14:53:01 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 14:53:02 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/04/13-xproc-irc 14:53:02 zakim, this will be xml_proc 14:53:02 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, MSM 14:53:07 zakim, conferences? 14:53:07 I don't understand your question, MSM. 14:53:12 zakim, what conferences? 14:53:12 I see SVG_WG()9:30AM, WAI_Team()10:45AM, MWI_BPWG()10:00AM active 14:53:13 also scheduled at this time are VB_VBWG()10:00AM, DIG_TAMI()11:00AM, DI_DIWG(dpf)10:00AM, I18N_Core_WG(WS-I18N)11:00AM, SW_HCLS()11:00AM, HTML_XForms()10:00AM, WS_DescWG()11:00AM, 14:53:16 ... Team_Global(review)8:00AM, XML_PMWG()11:00AM, WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM 14:53:25 zakim, this will be xml_pm 14:53:25 ok, MSM; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 14:53:41 Norm has joined #xproc 14:54:03 zakim, this will be xproc 14:54:03 ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 14:54:14 rlopes has joined #xproc 14:54:39 norm, to answer your question of (when? two days ago?) 2051213 does conform to ISO 8601, to one of its many formats 14:55:03 8601 also defines a format with hyphens, which is the one required by XSD 14:55:27 Thanks, MSM 14:55:49 (when I first started using iso dates, I invariably used hyphens to make them clearer to myself, but as time passed I grew more comfortable parsing the hyphenless form.) 14:56:26 Norm, I'm going to step away from my desk to feed the dogs, but will take my phone with me; if you would ask Zakim to call Michael-Office, when the call starts, I'd be grateful. 14:57:43 Sure 14:59:52 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started 14:59:59 +Norm 15:00:14 +[IPcaller] 15:00:24 zakim, ipcaller is rlopes 15:00:25 +rlopes; got it 15:00:32 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 15:00:33 Scribe: Norm 15:00:33 ScribeNick: Norm 15:00:33 Date: 13 Apr 2006 15:00:33 Chair: Norm 15:00:33 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/04/13-agenda.html 15:01:10 Alessandro has joined #xproc 15:01:21 +MoZ_ 15:01:23 AndrewF has joined #xproc 15:01:46 zakim, call micheal-office 15:01:46 I am sorry, Norm; I do not know a number for micheal-office 15:01:47 +[IPcaller] 15:01:51 zakim, call michael-office 15:01:51 ok, Norm; the call is being made 15:01:53 +Michael 15:01:58 zakim, ipcaller is Alessandro 15:01:58 +Alessandro; got it 15:02:04 +??P26 15:02:10 zakim, ??p26 is AndrewF 15:02:10 +AndrewF; got it 15:02:30 Zakim, MoZ_ is MoZ 15:02:30 +MoZ; got it 15:02:57 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:02:57 On the phone I see Norm, rlopes, MoZ, Alessandro, Michael, AndrewF 15:03:05 zakim, who's making noise? 15:03:15 Norm, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MoZ (4%), AndrewF (4%) 15:03:16 sort-lines 15:03:46 zakim, mute micheal 15:03:46 sorry, Norm, I do not see a party named 'micheal' 15:03:48 Zakim, mute me 15:03:48 MoZ should now be muted 15:03:50 zakim, mute michael 15:03:50 Michael should now be muted 15:03:52 +Alex_Milowski 15:05:02 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 15:05:29 zakim, alex_milowski is alexmilowski 15:05:29 +alexmilowski; got it 15:05:55 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:05:55 On the phone I see Norm, rlopes, MoZ (muted), Alessandro, Michael (muted), AndrewF, alexmilowski 15:06:20 Present: Norm, Rui, Mohamed, Alessandro, Michael, Andrew, Alex 15:06:30 Regrets: Henry, Paul, Richard 15:06:31 Zakim, unmute me 15:06:31 MoZ should no longer be muted 15:06:45 Topic: Accept this agenda? 15:06:45 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/04/13-agenda.html 15:06:53 Accepted. 15:06:57 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous teleconference? 15:06:57 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/04/06-minutes.html 15:07:04 Accepted. 15:07:14 Topic: Next meeting: 20 Apr telcon 15:07:14 Any regrets? 15:07:34 Rui gives regrets for 20 and 27 April 15:07:52 Topic: Are components side-effect free? 15:07:55 -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3096 15:10:04 yep 15:10:06 Alex: Couldn't we take the XSLT approach and not say? 15:10:51 Norm: XSLT assumes that they are side effect free, can we assume the same? 15:11:11 Alex: If you want a side-effect, pass the stuff through the pipeline. 15:11:33 Alex: Something that goes around the back and passes a note can't be prevented 15:11:34 side effect free is intimately related to management of resources 15:12:05 Alex: If parameter are a separate thing, then you could imagine a step that sets parameters. 15:12:46 Alex: I'm not sure we know enough about the whole structure to know how to resolve this 15:13:03 q+ 15:13:12 zakim, Michael is MSM 15:13:13 +MSM; got it 15:13:24 Alex: Is it sufficient to say for now that we don't want to encourage side effects? 15:13:29 ack MSM 15:13:46 q+ 15:14:10 MSM: I wonder if it would do the trick to say, if there are side-effects their order and number of times they occur is undefined. 15:14:34 MSM: If you know the order of side effects is going to be ok, then you know something that this spec and this implementation are not obligated to tell you 15:14:46 MSM: "It's your problem" 15:14:48 ack Alessandro 15:15:23 Alessandro: What is the definition of a side-effect in this discussion? 15:15:26 Zakim, mute me 15:15:26 MoZ should now be muted 15:15:37 s/that this spec and this implementation are not/that this spec does not and this implementation is not/ 15:15:42 Alessandro: Given the same input documents, a transformation might produce different outputs 15:16:08 zakim, who is making noise? 15:16:19 MSM, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 15:16:28 Alessandro: And I see a lot of components that would be useful, to fetch things from a database or web service for example, where it would be hard to gaurantee no side effects 15:17:37 Norm: I want it to be the case that if you pass the same inputs to a component, you will get the same result. Or that an engine is free to return the same result. 15:17:54 MSM: In that formulation, I have a lot more sympathy 15:19:35 imagine the information of the time and date 15:20:43 Norm expresses again his desire to be able to cache results 15:22:01 he that's my sample :) 15:22:14 s/he/hey/ 15:23:19 Norm, XSLT is a functionnal language 15:24:06 [MSM thinks the discussion is not sufficiently clear in distinguishing the cases where (a) side-effect-free ness is required and (b) it is allowed and (c) it's not allowed (whatever that might mean) 15:24:10 ] 15:24:17 Norm, +1 for default is side effect free 15:25:52 Alessandro: What is the value of saying components are side-effect free? Unspoken benefit is related to caching, which I support. But it looks like the type of side-effect free language we are thinking about would only have an implication on caching on running the same steps multipe times in the same pipeline 15:25:56 Alessandro, not just caching but also intrepreting the structure 15:26:06 Alessandro: I don't see that case as happening very often 15:26:41 Alessandro: Is this really the case we're talking about? 15:27:16 good example is cocoon expire parameter 15:27:17 Alessandro: The case I see more often is that you run the same pipeline multiple times and you want to cache results across multiple executions. 15:28:05 Norm: Good point. 15:28:37 Norm wonders if we should just move on? 15:28:39 +1 for later resolution 15:29:55 Topic: Issue 3113: Does the pipeline act as a resource manager? 15:30:04 -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3113 15:30:15 Alex: The MT pipeline, and my pipeline, both do this 15:30:26 Alex: It's a nice thing 15:31:09 Alex: I'm not sure this is something we have to define 15:32:56 Norm describes a case with a serialized URI that's later xsl:imported in a stylesheet 15:33:53 this case is for me a good example of optimization of a pipeline : if the user don't optimize he do want you say and for the pipeline they are different 15:34:09 if he want to optimize he uses label 15:34:31 in that case we could even use event 15:34:38 Alex: I think this should have to be explicit. 15:36:57 Zakim, unmute me 15:36:57 MoZ should no longer be muted 15:37:19 Alex: We could make it possible to bind these implicit inputs in an explicit way. 15:39:09 More discussion :-/ 15:40:13 Norm: I'm concerned about the complexity of designing a mechanism for making these things explicit and the overhead of deploying that mechanism everytime it's needed 15:40:55 we could imagine if it is not explicit we could just make simple deduction, if information is explicit we could make stronger deduction 15:41:33 Alex: This is a binding from URIs to infosets. Is this something that always happens or do you have to say something in the pipeline to make this explicit 15:42:42 Norm: I don't hear us driving towards consensus on this one 15:43:04 Alex: We should put that use case in the issue 15:43:34 Alex: We have to decide soon what sort of access you have to inputs/outputs other than through pipes 15:44:36 Topic: Issue 3114: Are explicit dependencies required 15:44:43 -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3114 15:46:13 Norm attempts to describe the situation 15:46:19 Norm: (badly) 15:46:32 Norm, not so bad 15:46:43 Alex: For streaming to work, you need to know all the dependencies 15:47:32 if graph is not unique we should issue a warning 15:47:35 Alex: We need to be able to construct the graph and if the resource manager plays games with that graph, we need to know 15:48:12 Norm: Maybe this issue depends on our resolution of 3113 15:49:12 i think the are related 3113 and 3114 but in both way 15:49:19 Norm: If you have a mechanism, as Alex suggested, to make the resource manager explicit, then this issue is subsumed 15:49:20 s/the/they/ 15:49:25 Alex: They're related, not necessarily subsumed. 15:50:16 Alex: I'd suggest that we start here. 15:51:39 Norm isn't sure how to start here 15:52:01 Norm: If you don't care about side effects and you don't have a resource manager, then when do you ever need dependencies other than inputs and outputs? 15:52:40 Alex: depending on a URI is a kind of input/output that isn't directly related to flow through the pipeline 15:53:51 -Alessandro 15:54:25 +Alessandro_Vernet 15:54:57 Norm: So you could have inputs/outputs and a facility for describing auxilliary inputs, resources that are produced/consumed, identified by URI 15:56:07 Alex: Yes 15:56:47 Norm wonders how to deal with dynamic resources in this model 15:57:56 Norm: How are inputs distinct from resources consumed or outputs and resources produced? 15:58:17 Alex: I'm not sure there's a lot of difference, but it comes into play in streaming 15:58:41 Alex: The inputs/outputs in the MT pipeline were important for determining thread boundaries 15:59:02 Alex: I should be able to deduce optimizations from a good flow graph 15:59:38 Topic: Any other business? 15:59:40 None 15:59:57 zakim, unmute me 15:59:57 MSM should no longer be muted 16:00:04 -rlopes 16:00:06 -alexmilowski 16:00:08 -AndrewF 16:00:10 -Alessandro_Vernet 16:00:11 -MoZ 16:00:22 rlopes has left #xproc 16:05:04 -Norm 16:05:14 -MSM 16:05:16 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended 16:05:17 Attendees were Norm, rlopes, Alessandro, AndrewF, MoZ, alexmilowski, MSM, Alessandro_Vernet 16:05:32 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 16:05:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:05:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/13-xproc-minutes.html Norm 16:14:56 alexmilowski has left #xproc 18:03:47 Zakim has left #xproc 18:07:22 Norm has joined #xproc