14:45:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:45:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-rif-irc
14:45:35 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:45:35 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:49:17 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
14:50:46 <sandro> zakim, this will be rif
14:50:46 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
14:50:54 <pfps> pfps has joined #rif
14:50:56 <patranja> patranja has joined #rif
14:53:01 <FrankMcCabe> FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
14:53:13 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
14:53:16 <csma> csma has joined #rif
14:54:15 <DavidHirtle> DavidHirtle has joined #rif
14:55:08 <IanH> IanH has joined #rif
14:55:24 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:55:31 <Zakim> +??P0
14:55:35 <Zakim> -??P0
14:55:36 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
14:55:37 <Zakim> Attendees were 
14:56:04 <sandro> zakim, this wil be rif
14:56:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this wil be rif', sandro
14:56:10 <sandro> zakim, this will be rif
14:56:11 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:13 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:56:19 <Zakim> +??P0
14:56:28 <pfps> zakim, ??p0 is me
14:56:28 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
14:57:11 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:57:22 <Zakim> + +4279aaaa
14:57:30 <ChrisW> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
14:57:30 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
14:57:34 <csma> zakim, aaaa is me
14:57:34 <Zakim> +csma; got it
14:57:37 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
14:57:51 <MarkusK> MarkusK has joined #rif
14:58:26 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
14:58:38 <aharth> aharth has joined #rif
14:58:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:29 <Zakim> +??P33
14:59:37 <Zakim> +Andreas_Harth (was ??P33)
14:59:48 <Zakim> +[Fujitsu]
14:59:49 <Deborah_Nichols> Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
14:59:58 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, fujitsu is me
14:59:58 <Zakim> +FrankMcCabe; got it
15:00:06 <Zakim> +??P35
15:00:19 <Zakim> +Deborah_Nichols
15:00:27 <Zakim> +??P36
15:00:39 <sandro> zakim, ??P36 is sandro_testing
15:00:39 <Zakim> +sandro_testing; got it
15:00:45 <Zakim> +[LMU]
15:00:57 <sandro> zakim, mute sandro_testing
15:00:57 <Zakim> sandro_testing should now be muted
15:01:07 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #rif
15:02:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:02:28 <johnhall> johnhall has joined #rif
15:02:31 <IanH> +1
15:02:32 <igor> igor has joined #rif
15:03:02 <AlexK> AlexK has joined #rif
15:03:06 <Zakim> +Jeff_Pan
15:03:11 <Zakim> +Igor_Mozetic
15:03:13 <Zakim> +??P44
15:03:25 <igor> zakim, mute me
15:03:25 <Zakim> Igor_Mozetic should now be muted
15:03:28 <IanH> zakim, unmute me
15:03:28 <Zakim> IanH should no longer be muted
15:03:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, ??P44 is me
15:03:36 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:03:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:03:43 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:04:09 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:04:18 <Zakim> +David_Hirtle
15:04:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:22 <PaulV> PaulV has joined #RIF
15:04:46 <MoZ_> MoZ_ has joined #rif
15:05:08 <Zakim> + +33.8.72.47.aabb
15:05:08 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:05:13 <IanH> zakim, mute me
15:05:13 <Zakim> IanH should now be muted
15:05:21 <Harold> zakim [NRCC] is me
15:05:26 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:05:36 <MoZ_> Zakim aabb is MoZ
15:05:39 <csma> zakim, who is on the call
15:05:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', csma
15:05:43 <AlexK> I cannot connect, I can't hear anything
15:05:49 <csma> zakim, who is on the call?
15:05:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, ChrisW, csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, MarkusK (muted), Andreas_Harth, FrankMcCabe, IanH (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), sandro_testing (muted), PaulaP (muted),
15:05:52 <Zakim> ... Jeff_Pan, Igor_Mozetic (muted), LeoraMorgenstern (muted), David_Hirtle (muted), +33.8.72.47.aabb, [NRCC]
15:05:58 <sandro> AlexK, what happens when you try?
15:05:59 <johnhall> johnhall has joined #rif
15:06:09 <Zakim> +Sandro.a
15:06:12 <MoZ_> Zakim, +aabb is MoZ
15:06:12 <Zakim> sorry, MoZ_, I do not recognize a party named '+aabb'
15:06:12 <sandro> zakim, mute me
15:06:13 <Zakim> 'sandro' is ambiguous, sandro
15:06:13 <Harold> Zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:06:13 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:06:19 <AlexK> I'm typing in the conference call, I'm on the phone--total silence
15:06:20 <JosDeRoo> JosDeRoo has joined #rif
15:06:43 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
15:06:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, ChrisW, csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, MarkusK (muted), Andreas_Harth, FrankMcCabe, IanH (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), sandro_testing (muted), PaulaP (muted),
15:06:46 <Zakim> ... Jeff_Pan, Igor_Mozetic (muted), LeoraMorgenstern (muted), David_Hirtle (muted), +33.8.72.47.aabb, Harold, Sandro.a (muted)
15:06:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see JosDeRoo, johnhall, MoZ_, PaulV, Harold, AlexK, igor, LeoraMorgenstern, JeffP, Deborah_Nichols, aharth, MarkusK, Hassan, IanH, DavidHirtle, csma, mdean, FrankMcCabe,
15:06:52 <Zakim> ... PaulaP, pfps, sandro, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW, Keeper
15:06:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:07:00 <MoZ_> Zakim, aabb is MoZ
15:07:00 <Zakim> +MoZ; got it
15:07:05 <johnhall> zakim, IPcaller is me
15:07:05 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
15:07:13 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:07:13 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:07:15 <AlexK> Let me check: +1.617.761.6200 conference code 74394#
15:07:23 <sandro> zakim, sandro_testing is ipsandro
15:07:24 <Zakim> +ipsandro; got it
15:07:27 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:07:35 <sandro> zakim, Sandro.a is Sandro
15:07:39 <Zakim> +Sandro; got it
15:07:43 <MalaMehrotra> MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
15:08:11 <Zakim> +??P49
15:08:15 <GiorgosStoilos> GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif
15:08:31 <Uli> Uli has joined #rif
15:08:44 <Zakim> +Mala_Mehrotra
15:08:47 <ChrisW> uli, can you scribe?
15:08:47 <JosDeRoo> Zakim, ??P49 is JosDeRoo
15:08:47 <Zakim> +JosDeRoo; got it
15:09:21 <Zakim> +??P51
15:09:45 <Zakim> +??P52
15:09:55 <Zakim> +[IVML]
15:10:00 <AlexK> I've joined finally
15:10:05 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:10:17 <GiorgosStoilos> zakim, [IVML] is me
15:10:17 <Zakim> +GiorgosStoilos; got it
15:10:23 <Uli> zakim, ??p51 is uli
15:10:23 <Zakim> +uli; got it
15:10:38 <ChrisW> scribenick: uli
15:11:20 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
15:11:23 <ChrisW> updated minutes: [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/0036.html]
15:11:42 <Uli> Hassan: minutes don't make sense at one point:
15:11:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, unmute me
15:11:47 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
15:11:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> q
15:11:52 <IanH> zakim, unmute me
15:11:52 <Zakim> IanH should no longer be muted
15:12:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
15:12:16 <Uli> Hassan: chronolgy is unclear 
15:12:17 <LeoraMorgenstern> q-
15:12:25 <LeoraMorgenstern> I'm off the queue; Ian said what I wanted to say.
15:12:58 <Uli> Hassan: doubts whether jiggsaw-puzzle can be accepted
15:13:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:13:12 <sandro> q+ to comment on +1 in IRC
15:13:18 <Uli> Chris: explains how "+1" is always difficult,
15:13:37 <pfps> +1 :-)
15:13:57 <sandro> zakim, unmute me
15:13:57 <Zakim> Sandro should no longer be muted
15:14:07 <Uli> Christian: advises scribes to add stuff as long as it's fresh in their mind.
15:14:10 <Deborah_Nichols> I can send some amplification from my notes
15:14:18 <Uli> Hassan no longer objects
15:14:20 <ChrisW> +1
15:14:31 <MoZ_> +1
15:14:33 <ChrisW> +1 to ian
15:14:46 <sandro> q?
15:14:51 <Uli> IanH suggest to wait with "+1" until scribe has scribed
15:14:55 <MoZ_> +1 to make clearer +1
15:15:04 <sandro> zakim, who is muted?
15:15:04 <Zakim> I see MarkusK, Deborah_Nichols, ipsandro, PaulaP, Igor_Mozetic, David_Hirtle, johnhall, uli muted
15:15:18 <sandro> ack Sandro
15:15:18 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to comment on +1 in IRC
15:15:23 <Uli> ChrisW: no objections to accept the minutes? 
15:15:25 <Harold> +1 to minutes
15:15:27 <csma> +1 to accept minutes
15:15:40 <PaulaP> +1 to accept minutes
15:15:42 <JosDeRoo> Zakim, mute me
15:15:42 <Zakim> JosDeRoo should now be muted
15:15:46 <MalaMehrotra> MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
15:16:06 <Uli> Sandro: suggest to "annotate" the "+1"s with what you agree with (as in all the examples above)
15:16:25 <MarkusK> +1 to stating what one agrees to ;-)
15:16:33 <sandro> zakim, Sandro is sandro
15:16:33 <Zakim> +sandro; got it
15:16:36 <Uli> CHrisW: minutes are accepted
15:16:36 <sandro> zakim, mute me
15:16:36 <Zakim> sandro should now be muted
15:16:58 <Uli> ChrisW: Christian's action 
15:17:30 <Uli> Christian: RIF telecon overlaps with Sparql telecon because of Boston time/universal time difference
15:17:54 <sandro> zakim, who is muted?
15:17:54 <Zakim> I see Hassan_Ait-Kaci, MarkusK, IanH, Deborah_Nichols, ipsandro, PaulaP, Igor_Mozetic, David_Hirtle, sandro, johnhall, JosDeRoo, uli muted
15:17:55 <Uli> ChristianW: has checked that there are no rules as to which time should be used for WGs
15:18:29 <MoZ_> Zakim, MoZ_ is MoZ
15:18:29 <Zakim> sorry, MoZ_, I do not recognize a party named 'MoZ_'
15:18:36 <Uli> Christian: we could switch to UTC, but this will mean 1 hour later.
15:18:44 <MoZ_> Zakim, MoZ is MoZ_
15:18:44 <Zakim> +MoZ_; got it
15:19:14 <Uli> ChrisW: anybody wants to stay wrt constant? 
15:19:24 <MoZ_> just prefer no overlapping
15:19:37 <Uli> ChrisW: which means "no summertime"
15:20:02 <Uli> ??? prefers this because otherwise, RIF members can't participate in SPARQL meeting
15:20:03 <csma> ACTION: Christian will investigate overlap with SPARQL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUED]
15:20:28 <csma> q?
15:20:37 <Hassan> q+
15:20:41 <csma> q?
15:20:47 <Uli> Joos: finds summertime in general annoying
15:20:59 <sandro> s/Joos/JosDeRoo/
15:21:00 <csma> ack hassan
15:21:24 <Uli> ChrisW: explains 2 problems: changing to/from summertime and soarql overlap
15:22:08 <pfps> there are places that don't go on summer time at all
15:22:35 <Uli> ChrisW: isn't sure whether Rif's time is changeable
15:22:54 <Uli> ChrisW: F2F meeting: 
15:22:57 <sandro> Topic: F2F
15:23:11 <csma> ACTION: chair to put design for extensibility and discussion of proposals on agenda for next telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html#action14] [DONE]
15:23:14 <Uli> ChrisW: repeats warning about filling flights to Dubrovnik
15:23:36 <Hassan> +1 to posting a page on travel
15:23:49 <Uli> ChrisW: suggest to put up a page to register, Sandro?
15:24:06 <AlexK> I am enquiring with the management about my availability
15:24:12 <PaulaP> we can use the information found at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F3/TravelTimes
15:24:13 <AlexK> for the F2F
15:24:28 <Uli> Sandro: ok, for registration and also travel times for co-ordination...
15:24:38 <Hassan> q+
15:24:53 <Uli> Sandro: will set up a RIF registration page 
15:24:55 <csma> ACTION: Sandro to set up registration page for F2F3
15:25:03 <csma> ack hassan
15:25:30 <Hassan> q-
15:25:33 <Uli> ChrisW: SW conference will organize travel arrangements from the airport, and we need to co-ordinate with them
15:25:40 <AlexK> I can't access teh travel times page--not allowed to view this page
15:26:02 <MichaelKifer> q+
15:26:03 <csma> it seems likz the W3C site is down
15:26:06 <sandro> AlexK, you need to login to the wiki to get to that page.    (BUt that page is now obsolete, if I understand correctly.)
15:26:17 <PaulaP> at moment it is not really clear whether the ESWC organizers will provide such a form 
15:26:37 <Uli> MKifer: are the visa requirements for Montenegro?
15:27:07 <AlexK> Croatia should be fine for most of us
15:27:08 <Uli> MKifer: and visa for Croatia?
15:27:26 <MarkusK> Btw. Michael Sintek and I are going to Tivat
15:27:37 <PaulaP> there is information on the ESWC web page
15:27:37 <Deborah_Nichols> the country is Serbia and Montenegro. There is no Yugoslavia any more.
15:27:41 <IanH> We couldn't be so lucky as to be unable to go there!
15:27:46 <PaulaP> q+
15:27:51 <AlexK> http://www.southtravels.com/europe/serbiamontenegro/visa.html
15:27:51 <Uli> Uli: ask your travel agent!
15:28:02 <igor> http://www.mfa.gov.yu/Visas/VisasR.htm
15:28:05 <AlexK> Have a look above
15:28:10 <igor> visa info for Montenegro
15:28:16 <PaulaP> http://www.mfa.gov.yu/Visas/VisasR.htm
15:28:19 <MichaelKifer> q-
15:28:46 <Uli> Christian: seems most citizens won't need a visa...
15:29:36 <Uli> ChrisW: reminder that next week is deadline for proposals for F2F4
15:29:39 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:29:49 <Uli> ChrisW: currently, there are 2 proposals
15:30:04 <Uli> ChrisW: Liasons?
15:30:12 <sandro> topic: Liason
15:30:24 <PaulV> OMG PRR: no news from liason
15:30:48 <Uli> ChrisW; Use cases, actions check
15:31:00 <csma> ACTION: Christian to send email to propose resolution that decidability is a non-requirement and gather relevant arguments before next telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action14] [DONE]
15:31:08 <Uli> ChrisW: ...?action continued
15:31:12 <sandro> zakim, unmute me
15:31:12 <Zakim> sandro was not muted, sandro
15:31:13 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:31:23 <csma> ACTION: Frank will produce an initial diagram with existing constraints [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUED]
15:31:44 <Uli> ChrisW: decidability proposal
15:32:32 <Uli> csma: was not comfortable with WG deciding "non-requirements", prefers requirements, etc
15:33:17 <Uli> csma: so far, nobody submitted a requirement on decidability, 
15:33:48 <csma> ACTION: MickaelK to extend page on pure prolog and give a precise definition (according to standard publications) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action13] [DONE]
15:34:02 <Uli> csma: suggests to come up with a requirement that makes decidability a non-requirement
15:34:22 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/0005.html
15:34:30 <Uli> ChrisW: topic: Dave's proposal
15:34:35 <DavidHirtle> I think he posted regrets on the wiki
15:34:37 <csma> ACTION: sandro to clarify meaning of sound and what is the requirement on RIF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action11] [CONTINUED]
15:35:13 <csma> ACTION: Sandro to clarify whether sound reasoning constraint with unknown dialects is a requirement or a critical success factor [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/04-rif-minutes.html#action12] [CONTINUED]
15:35:14 <Uli> ChrisW: Dave's proposal is a good example of a requirement
15:35:24 <Uli> ChrisW: any comments on this?
15:36:02 <sandro> q?
15:36:12 <Uli> csma: if we agree on a requirement/goal/etc., then they should be linked with other things on the web page
15:36:28 <csma> ACTION: Evan to publicize to ODM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html#action09] [DONE]
15:37:02 <MichaelKifer> q+
15:37:11 <PaulaP> q-
15:37:14 <Uli> sandro: we could use Dave's proposal as a "structural example" and have the others follow it
15:37:16 <pfps> Here we are getting into a problem similar to that brought up by Hassan - the log is not close to the timeline of the call
15:37:36 <Uli> csma: disagrees
15:37:46 <sandro> Chris: Do we like this CSF Methodology?
15:38:07 <csma> q?
15:38:07 <Uli> chrisW: explains that we only meant the "abstract structure", not the specific proposal 
15:38:33 <Uli> who is speaking?
15:38:42 <sandro> FrankMcCabe
15:39:38 <Uli> FMC: Sees some up-side down thinking and suggests to concentrate on goals before we go to requirements
15:40:15 <Uli> csma: reminds that requirements can only come with critical success factors
15:40:16 <sandro> q?
15:40:17 <ChrisW> q?
15:40:50 <sandro> Frank: Mine goals from the charter.
15:40:51 <Uli> FMC: suggests too mine charta for goals
15:41:05 <csma> ack michaelk
15:41:32 <Uli> MKifer: seconds FMC's suggestions, and observes that Dave's proposal is vague in parts
15:42:02 <Uli> MKifer: e.g., "effective" and "sufficiently few dialects"
15:42:27 <Uli> MKifer: doesn't understand implications of several points in Dave's proposal
15:42:28 <PaulaP> +1 to more clear and detailed constraints
15:42:49 <Uli> csma: suggests to add details and comments on the wiki
15:43:12 <sandro> zakim, mute me
15:43:12 <Zakim> sandro should now be muted
15:43:14 <Uli> MKifer: suggests to avoid "general words"
15:43:33 <Uli> csma: suggests to add examples for implementation of a requirement
15:44:05 <Uli> ChrisW: what's the relation between hierarchy and goals and design constraints?
15:44:31 <Uli> csma: there are "dependencies" to be added
15:44:45 <Uli> csma: and which will be visualised
15:44:51 <sandro> q+ to ask if it's a tree or a lattice?
15:44:54 <MichaelKifer> q-
15:45:01 <Uli> ChrisW: sees representation problem
15:45:27 <sandro> zakim, unmute me
15:45:27 <Zakim> sandro should no longer be muted
15:45:54 <Uli> ChrisW: we would need levels in hierarchy, to have structure between constraints
15:46:20 <csma> q?
15:46:43 <csma> ack sandro
15:46:43 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask if it's a tree or a lattice?
15:46:55 <Uli> FMC: explains how adding more justifications for a requirement makes it stronger 
15:47:08 <sandro> Frank: It's important to know all the reasons why a Requirement is important (ie a lattice)
15:48:53 <Uli> ChrisW: wants to know how to indicate direction of link?
15:49:01 <sandro> Sandro: I like "Motivation"
15:49:14 <sandro> paste link to what you're loking at, folks.
15:50:18 <Uli> csma: explains how dependencies work between requirements and critical design factors...
15:50:24 <sandro> q+ to suggest a simple way to do the structure
15:51:08 <AlexK> critical SUCCESS factors
15:51:25 <Uli> sandro: suggest to make things easier by using an indented list for requirements
15:51:31 <csma> ack sandro
15:51:31 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to suggest a simple way to do the structure
15:51:51 <Uli> sandro: and to add cdfs explicitly
15:52:21 <Uli> ChrisW: and link requirements to detailed ...goals?
15:52:44 <Uli> ChrisW: this would make structure more apparent
15:52:59 <ChrisW> [http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/RIF_must_define_for_all_RIF_elements_a_default_behaviour_for_compliant_applications_that_do_not_know_how_to_process_it]
15:53:20 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/RIF_must_define_for_all_RIF_elements_a_default_behaviour_for_compliant_applications_that_do_not_know_how_to_process_it
15:54:00 <Uli> ChrisW: (using this one because its complete)...reads out an example from csma
15:54:07 <sandro> topic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/RIF_must_define_for_all_RIF_elements_a_default_behaviour_for_compliant_applications_that_do_not_know_how_to_process_it
15:54:55 <Uli> ChrisW: comments on requirement that compliant applications must be able to handle in a predictable way
15:55:22 <Uli> csma: suggests that we start with a less complex one
15:55:33 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/RIF_Core_must_cover_pure_Prolog
15:55:44 <Uli> ChrisW: so, comments on "Rif core must cover pure prolog"?
15:56:17 <Uli> ChrisW: reminds that we already discussed difficulty with "pure prolog"
15:56:24 <pfps> q+
15:57:11 <Uli> csma: suggests to remove "core" from this requirement
15:57:14 <MichaelKifer> q+
15:57:28 <igor> q+
15:57:44 <sandro> +1 to csma, it's too early to argue that RIF **Core** should cover pure Prolog
15:57:45 <Uli> csma: would prefer that this is "Rif standard or Rif core"
15:58:05 <GaryHallmark> +1 to remove core.  Core seems by definition the intersection of the other requirements
15:58:41 <Uli> csma: in general, would prefer to be a bit more complete/global wrt different Rifs
16:00:01 <Uli> pfps: even pure prolog is "very complicated", and suggests to decide whether/where we need to cover this 
16:00:37 <Uli> pfps: suggests to replace "pure prolog" with "X", for a simpler logic
16:01:18 <Uli> pfps: it's inappropriate to talk about ISO standards here, and thus pure prolog is difficult
16:01:32 <igor> ack me
16:01:46 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Apr/author.html
16:01:54 <csma> ack pfps
16:02:12 <MarkusK> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Pure_Prolog
16:02:37 <Uli> Igor: explains that all information is found at the prolog wiki page
16:02:53 <PaulaP> +1 to pfps on finding the motivation of using pure prolog here
16:02:59 <Uli> pfps: what about occurs check?
16:03:31 <Uli> Igor: suggests to accept MKifer's suggestion to drop pure prolog
16:04:22 <Harold> q+
16:04:42 <Uli> ChrisW: action on Igor, to explain what we mean on the wiki
16:05:10 <Uli> ChrisW: it's up to requirement's authors as to whether this will be prolog or Horn or...
16:05:26 <Uli> Igor: suggests to replace pure prolog with "horn clauses"
16:05:53 <Uli> ChrisW: Horn clauses is not unambiguous either...
16:05:57 <ChrisW> q?
16:06:15 <Uli> sandro: any suggestions for a new name for "pure prolog"?
16:06:39 <Uli> MKifer: repeats from his email: pp is horn plus ordering
16:07:36 <Uli> csma: clarifies his previous remark, that requirements shouldn't target specific RIF variants
16:07:58 <Uli> csma: this discussion should be left to a later point in time
16:08:17 <JosDeRoo> q+
16:08:17 <Uli> csma: wants to get a complete picture first
16:08:18 <MichaelKifer> q-
16:08:39 <igor> q-
16:08:40 <csma> ACTION: Sandro and Igor to find a name+definition for the "pure prolog" requirement that does not mention "pure prolog"
16:08:59 <Uli> Harold: agrees with MKifer, and suggests "Ordered Horn clauses"
16:09:13 <Uli> Harold: because both ordering of literals and rules is important
16:09:13 <ChrisW> ach harold
16:09:17 <pfps> An interesting page on ISO Prolog is http://pauillac.inria.fr/~deransar/prolog/docs.html.   The page seems to indicate that the occurs check is somehow optional, at least in some situations.
16:09:18 <JosDeRoo> Zakim, unmute me
16:09:18 <Zakim> JosDeRoo should no longer be muted
16:09:19 <ChrisW> ach\k harold
16:09:23 <ChrisW> ack harold
16:09:25 <Zakim> -GiorgosStoilos
16:09:28 <Harold> We can now define positively what we converged to mean by "Pure Prolog": "Ordered Horn clause".
16:09:29 <ChrisW> ack jos
16:09:32 <csma> ACTION: Sandro to discuss on email whether the "pure prolog" requirement can be replaced by a "horn logic" requirement or if we need both
16:10:06 <Uli> JDR: agrees with Harold, and points out how complicated prolog is (with occurs check and such like)
16:10:40 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Extended_RIF_must_cover_FOL
16:10:44 <Uli> ChrisW: next design constraint: extended RIF ...
16:10:54 <sandro> topic: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Extended_RIF_must_cover_FOL
16:11:27 <Uli> FMC: wants to know critical success factor of FOL
16:11:33 <Harold> "Ordered Horn Clauses" could be the result of annotating "Horn Clauses".
16:11:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, unmute me
16:11:36 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern was not muted, LeoraMorgenstern
16:11:39 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
16:12:03 <csma> ack leora
16:12:04 <MalaMehrotra> q+
16:12:09 <AlexK> I'll just merely say about the FOL that it captures requirements in some applications
16:12:23 <Uli> LMo: explains that FOL is important because of expressiveness
16:12:40 <csma> +1 to FOL being impotant because of expressiveness
16:13:04 <Uli> ChrisW: reminds that we are talking about "critical success factors"
16:13:25 <MichaelKifer> q+
16:13:30 <ChrisW> q?
16:13:33 <csma> q+ toquestion FOL being a requirement az opposed to a csf and it being for extended RIF
16:13:44 <csma> q+
16:13:45 <sandro> perhaps:   goal = RIF must be useful for KR   ?
16:14:06 <Uli> LMo: will formulate critical success factor for FOL
16:14:19 <Uli> LMo: ...and expressiveness
16:14:23 <AlexK> do we have meta-definitions of Goal, Requirement, CSF?
16:15:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> Uli, could you cite me as Leora instead of LMo?
16:15:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> I didn't know who LMo is, and no-one else will ...
16:15:23 <Uli> MalaM: seconds "RIF should cover FOL" 
16:15:25 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html
16:15:26 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/LMo/leora
16:15:55 <AlexK> Am I identified?
16:16:13 <Uli> MKifer: proposes that we apply same standard to FOL as to pure prologue, and hence to explain exactly what we mean by FOL
16:16:27 <sandro> I don't think so, AlexK.    Try pressing "41#" on your telephone keypad.
16:16:29 <ChrisW> q?
16:16:30 <MichaelKifer> q-
16:16:31 <Hassan> +1 with Mike
16:16:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> q
16:16:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
16:16:41 <ChrisW> ack mala
16:16:44 <ChrisW> ack csma
16:17:02 <MarkusK> q+
16:17:13 <AlexK> I have typed it then what
16:17:16 <Uli> csma: (1) "extended RIF" will cover everything since it will be extensible
16:17:24 <sandro> Zakim, ??P52 is AlexK
16:17:25 <Zakim> +AlexK; got it
16:17:34 <sandro> q- ??P52
16:17:48 <AlexK> Zakim, is this a requirement to type it once you on the phone?
16:17:48 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AlexK.
16:17:52 <sandro> Thanks, AlexK, that was enough. 
16:17:54 <Uli> csma: (2) agrees that FOL is important, but he thinks that it is a critical success factor
16:18:06 <AlexK> Do I do it always when I join?
16:18:08 <FrankMcCabe> q+
16:18:12 <MalaMehrotra> +1 to csma
16:18:18 <ChrisW> ack leora
16:18:31 <sandro> No, AlexK.    Um, but let's talk about this after the telecon.
16:18:39 <Uli> leora: asks (procedural) how we agree on what we mean by FOL
16:18:49 <sandro> q?
16:18:56 <Uli> ChrisW: the champions decide what they mean, and then we revise it
16:19:24 <sandro> q+ to argue that things like "sorted" don't matter for this purpose
16:19:37 <ChrisW> ack mark
16:20:15 <Hassan> q+
16:20:17 <Uli> MarkusK: wondered in how far "rule set" is ...?
16:20:21 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #rif
16:20:23 <Uli> neither am i
16:20:38 <Uli> MarkusK: do we find "rules" in FOL?
16:21:05 <Uli> MarkusK: that is, can we view any FOL theory as a rule set?
16:21:13 <sandro> Markus: does using the word Ruleset mean we're only talking about part of FOL?
16:21:32 <Uli> ChrisW: so we need to clarify the relation between "rule set" and FOL 
16:21:58 <ChrisW> q?
16:22:06 <Uli> sandro: points out that "FOL" should mean "arbitrary FOL theories"
16:22:12 <ChrisW> ack fr
16:22:50 <sandro> Frank: CSF might be "you have to support KR", FOL is not a CSF
16:23:00 <Uli> FrankMcCabe: doesn't think that FOL is critical success factor because it is ..KR..?
16:23:44 <sandro> Frank: as in, "if you can't do FOL, you can't do KR"
16:23:49 <Uli> FrankMcCabe: doesn't think that FOL is a requirement (?) since "if you can't do FOL, you can't do KR"
16:24:15 <Uli> thanks, sandro
16:24:26 <sandro> Frank: Which aspects, eg universally quanitied variables, etc.
16:24:44 <ChrisW> q?
16:24:58 <Uli> csma: suggests that Frank means is something between requirement and csf
16:25:05 <AlexK> FOL is quite important for KR appplications, exchanging those between companies is very useful
16:25:41 <Uli> Frank: as an example "we need to express existentially quantified variables" would be more like a csf
16:25:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
16:25:52 <csma> I clarified that Franck said that FOL was too specific to be a csf but not specific enough to be a requirement
16:25:55 <sandro> Frank: it's a short circuit to jump to FOL
16:26:02 <Uli> Frank: "we need FOL" is to short since FOL is a technology
16:26:12 <csma> ack sandr
16:26:12 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to argue that things like "sorted" don't matter for this purpose
16:26:44 <ChrisW> ack h
16:26:51 <sandro> Sandro: I think "FOL" is the right level of granularity for this year.
16:26:56 <Uli> Hassan: it concerned about "theories" are "rules"
16:27:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> +1 with sandro
16:27:29 <Uli> Hassan: there are too many ways to describe the same theory (gentzen, sequents, etc),  
16:27:45 <ChrisW> q?
16:27:53 <csma> q+
16:28:07 <Uli> Hassan: wants to know whether RIF is about "(deduction) rule interchange" or "theory interchange"
16:28:25 <JosDeRoo> q+
16:28:34 <ChrisW> ack l
16:28:42 <sandro> Sandro: I'm just talking about standard, textbook, FOL here, as something we need to support in an extension.
16:28:45 <JosDeRoo> q-
16:29:13 <sandro> LeoraMorgenstern: FOL is a cohesive whole, too, to it's a good point of granularity.
16:29:13 <ChrisW> q?
16:29:26 <Uli> leora: sees lots of little requirements as suggested by sandro, and then the risk of people taking subsets of these and obtaining unintended things 
16:30:02 <Uli> ChrisW: points out importance of clarity in the requirements formulation
16:30:16 <ChrisW> q?
16:30:25 <Uli> leora: points out the risk of mini-requirements
16:30:34 <ChrisW> q?
16:30:46 <LeoraMorgenstern> Uli --- it wasn't sandro who suggested little requirements; it was frank 
16:30:50 <Uli> ChrisW: topic AOB
16:30:54 <Zakim> -JosDeRoo
16:30:56 <PaulaP> bye
16:30:56 <PaulV> bye
16:30:57 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:30:58 <Zakim> -Harold
16:30:59 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
16:30:59 <JeffP> bye
16:31:00 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:31:00 <Deborah_Nichols> bye
16:31:01 <Zakim> -MarkusK
16:31:01 <MalaMehrotra> bye
16:31:01 <MoZ_> bye
16:31:02 <Zakim> -pfps
16:31:03 <Zakim> -FrankMcCabe
16:31:04 <Uli> bye bye
16:31:04 <Zakim> -David_Hirtle
16:31:05 <Zakim> -Andreas_Harth
16:31:07 <Zakim> -Deborah_Nichols
16:31:09 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
16:31:10 <igor> bye
16:31:11 <Zakim> -AlexK
16:31:13 <Zakim> -PaulV
16:31:15 <Zakim> -Igor_Mozetic
16:31:17 <Zakim> -PaulaP
16:31:19 <Zakim> -Jeff_Pan
16:31:21 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:31:22 <sandro> alex, you left....   
16:31:23 <Zakim> -IanH
16:31:25 <Zakim> -johnhall
16:31:27 <Zakim> -Mala_Mehrotra
16:31:29 <Zakim> -MoZ_
16:31:33 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:05 <sandro> rrsagent, make minutes public
16:32:05 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', sandro.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:32:25 <sandro> rrsagent, make record public
16:33:22 <Zakim> -uli
16:33:25 <Zakim> -sandro
16:33:33 <sandro> oh hold on
16:33:50 <sandro> ls
16:33:55 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
16:33:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, ipsandro (muted)
16:33:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see JeffP, Uli, MoZ_, Harold, AlexK, igor, LeoraMorgenstern, Deborah_Nichols, MarkusK, IanH, DavidHirtle, csma, mdean, FrankMcCabe, pfps, sandro, RRSAgent, Zakim, ChrisW,
16:33:58 <Zakim> ... Keeper
16:34:04 <sandro> zakim, unmute ipsandro
16:34:04 <Zakim> ipsandro should no longer be muted
16:35:23 <csma> zakim, who is on the call?
16:35:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, ipsandro
16:36:27 <sandro> zakim, mute ipsandro
16:36:27 <Zakim> ipsandro should now be muted
16:36:43 <sandro> zakim, unmute ipsandro
16:36:44 <Zakim> ipsandro should no longer be muted
16:38:53 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:38:56 <Zakim> -csma
16:39:01 <Zakim> -ipsandro
16:39:02 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:39:03 <Zakim> Attendees were pfps, +4279aaaa, ChrisW, csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, MarkusK, Andreas_Harth, FrankMcCabe, Deborah_Nichols, IanH, PaulaP, Jeff_Pan, Igor_Mozetic, LeoraMorgenstern,
16:39:08 <Zakim> ... David_Hirtle, +33.8.72.47.aabb, Harold, johnhall, ipsandro, Mike_Dean, Mala_Mehrotra, JosDeRoo, GiorgosStoilos, uli, Michael_Kifer, PaulV, sandro, MoZ_, Gary_Hallmark, AlexK
17:37:54 <Harold> Harold has left #rif
17:57:02 <csma> csma has left #rif
19:00:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rif
19:13:53 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif