13:50:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18ncore
13:50:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc
13:50:33 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n core working group
13:50:36 <fsasaki> chair: Francois
13:50:39 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
13:50:46 <fsasaki> scribeNick: fsasaki
13:51:00 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Apr/0028.html
14:00:41 <fsasaki> zakim, dial felix-home
14:00:41 <Zakim> ok, fsasaki; the call is being made
14:00:42 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
14:00:43 <Zakim> +Felix
14:01:48 <fyergeau> fyergeau has joined #i18ncore
14:02:02 <fsasaki> hi Francois
14:02:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:02:51 <fyergeau> zakim, [ is fyergeau
14:02:51 <Zakim> +fyergeau; got it
14:04:33 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18ncore
14:04:41 <r12a> zakim, dial ishida-home
14:04:41 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:04:43 <Zakim> +Ishida
14:05:03 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:05:12 <r12a> zakim, mute ishida
14:05:12 <Zakim> Ishida should now be muted
14:05:17 <fyergeau> zakim, [ is Mary
14:05:18 <Zakim> +Mary; got it
14:06:07 <fsasaki> topic: action items
14:06:13 <r12a> i'd like to add an agenda item: new home page proposal
14:06:37 <fsasaki> action: all to look at the TAG issue (DONE)
14:07:09 <fsasaki> felix: karl said he will not bring the issue to the TAG
14:07:14 <fsasaki> .. for now
14:07:47 <fsasaki> action: everybody to look at the mail about charmod+voicexml (DONE)
14:08:07 <fsasaki> action: Felix ask Max if he can join next week's i18n core call (DONE)
14:08:37 <fsasaki> felix: max and kazuyuki will join us later about this
14:08:51 <fsasaki> action: Felix to write an IRI implementation report (DONE)
14:09:02 <fsasaki> action: Felix to find out where the tests from Martin are located (ONGOING)
14:09:12 <fsasaki> yves: need to follow up on that
14:09:36 <fsasaki> s/yves/francois
14:10:01 <fsasaki> action: felix to go trough LTLI within the next 2 weeks (DONE)
14:10:14 <fsasaki> action: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod (PENDING)
14:10:24 <fsasaki> action: Mary to look at WS Addr  (DONE)
14:10:30 <fsasaki> mary: looked at it
14:10:39 <fsasaki> .. they don't need really comments, it seemed to be o.k.
14:10:43 <fsasaki> .. they use IRIs
14:10:54 <fsasaki> francois: good
14:11:26 <fsasaki> .. so we just forget about it for now
14:11:40 <fsasaki> action: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws i18n (ONGOING)
14:12:03 <fsasaki> topic: charmod + voice xml 2.1
14:12:27 <r12a> zakim, unmute ishida
14:12:27 <Zakim> Ishida should no longer be muted
14:12:33 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Apr/0019.html
14:12:37 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Apr/0020.html
14:16:07 <fsasaki> francois: it is a problem with IPA
14:16:31 <fsasaki> .. but "sounds" in charmod is the sounds as human understand it
14:16:35 <r12a> zakim, unmute ishida
14:16:35 <Zakim> Ishida was not muted, r12a
14:16:37 <fsasaki> .. which IPA is designed for
14:17:36 <fsasaki> richard: if you deal with phonemes
14:17:57 <fsasaki> .. the same phonetic symbol may be pronounced differently, in relation to language
14:18:14 <fsasaki> .. at the phonemic level, there are not fine distinctions
14:19:15 <fsasaki> francois: the full range of a phoneme is language dependent
14:19:24 <fsasaki> .. but SSML is speech synthesis
14:19:42 <fsasaki> .. i.e., you create the IPA character and create a sound which is not language dependend at all
14:20:28 <fsasaki> .. we wrote this MUST because of "normal" writing systems
14:20:39 <fsasaki> .. where is no 1:1 relation between writing and speech
14:20:56 <fsasaki> .. but IPA exists exactly for that
14:22:15 <fsasaki> .. so the MUST NOT needs an exception clause like
14:22:26 <fsasaki> .. "except in the case of phonetic alphabets"
14:23:03 <fsasaki> .. we could integrate this as an errata in charmod
14:23:53 <fsasaki> .. next issue: C013
14:23:56 <fsasaki> .. I agree
14:24:08 <fsasaki> Richard: they don't use the term "encoding" in the same way
14:24:25 <fsasaki> .. they mean a format for representing data, not "character encoding" as we do
14:25:30 <fsasaki> francois: just a misunderstanding, no breaking
14:26:00 <fsasaki> .. next issue: C043:
14:26:04 <fsasaki> .. no breakage
14:26:23 <fsasaki> .. C010: easy to fix
14:27:34 <fsasaki> .. C067: 
14:27:55 <fsasaki> .. they should use a different term, it' possible without breaking anything in their specs
14:28:32 <fsasaki> .. C014:
14:29:04 <fsasaki> .. I don't understand the issue
14:29:37 <fsasaki> richard: I don't see that as an issue
14:29:48 <fsasaki> francois: it is not explicit, that's all
14:30:40 <fsasaki> topic: home page
14:30:44 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/blog/I18NBlog.php
14:31:10 <fsasaki> richard: it is blog based
14:31:31 <fsasaki> .. this will make it much easier to keep the home page up to date
14:31:42 <fsasaki> .. I used to run XSLT processes and a lot of copying
14:31:58 <fsasaki> .. now if you have the permisson to write to the blog, you can do it yourself
14:32:10 <fsasaki> francois: so it is a content management system?
14:32:52 <fsasaki> richard: it is a blog software called D2Evolution
14:33:16 <fsasaki> francois: that sounds good
14:33:34 <fsasaki> .. does it also do excerpting of news items?
14:33:41 <fsasaki> richard: yes
14:34:33 <fsasaki> francois: a good CMS is wonderful
14:34:42 <fsasaki> .. so this would be the HP for the activity
14:34:58 <fsasaki> .. I'm not sure if they are needed for the working group HPs
14:35:05 <fsasaki> .. it is a way of handling news
14:35:28 <fsasaki> richard: you can put other things in as well
14:35:51 <fsasaki> .. it is basically the same page, but with other stuff for handling news
14:35:56 <fsasaki> francois: very nice
14:36:04 <fsasaki> .. it is permisson based?
14:36:07 <fsasaki> richard: yes
14:36:50 <fsasaki> richard: any problems with this?
14:37:22 <fsasaki> everybody likes the idea
14:37:44 <fsasaki> richard: it will be mapped to the normal /International/Overview.html
14:37:55 <fsasaki> .. an internal mapping, you won't see it
14:37:59 <fsasaki> francois: very good
14:38:35 <Kazuyuki> Kazuyuki has joined #i18ncore
14:39:21 <Kazuyuki> think so
14:39:42 <Kazuyuki> I let him know about this channel
14:39:43 <maxf> maxf has joined #i18ncore
14:40:14 <maxf> zakim, dial maxf-skype
14:40:14 <Zakim> ok, maxf; the call is being made
14:40:16 <Zakim> +Maxf
14:40:33 <r12a> maxf, voicemail
14:40:40 <maxf> zakim, drop me
14:40:40 <Zakim> Maxf is being disconnected
14:40:41 <Zakim> -Maxf
14:40:53 <maxf> sorry, forgot to leave other call...
14:40:56 <maxf> Zakim, dial maxf-skype
14:40:57 <Zakim> ok, maxf; the call is being made
14:40:58 <Zakim> +Maxf
14:43:09 <Kazuyuki> zakim, call kazuyuki-home
14:43:09 <Zakim> ok, Kazuyuki; the call is being made
14:43:11 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
14:43:15 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
14:43:19 <Kazuyuki> zakim, call kazuyuki-home
14:43:19 <Zakim> ok, Kazuyuki; the call is being made
14:43:21 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
14:43:25 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
14:43:32 <Kazuyuki> why...
14:43:35 <Kazuyuki> zakim, call kazuyuki-home
14:43:35 <Zakim> ok, Kazuyuki; the call is being made
14:43:37 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
14:43:41 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
14:43:46 <Kazuyuki> hmm
14:44:03 <fyergeau> zakim, who is making noise?
14:44:09 <Kazuyuki> zakim, call Kazuyuki-Home
14:44:09 <Zakim> ok, Kazuyuki; the call is being made
14:44:11 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
14:44:16 <Zakim> fyergeau, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fyergeau (24%)
14:44:42 <Kazuyuki> zakim, who is here?
14:44:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Felix, fyergeau, Ishida, Mary, Maxf, Kazuyuki
14:44:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see maxf, Kazuyuki, r12a, fyergeau, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
14:44:47 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2006Apr/0020.html
14:44:52 <Kazuyuki> zakim, mute me
14:44:52 <Zakim> Kazuyuki should now be muted
14:45:23 <maxf> Zakim, mute me
14:45:23 <Zakim> Maxf should now be muted
14:46:36 <maxf> Zakim, unmute me
14:46:36 <Zakim> Maxf should no longer be muted
14:46:46 <maxf> Zakim, mute me
14:46:46 <Zakim> Maxf should now be muted
14:47:03 <maxf> Zakim, unmute me
14:47:03 <Zakim> Maxf should no longer be muted
14:47:32 <Kazuyuki> max: C001?
14:47:55 <Kazuyuki> hmm. there is terrible echo...
14:47:55 <r12a> "C001 [S] [I] [C] Specifications, software and content MUST NOT
14:47:55 <r12a>  >  require or depend on a one-to-one correspondence between characters
14:47:55 <r12a>  >  and the sounds of a language."
14:48:10 <r12a> +1 to terrible echo
14:48:32 <maxf> Zakim, mute me
14:48:32 <Zakim> Maxf should now be muted
14:48:36 <maxf> echo is me :(
14:48:49 <fsasaki> francois: the don't think that this is an error of charmod, but we need to make clear that the scope of this statement are other languages than IPA
14:49:05 <maxf> Zakim, unmute me
14:49:05 <Zakim> Maxf should no longer be muted
14:49:10 <maxf> Zakim, mute me
14:49:10 <Zakim> Maxf should now be muted
14:49:20 <fsasaki> felix: max, do you want to reply?
14:49:26 <maxf> I just did...
14:49:34 <r12a> we didn't hear you
14:49:37 <maxf> zakim, drop me
14:49:37 <Zakim> Maxf is being disconnected
14:49:39 <Zakim> -Maxf
14:50:24 <Kazuyuki> sorry, max's skype seems bad today...
14:51:26 <maxf> I'll be back in a minute
14:51:29 <fyergeau> ...or the phase of the moon!
14:51:47 <Kazuyuki> heh
14:52:09 <Zakim> +MaxF
14:52:31 <Kazuyuki> zakim, who's here?
14:52:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Felix (muted), fyergeau, Ishida, Mary, Kazuyuki (muted), MaxF
14:52:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see maxf, Kazuyuki, r12a, fyergeau, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
14:53:07 <fsasaki> maxf: I'm fine with amanding c001 that it is not about phonetic languages, but the other ones
14:53:28 <r12a> zakim, mute ishida
14:53:28 <Zakim> Ishida should now be muted
14:53:40 <fsasaki> francois: explains C013 
14:53:57 <fsasaki> .. voice xml documents are XML, i.e. in a single character encoding
14:54:13 <fsasaki> .. DTMF is another data object, we don't see a conflict with charmod
14:54:26 <fsasaki> maxf: I misunderstood what was meant by "data object"
14:54:42 <fsasaki> s/misunderstood/probably misunderstood
14:55:06 <fsasaki> francois: if you use XML, you don't violate C013
14:55:22 <fsasaki> .. C043 : XML breaks that, that is why it is a SHOULD
14:55:32 <fsasaki> .. your spec does it on the virtue of XML
14:55:47 <fsasaki> .. you cannot violate XML in your spec
14:56:07 <fsasaki> maxf: does it make sense to say that documents should conform to charmod?
14:56:17 <fsasaki> francois: yes, as much as it is applicable
14:56:28 <fsasaki> maxf: so if it is XML, does it not come automatically?
14:56:57 <fsasaki> francois: a lot does, but even then a lot of things need to be discussed
14:57:05 <fsasaki> .. there are some charmod requirements about content
14:57:22 <fsasaki> .. e.g. the 1:1: correspondence of sound and characters, which we will fix
14:57:38 <fsasaki> maxf: another question:
14:57:49 <fsasaki> .. if the first version of our spec did not mandate charmod
14:57:54 <fsasaki> .. and if we mandate it now
14:58:03 <fsasaki> .. do we loose backward compatibility?
14:58:18 <fsasaki> francois: I don't know the spec to give an answer
14:58:32 <fsasaki> maxf: it is more a question of QA
14:58:43 <fsasaki> francois: you are 95% covered because of XML
14:58:52 <fsasaki> maxf: yes, but what about the 5% left?
14:59:37 <fsasaki> .. e.g. the two syntaxes for character escapes
14:59:56 <fsasaki> francois: but that does not break XML
15:00:23 <fsasaki> .. you encourage people not to break a SHOULD, but if you have good reasons, it is o.k.
15:00:47 <fsasaki> .. C010:
15:01:09 <fsasaki> .. if there is a problem about the term "character" in your spec, it should be fixed
15:01:26 <fsasaki> .. I don't know where voice xml breaks, but can't you fix it?
15:01:33 <fsasaki> maxf: voice xml 2.1 is a diff spec
15:01:40 <fsasaki> .. it adds features on top of 2.0
15:01:49 <fsasaki> .. we don't indent to change 2.0
15:02:12 <fsasaki> francois: but you could add a definition saying what you mean by character in the 2.1 diff
15:02:26 <fsasaki> .. if it is localized in a section, it is possible
15:03:08 <r12a> zakim, unmute ishida
15:03:09 <Zakim> Ishida should no longer be muted
15:03:14 <fsasaki> maxf: we talk sometimes about DTMS "characters", not XML characters
15:03:30 <fsasaki> francois: to me DTMS is tones, not characters
15:03:37 <fsasaki> maxf: there is a mapping to characters
15:03:41 <Kazuyuki> s/DTMS/DTMF/
15:03:53 <Kazuyuki> :)
15:04:02 <fsasaki> richard: as tones are mapped to characters
15:04:10 <fsasaki> .. that are unicode characters, right?
15:04:19 <fsasaki> maxf: in the voice xml spec, there is no mapping defined
15:04:35 <fsasaki> .. looking for the part of the spec which talks about it
15:04:41 <maxf> <choice dtmf="1" next="http://www.sports.example.com/vxml/start.vxml"/>
15:04:41 <maxf>   <choice dtmf="2" next="http://www.weather.example.com/intro.vxml"/>
15:04:42 <maxf>   <choice dtmf="3" next="http://www.stargazer.example.com/astronews.vxml"/>
15:05:21 <fsasaki> francois: what is dtmf=1?
15:05:42 <fsasaki> maxf: it says "the DTMF recognizer has received a character '1"
15:05:48 <fsasaki> francois: so there is a mapping
15:06:08 <fsasaki> maxf: but the DTMF document don't say that, they are not explicit about it
15:06:35 <fsasaki> richard: characters like "1" and "2" exist in Unicode, so there is a problem in Unicode
15:06:58 <fsasaki> maxf: the problem is our wrong use of "character"
15:07:28 <fsasaki> francois: so these are XML characters to match these characters
15:07:49 <fsasaki> .. so the DTMF recognizer does the mapping, it is outside the voice xml spec
15:08:01 <fsasaki> .. if there is a different DTMF version, the spec would just use that
15:08:08 <fsasaki> maxf: yes
15:08:16 <fsasaki> francois: that's no conflict with charmod
15:08:30 <fsasaki> maxf: do you recommend that we change our wording?
15:08:54 <fsasaki> francois: if you write s.t. like "if we say characters, we mean XML characters"
15:08:59 <fsasaki> maxf: o.k.
15:09:15 <fsasaki> francois: C014
15:09:21 <fsasaki> .. no conflict as well
15:09:32 <fsasaki> .. so all is left is C001
15:10:10 <Zakim> -Mary
15:10:11 <Zakim> -fyergeau
15:10:19 <Zakim> -Ishida
15:10:31 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
15:10:51 <Zakim> -Felix
15:11:26 <fsasaki> rrsagent, make log public
15:11:39 <Zakim> -MaxF
15:11:40 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
15:11:41 <Zakim> Attendees were Felix, [IPcaller], fyergeau, Ishida, [IBM], Mary, Maxf, Kazuyuki
15:12:11 <fsasaki> present: Felix, Francois, Kazuyuki, Mary, Max, Richard
15:12:50 <fsasaki> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:12:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-minutes.html fsasaki
15:13:13 <maxf> maxf has left #i18ncore
15:14:50 <Kazuyuki> thank you so much for your clarification ;-)
15:14:56 <fsasaki> np
15:15:00 <fsasaki> I hope it helped
15:15:16 <Kazuyuki> very much
15:16:11 <Kazuyuki> bye
15:16:15 <fsasaki> bye
15:16:38 <Kazuyuki> Kazuyuki has left #i18ncore
15:23:16 <r12a> r12a has left #i18ncore
15:26:59 <fsasaki> zakim, bye
15:26:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18ncore
15:27:03 <fsasaki> rrsagent, bye
15:27:03 <RRSAgent> I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-actions.rdf :
15:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: all to look at the TAG issue (DONE) [1]
15:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-06-37
15:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: everybody to look at the mail about charmod+voicexml (DONE) [2]
15:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-07-47
15:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix ask Max if he can join next week's i18n core call (DONE) [3]
15:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-08-07
15:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix to write an IRI implementation report (DONE) [4]
15:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-08-51
15:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix to find out where the tests from Martin are located (ONGOING) [5]
15:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-09-02
15:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: felix to go trough LTLI within the next 2 weeks (DONE) [6]
15:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-10-01
15:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Francois to build a current issues list on charmod (PENDING) [7]
15:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-10-14
15:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mary to look at WS Addr  (DONE) [8]
15:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-10-24
15:27:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mary will make the updates discussed in Mandelieu on ws i18n (ONGOING) [9]
15:27:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/11-i18ncore-irc#T14-11-40
15:27:13 <fsasaki> fsasaki has left #i18ncore