IRC log of xproc on 2006-04-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:01 [RRSAgent]
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14:53:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:53:02 [MSM]
zakim, this will be xml_proc
14:53:02 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, MSM
14:53:07 [MSM]
zakim, conferences?
14:53:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, MSM.
14:53:12 [MSM]
zakim, what conferences?
14:53:12 [Zakim]
I see SVG_WG()9:30AM, WAI_Team()10:45AM, MWI_BPWG()10:00AM active
14:53:13 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are VB_VBWG()10:00AM, DIG_TAMI()11:00AM, DI_DIWG(dpf)10:00AM, I18N_Core_WG(WS-I18N)11:00AM, SW_HCLS()11:00AM, HTML_XForms()10:00AM, WS_DescWG()11:00AM,
14:53:16 [Zakim]
... Team_Global(review)8:00AM, XML_PMWG()11:00AM, WS_DescWG(WSDL)10:00AM
14:53:25 [MSM]
zakim, this will be xml_pm
14:53:25 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:41 [Norm]
Norm has joined #xproc
14:54:03 [Norm]
zakim, this will be xproc
14:54:03 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:14 [rlopes]
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14:54:39 [MSM]
norm, to answer your question of (when? two days ago?) 2051213 does conform to ISO 8601, to one of its many formats
14:55:03 [MSM]
8601 also defines a format with hyphens, which is the one required by XSD
14:55:27 [Norm]
Thanks, MSM
14:55:49 [MSM]
(when I first started using iso dates, I invariably used hyphens to make them clearer to myself, but as time passed I grew more comfortable parsing the hyphenless form.)
14:56:26 [MSM]
Norm, I'm going to step away from my desk to feed the dogs, but will take my phone with me; if you would ask Zakim to call Michael-Office, when the call starts, I'd be grateful.
14:57:43 [Norm]
14:59:52 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:59 [Zakim]
15:00:14 [Zakim]
15:00:24 [Norm]
zakim, ipcaller is rlopes
15:00:25 [Zakim]
+rlopes; got it
15:00:32 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:00:33 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
15:00:33 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
15:00:33 [Norm]
Date: 13 Apr 2006
15:00:33 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
15:00:33 [Norm]
15:01:10 [Alessandro]
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15:01:21 [Zakim]
15:01:23 [AndrewF]
AndrewF has joined #xproc
15:01:46 [Norm]
zakim, call micheal-office
15:01:46 [Zakim]
I am sorry, Norm; I do not know a number for micheal-office
15:01:47 [Zakim]
15:01:51 [Norm]
zakim, call michael-office
15:01:51 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; the call is being made
15:01:53 [Zakim]
15:01:58 [Norm]
zakim, ipcaller is Alessandro
15:01:58 [Zakim]
+Alessandro; got it
15:02:04 [Zakim]
15:02:10 [Norm]
zakim, ??p26 is AndrewF
15:02:10 [Zakim]
+AndrewF; got it
15:02:30 [MoZ]
Zakim, MoZ_ is MoZ
15:02:30 [Zakim]
+MoZ; got it
15:02:57 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, rlopes, MoZ, Alessandro, Michael, AndrewF
15:03:05 [Norm]
zakim, who's making noise?
15:03:15 [Zakim]
Norm, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MoZ (4%), AndrewF (4%)
15:03:16 [Norm]
15:03:46 [Norm]
zakim, mute micheal
15:03:46 [Zakim]
sorry, Norm, I do not see a party named 'micheal'
15:03:48 [MoZ]
Zakim, mute me
15:03:48 [Zakim]
MoZ should now be muted
15:03:50 [Norm]
zakim, mute michael
15:03:50 [Zakim]
Michael should now be muted
15:03:52 [Zakim]
15:05:02 [alexmilowski]
alexmilowski has joined #xproc
15:05:29 [Norm]
zakim, alex_milowski is alexmilowski
15:05:29 [Zakim]
+alexmilowski; got it
15:05:55 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:05:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, rlopes, MoZ (muted), Alessandro, Michael (muted), AndrewF, alexmilowski
15:06:20 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Rui, Mohamed, Alessandro, Michael, Andrew, Alex
15:06:30 [Norm]
Regrets: Henry, Paul, Richard
15:06:31 [MoZ]
Zakim, unmute me
15:06:31 [Zakim]
MoZ should no longer be muted
15:06:45 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:06:45 [Norm]
15:06:53 [Norm]
15:06:57 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous teleconference?
15:06:57 [Norm]
15:07:04 [Norm]
15:07:14 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: 20 Apr telcon
15:07:14 [Norm]
Any regrets?
15:07:34 [Norm]
Rui gives regrets for 20 and 27 April
15:07:52 [Norm]
Topic: Are components side-effect free?
15:07:55 [Norm]
15:10:04 [MoZ]
15:10:06 [Norm]
Alex: Couldn't we take the XSLT approach and not say?
15:10:51 [Norm]
Norm: XSLT assumes that they are side effect free, can we assume the same?
15:11:11 [Norm]
Alex: If you want a side-effect, pass the stuff through the pipeline.
15:11:33 [Norm]
Alex: Something that goes around the back and passes a note can't be prevented
15:11:34 [MoZ]
side effect free is intimately related to management of resources
15:12:05 [Norm]
Alex: If parameter are a separate thing, then you could imagine a step that sets parameters.
15:12:46 [Norm]
Alex: I'm not sure we know enough about the whole structure to know how to resolve this
15:13:03 [MSM]
15:13:12 [MSM]
zakim, Michael is MSM
15:13:13 [Zakim]
+MSM; got it
15:13:24 [Norm]
Alex: Is it sufficient to say for now that we don't want to encourage side effects?
15:13:29 [MSM]
ack MSM
15:13:46 [Alessandro]
15:14:10 [Norm]
MSM: I wonder if it would do the trick to say, if there are side-effects their order and number of times they occur is undefined.
15:14:34 [Norm]
MSM: If you know the order of side effects is going to be ok, then you know something that this spec and this implementation are not obligated to tell you
15:14:46 [Norm]
MSM: "It's your problem"
15:14:48 [Norm]
ack Alessandro
15:15:23 [Norm]
Alessandro: What is the definition of a side-effect in this discussion?
15:15:26 [MoZ]
Zakim, mute me
15:15:26 [Zakim]
MoZ should now be muted
15:15:37 [MSM]
s/that this spec and this implementation are not/that this spec does not and this implementation is not/
15:15:42 [Norm]
Alessandro: Given the same input documents, a transformation might produce different outputs
15:16:08 [MSM]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:16:19 [Zakim]
MSM, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:16:28 [Norm]
Alessandro: And I see a lot of components that would be useful, to fetch things from a database or web service for example, where it would be hard to gaurantee no side effects
15:17:37 [Norm]
Norm: I want it to be the case that if you pass the same inputs to a component, you will get the same result. Or that an engine is free to return the same result.
15:17:54 [Norm]
MSM: In that formulation, I have a lot more sympathy
15:19:35 [MoZ]
imagine the information of the time and date
15:20:43 [Norm]
Norm expresses again his desire to be able to cache results
15:22:01 [MoZ]
he that's my sample :)
15:22:14 [Norm]
15:23:19 [MoZ]
Norm, XSLT is a functionnal language
15:24:06 [MSM]
[MSM thinks the discussion is not sufficiently clear in distinguishing the cases where (a) side-effect-free ness is required and (b) it is allowed and (c) it's not allowed (whatever that might mean)
15:24:10 [MSM]
15:24:17 [MoZ]
Norm, +1 for default is side effect free
15:25:52 [Norm]
Alessandro: What is the value of saying components are side-effect free? Unspoken benefit is related to caching, which I support. But it looks like the type of side-effect free language we are thinking about would only have an implication on caching on running the same steps multipe times in the same pipeline
15:25:56 [MoZ]
Alessandro, not just caching but also intrepreting the structure
15:26:06 [Norm]
Alessandro: I don't see that case as happening very often
15:26:41 [Norm]
Alessandro: Is this really the case we're talking about?
15:27:16 [MoZ]
good example is cocoon expire parameter
15:27:17 [Norm]
Alessandro: The case I see more often is that you run the same pipeline multiple times and you want to cache results across multiple executions.
15:28:05 [Norm]
Norm: Good point.
15:28:37 [Norm]
Norm wonders if we should just move on?
15:28:39 [MoZ]
+1 for later resolution
15:29:55 [Norm]
Topic: Issue 3113: Does the pipeline act as a resource manager?
15:30:04 [Norm]
15:30:15 [Norm]
Alex: The MT pipeline, and my pipeline, both do this
15:30:26 [Norm]
Alex: It's a nice thing
15:31:09 [Norm]
Alex: I'm not sure this is something we have to define
15:32:56 [Norm]
Norm describes a case with a serialized URI that's later xsl:imported in a stylesheet
15:33:53 [MoZ]
this case is for me a good example of optimization of a pipeline : if the user don't optimize he do want you say and for the pipeline they are different
15:34:09 [MoZ]
if he want to optimize he uses label
15:34:31 [MoZ]
in that case we could even use event
15:34:38 [Norm]
Alex: I think this should have to be explicit.
15:36:57 [MoZ]
Zakim, unmute me
15:36:57 [Zakim]
MoZ should no longer be muted
15:37:19 [Norm]
Alex: We could make it possible to bind these implicit inputs in an explicit way.
15:39:09 [Norm]
More discussion :-/
15:40:13 [Norm]
Norm: I'm concerned about the complexity of designing a mechanism for making these things explicit and the overhead of deploying that mechanism everytime it's needed
15:40:55 [MoZ]
we could imagine if it is not explicit we could just make simple deduction, if information is explicit we could make stronger deduction
15:41:33 [Norm]
Alex: This is a binding from URIs to infosets. Is this something that always happens or do you have to say something in the pipeline to make this explicit
15:42:42 [Norm]
Norm: I don't hear us driving towards consensus on this one
15:43:04 [Norm]
Alex: We should put that use case in the issue
15:43:34 [Norm]
Alex: We have to decide soon what sort of access you have to inputs/outputs other than through pipes
15:44:36 [Norm]
Topic: Issue 3114: Are explicit dependencies required
15:44:43 [Norm]
15:46:13 [Norm]
Norm attempts to describe the situation
15:46:19 [Norm]
Norm: (badly)
15:46:32 [MoZ]
Norm, not so bad
15:46:43 [Norm]
Alex: For streaming to work, you need to know all the dependencies
15:47:32 [MoZ]
if graph is not unique we should issue a warning
15:47:35 [Norm]
Alex: We need to be able to construct the graph and if the resource manager plays games with that graph, we need to know
15:48:12 [Norm]
Norm: Maybe this issue depends on our resolution of 3113
15:49:12 [MoZ]
i think the are related 3113 and 3114 but in both way
15:49:19 [Norm]
Norm: If you have a mechanism, as Alex suggested, to make the resource manager explicit, then this issue is subsumed
15:49:20 [MoZ]
15:49:25 [Norm]
Alex: They're related, not necessarily subsumed.
15:50:16 [Norm]
Alex: I'd suggest that we start here.
15:51:39 [Norm]
Norm isn't sure how to start here
15:52:01 [Norm]
Norm: If you don't care about side effects and you don't have a resource manager, then when do you ever need dependencies other than inputs and outputs?
15:52:40 [Norm]
Alex: depending on a URI is a kind of input/output that isn't directly related to flow through the pipeline
15:53:51 [Zakim]
15:54:25 [Zakim]
15:54:57 [Norm]
Norm: So you could have inputs/outputs and a facility for describing auxilliary inputs, resources that are produced/consumed, identified by URI
15:56:07 [Norm]
Alex: Yes
15:56:47 [Norm]
Norm wonders how to deal with dynamic resources in this model
15:57:56 [Norm]
Norm: How are inputs distinct from resources consumed or outputs and resources produced?
15:58:17 [Norm]
Alex: I'm not sure there's a lot of difference, but it comes into play in streaming
15:58:41 [Norm]
Alex: The inputs/outputs in the MT pipeline were important for determining thread boundaries
15:59:02 [Norm]
Alex: I should be able to deduce optimizations from a good flow graph
15:59:38 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
15:59:40 [Norm]
15:59:57 [MSM]
zakim, unmute me
15:59:57 [Zakim]
MSM should no longer be muted
16:00:04 [Zakim]
16:00:06 [Zakim]
16:00:08 [Zakim]
16:00:10 [Zakim]
16:00:11 [Zakim]
16:00:22 [rlopes]
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16:05:16 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
16:05:17 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, rlopes, Alessandro, AndrewF, MoZ, alexmilowski, MSM, Alessandro_Vernet
16:05:32 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:05:37 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
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