IRC log of htmltf on 2006-04-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:18:17 [RRSAgent]

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11:18:17 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc

11:18:40 [RalphS]

RalphS has changed the topic to: RDF-in-HTML TF; Ralph may be late due to broken-down train

11:18:57 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make log publci

11:19:08 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make log public

11:19:27 [Zakim]

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11:19:37 [RalphS]

zakim, this will be htmltf

11:19:37 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, RalphS

12:57:34 [RalphS]

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12:57:38 [Steven]

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12:57:44 [RalphS]

zakim, this will be html

12:57:44 [Zakim]

ok, RalphS; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

12:57:57 [Steven]

hi there

12:58:46 [RalphS]

RalphS has changed the topic to: RDF-in-HTML TF; agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0028.html

12:59:02 [RalphS]

Meeting: RDF-in-HTML TF

12:59:05 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0028.html

12:59:22 [RalphS]

Previous: 2006-04-10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0026.html

13:01:00 [MarkB_]

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13:01:00 [benadida]

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13:01:04 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started

13:01:11 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

13:01:18 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:01:18 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:01:19 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:01:31 [Zakim]

+Ralph

13:01:53 [Zakim]

+??P2

13:01:59 [MarkB_]

zakim, i am ?

13:01:59 [Zakim]

+MarkB_; got it

13:03:01 [RalphS]

Chair: Ben

13:03:08 [RalphS]

next meeting: Monday, 24 April

13:04:10 [RalphS]

Ben: to get 2nd WD of RDF/A Primer publishing approval at 8 May SWBPD telecon we need to distribute final editor's draft by Monday 24 April

13:04:48 [RalphS]

... I hope to distribute a draft by then

13:06:21 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben draft mail to Guus and David regarding continuation of HTML TF work

13:08:04 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben integrate Jeremy's actions into list of issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/10-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]

13:08:24 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark, Steven, and Ralph respond to Ben's off-list draft of response to Bjoern [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]

13:08:45 [RalphS]

-- done; Mark about to press 'send' on his commetns

13:08:52 [RalphS]

s/tns/nts/

13:09:03 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]

13:09:06 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:09:15 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03]

13:09:17 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:09:31 [RalphS]

Ben: likely done by next week after I integrate Mark's comments

13:09:44 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben update his bookmarklet for XHTML mode [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action12]

13:09:52 [RalphS]

Ben: this update was a lot of fun

13:10:01 [RalphS]

... works in Mozilla and Firefox, not 100% in Opera

13:10:22 [RalphS]

Steven: it used to work on Opera

13:10:40 [RalphS]

Ben: the DOM API changed slightly; it's supposed to be more conformant now

13:11:00 [RalphS]

... unfortunately, bookmarklet doesn't yet work in Safari

13:11:16 [RalphS]

Steven: seems to work on Ben's bookmark page but not on Ben's home page

13:12:09 [benadida]

http://ben.adida.net/index.xhtml

13:12:24 [RalphS]

Ben: you'll find two paragraphs on ^ that I've marked-up with <meta>

13:12:32 [RalphS]

... it turned out to be quite a bit easier than I had expected

13:14:00 [RalphS]

ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

13:14:03 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:14:20 [RalphS]

Steven: just needs more cycles from the editors

13:14:30 [RalphS]

... nothing the TF can really contribute to getting those cycles

13:15:10 [RalphS]

Mark: re Primer ...

13:15:27 [RalphS]

... where do Ben and Ralph see the spec itself going?

13:15:58 [RalphS]

Mark: we agreed that the normative spec for RDF/A would be part of the XHTML specification

13:16:04 [RalphS]

s/Mark:/Ben:/

13:16:24 [RalphS]

Mark: so if we're going to talk about XHTML 1 modules these need something to refer to

13:16:40 [RalphS]

Ben: they (we!) can refer to the primer

13:16:51 [RalphS]

... we have a syntax that is pretty darn good

13:16:57 [RalphS]

... and we now have to make it work in XHTML1

13:17:17 [RalphS]

... so we have to see how much the browser vendors will agree to implement

13:17:31 [RalphS]

Mark: we have to decide what it is that we call "RDF/A"

13:17:37 [RalphS]

... the primer cannot be the normative definition

13:17:52 [RalphS]

... can we revisit the other document? something more formal defining the attributes?

13:18:04 [RalphS]

Ben: it's OK to refer to the other document as input to the next WG

13:20:09 [RalphS]

Ralph: it would indeed be too bad to have to maintain normative specifications in two parallel documents; an XHTML2 WD and separate RDF/A and CURIE WDs

13:20:33 [RalphS]

... I look to the HTML WG to advise on where to most effectively work during the month of May

13:20:47 [RalphS]

Mark: there is some material from my IPTC work that ought to be added to the spec

13:21:21 [RalphS]

... did Ben do anything subconsciously when implementing his bookmarklet that hasn't yet made it into the spec?

13:21:33 [RalphS]

Ben: I really worked just from the Primer

13:21:49 [RalphS]

Mark: I think I could update the RDF/A spec next week

13:22:14 [RalphS]

Mark: the HTML WG needs the feedback on the reference document

13:25:02 [RalphS]

Steven: the XHTML2 editors' expectation is to integrate the RDF/A WD plus more recent agreements

13:25:21 [RalphS]

Ben: would it help for Mark to update the independent document that we have, or do you have it all swapped-in?

13:25:34 [RalphS]

Steven: I think I have it all swapped-in, but the results will need to be checked

13:25:48 [RalphS]

Ben: I want to be sure we spend the cycles we have in the right place

13:26:12 [RalphS]

Steven: the XHTML2 spec is changing in several places, not just in RDF/A

13:26:30 [RalphS]

Mark: I think we need a document that we are confident is up-to-date, and sooner rather than later

13:26:57 [RalphS]

... e.g. if "someone" decides they want to start adding RDF/A support to, say, Redland, we want them to have the right details

13:27:20 [RalphS]

Ben: what is going to help the HTML WG get the work out faster?

13:27:45 [RalphS]

Steven: it will help to have everything in one place, so it would not be wasted work

13:27:57 [RalphS]

... we have noticed in the past that we'd interpreted things differently

13:30:14 [RalphS]

Ralph: a possibility for Mark's proposed writing is to focus a normative proposal draft on an RDF/A XHTML 1.1 module

13:30:37 [RalphS]

... see proposed charter for SemWeb Deployment WG

13:30:53 [RalphS]

Mark: I wasn't thinking that a new spec draft had to be done quickly

13:31:11 [RalphS]

... just wanted to insure that we'd captured everything we'd agreed

13:31:21 [RalphS]

... and some recent IPTC work that isn't written down

13:32:29 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/swap3/deployment-charter.html draft SemWeb Deployment WG charter proposal [Member only]

13:32:51 [RalphS]

Topic: Marketing Proposal for RDF/A

13:33:19 [RalphS]

Ben: I have received feedback on the topic of a name change

13:33:25 [RalphS]

... the overwhelming advice is

13:33:41 [RalphS]

... the overwhelming advice is "if you're going to change the name, do it right away"

13:34:29 [MarkB_]

zakim, q+

13:34:29 [Zakim]

I see MarkB_ on the speaker queue

13:34:50 [RalphS]

Ben: I believe we need to address our main audience of HTML authors

13:35:18 [RalphS]

Mark: many strands in the email discussion

13:35:45 [RalphS]

... I'd like to identify two things; (1) a language and (2) a tagging process; an action

13:35:56 [RalphS]

... I don't have a problem calling the language "RDF/A"

13:36:12 [RalphS]

... the tagging process is above the language and I don't think we should call that "RDF/A"

13:36:36 [RalphS]

... Microformats is an approach, not a language

13:36:59 [RalphS]

... the "microformats" process can be summed-up in a few words

13:37:51 [RalphS]

... so we can talk technical details about the language separately from [high-level goals] such as "structured blogging"

13:38:19 [RalphS]

... it's much more important to come up with a phrase or word that describes this structured metadata

13:38:31 [RalphS]

[Ralph: +1 to Mark]

13:38:48 [RalphS]

Steven: there are plusses and minuses to using the name "RDF/A"

13:39:01 [RalphS]

... "RDF" is tainted in some parts of the community

13:39:22 [RalphS]

... but it could help to make it clear that RDF is a broad concept and is more than RDF/XML

13:39:54 [RalphS]

Ben: this could work well with Mark's second name; we need not mention RDF until people want to look deeply

13:39:59 [MarkB_]

zakim, q+ To mention a podcast I heard recently about microformats.

13:39:59 [Zakim]

I see RalphS, MarkB_ on the speaker queue

13:40:06 [RalphS]

Steven: think about "meta" and "link"

13:40:16 [RalphS]

... suggestion: metalink

13:40:27 [MarkB_]

metal ink!

13:40:39 [RalphS]

Ben: Hal Abelson sugestion: Semantic HTML, aka SHTML

13:40:58 [RalphS]

... though the latter has an unfortunate pronunciation

13:41:05 [RalphS]

... could also say "Structured HTML"

13:41:26 [RalphS]

Steven: I think apache uses .shtml for server-side HTML

13:42:18 [RalphS]

Ralph: agree with Mark's two items to name

13:43:28 [MarkB_]

[Things to do with 'inline' I quite like.....'embedding'...etc., for the 'approach' side.]

13:43:32 [RalphS]

PROPOSED: the technical work may still be called "RDF/A" but the overall approach gets a new name

13:43:52 [RalphS]

... the approach to provide semantic structure in HTML gets a new name

13:43:59 [RalphS]

Mark: seconded

13:44:33 [RalphS]

... we could call the language "RDFA" -- i.e. without '/'

13:44:38 [RalphS]

... or perhaps "RDFa"

13:45:00 [RalphS]

... I put the '/' in just to align with RDF/XML, RDF/N3

13:45:53 [RalphS]

Ben: I like the proposal to take out the '/'

13:46:53 [RalphS]

Ralph: I'm neutral on removing the '/'. I suspect I'm the one who most frequently writes RDF/N3, though I tend toward symmetry

13:47:00 [RalphS]

Steven: I tend toward keeping the '/'

13:47:19 [RalphS]

s|RDF/N3|"RDF/N3"|

13:47:56 [RalphS]

Ben: my goal is to get people to understand the HTML language and then later realize that it's RDF and therefore RDF need not be as complicated as they had heard

13:48:20 [RalphS]

Mark: was recently talking with a commentator who suggested that RDF was not as difficult as perceived

13:49:36 [RalphS]

... it's important that people realize the benefits of precise semantics

13:50:43 [benadida]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0008

13:50:46 [benadida]

^ marketing proposal

13:50:48 [RalphS]

Ben: there's more to the marketing proposal than a name

13:51:17 [RalphS]

... it points to W3C as the repository for the normative specs

13:51:19 [RalphS]

[no disagreement]

13:51:45 [RalphS]

Ben: pointers to specific techniques, e.g. for bloggers

13:54:13 [RalphS]

Ralph: I'm all in favor of letting other organizations share the fun of providing community forums to help in the design and deployment of this approach

13:54:28 [RalphS]

Mark: this is a key technology for us

13:55:10 [RalphS]

... for example, we're doing a blogging interface

13:57:49 [RalphS]

Ben: Creative Commons is offering to host a site but happy to defer to someone else

13:58:34 [RalphS]

Mark: an implementation of a really good RDF/A site would be using lots of other technologies as well

13:58:47 [RalphS]

... our goal is quick and easy publication of metadata

13:59:05 [RalphS]

q+ to ask if we really want just one site?

14:01:08 [RalphS]

ack me

14:01:08 [Zakim]

RalphS, you wanted to ask if we really want just one site?

14:01:19 [RalphS]

Ralph: we should find a name for the approach that we can register in DNS

14:02:02 [Steven]

nk is a countrycode

14:02:09 [Steven]

metali.nk

14:02:09 [RalphS]

:)

14:02:25 [Steven]

or me.tali.nk

14:02:33 [MarkB_]

LoL

14:02:56 [MarkB_]

iLi.nk? (Like iPod...)

14:03:00 [RalphS]

["metali" -- pronounced met'-al-ly -- has a nice ring to me]

14:03:31 [Zakim]

MarkB_, you wanted to mention a podcast I heard recently about microformats

14:03:58 [RalphS]

Mark: everyone wants to publish dates when they blog, so I'm quite into the calendaring application

14:05:00 [RalphS]

Mark: I'd like introductory examples that are really _introductory_ -- that don't get into too many hard details

14:05:44 [MarkB_]

x - port.net

14:05:55 [MarkB_]

formsPlayer.com

14:06:28 [MarkB_]

skimstone.x-port.net

14:07:17 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:07:18 [Zakim]

-MarkB_

14:07:20 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

14:07:20 [RalphS]

Ben: I will have a new editor's draft of Primer by Friday

14:07:23 [RalphS]

[adjourned]

14:07:25 [Zakim]

-Ralph

14:07:27 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended

14:07:28 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ben_Adida, Steven, Ralph, MarkB_

14:19:40 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

14:19:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS

14:19:47 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

14:19:47 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #htmltf

14:20:19 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

14:20:19 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-actions.rdf :

14:20:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben draft mail to Guus and David regarding continuation of HTML TF work [1]

14:20:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc#T13-06-21

14:20:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark, Steven, and Ralph respond to Ben's off-list draft of response to Bjoern [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action05] [2]

14:20:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc#T13-08-24

14:20:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] [3]

14:20:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc#T13-09-03

14:20:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03] [4]

14:20:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc#T13-09-15

14:20:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [5]

14:20:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-htmltf-irc#T13-14-00

14:21:02 [benadida]

benadida has left #htmltf