francois should no longer be muted
15:29:25 [FrankMcCabe]: I think that the subset that you are interested in is sometimes called "clean prolog"
15:29:41 [csma]: q?
15:29:45 [Harold]: Ian, so you also don't like linear 'logic' :-)
15:29:48 [csma]: ack harol
15:29:48 [FrankMcCabe]: q+
15:30:00 [csma]: ack franc
15:30:15 [Francois]: zakim, unmute me
15:30:15 [Zakim]: Francois was not muted, Francois
15:31:26 [Harold]: What about "Sequential Horn Clauses"? Does not mention 'logic'.
15:32:10 [sandro]: "Sequential Horn Clauses with Prolog Syntax"
15:32:20 [Harold]: Fine with me!
15:32:29 [PhilippeB]: csma: prolog -> to have a concrete syntax
15:32:41 [csma]: q?
15:32:45 [PhilippeB]: francois: have a full compatibility with prolog
15:32:48 [MoZ]: everybody agree to have "Horn" in the name
15:32:54 [Francois]: zakim, please mute me
15:32:54 [Zakim]: Francois should now be muted
15:33:16 [Francois]: I am not at all speaking in favour of a full compatibility with Prolog
15:33:23 [csma]: ack franck
15:33:30 [csma]: ack frank
15:33:31 [edbark]: zakim q+
15:33:53 [Francois]: I sam saying referring to the name Prolog would suggest a full compatibility with a programming language -- someting beyond what we can achieve in 1 year.
15:34:03 [Francois]: Call it "Horn Clauses"!!!!
15:34:12 [csma]: q?
15:34:55 [csma]: zakim, who is talking?
15:35:00 [sandro]: ed Barkmeyer
15:35:05 [Zakim]: csma, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Mala_Mehrotra (54%), csma (5%)
15:35:11 [Francois]: q+
15:35:27 [MoZ]: MoZ prefer the extension of horn as the subseting or Prolog
15:35:34 [Zakim]: +Jos_De_Roo
15:36:13 [MalaMehrotra]: 01#
15:36:53 [sandro]: zakim, who is muted?
15:36:53 [Zakim]: I see MoZ, Francois, Philippe_Bonnard, IanH, PaulaP, Allen_Ginsberg, David_Hirtle, MarkusK, Darko_Anicic, Said_Tabet, Dave_Reynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, Deborah_Nichols,
15:36:56 [Zakim]: ... Ed_Barkmeyer, johnhall muted
15:37:07 [MoZ]: zakim, who is unmuted?
15:37:07 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, MoZ.
15:37:13 [Francois]: Can I say one more word?
15:37:51 [csma]: q?
15:37:57 [Francois]: zakim, unmute me
15:37:57 [Zakim]: Francois should no longer be muted
15:38:05 [csma]: ack franc
15:38:23 [csma]: zakim, who is talking?
15:38:35 [Zakim]: csma, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Francois (27%), Mala_Mehrotra (63%)
15:38:40 [PhilippeB]: francois: need smthing horn logic with a prolog like syntax.
15:39:01 [EvanWallace]: EvanWallace has joined #rif
15:39:18 [sandro]: q+ to respond!
15:39:42 [PhilippeB]: francois: choose declarative semantics and not a procedural semantics.
15:39:49 [csma]: q?
15:39:51 [sandro]: Francois: Just give RIF a simple declarative Semantics
15:39:56 [Francois]: zakim, please mute me
15:39:56 [Zakim]: Francois should now be muted
15:40:44 [Francois]: I do not understand Sandro's viewpoint.
15:41:19 [Francois]: I would like SAndro ti write down hius viewpoint.
15:41:32 [Francois]: I'll wirte my view point down.
15:41:38 [sandro]: Sandro: I'm not saying RIF should have procedural semantics, I'm saying we need to show how to use RIF to exchange rules in languages which do have procedural semantics.
15:41:39 [Hassan]: +1
15:41:42 [MoZ]: zakim, who is making noise
15:41:42 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is making noise', MoZ
15:41:45 [MoZ]: zakim, who is making noise?
15:41:55 [Hassan]: +1 on moving on
15:41:57 [Zakim]: MoZ, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Mala_Mehrotra (34%), csma (81%)
15:42:03 [JosDeRoo]: Zakim, mute me
15:42:03 [Zakim]: Jos_De_Roo should now be muted
15:42:03 [sandro]: zakim, mute MalaMehrotra
15:42:05 [Zakim]: Mala_Mehrotra should now be muted
15:42:23 [Francois]: Sandro: THen why piuck up the very old lady Prolog is and not one of the young and sexy business rule languages?
15:42:28 [PhilippeB]: csma: new requirement on RDF triple supported by RIF ?
15:42:59 [DaveReynolds]: ack me
15:43:01 [sandro]: Francois, because we all more-or-less know Prolog.
15:43:05 [MalaMehrotra]: zakim, mute me
15:43:05 [Zakim]: Mala_Mehrotra was already muted, MalaMehrotra
15:43:21 [csma]: q?
15:43:31 [sandro]: ack sandro
15:43:31 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to respond!
15:43:31 [Francois]: Sandro, who is "we", the academic crowd or the Business Rule uses?
15:43:32 [csma]: ack sandro
15:43:34 [Allen]: q+
15:43:51 [Allen]: zakim, unmute me
15:43:51 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
15:43:53 [sandro]: Francois, "we" is the 22 people on this call.
15:43:57 [csma]: ack allen
15:44:30 [Francois]: Do we design a RIF for the 22 people on this call? Or do we want people out there to use it and make the Semantic WQeb a reality?
15:44:33 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/The_RIF_Core_must_be_able_to_accept_RDF_triples_as_data
15:45:20 [sandro]: Dave: The condition part of the a rule could match RDF triples
15:46:48 [sandro]: csma: doesn't that mean RIF should have the query power of SPARQL
15:46:57 [PhilippeB]: csma: accepting RDF triple as data -> SPQRQL query embeddabke in RIF ?
15:47:14 [sandro]: dave: it's more a subset of sparql -- the triple-match part
15:47:44 [csma]: q?
15:47:44 [sandro]: dave: reuqirement leaves open whether rdf data is translated or not
15:48:16 [sandro]: dave: like jena rules, cwm, euler, ....
15:48:40 [sandro]: csma: any consequences of accepting this requirement?
15:48:46 [PhilippeB]: csma: what consequence on RIF expression ?
15:49:18 [sandro]: csma: do we mean: any rif-compliant application, receiving a ruleset that referes to RDF triples should be able to process them?
15:49:26 [PhilippeB]: csma: any application receiving RIF should be able to process RDF triple ?
15:50:39 [sandro]: dave: cf RDF Compatibiliy pages --- binary predicates map to RDF triples; or a single "triple" predicate -- providing either of these would meet this requirement.
15:51:10 [sandro]: (I find myself needing to see some designs before I can really understand CSMA's questions)
15:51:14 [sandro]: q+
15:51:25 [csma]: ack sandro
15:52:39 [Allen]: q+
15:52:46 [JosDeRoo]: zakim, unmute me
15:52:46 [Zakim]: Jos_De_Roo should no longer be muted
15:52:48 [JosDeRoo]: q:
15:53:11 [DaveReynolds]: q+
15:53:11 [sandro]: csma/sandro: as phrased this requirement is perhaps too broad to be useful in distinquishing between designs.
15:53:19 [csma]: ack allen
15:53:21 [JosDeRoo]: q+
15:53:46 [PhilippeB]: allen: compatibility with RDF important.
15:54:01 [sandro]: Allen: maybe there's a CSF here about RDF-compatibility.
15:54:40 [csma]: ack dave
15:55:12 [sandro]: Dave: I agree, in my strawman breakdown I had "RDF Compatibility" as the 3rd CSF. This was one part of that.
15:55:15 [csma]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/0005.html
15:55:27 [PhilippeB]: dave: 1) RIF should accepte RDF triple as data, 2) ?
15:55:44 [sandro]: Dave: A concrete example being an XML Schema for rules? No, this is not about the syntax of RIF.
15:56:11 [sandro]: q+ To ask about RDF/XML Parser
15:56:21 [PhilippeB]: csma: impact on implementing of the design of RIF ?
15:57:11 [csma]: ack josd
15:57:40 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
15:57:40 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:57:46 [sandro]: JosDeRoo: also RDF simple entailment rules? are they covered by this requirement? RDFS-Closure
15:58:19 [DaveReynolds]: q+
15:58:32 [Francois]: q+
15:58:34 [FrankMcCabe]: q+
15:59:38 [csma]: ack sandro
15:59:38 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to ask about RDF/XML Parser
16:00:55 [edbark]: zakim, q+
16:00:56 [Zakim]: I see DaveReynolds, Francois, FrankMcCabe, edbark on the speaker queue
16:01:06 [PhilippeB]: csma: volunteer for a use case on accepting RDF triple ?
16:01:10 [sandro]: sandro: I'd like to see this tied in with a use case, a scenario where RDF data is used and matters.
16:01:20 [PaulaP]: there is a use case concerning access to RDF and XML data
16:01:34 [csma]: ack dave
16:01:40 [pfps]: pfps has joined #rif
16:01:43 [Francois]: PaulaP is right. We already have such a use case
16:01:54 [PaulaP]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Rule-Based_Combined_Access_to_XML_and_RDF_Data
16:02:31 [sandro]: sandro: And I'd like to see whether or not we need an RDF/XML parser in all RIF software
16:02:32 [PaulaP]: contains examples of rules
16:02:42 [sandro]: q?
16:02:53 [Francois]: zakim, unmute me
16:02:56 [Zakim]: Francois should no longer be muted
16:02:57 [MoZ]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Interchanging_Rule_Extensions_to_OWL
16:03:04 [Zakim]: +??P21
16:03:10 [pfps]: zakim, ??p21 is me
16:03:18 [Zakim]: +pfps; got it
16:03:42 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:03:52 [csma]: ack franc
16:04:36 [PhilippeB]: francois: central feature. If no supported, RIF not for semantic web. behond prolog, having the semantic of RDF triple.
16:05:34 [Francois]: zakim, mute me
16:05:34 [Zakim]: Francois should now be muted
16:05:47 [Francois]: THanks Christian for clarifying!
16:06:36 [PhilippeB]: csma: dave should explicit the link between use case and requirement ?
16:07:21 [PaulaP]: the use case is not in the UCR document
16:07:32 [PhilippeB]: dave: requiement of the charter not covered by the current use case.
16:07:32 [Allen]: probably in the last one: Vocabularly Mapping for Data Integration
16:09:42 [Francois]: +1 with RIF accepting RDF data witrh its semantics.
16:10:18 [edbark]: I think I will object to Sandro's rqmt for RDF parser
16:10:30 [sandro]: why, edbark?
16:10:31 [PhilippeB]: csma: specif requirement on RIF ? need XML-RDF parser ?
16:10:35 [Francois]: Christian: the specific requirement is to work out a semantics covering Blank Nodes. This is a tough issue. But the only tough issue.
16:10:36 [csma]: qq?
16:10:39 [edbark]: +1 to accepting RIF data with its semantics
16:10:40 [csma]: q?
16:10:41 [MoZ]: csma there is a UCR with "Requirements on the rule interchange format include semantic compatibility with OWL-DL and RDF"
16:11:31 [edbark]: Sandro, it's not about syntax, it's about assertions
16:11:43 [PhilippeB]: frank: impossbiel situation. The semantic of prolog is incompatible of RDF.
16:11:52 [Francois]: q+
16:12:10 [Francois]: What means "The semantic of prolog is incompatible of RDF"?
16:12:16 [Francois]: s it is defined, it is different.
16:12:24 [Francois]: ut one can make both of them compatible.
16:13:32 [Hassan]: +1 with Frank
16:13:56 [csma]: ack frank
16:13:58 [Francois]: q?
16:14:04 [DaveReynolds]: q-
16:14:07 [csma]: ack edb
16:14:16 [IanH]: Then we are done already aren't we? Surely exchanging rules is trivial if we don't care about interoperability.
16:15:00 [DaveReynolds]: +1 to IanH
16:15:04 [Francois]: +1 with accepting RDF assertions with their semantics
16:15:27 [Francois]: zakim, unmute me
16:15:27 [Zakim]: Francois should no longer be muted
16:15:34 [csma]: ack franc
16:16:43 [PhilippeB]: francois: lookat the data : XML, RDF. What kind of rules we need ? prolog syntax (its idea) working with XML, RDF and OWL datas.
16:17:23 [edbark]: +1 to Francois
16:19:51 [PhilippeB]: francois: cna't take old rule language. What is is the meaning of rules ? deduction rules, DB constraints (OWL, RDF), rules realizing changing (production rule).
16:19:57 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:20:05 [MalaMehrotra]: MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
16:21:58 [PaulaP]: there are requirements regarding the different types of rules
16:22:09 [PaulaP]: on the design constraints wiki page
16:22:22 [csma]: q?
16:22:39 [sandro]: ACTION: Francois write up what he's saying on the DesignConstraints page
16:23:30 [MalaMehrotra]: MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
16:27:23 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:27:23 [csma]: q?
16:27:29 [DaveReynolds]: q-
16:28:05 [csma]: ack dave
16:28:13 [MoZ]: Zakim who is making the noise
16:28:43 [Francois]: q+
16:29:13 [csma]: ack franc
16:29:13 [Francois]: zakim, please unmute me
16:29:14 [Zakim]: Francois was not muted, Francois
16:31:40 [PhilippeB]: francois: need clear declarative semantics. RIF should be more abstract than traditionnal programming language.
16:31:54 [FrankMcCabe]: q+
16:32:07 [johnhall]: Sorry, have to go.
16:32:20 [Zakim]: -johnhall
16:32:46 [sandro]: Uh oh, we're over time. And I have to say, I'm finding this meeting too long as it is. :-/
16:32:57 [MichaelKifer]: q+
16:33:17 [Zakim]: -IanH
16:33:18 [PhilippeB]: francois: need to follow "SQL properties" : declarative but not too procedural.. ?
16:33:24 [sandro]: Francois: I'm 99% sure no one in the Working Group wants procedural semantics for RIF.
16:33:52 [csma]: ack frank
16:34:23 [sandro]: Frank: We're not necessarily designing a new language, we're talking about interchanging existing rule languages.
16:34:27 [csma]: ack michaelk
16:34:37 [sandro]: MichaelKifer: I propose we resolve to never mention Prolog in the telecon.
16:34:48 [Francois]: Phlippe: I was saying SQL's semantics leaves room for several procedural interpretartions that all are correct.
16:35:09 [PhilippeB]: Sorry for miss interpreting your thoughts !
16:35:20 [sandro]: ...: It's an illformed question. If you send me some prolog text, what should I do with it? How many answers will it give before it perhaps goes into a loop where it doesn't terminate.
16:35:51 [sandro]: PhilippeB, you're doing very well -- this is an extremely hard meeting to scribe.
16:36:07 [Francois]: Sandro and Michael: Look at practical Use Cases like EU-Rent. The points are right but academic.
16:36:14 [Harold]: q+
16:36:19 [sandro]: Move to adjourn!
16:36:24 [Hassan]: +1
16:36:30 [JosDeRoo]: Francois, the rules I meant are http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#RDFSRules
16:36:39 [MichaelKifer]: q-
16:36:42 [Zakim]: -Gary_Hallmark
16:36:43 [Zakim]: -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:36:44 [Zakim]: -Said_Tabet
16:36:44 [PhilippeB]: OK !
16:36:45 [Allen]: Bye
16:36:46 [MalaMehrotra]: MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
16:36:47 [sandro]: RRSAgent, make minutes
16:36:47 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:36:49 [Zakim]: -MarkusK
16:36:50 [Zakim]: -FrankMcCabe
16:36:53 [Zakim]: -Allen_Ginsberg
16:36:54 [PaulaP]: bye
16:36:56 [Zakim]: -Deborah_Nichols
16:37:00 [Zakim]: -PaulaP
16:37:01 [Zakim]: -MoZ
16:37:02 [Zakim]: -Ed_Barkmeyer
16:37:02 [Zakim]: -Dave_Reynolds
16:37:03 [MoZ]: bye
16:37:09 [Zakim]: -Jos_De_Roo
16:37:14 [Zakim]: -David_Hirtle
16:37:14 [Darko]: - Darko
16:37:16 [Zakim]: -Michael_Kifer
16:37:18 [Zakim]: -Harold
16:37:20 [Zakim]: -Darko_Anicic
16:37:20 [Zakim]: -LeoraMorgenstern
16:37:33 [Zakim]: -Francois
16:37:36 [Zakim]: -Sandro
16:37:41 [Zakim]: -Mala_Mehrotra
16:37:49 [PhilippeB]: Zakimn, unmute me
16:38:15 [PhilippeB]: Zakim, unmute me
16:38:15 [Zakim]: Philippe_Bonnard should no longer be muted
16:38:38 [Zakim]: -pfps
16:38:40 [csma]: http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-rif-minutes.html
16:39:17 [csma]: zakim, who is on the call?
16:39:17 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Philippe_Bonnard, csma, Chris_Welty
16:41:12 [Zakim]: -Philippe_Bonnard
16:42:41 [Zakim]: -Chris_Welty
16:42:42 [Zakim]: -csma
16:42:42 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:42:43 [Zakim]: Attendees were MoZ, Sandro, Philippe_Bonnard, Francois, csma, Chris_Welty, IanH, PaulaP, Allen_Ginsberg, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, FrankMcCabe, David_Hirtle, MarkusK, Darko_Anicic,
16:42:47 [Zakim]: ... Said_Tabet, Dave_Reynolds, +1.973.473.aabb, LeoraMorgenstern, Mala_Mehrotra, Deborah_Nichols, Ed_Barkmeyer, Gary_Hallmark, johnhall, Michael_Kifer, Jos_De_Roo, pfps
17:19:27 [csma]: csma has left #rif
19:00:34 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rif