08:19:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18nits
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08:19:38 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n ITS working group (Oxford f2f)
08:19:40 <fsasaki> chair: Yves
08:19:42 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
08:19:55 <fsasaki> present: Christian, Felix, Sebastian, Yves
08:20:24 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0024.html
08:20:41 <fsasaki> topic: agenda check
08:28:19 <fsasaki> sebastian: one additional topic: what does an implementation mean?
08:28:57 <fsasaki> yves: that is handled in the conformance section, basically it is "use selection" for the data category
08:29:17 <fsasaki> .. we handle that during the "implementation" topic
08:29:23 <fsasaki> topic: versioning
08:29:30 <fsasaki> yves: three proposals: 
08:29:40 <fsasaki> .. 1)version attribute at the root
08:30:15 <fsasaki> .. 2) same as 1), but if the attribute is absent, it is "1.0"
08:30:24 <fsasaki> .. 2) version attribute at the <rules> element
08:32:36 <fsasaki> s/3)/2) version attribute at the <rules> element/3) version attribute at the root, or if there is a <rules> element, version attribute at <rules>
08:32:48 <fsasaki> zakim, make log public
08:33:42 <fsasaki> rrsagent, make log public
08:34:47 <fsasaki> Sebastian: two issues: default for versioning, and position of versioning
08:35:34 <fsasaki> .. how about XInclude? Where do you process the version?
08:36:21 <fsasaki> .. do you process this before or after inclusion?
08:39:21 <fsasaki> felix: we process what is in XML 1.0, which includes entities, but not DITA or XInclude etc.
08:39:34 <fsasaki> sebastian: we should articulate that in the draft
08:40:18 <fsasaki> action: editors to write a paragraph about relation of inclusion of external information (XInclude, DITA inclusion)versus ITS processing
08:42:49 <fsasaki> sebastian: versioning again: implimentation of version attributes if they don't have a fixed root
08:43:01 <fsasaki> yves: for example DITA has no fixed root
09:01:33 <fsasaki> yves: summary of discussion: version attribute should be at the root element
09:02:15 <fsasaki> example: <x its:version="1.0"><its:rules...</x>
09:02:29 <fsasaki> <x> is a root element
09:02:39 <fsasaki> <its:rules version="1.0"
09:02:44 <fsasaki> <its:rules> is root element
09:04:18 <fsasaki> felix: define the version as a global version attribute
09:05:02 <fsasaki> sebastian: you would need to modify the whole schema to do that
09:07:47 <fsasaki> yves: no consensus yet, we handle the topic at the end of the meeting or later again
09:08:15 <fsasaki> topic: processing expectations for directionality or ruby
09:12:11 <fsasaki> yves: felix proposed to point to the W3C ruby TR, and for directionality HTML
09:14:10 <fsasaki> s/HTML/XHTML 2.0
09:16:55 <fsasaki> christian: what will happen if an editor encountors ruby markup?
09:17:19 <fsasaki> yves: it depends if the editor wants to complie with the markup part or the processing part
09:17:41 <fsasaki> .. if the latter is the case, it has to be compliant with external specs
09:19:57 <fsasaki> felix: I don't propose s.t. new, but to see if you are fine with the current spec
09:21:28 <fsasaki> yves: we don't have a processor for the global rules of ruby and ITS
09:22:02 <fsasaki> .. we might have to drop at some point the selection mechanism and replace it with real mapping
09:26:04 <fsasaki> action: editors to make conformance of ruby and directionality clearer (esp. with regard to processing of global rules)
09:31:23 <fsasaki> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:31:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
09:44:48 <fsasaki> action: editors to repair http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf to give the right namespace
09:46:04 <fsasaki> action: "such as img with alt,": editors to add markup to "alt"
09:47:11 <fsasaki> topic: bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2915 "relationship between host vocabulary markup data"
09:47:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
09:49:18 <fsasaki> christian: description on how to associate the host markup with ITS
09:54:41 <fsasaki> yves: question if there is more information in ITS or in the host vocabulary with respect to a data category
09:55:15 <fsasaki> .. if it is the same amount of information, it is fine to associate both, if it is different, it is maby not possible
09:57:00 <fsasaki> .. this is a general problem of ITS. The specific one for term: what is a term? 
09:57:56 <fsasaki> .. there is no agreement on what a term is
09:59:30 <fsasaki> action: editors to repair numbering of conformance clauses in sec. http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expectations
10:00:39 <fsasaki> yves: we need examples for terms in sec http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#terms
10:01:27 <fsasaki> action: write examples of what a term is, and what it is used for 
10:01:51 <fsasaki> yves: dt element in XHTML is an index marker. 
10:02:15 <fsasaki> sebastian: TEI has a term element.
10:02:45 <fsasaki> .. we need a better example for example 22
10:03:02 <fsasaki> action: all to make a better example for example 22
10:03:16 <rahtz> TEI:   <desc>contains a single-word, multi-word, or symbolic designation
10:03:18 <rahtz>   which is regarded as a technical term.</desc>
10:03:58 <rahtz> TEI example: A computational device that infers structure from grammatical
10:03:59 <rahtz> strings of words is known as a <term>parser</term>, and much
10:04:01 <rahtz> of the history of NLP over the last 20 years has been occupied
10:04:03 <rahtz> with the design of parsers
10:05:14 <fsasaki> christian: what if the host vocabulary has a different data type?
10:05:18 <rahtz> its:termRef="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parser"
10:05:23 <fsasaki> .. e.g. anyURI versus NMTOKEN
10:09:06 <fsasaki> felix: that would not work
10:11:44 <fsasaki> .. is that only a problem for anyURI, that is all pointer attributes, ref attributes?
10:14:08 <fsasaki> christian: how about the pointer attributes? Do they select all content, e.g. including child elements or not?
10:16:55 <fsasaki> sebastian: its:termRef="http://example.com/termdatabase/#x142539"/> : what more information would you need here?
10:17:29 <fsasaki> christian: people want to know that this reference is e.g. a password secured java data base
10:18:35 <fsasaki> sebastian: the storage mechanism is hard to grap here
10:18:56 <fsasaki> yves: it might be different with termRefPointer, e.g. you want to be sure that it is an URI
10:20:59 <fsasaki> action: all to provide an example for termRefPointer for the draft
10:21:39 <rahtz> "To point a linl to a term reference in the current document, a termRefPointer can be used"
10:21:43 <rahtz> s/l/k/
10:22:08 <rahtz> "To point to a link to term reference in the current documentation, a termRefPointer can be used"
10:22:40 <fsasaki> action: editors to implement Sebastians change for termRefPointer definition
10:22:44 <rahtz> "To point to a link to a term reference in the current document, a termRefPointer can be used"
10:23:19 <fsasaki> sebastian: example: dt with href attribute
10:23:55 <rahtz> example: We may define <term xml:id="TDPV" rend="sc">discoursal point of view</term>
10:23:57 <rahtz> as <gloss target="#TDPV">the relationship, expressed through discourse
10:23:59 <rahtz> structure, between the implied author or some other addresser,
10:24:00 <rahtz> and the fiction.</gloss>
10:25:53 <rahtz> We may define <term target="#TDPV">discoursal point of view</term>
10:25:54 <rahtz> as <gloss xml:id="TDPV">the relationship, expressed through discourse
10:25:56 <rahtz> structure, between the implied author or some other addresser,
10:25:57 <rahtz> and the fiction.</gloss>
10:27:51 <fsasaki> summary of associating discussion: If you have semantics / processing expectations in the host vocabulary 
10:29:17 <fsasaki> .. which are an addition to what ITS specifies, the assocation can be done
10:31:33 <fsasaki> christian: I am fine with what is informally described at http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#d3e180
10:33:20 <fsasaki> yves: "Associating existing markup with ITS data categories can be only done if the processing expecations are the same
10:33:36 <fsasaki> .. or if the processing expecations of the host markup cover at least the same as ITS"
10:34:37 <fsasaki> action: editor change "Mapping of ITS Data Categories to Existing Markup" to "Associating ITS Data Categories with Existing Markup"
10:35:36 <fsasaki> action: editors to add Yves sentence about associating ITS with existing markup to sec http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping
10:35:43 <rahtz> <its:termRule selector="//tei:term" termRefPointer="@target"/>
10:36:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
10:42:33 <fsasaki> felix: as for anyURI in the "ref" attributes, we can just say the types should be compatible
10:42:57 <fsasaki> .. as for XPath expressions in pointer attributes, we can say "the interpretation is the same as the non pointer functionality"
10:46:25 <fsasaki> sebastian: we need to make clear that all pointer attributes are relative XPath expressions
10:46:37 <fsasaki> action: editors to make clear that all pointer attributes are relative XPath expressions
10:50:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
10:51:14 <fsasaki> topic: metadata for rules, see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3068
10:53:01 <fsasaki> sebastian: is rules an "island" in the host vocabulary, or is it interleaved. Goes back to the question on <rules>
10:53:38 <fsasaki> .. e.g. the question "who writes the rules?", or "how are they interleaving?"
10:54:12 <fsasaki> .. you are inventing a new markup language
10:54:32 <fsasaki> christian: I would like to see versioning information interleaved with the meta data
10:55:55 <fsasaki> .. I see a need for having meta data
10:57:12 <fsasaki> felix: what would you choose? SAP manual, TEI header, dublin core etc.?
10:57:28 <fsasaki> christian: we could use whatever you like, or we define at least a standardized set of meta data
10:58:26 <fsasaki> sebastian: should rules be part of meta data, or the other way around?
10:58:34 <fsasaki> felix: it would take a lot time to do this
10:58:50 <fsasaki> sebastian: we could describe as a technique "use dublin core for meta data"
10:59:04 <fsasaki> christian: putting a remark in the techniques document would be fine
10:59:44 <fsasaki> yves: what vocabulary would that be? ITS or s.t. else?
11:00:01 <fsasaki> christian: we could stay away from ITS, just say "use what you like"
11:01:16 <fsasaki> sebastian: if the rules are embedded within a bigger document, are they embedded within the ITS rules?
11:01:22 <fsasaki> christian: in the ITS rules
11:02:08 <fsasaki> sebastian: we have identification with xml:id, no need to invent that again
11:02:54 <fsasaki> .. is it o.k. to have <rules> as an island in another document? if that is possible, you could have all kinds of metadata in that
11:03:27 <fsasaki> sebastian: we could say "it is good practice to have a time stamp on your file"
11:03:36 <fsasaki> .. and refer people to the techniques document
11:04:16 <fsasaki> yves: does it need to be in the ITS tagset draft or in the techniques document?
11:10:32 <fsasaki> sebastian: processing of the xlink attribute is like descendant-or-self in XPath
11:12:29 <fsasaki> action: editors to change example 13 to add meta data to it
11:13:10 <fsasaki> topic: Indicator of constraints
11:14:58 <fsasaki> yves: I would say "version 1.1"
11:16:47 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3039 check constraints of global rules
11:19:48 <fsasaki> sebastian: we could embedd these examples in the schema
11:21:20 <fsasaki> yves: is it possible to process this separatly?
11:21:31 <fsasaki> sebastian: yes
11:24:47 <fsasaki> christian: will we provide a web service for checking these constraints?
11:27:48 <fsasaki> felix: W3C has no resources for that :(
11:29:54 <fsasaki> action: Felix to write the constraints for pointer versus not pointer, to be implemented as schematron schema annotations, useable also separately
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12:35:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
12:38:04 <YvesS> YvesS has joined #i18nits
12:44:28 <fsasaki> yves: current  consensus: wait for comments on the spec
12:44:40 <fsasaki> topic: proposal for grouping rules
12:44:49 <fsasaki> topic: conformance section (again)
12:46:32 <fsasaki> "These conformance types are defined complementary. " -> "These conformance types complement each other. " 
12:48:22 <fsasaki> "subsections in Section 6: Description of Data Categories": this must also talk about sec. 5
12:50:14 <fsasaki> "All  local ITS attributes   should be declared at all elements which are part of the schema."
12:50:18 <fsasaki> yves: why this?
12:51:57 <fsasaki> sebastian: if you have valid XML documents, you don't need this
12:52:12 <fsasaki> felix: this conformance level is for schema authors, without the instance document
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12:58:09 <chriLi> Could we look at http://www.imsproject.org/metadata/mdbestv1p1.html#Conformance
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13:28:50 <fsasaki> yves: proposal: you have to implement one of the declarations: rules, at least one local attribute, ruby, span
13:40:56 <fsasaki> .. still have clause 1-1,3,4
13:41:01 <fsasaki> .. but not 1-2
13:41:49 <fsasaki> .. one additional clause / paragraph: an implementation which implements everything has "complete" markup declarations
13:43:38 <chriLi> How about: A schema can fullfil one of two conformance levels: full or partial.
13:44:19 <chriLi> Full conformance is defined as follows ... Partial conformance ...
13:45:06 <chriLi> And have a note which explains the rationale and advantage.
13:48:10 <chriLi> Ex. Advantage of partial conformance: Do not pollute ...
13:52:45 <fsasaki> action: do rewording of conformance sec. 4.1 together
13:57:33 <fsasaki> sebastian: section 4.2: "generated or validated relying on"->"valid against"
14:01:48 <fsasaki> yves: "element within text" should not include child elements
14:02:07 <fsasaki> action: editors to change default selection for "element within text"
14:02:52 <fsasaki> action: editors to add a link to data category for conformance clause 2.3
14:13:58 <fsasaki> christian: how about not slicing global versus local selection?
14:14:08 <fsasaki> yves: people might want to use only one of them
14:15:00 <fsasaki> "it must process all of the XLink href  attributes found in the rules elements." -> "it must process an XLink href attribute found on a rules element"
14:20:16 <fsasaki> "Processing expecations are the information which are necessary to attach ITS information to one or more nodes in an XML document"
14:20:34 <fsasaki> (proposal by Christian / Sebastian)
14:21:59 <chriLi> ITS markup allows information to be attached to XML nodes. Processors need to compute the information which is attached to an XML nodes (or set of nodes) correctlly. 
14:24:39 <chriLi> Addition: Correct computation especially involves support for selection mechanism, defaults, and precedence.
14:29:37 <fsasaki> summary: MUST for processing at least one data category, and then 2-1 - 2-3 as a nested list
14:54:12 <fsasaki> christian: add a sentence to "description":
14:54:58 <fsasaki> .. "An implementation of a data category MUST (SHOULD?)make explicit what selection (global or local) it supports"
14:55:26 <chriLi> selections _and_ data categories?
14:56:49 <fsasaki> yves: for each datacategory: say you support it or not, and say which selection you support
14:57:11 <fsasaki> sebastian: how would a conformance statement look like?
14:57:36 <fsasaki> s/statement/claim
14:58:49 <fsasaki> sebastian: each conformance claim MUST have a matrix about datacat (yes/no), selection global (yes , no), selection local (yes, no)
15:24:19 <fsasaki> action: editors to add xml:id attributes to all div elements (to avoid automatically generated id attributes)
15:24:31 <fsasaki> topic: integrate conformance discussion in the draft
15:24:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
15:26:45 <YvesS> YvesS has joined #i18nits
15:31:02 <fsasaki> action: felix to clean up old change markup from the draft
15:48:02 <rahtz> rahtz has joined #i18nits
16:26:00 <fsasaki> action: discuss change of "may" to "should" at The markup may be valid against a schema which is conform to the conformance clauses in Section 4.1: Conformance Type 1: ITS Markup Declarations.
16:26:15 <chriLi> chriLi has joined #i18nits
16:47:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
16:56:14 <fsasaki> action: discuss moving the examples of ITS applications (editors etc.) in the conformance "normative" sub section
16:56:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
17:00:18 <fsasaki> topic: topics for tomorrow
17:00:31 <fsasaki> address http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2877
17:01:54 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3010
17:02:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
17:05:52 <fsasaki> rrsagent, bye
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> I see 21 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-actions.rdf :
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to write a paragraph about relation of inclusion of external information (XInclude, DITA inclusion)versus ITS processing [1]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T08-40-18
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to make conformance of ruby and directionality clearer (esp. with regard to processing of global rules) [2]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T09-26-04
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to repair http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf to give the right namespace [3]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T09-44-48
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: "such as img with alt,": editors to add markup to "alt" [4]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T09-46-04
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to repair numbering of conformance clauses in sec. http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expectations [5]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T09-59-30
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: write examples of what a term is, and what it is used for  [6]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T10-01-27
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: all to make a better example for example 22 [7]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T10-03-02
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: all to provide an example for termRefPointer for the draft [8]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T10-20-59
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to implement Sebastians change for termRefPointer definition [9]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T10-22-40
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editor change "Mapping of ITS Data Categories to Existing Markup" to "Associating ITS Data Categories with Existing Markup" [10]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T10-34-37
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to add Yves sentence about associating ITS with existing markup to sec http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping [11]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T10-35-36
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to make clear that all pointer attributes are relative XPath expressions [12]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T10-46-37
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to change example 13 to add meta data to it [13]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T11-12-29
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix to write the constraints for pointer versus not pointer, to be implemented as schematron schema annotations, useable also separately [14]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T11-29-54
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: do rewording of conformance sec. 4.1 together [15]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T13-52-45
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to change default selection for "element within text" [16]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T14-02-07
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to add a link to data category for conformance clause 2.3 [17]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T14-02-52
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to add xml:id attributes to all div elements (to avoid automatically generated id attributes) [18]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T15-24-19
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: felix to clean up old change markup from the draft [19]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T15-31-02
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: discuss change of "may" to "should" at The markup may be valid against a schema which is conform to the conformance clauses in Section 4.1: Conformance Type 1: ITS Markup Declarations. [20]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T16-26-00
17:05:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: discuss moving the examples of ITS applications (editors etc.) in the conformance "normative" sub section [21]
17:05:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc#T16-56-14