IRC log of rif on 2006-04-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:30 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rif

14:45:30 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-rif-irc

14:45:35 [ChrisW]

zakim, this will be rif

14:45:35 [Zakim]

ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes

14:49:17 [sandro]

sandro has joined #rif

14:50:46 [sandro]

zakim, this will be rif

14:50:46 [Zakim]

ok, sandro; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes

14:50:54 [pfps]

pfps has joined #rif

14:50:56 [patranja]

patranja has joined #rif

14:53:01 [FrankMcCabe]

FrankMcCabe has joined #rif

14:53:13 [mdean]

mdean has joined #rif

14:53:16 [csma]

csma has joined #rif

14:54:15 [DavidHirtle]

DavidHirtle has joined #rif

14:55:08 [IanH]

IanH has joined #rif

14:55:24 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started

14:55:31 [Zakim]

+??P0

14:55:35 [Zakim]

-??P0

14:55:36 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended

14:55:37 [Zakim]

Attendees were

14:56:04 [sandro]

zakim, this wil be rif

14:56:04 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'this wil be rif', sandro

14:56:10 [sandro]

zakim, this will be rif

14:56:11 [Zakim]

ok, sandro; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

14:56:13 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started

14:56:19 [Zakim]

+??P0

14:56:28 [pfps]

zakim, ??p0 is me

14:56:28 [Zakim]

+pfps; got it

14:57:11 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

14:57:22 [Zakim]

+ +4279aaaa

14:57:30 [ChrisW]

zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me

14:57:30 [Zakim]

+ChrisW; got it

14:57:34 [csma]

zakim, aaaa is me

14:57:34 [Zakim]

+csma; got it

14:57:37 [Hassan]

Hassan has joined #rif

14:57:51 [MarkusK]

MarkusK has joined #rif

14:58:26 [Zakim]

+Hassan_Ait-Kaci

14:58:38 [aharth]

aharth has joined #rif

14:58:58 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:59:29 [Zakim]

+??P33

14:59:37 [Zakim]

+Andreas_Harth (was ??P33)

14:59:48 [Zakim]

+[Fujitsu]

14:59:49 [Deborah_Nichols]

Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif

14:59:58 [FrankMcCabe]

zakim, fujitsu is me

14:59:58 [Zakim]

+FrankMcCabe; got it

15:00:06 [Zakim]

+??P35

15:00:19 [Zakim]

+Deborah_Nichols

15:00:27 [Zakim]

+??P36

15:00:39 [sandro]

zakim, ??P36 is sandro_testing

15:00:39 [Zakim]

+sandro_testing; got it

15:00:45 [Zakim]

+[LMU]

15:00:57 [sandro]

zakim, mute sandro_testing

15:00:57 [Zakim]

sandro_testing should now be muted

15:01:07 [JeffP]

JeffP has joined #rif

15:02:07 [LeoraMorgenstern]

LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif

15:02:28 [johnhall]

johnhall has joined #rif

15:02:31 [IanH]

+1

15:02:32 [igor]

igor has joined #rif

15:03:02 [AlexK]

AlexK has joined #rif

15:03:06 [Zakim]

+Jeff_Pan

15:03:11 [Zakim]

+Igor_Mozetic

15:03:13 [Zakim]

+??P44

15:03:25 [igor]

zakim, mute me

15:03:25 [Zakim]

Igor_Mozetic should now be muted

15:03:28 [IanH]

zakim, unmute me

15:03:28 [Zakim]

IanH should no longer be muted

15:03:36 [LeoraMorgenstern]

zakim, ??P44 is me

15:03:36 [Zakim]

+LeoraMorgenstern; got it

15:03:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]

zakim, mute me

15:03:43 [Zakim]

LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted

15:04:09 [Harold]

Harold has joined #rif

15:04:18 [Zakim]

+David_Hirtle

15:04:21 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:04:22 [PaulV]

PaulV has joined #RIF

15:04:46 [MoZ_]

MoZ_ has joined #rif

15:05:08 [Zakim]

+ +33.8.72.47.aabb

15:05:08 [Zakim]

+[NRCC]

15:05:13 [IanH]

zakim, mute me

15:05:13 [Zakim]

IanH should now be muted

15:05:21 [Harold]

zakim [NRCC] is me

15:05:26 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller]

15:05:36 [MoZ_]

Zakim aabb is MoZ

15:05:39 [csma]

zakim, who is on the call

15:05:39 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is on the call', csma

15:05:43 [AlexK]

I cannot connect, I can't hear anything

15:05:49 [csma]

zakim, who is on the call?

15:05:49 [Zakim]

On the phone I see pfps, ChrisW, csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, MarkusK (muted), Andreas_Harth, FrankMcCabe, IanH (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), sandro_testing (muted), PaulaP (muted),

15:05:52 [Zakim]

... Jeff_Pan, Igor_Mozetic (muted), LeoraMorgenstern (muted), David_Hirtle (muted), +33.8.72.47.aabb, [NRCC]

15:05:58 [sandro]

AlexK, what happens when you try?

15:05:59 [johnhall]

johnhall has joined #rif

15:06:09 [Zakim]

+Sandro.a

15:06:12 [MoZ_]

Zakim, +aabb is MoZ

15:06:12 [Zakim]

sorry, MoZ_, I do not recognize a party named '+aabb'

15:06:12 [sandro]

zakim, mute me

15:06:13 [Zakim]

'sandro' is ambiguous, sandro

15:06:13 [Harold]

Zakim, [NRCC] is me

15:06:13 [Zakim]

+Harold; got it

15:06:19 [AlexK]

I'm typing in the conference call, I'm on the phone--total silence

15:06:20 [JosDeRoo]

JosDeRoo has joined #rif

15:06:43 [sandro]

zakim, who is here?

15:06:43 [Zakim]

On the phone I see pfps, ChrisW, csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, MarkusK (muted), Andreas_Harth, FrankMcCabe, IanH (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), sandro_testing (muted), PaulaP (muted),

15:06:46 [Zakim]

... Jeff_Pan, Igor_Mozetic (muted), LeoraMorgenstern (muted), David_Hirtle (muted), +33.8.72.47.aabb, Harold, Sandro.a (muted)

15:06:49 [Zakim]

On IRC I see JosDeRoo, johnhall, MoZ_, PaulV, Harold, AlexK, igor, LeoraMorgenstern, JeffP, Deborah_Nichols, aharth, MarkusK, Hassan, IanH, DavidHirtle, csma, mdean, FrankMcCabe,

15:06:52 [Zakim]

... PaulaP, pfps, sandro, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW, Keeper

15:06:53 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:07:00 [MoZ_]

Zakim, aabb is MoZ

15:07:00 [Zakim]

+MoZ; got it

15:07:05 [johnhall]

zakim, IPcaller is me

15:07:05 [Zakim]

+johnhall; got it

15:07:13 [johnhall]

zakim, mute me

15:07:13 [Zakim]

johnhall should now be muted

15:07:15 [AlexK]

Let me check: +1.617.761.6200 conference code 74394#

15:07:23 [sandro]

zakim, sandro_testing is ipsandro

15:07:24 [Zakim]

+ipsandro; got it

15:07:27 [Zakim]

+Mike_Dean

15:07:35 [sandro]

zakim, Sandro.a is Sandro

15:07:39 [Zakim]

+Sandro; got it

15:07:43 [MalaMehrotra]

MalaMehrotra has joined #rif

15:08:11 [Zakim]

+??P49

15:08:15 [GiorgosStoilos]

GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif

15:08:31 [Uli]

Uli has joined #rif

15:08:44 [Zakim]

+Mala_Mehrotra

15:08:47 [ChrisW]

uli, can you scribe?

15:08:47 [JosDeRoo]

Zakim, ??P49 is JosDeRoo

15:08:47 [Zakim]

+JosDeRoo; got it

15:09:21 [Zakim]

+??P51

15:09:45 [Zakim]

+??P52

15:09:55 [Zakim]

+[IVML]

15:10:00 [AlexK]

I've joined finally

15:10:05 [MichaelKifer]

MichaelKifer has joined #rif

15:10:17 [GiorgosStoilos]

zakim, [IVML] is me

15:10:17 [Zakim]

+GiorgosStoilos; got it

15:10:23 [Uli]

zakim, ??p51 is uli

15:10:23 [Zakim]

+uli; got it

15:10:38 [ChrisW]

scribenick: uli

15:11:20 [Zakim]

+Michael_Kifer

15:11:23 [ChrisW]

updated minutes: [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/0036.html]

15:11:42 [Uli]

Hassan: minutes don't make sense at one point:

15:11:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]

zakim, unmute me

15:11:47 [Zakim]

LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted

15:11:51 [LeoraMorgenstern]

q

15:11:52 [IanH]

zakim, unmute me

15:11:52 [Zakim]

IanH should no longer be muted

15:12:02 [LeoraMorgenstern]

q+

15:12:16 [Uli]

Hassan: chronolgy is unclear

15:12:17 [LeoraMorgenstern]

q-

15:12:25 [LeoraMorgenstern]

I'm off the queue; Ian said what I wanted to say.

15:12:58 [Uli]

Hassan: doubts whether jiggsaw-puzzle can be accepted

15:13:10 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:13:12 [sandro]

q+ to comment on +1 in IRC

15:13:18 [Uli]

Chris: explains how "+1" is always difficult,

15:13:37 [pfps]

+1 :-)

15:13:57 [sandro]

zakim, unmute me

15:13:57 [Zakim]

Sandro should no longer be muted

15:14:07 [Uli]

Christian: advises scribes to add stuff as long as it's fresh in their mind.

15:14:10 [Deborah_Nichols]

I can send some amplification from my notes

15:14:18 [Uli]

Hassan no longer objects

15:14:20 [ChrisW]

+1

15:14:31 [MoZ_]

+1

15:14:33 [ChrisW]

+1 to ian

15:14:46 [sandro]

q?

15:14:51 [Uli]

IanH suggest to wait with "+1" until scribe has scribed

15:14:55 [MoZ_]

+1 to make clearer +1

15:15:04 [sandro]

zakim, who is muted?

15:15:04 [Zakim]

I see MarkusK, Deborah_Nichols, ipsandro, PaulaP, Igor_Mozetic, David_Hirtle, johnhall, uli muted

15:15:18 [sandro]

ack Sandro

15:15:18 [Zakim]

sandro, you wanted to comment on +1 in IRC

15:15:23 [Uli]

ChrisW: no objections to accept the minutes?

15:15:25 [Harold]

+1 to minutes

15:15:27 [csma]

+1 to accept minutes

15:15:40 [PaulaP]

+1 to accept minutes

15:15:42 [JosDeRoo]

Zakim, mute me

15:15:42 [Zakim]

JosDeRoo should now be muted

15:15:46 [MalaMehrotra]

MalaMehrotra has joined #rif

15:16:06 [Uli]

Sandro: suggest to "annotate" the "+1"s with what you agree with (as in all the examples above)

15:16:25 [MarkusK]

+1 to stating what one agrees to ;-)

15:16:33 [sandro]

zakim, Sandro is sandro

15:16:33 [Zakim]

+sandro; got it

15:16:36 [Uli]

CHrisW: minutes are accepted

15:16:36 [sandro]

zakim, mute me

15:16:36 [Zakim]

sandro should now be muted

15:16:58 [Uli]

ChrisW: Christian's action

15:17:30 [Uli]

Christian: RIF telecon overlaps with Sparql telecon because of Boston time/universal time difference

15:17:54 [sandro]

zakim, who is muted?

15:17:54 [Zakim]

I see Hassan_Ait-Kaci, MarkusK, IanH, Deborah_Nichols, ipsandro, PaulaP, Igor_Mozetic, David_Hirtle, sandro, johnhall, JosDeRoo, uli muted

15:17:55 [Uli]

ChristianW: has checked that there are no rules as to which time should be used for WGs

15:18:29 [MoZ_]

Zakim, MoZ_ is MoZ

15:18:29 [Zakim]

sorry, MoZ_, I do not recognize a party named 'MoZ_'

15:18:36 [Uli]

Christian: we could switch to UTC, but this will mean 1 hour later.

15:18:44 [MoZ_]

Zakim, MoZ is MoZ_

15:18:44 [Zakim]

+MoZ_; got it

15:19:14 [Uli]

ChrisW: anybody wants to stay wrt constant?

15:19:24 [MoZ_]

just prefer no overlapping

15:19:37 [Uli]

ChrisW: which means "no summertime"

15:20:02 [Uli]

??? prefers this because otherwise, RIF members can't participate in SPARQL meeting

15:20:03 [csma]

ACTION: Christian will investigate overlap with SPARQL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUED]

15:20:28 [csma]

q?

15:20:37 [Hassan]

q+

15:20:41 [csma]

q?

15:20:47 [Uli]

Joos: finds summertime in general annoying

15:20:59 [sandro]

s/Joos/JosDeRoo/

15:21:00 [csma]

ack hassan

15:21:24 [Uli]

ChrisW: explains 2 problems: changing to/from summertime and soarql overlap

15:22:08 [pfps]

there are places that don't go on summer time at all

15:22:35 [Uli]

ChrisW: isn't sure whether Rif's time is changeable

15:22:54 [Uli]

ChrisW: F2F meeting:

15:22:57 [sandro]

Topic: F2F

15:23:11 [csma]

ACTION: chair to put design for extensibility and discussion of proposals on agenda for next telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html#action14] [DONE]

15:23:14 [Uli]

ChrisW: repeats warning about filling flights to Dubrovnik

15:23:36 [Hassan]

+1 to posting a page on travel

15:23:49 [Uli]

ChrisW: suggest to put up a page to register, Sandro?

15:24:06 [AlexK]

I am enquiring with the management about my availability

15:24:12 [PaulaP]

we can use the information found at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F3/TravelTimes

15:24:13 [AlexK]

for the F2F

15:24:28 [Uli]

Sandro: ok, for registration and also travel times for co-ordination...

15:24:38 [Hassan]

q+

15:24:53 [Uli]

Sandro: will set up a RIF registration page

15:24:55 [csma]

ACTION: Sandro to set up registration page for F2F3

15:25:03 [csma]

ack hassan

15:25:30 [Hassan]

q-

15:25:33 [Uli]

ChrisW: SW conference will organize travel arrangements from the airport, and we need to co-ordinate with them

15:25:40 [AlexK]

I can't access teh travel times page--not allowed to view this page

15:26:02 [MichaelKifer]

q+

15:26:03 [csma]

it seems likz the W3C site is down

15:26:06 [sandro]

AlexK, you need to login to the wiki to get to that page. (BUt that page is now obsolete, if I understand correctly.)

15:26:17 [PaulaP]

at moment it is not really clear whether the ESWC organizers will provide such a form

15:26:37 [Uli]

MKifer: are the visa requirements for Montenegro?

15:27:07 [AlexK]

Croatia should be fine for most of us

15:27:08 [Uli]

MKifer: and visa for Croatia?

15:27:26 [MarkusK]

Btw. Michael Sintek and I are going to Tivat

15:27:37 [PaulaP]

there is information on the ESWC web page

15:27:37 [Deborah_Nichols]

the country is Serbia and Montenegro. There is no Yugoslavia any more.

15:27:41 [IanH]

We couldn't be so lucky as to be unable to go there!

15:27:46 [PaulaP]

q+

15:27:51 [AlexK]

http://www.southtravels.com/europe/serbiamontenegro/visa.html

15:27:51 [Uli]

Uli: ask your travel agent!

15:28:02 [igor]

http://www.mfa.gov.yu/Visas/VisasR.htm

15:28:05 [AlexK]

Have a look above

15:28:10 [igor]

visa info for Montenegro

15:28:16 [PaulaP]

http://www.mfa.gov.yu/Visas/VisasR.htm

15:28:19 [MichaelKifer]

q-

15:28:46 [Uli]

Christian: seems most citizens won't need a visa...

15:29:36 [Uli]

ChrisW: reminder that next week is deadline for proposals for F2F4

15:29:39 [Zakim]

+Gary_Hallmark

15:29:49 [Uli]

ChrisW: currently, there are 2 proposals

15:30:04 [Uli]

ChrisW: Liasons?

15:30:12 [sandro]

topic: Liason

15:30:24 [PaulV]

OMG PRR: no news from liason

15:30:48 [Uli]

ChrisW; Use cases, actions check

15:31:00 [csma]

ACTION: Christian to send email to propose resolution that decidability is a non-requirement and gather relevant arguments before next telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action14] [DONE]

15:31:08 [Uli]

ChrisW: ...?action continued

15:31:12 [sandro]

zakim, unmute me

15:31:12 [Zakim]

sandro was not muted, sandro

15:31:13 [GaryHallmark]

GaryHallmark has joined #rif

15:31:23 [csma]

ACTION: Frank will produce an initial diagram with existing constraints [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUED]

15:31:44 [Uli]

ChrisW: decidability proposal

15:32:32 [Uli]

csma: was not comfortable with WG deciding "non-requirements", prefers requirements, etc

15:33:17 [Uli]

csma: so far, nobody submitted a requirement on decidability,

15:33:48 [csma]

ACTION: MickaelK to extend page on pure prolog and give a precise definition (according to standard publications) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action13] [DONE]

15:34:02 [Uli]

csma: suggests to come up with a requirement that makes decidability a non-requirement

15:34:22 [ChrisW]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/0005.html

15:34:30 [Uli]

ChrisW: topic: Dave's proposal

15:34:35 [DavidHirtle]

I think he posted regrets on the wiki

15:34:37 [csma]

ACTION: sandro to clarify meaning of sound and what is the requirement on RIF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action11] [CONTINUED]

15:35:13 [csma]

ACTION: Sandro to clarify whether sound reasoning constraint with unknown dialects is a requirement or a critical success factor [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action12] [CONTINUED]

15:35:14 [Uli]

ChrisW: Dave's proposal is a good example of a requirement

15:35:24 [Uli]

ChrisW: any comments on this?

15:36:02 [sandro]

q?

15:36:12 [Uli]

csma: if we agree on a requirement/goal/etc., then they should be linked with other things on the web page

15:36:28 [csma]

ACTION: Evan to publicize to ODM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html#action09] [DONE]

15:37:02 [MichaelKifer]

q+

15:37:11 [PaulaP]

q-

15:37:14 [Uli]

sandro: we could use Dave's proposal as a "structural example" and have the others follow it

15:37:16 [pfps]

Here we are getting into a problem similar to that brought up by Hassan - the log is not close to the timeline of the call

15:37:36 [Uli]

csma: disagrees

15:37:46 [sandro]

Chris: Do we like this CSF Methodology?

15:38:07 [csma]

q?

15:38:07 [Uli]

chrisW: explains that we only meant the "abstract structure", not the specific proposal

15:38:33 [Uli]

who is speaking?

15:38:42 [sandro]

FrankMcCabe

15:39:38 [Uli]

FMC: Sees some up-side down thinking and suggests to concentrate on goals before we go to requirements

15:40:15 [Uli]

csma: reminds that requirements can only come with critical success factors

15:40:16 [sandro]

q?

15:40:17 [ChrisW]

q?

15:40:50 [sandro]

Frank: Mine goals from the charter.

15:40:51 [Uli]

FMC: suggests too mine charta for goals

15:41:05 [csma]

ack michaelk

15:41:32 [Uli]

MKifer: seconds FMC's suggestions, and observes that Dave's proposal is vague in parts

15:42:02 [Uli]

MKifer: e.g., "effective" and "sufficiently few dialects"

15:42:27 [Uli]

MKifer: doesn't understand implications of several points in Dave's proposal

15:42:28 [PaulaP]

+1 to more clear and detailed constraints

15:42:49 [Uli]

csma: suggests to add details and comments on the wiki

15:43:12 [sandro]

zakim, mute me

15:43:12 [Zakim]

sandro should now be muted

15:43:14 [Uli]

MKifer: suggests to avoid "general words"

15:43:33 [Uli]

csma: suggests to add examples for implementation of a requirement

15:44:05 [Uli]

ChrisW: what's the relation between hierarchy and goals and design constraints?

15:44:31 [Uli]

csma: there are "dependencies" to be added

15:44:45 [Uli]

csma: and which will be visualised

15:44:51 [sandro]

q+ to ask if it's a tree or a lattice?

15:44:54 [MichaelKifer]

q-

15:45:01 [Uli]

ChrisW: sees representation problem

15:45:27 [sandro]

zakim, unmute me

15:45:27 [Zakim]

sandro should no longer be muted

15:45:54 [Uli]

ChrisW: we would need levels in hierarchy, to have structure between constraints

15:46:20 [csma]

q?

15:46:43 [csma]

ack sandro

15:46:43 [Zakim]

sandro, you wanted to ask if it's a tree or a lattice?

15:46:55 [Uli]

FMC: explains how adding more justifications for a requirement makes it stronger

15:47:08 [sandro]

Frank: It's important to know all the reasons why a Requirement is important (ie a lattice)

15:48:53 [Uli]

ChrisW: wants to know how to indicate direction of link?

15:49:01 [sandro]

Sandro: I like "Motivation"

15:49:14 [sandro]

paste link to what you're loking at, folks.

15:50:18 [Uli]

csma: explains how dependencies work between requirements and critical design factors...

15:50:24 [sandro]

q+ to suggest a simple way to do the structure

15:51:08 [AlexK]

critical SUCCESS factors

15:51:25 [Uli]

sandro: suggest to make things easier by using an indented list for requirements

15:51:31 [csma]

ack sandro

15:51:31 [Zakim]

sandro, you wanted to suggest a simple way to do the structure

15:51:51 [Uli]

sandro: and to add cdfs explicitly

15:52:21 [Uli]

ChrisW: and link requirements to detailed ...goals?

15:52:44 [Uli]

ChrisW: this would make structure more apparent

15:52:59 [ChrisW]

[http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/RIF_must_define_for_all_RIF_elements_a_default_behaviour_for_compliant_applications_that_do_not_know_how_to_process_it]

15:53:20 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/RIF_must_define_for_all_RIF_elements_a_default_behaviour_for_compliant_applications_that_do_not_know_how_to_process_it

15:54:00 [Uli]

ChrisW: (using this one because its complete)...reads out an example from csma

15:54:07 [sandro]

topic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/RIF_must_define_for_all_RIF_elements_a_default_behaviour_for_compliant_applications_that_do_not_know_how_to_process_it

15:54:55 [Uli]

ChrisW: comments on requirement that compliant applications must be able to handle in a predictable way

15:55:22 [Uli]

csma: suggests that we start with a less complex one

15:55:33 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/RIF_Core_must_cover_pure_Prolog

15:55:44 [Uli]

ChrisW: so, comments on "Rif core must cover pure prolog"?

15:56:17 [Uli]

ChrisW: reminds that we already discussed difficulty with "pure prolog"

15:56:24 [pfps]

q+

15:57:11 [Uli]

csma: suggests to remove "core" from this requirement

15:57:14 [MichaelKifer]

q+

15:57:28 [igor]

q+

15:57:44 [sandro]

+1 to csma, it's too early to argue that RIF **Core** should cover pure Prolog

15:57:45 [Uli]

csma: would prefer that this is "Rif standard or Rif core"

15:58:05 [GaryHallmark]

+1 to remove core. Core seems by definition the intersection of the other requirements

15:58:41 [Uli]

csma: in general, would prefer to be a bit more complete/global wrt different Rifs

16:00:01 [Uli]

pfps: even pure prolog is "very complicated", and suggests to decide whether/where we need to cover this

16:00:37 [Uli]

pfps: suggests to replace "pure prolog" with "X", for a simpler logic

16:01:18 [Uli]

pfps: it's inappropriate to talk about ISO standards here, and thus pure prolog is difficult

16:01:32 [igor]

ack me

16:01:46 [ChrisW]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/author.html

16:01:54 [csma]

ack pfps

16:02:12 [MarkusK]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Pure_Prolog

16:02:37 [Uli]

Igor: explains that all information is found at the prolog wiki page

16:02:53 [PaulaP]

+1 to pfps on finding the motivation of using pure prolog here

16:02:59 [Uli]

pfps: what about occurs check?

16:03:31 [Uli]

Igor: suggests to accept MKifer's suggestion to drop pure prolog

16:04:22 [Harold]

q+

16:04:42 [Uli]

ChrisW: action on Igor, to explain what we mean on the wiki

16:05:10 [Uli]

ChrisW: it's up to requirement's authors as to whether this will be prolog or Horn or...

16:05:26 [Uli]

Igor: suggests to replace pure prolog with "horn clauses"

16:05:53 [Uli]

ChrisW: Horn clauses is not unambiguous either...

16:05:57 [ChrisW]

q?

16:06:15 [Uli]

sandro: any suggestions for a new name for "pure prolog"?

16:06:39 [Uli]

MKifer: repeats from his email: pp is horn plus ordering

16:07:36 [Uli]

csma: clarifies his previous remark, that requirements shouldn't target specific RIF variants

16:07:58 [Uli]

csma: this discussion should be left to a later point in time

16:08:17 [JosDeRoo]

q+

16:08:17 [Uli]

csma: wants to get a complete picture first

16:08:18 [MichaelKifer]

q-

16:08:39 [igor]

q-

16:08:40 [csma]

ACTION: Sandro and Igor to find a name+definition for the "pure prolog" requirement that does not mention "pure prolog"

16:08:59 [Uli]

Harold: agrees with MKifer, and suggests "Ordered Horn clauses"

16:09:13 [Uli]

Harold: because both ordering of literals and rules is important

16:09:13 [ChrisW]

ach harold

16:09:17 [pfps]

An interesting page on ISO Prolog is http://pauillac.inria.fr/~deransar/prolog/docs.html. The page seems to indicate that the occurs check is somehow optional, at least in some situations.

16:09:18 [JosDeRoo]

Zakim, unmute me

16:09:18 [Zakim]

JosDeRoo should no longer be muted

16:09:19 [ChrisW]

ach\k harold

16:09:23 [ChrisW]

ack harold

16:09:25 [Zakim]

-GiorgosStoilos

16:09:28 [Harold]

We can now define positively what we converged to mean by "Pure Prolog": "Ordered Horn clause".

16:09:29 [ChrisW]

ack jos

16:09:32 [csma]

ACTION: Sandro to discuss on email whether the "pure prolog" requirement can be replaced by a "horn logic" requirement or if we need both

16:10:06 [Uli]

JDR: agrees with Harold, and points out how complicated prolog is (with occurs check and such like)

16:10:40 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Extended_RIF_must_cover_FOL

16:10:44 [Uli]

ChrisW: next design constraint: extended RIF ...

16:10:54 [sandro]

topic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Extended_RIF_must_cover_FOL

16:11:27 [Uli]

FMC: wants to know critical success factor of FOL

16:11:33 [Harold]

"Ordered Horn Clauses" could be the result of annotating "Horn Clauses".

16:11:36 [LeoraMorgenstern]

zakim, unmute me

16:11:36 [Zakim]

LeoraMorgenstern was not muted, LeoraMorgenstern

16:11:39 [LeoraMorgenstern]

q+

16:12:03 [csma]

ack leora

16:12:04 [MalaMehrotra]

q+

16:12:09 [AlexK]

I'll just merely say about the FOL that it captures requirements in some applications

16:12:23 [Uli]

LMo: explains that FOL is important because of expressiveness

16:12:40 [csma]

+1 to FOL being impotant because of expressiveness

16:13:04 [Uli]

ChrisW: reminds that we are talking about "critical success factors"

16:13:25 [MichaelKifer]

q+

16:13:30 [ChrisW]

q?

16:13:33 [csma]

q+ toquestion FOL being a requirement az opposed to a csf and it being for extended RIF

16:13:44 [csma]

q+

16:13:45 [sandro]

perhaps: goal = RIF must be useful for KR ?

16:14:06 [Uli]

LMo: will formulate critical success factor for FOL

16:14:19 [Uli]

LMo: ...and expressiveness

16:14:23 [AlexK]

do we have meta-definitions of Goal, Requirement, CSF?

16:15:08 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Uli, could you cite me as Leora instead of LMo?

16:15:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]

I didn't know who LMo is, and no-one else will ...

16:15:23 [Uli]

MalaM: seconds "RIF should cover FOL"

16:15:25 [sandro]

http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html

16:15:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]

s/LMo/leora

16:15:55 [AlexK]

Am I identified?

16:16:13 [Uli]

MKifer: proposes that we apply same standard to FOL as to pure prologue, and hence to explain exactly what we mean by FOL

16:16:27 [sandro]

I don't think so, AlexK. Try pressing "41#" on your telephone keypad.

16:16:29 [ChrisW]

q?

16:16:30 [MichaelKifer]

q-

16:16:31 [Hassan]

+1 with Mike

16:16:31 [LeoraMorgenstern]

q

16:16:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]

q+

16:16:41 [ChrisW]

ack mala

16:16:44 [ChrisW]

ack csma

16:17:02 [MarkusK]

q+

16:17:13 [AlexK]

I have typed it then what

16:17:16 [Uli]

csma: (1) "extended RIF" will cover everything since it will be extensible

16:17:24 [sandro]

Zakim, ??P52 is AlexK

16:17:25 [Zakim]

+AlexK; got it

16:17:34 [sandro]

q- ??P52

16:17:48 [AlexK]

Zakim, is this a requirement to type it once you on the phone?

16:17:48 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, AlexK.

16:17:52 [sandro]

Thanks, AlexK, that was enough.

16:17:54 [Uli]

csma: (2) agrees that FOL is important, but he thinks that it is a critical success factor

16:18:06 [AlexK]

Do I do it always when I join?

16:18:08 [FrankMcCabe]

q+

16:18:12 [MalaMehrotra]

+1 to csma

16:18:18 [ChrisW]

ack leora

16:18:31 [sandro]

No, AlexK. Um, but let's talk about this after the telecon.

16:18:39 [Uli]

leora: asks (procedural) how we agree on what we mean by FOL

16:18:49 [sandro]

q?

16:18:56 [Uli]

ChrisW: the champions decide what they mean, and then we revise it

16:19:24 [sandro]

q+ to argue that things like "sorted" don't matter for this purpose

16:19:37 [ChrisW]

ack mark

16:20:15 [Hassan]

q+

16:20:17 [Uli]

MarkusK: wondered in how far "rule set" is ...?

16:20:21 [JeffP]

JeffP has joined #rif

16:20:23 [Uli]

neither am i

16:20:38 [Uli]

MarkusK: do we find "rules" in FOL?

16:21:05 [Uli]

MarkusK: that is, can we view any FOL theory as a rule set?

16:21:13 [sandro]

Markus: does using the word Ruleset mean we're only talking about part of FOL?

16:21:32 [Uli]

ChrisW: so we need to clarify the relation between "rule set" and FOL

16:21:58 [ChrisW]

q?

16:22:06 [Uli]

sandro: points out that "FOL" should mean "arbitrary FOL theories"

16:22:12 [ChrisW]

ack fr

16:22:50 [sandro]

Frank: CSF might be "you have to support KR", FOL is not a CSF

16:23:00 [Uli]

FrankMcCabe: doesn't think that FOL is critical success factor because it is ..KR..?

16:23:44 [sandro]

Frank: as in, "if you can't do FOL, you can't do KR"

16:23:49 [Uli]

FrankMcCabe: doesn't think that FOL is a requirement (?) since "if you can't do FOL, you can't do KR"

16:24:15 [Uli]

thanks, sandro

16:24:26 [sandro]

Frank: Which aspects, eg universally quanitied variables, etc.

16:24:44 [ChrisW]

q?

16:24:58 [Uli]

csma: suggests that Frank means is something between requirement and csf

16:25:05 [AlexK]

FOL is quite important for KR appplications, exchanging those between companies is very useful

16:25:41 [Uli]

Frank: as an example "we need to express existentially quantified variables" would be more like a csf

16:25:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]

q+

16:25:52 [csma]

I clarified that Franck said that FOL was too specific to be a csf but not specific enough to be a requirement

16:25:55 [sandro]

Frank: it's a short circuit to jump to FOL

16:26:02 [Uli]

Frank: "we need FOL" is to short since FOL is a technology

16:26:12 [csma]

ack sandr

16:26:12 [Zakim]

sandro, you wanted to argue that things like "sorted" don't matter for this purpose

16:26:44 [ChrisW]

ack h

16:26:51 [sandro]

Sandro: I think "FOL" is the right level of granularity for this year.

16:26:56 [Uli]

Hassan: it concerned about "theories" are "rules"

16:27:06 [LeoraMorgenstern]

+1 with sandro

16:27:29 [Uli]

Hassan: there are too many ways to describe the same theory (gentzen, sequents, etc),

16:27:45 [ChrisW]

q?

16:27:53 [csma]

q+

16:28:07 [Uli]

Hassan: wants to know whether RIF is about "(deduction) rule interchange" or "theory interchange"

16:28:25 [JosDeRoo]

q+

16:28:34 [ChrisW]

ack l

16:28:42 [sandro]

Sandro: I'm just talking about standard, textbook, FOL here, as something we need to support in an extension.

16:28:45 [JosDeRoo]

q-

16:29:13 [sandro]

LeoraMorgenstern: FOL is a cohesive whole, too, to it's a good point of granularity.

16:29:13 [ChrisW]

q?

16:29:26 [Uli]

leora: sees lots of little requirements as suggested by sandro, and then the risk of people taking subsets of these and obtaining unintended things

16:30:02 [Uli]

ChrisW: points out importance of clarity in the requirements formulation

16:30:16 [ChrisW]

q?

16:30:25 [Uli]

leora: points out the risk of mini-requirements

16:30:34 [ChrisW]

q?

16:30:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Uli --- it wasn't sandro who suggested little requirements; it was frank

16:30:50 [Uli]

ChrisW: topic AOB

16:30:54 [Zakim]

-JosDeRoo

16:30:56 [PaulaP]

bye

16:30:56 [PaulV]

bye

16:30:57 [Zakim]

-Gary_Hallmark

16:30:58 [Zakim]

-Harold

16:30:59 [Zakim]

-Michael_Kifer

16:30:59 [JeffP]

bye

16:31:00 [Zakim]

-Hassan_Ait-Kaci

16:31:00 [Deborah_Nichols]

bye

16:31:01 [Zakim]

-MarkusK

16:31:01 [MalaMehrotra]

bye

16:31:01 [MoZ_]

bye

16:31:02 [Zakim]

-pfps

16:31:03 [Zakim]

-FrankMcCabe

16:31:04 [Uli]

bye bye

16:31:04 [Zakim]

-David_Hirtle

16:31:05 [Zakim]

-Andreas_Harth

16:31:07 [Zakim]

-Deborah_Nichols

16:31:09 [Zakim]

-LeoraMorgenstern

16:31:10 [igor]

bye

16:31:11 [Zakim]

-AlexK

16:31:13 [Zakim]

-PaulV

16:31:15 [Zakim]

-Igor_Mozetic

16:31:17 [Zakim]

-PaulaP

16:31:19 [Zakim]

-Jeff_Pan

16:31:21 [Zakim]

-Mike_Dean

16:31:22 [sandro]

alex, you left....

16:31:23 [Zakim]

-IanH

16:31:25 [Zakim]

-johnhall

16:31:27 [Zakim]

-Mala_Mehrotra

16:31:29 [Zakim]

-MoZ_

16:31:33 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:31:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-rif-minutes.html ChrisW

16:32:05 [sandro]

rrsagent, make minutes public

16:32:05 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', sandro. Try /msg RRSAgent help

16:32:25 [sandro]

rrsagent, make record public

16:33:22 [Zakim]

-uli

16:33:25 [Zakim]

-sandro

16:33:33 [sandro]

oh hold on

16:33:50 [sandro]

ls

16:33:55 [sandro]

zakim, who is here?

16:33:55 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, ipsandro (muted)

16:33:56 [Zakim]

On IRC I see JeffP, Uli, MoZ_, Harold, AlexK, igor, LeoraMorgenstern, Deborah_Nichols, MarkusK, IanH, DavidHirtle, csma, mdean, FrankMcCabe, pfps, sandro, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW,

16:33:58 [Zakim]

... Keeper

16:34:04 [sandro]

zakim, unmute ipsandro

16:34:04 [Zakim]

ipsandro should no longer be muted

16:35:23 [csma]

zakim, who is on the call?

16:35:23 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, ipsandro

16:36:27 [sandro]

zakim, mute ipsandro

16:36:27 [Zakim]

ipsandro should now be muted

16:36:43 [sandro]

zakim, unmute ipsandro

16:36:44 [Zakim]

ipsandro should no longer be muted

16:38:53 [Zakim]

-ChrisW

16:38:56 [Zakim]

-csma

16:39:01 [Zakim]

-ipsandro

16:39:02 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended

16:39:03 [Zakim]

Attendees were pfps, +4279aaaa, ChrisW, csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, MarkusK, Andreas_Harth, FrankMcCabe, Deborah_Nichols, IanH, PaulaP, Jeff_Pan, Igor_Mozetic, LeoraMorgenstern,

16:39:08 [Zakim]

... David_Hirtle, +33.8.72.47.aabb, Harold, johnhall, ipsandro, Mike_Dean, Mala_Mehrotra, JosDeRoo, GiorgosStoilos, uli, Michael_Kifer, PaulV, sandro, MoZ_, Gary_Hallmark, AlexK

17:37:54 [Harold]

Harold has left #rif

17:57:02 [csma]

csma has left #rif

19:00:38 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #rif

19:13:53 [sandro]

sandro has joined #rif